MD, PhD, MAE, FMedSci, FRSB, FRCP, FRCPEd.

The following is a guest post by Preston H. Long. It is an excerpt from his new book entitled Chiropractic Abuse—A Chiropractor’s Lament’. Preston H. Long is a licensed chiropractor from Arizona. His professional career has spanned nearly 30 years. In addition to treating patients, he has testified at about 200 trials, performed more than 10,000 chiropractic case evaluations, and served as a consultant to several law enforcement agencies. He is also an associate professor at Bryan University, where he teaches in the master’s program in applied health informatics. His new book is one of the very few that provides an inside criticism of chiropractic. It is well worth reading, in my view.

Have you ever consulted a chiropractor? Are you thinking about seeing one? Do you care whether your tax and health-care dollars are spent on worthless treatment? If your answer to any of these questions is yes, there are certain things you should know.

 

1. Chiropractic theory and practice are not based on the body of knowledge related to health, disease, and health care that has been widely accepted by the scientific community.

Most chiropractors believe that spinal problems, which they call “subluxations,” cause ill health and that fixing them by “adjusting” the spine will promote and restore health. The extent of this belief varies from chiropractor to chiropractor. Some believe that subluxations are the primary cause of ill health; others consider them an underlying cause. Only a small percentage (including me) reject these notions and align their beliefs and practices with those of the science-based medical community. The ramifications and consequences of subluxation theory will be discussed in detail throughout this book.

 

2. Many chiropractors promise too much.

The most common forms of treatment administered by chiropractors are spinal manipulation and passive physiotherapy measures such as heat, ultrasound, massage, and electrical muscle stimulation. These modalities can be useful in managing certain problems of muscles and bones, but they have little, if any, use against the vast majority of diseases. But chiropractors who believe that “subluxations” cause ill health claim that spinal adjustments promote general health and enable patients to recover from a wide range of diseases. The illustrations below reflect these beliefs. The one to the left is part of a poster that promotes the notion that periodic spinal “adjustments” are a cornerstone of good health. The other is a patient handout that improperly relates “subluxations” to a wide range of ailments that spinal adjustments supposedly can help. Some charts of this type have listed more than 100 diseases and conditions, including allergies, appendicitis, anemia, crossed eyes, deafness, gallbladder problems, hernias, and pneumonia.

A 2008 survey found that exaggeration is common among chiropractic Web sites. The researchers looked at the Web sites of 200 chiropractors and 9 chiropractic associations in Australia, Canada, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, and the United States. Each site was examined for claims suggesting that chiropractic treatment was appropriate for asthma, colic, ear infection/earache/otitis media, neck pain, whiplash, headache/migraine, and lower back pain. The study found that 95% of the surveyed sites made unsubstantiated claims for at least one of these conditions and 38% made unsubstantiated claims for all of them.1 False promises can have dire consequences to the unsuspecting.

 

3. Our education is vastly inferior to that of medical doctors.

I rarely encountered sick patients in my school clinic. Most of my “patients” were friends, students, and an occasional person who presented to the student clinic for inexpensive chiropractic care. Most had nothing really wrong with them. In order to graduate, chiropractic college students are required to treat a minimum number of people. To reach their number, some resort to paying people (including prostitutes) to visit them at the college’s clinic.2

Students also encounter a very narrow range of conditions, most related to aches and pains. Real medical education involves contact with thousands of patients with a wide variety of problems, including many severe enough to require hospitalization. Most chiropractic students see patients during two clinical years in chiropractic college. Medical students also average two clinical years, but they see many more patients and nearly all medical doctors have an additional three to five years of specialty training before they enter practice.

Chiropractic’s minimum educational standards are quite low. In 2007, chiropractic students were required to evaluate and manage only 15 patients in order to graduate. Chiropractic’s accreditation agency ordered this number to increase to 35 by the fall of 2011. However, only 10 of the 35 must be live patients (eight of whom are not students or their family members)! For the remaining cases, students are permitted to “assist, observe, or participate in live, paper-based, computer-based, distance learning, or other reasonable alternative.”3 In contrast, medical students see thousands of patients.

Former National Council Against Health Fraud President William T. Jarvis, Ph.D., has noted that chiropractic school prepares its students to practice “conversational medicine”—where they glibly use medical words but lack the knowledge or experience to deal appropriately with the vast majority of health problems.4 Dr. Stephen Barrett reported a fascinating example of this which occurred when he visited a chiropractor for research purposes. When Barrett mentioned that he was recovering from an attack of vertigo (dizziness), the chiropractor quickly rattled off a textbook-like list of all the possible causes. But instead of obtaining a proper history and conducting tests to pinpoint a diagnosis, he x-rayed Dr. Barrett’s neck and recommended a one-year course of manipulations to make his neck more curved. The medical diagnosis, which had been appropriately made elsewhere, was a viral infection that cleared up spontaneously in about ten days.5

 

4. Our legitimate scope is actually very narrow.

Appropriate chiropractic treatment is relevant only to a narrow range of ailments, nearly all related to musculoskeletal problems. But some chiropractors assert that they can influence the course of nearly everything. Some even offer adjustments to farm animals and family pets.

 

5. Very little of what chiropractors do has been studied.

Although chiropractic has been around since 1895,  little of what we do meets the scientific standard through solid research. Chiropractic apologists try to sound scientific to counter their detractors, but very little research actually supports what chiropractors do.

 

6. Unless your diagnosis is obvious, it’s best to get diagnosed elsewhere.

During my work as an independent examiner, I have encountered many patients whose chiropractor missed readily apparent diagnoses and rendered inappropriate treatment for long periods of time. Chiropractors lack the depth of training available to medical doctors. For that reason, except for minor injuries, it is usually better to seek medical diagnosis first.

 

7. We offer lots of unnecessary services.

Many chiropractors, particularly those who find “subluxations” in everyone, routinely advise patients to come for many months, years, and even for their lifetime. Practice-builders teach how to persuade people they need “maintenance care” long after their original problem has resolved. In line with this, many chiropractors offer “discounts” to patients who pay in advance and sign a contract committing them for 50 to 100 treatments.  And “chiropractic pediatric specialists” advise periodic examinations and spinal adjustments from early infancy onward. (This has been aptly described as “womb to tomb” care.) Greed is not the only factor involved in overtreatment. Many who advise periodic adjustments are “true believers.” In chiropractic school, one of my classmates actually adjusted his newborn son while the umbilical cord was still attached. Another student had the school radiology department take seven x-rays of his son’s neck to look for “subluxations” presumably acquired during the birth process. The topic of unnecessary care is discussed further in Chapter 8.

 

8. “Cracking” of the spine doesn’t mean much.

Spinal manipulation usually produces a “popping” or “cracking” sound similar to what occurs when you crack your knuckles. Both are due to a phenomenon called cavitation, which occurs when there is a sudden decrease in joint pressure brought on by the manipulation. That allows dissolved gasses in the joint fluid to be released into the joint itself. Chiropractors sometimes state that the noise means that something therapeutic has taken place. However, the noise has no health-related significance and does not indicate that anything has been realigned. It simply means that gas was allowed to escape under less pressure than normal. Knuckles do not “go back into place” when you crack them, and neither do spinal bones.

 

9. If the first few visits don’t help you, more treatment probably won’t help.

I used to tell my patients “three and through.” If we did not see significant objective improvement in three visits, it was time to move on.

 

10. We take too many x-rays.

No test should be done unless it is likely to provide information that will influence clinical management of the patient. X-ray examinations are appropriate when a fracture, tumor, infection, or neurological defect is suspected. But they are not needed for evaluating simple mechanical-type strains, such as back or neck pain that develops after lifting a heavy object.

The average number of x-rays taken during the first visit by chiropractors whose records I have been asked to review has been about eleven. Those records were sent to me because an insurance company had flagged them for investigation into excessive billing, so this number of x-rays is much higher than average. But many chiropractors take at least a few x-rays of everyone who walks through their door.

There are two main reasons why chiropractors take more x-rays than are medically necessary. One is easy money. It costs about 35¢ to buy an 8- x 10-inch film, for which they typically charge $40. In chiropractic, the spine encompasses five areas: the neck, mid-back, low-back, pelvic, and sacral regions. That means five separate regions to bill for—typically three to seven views of the neck, two to six for the low back, and two for each of the rest. So eleven x-ray films would net the chiropractor over $400 for just few minutes of work. In many accident cases I have reviewed, the fact that patients had adequate x-ray examinations in a hospital emergency department to rule out fractures did not deter the chiropractor from unnecessarily repeating these exams.

Chiropractors also use x-ray examinations inappropriately for marketing purposes. Chiropractors who do this point to various things on the films that they interpret as (a) subluxations, (b) not enough spinal curvature, (c) too much spinal curvature, and/or (d) “spinal decay,” all of which supposedly call for long courses of adjustments with periodic x-ray re-checks to supposedly assess progress. In addition to wasting money, unnecessary x-rays entail unnecessary exposure to the risks of ionizing radiation.

 

11. Research on spinal manipulation does not reflect what takes place in most chiropractic offices.

Research studies that look at spinal manipulation are generally done under strict protocols that protect patients from harm. The results reflect what happens when manipulation is done on patients who are appropriately screened—usually by medical teams that exclude people with conditions that would make manipulation dangerous. The results do not reflect what typically happens when patients select chiropractors on their own. The chiropractic marketplace is a mess because most chiropractors ignore research findings and subject their patients to procedures that are unnecessary and/or senseless.

 

12. Neck manipulation is potentially dangerous.

Certain types of chiropractic neck manipulation can damage neck arteries and cause a stroke. Chiropractors claim that the risk is trivial, but they have made no systematic effort to actually measure it. Chapter 9 covers this topic in detail.

 

13. Most chiropractors don’t know much about nutrition.

Chiropractors learn little about clinical nutrition during their schooling. Many offer what they describe as “nutrition counseling.” But this typically consists of superficial advice about eating less fat and various schemes to sell you supplements that are high-priced and unnecessary.

 

14.  Chiropractors who sell vitamins charge much more than it costs them.

Chiropractors who sell vitamins typically recommend them unnecessarily and charge two to three times what they pay for them. Some chiropractors center their practice around selling vitamins to patients. Their recommendations are based on hair analysis, live blood analysis, applied kinesiology muscle-testing or other quack tests that will be discussed later in this book. Patients who are victimized this way typically pay several dollars a day and are encouraged to stay on the products indefinitely. In one case I investigated, an Arizona chiropractor advised an 80+-year-old grandma to charge more than $10,000 for vitamins to her credit cards to avoid an impending stroke that he had diagnosed by testing a sample of her pubic hair. No hair test can determine that a stroke is imminent or show that dietary supplements are needed. Doctors who evaluated the woman at the Mayo Clinic found no evidence to support the chiropractor’s assessment.

 

15. Chiropractors have no business treating young children.

The pediatric training chiropractors receive during their schooling is skimpy and based mainly on reading. Students see few children and get little or no experience in diagnosing or following the course of the vast majority of childhood ailments. Moreover, spinal adjustment has no proven effectiveness against childhood diseases. Some adolescents with spinal stiffness might benefit from manipulation, but most will recover without treatment. Chiropractors who claim to practice “chiropractic pediatrics” typically aim to adjust spines from birth onward and are likely to oppose immunization. Some chiropractors claim they can reverse or lessen the spinal curvature of scoliosis, but there is no scientific evidence that spinal manipulation can do this.6

 

16. The fact that patients swear by us does not mean we are actually helping them.

Satisfaction is not the same thing as effectiveness. Many people who believe they have been helped had conditions that would have resolved without treatment. Some have had treatment for dangers that did not exist but were said by the chiropractor to be imminent. Many chiropractors actually take courses on how to trick patients to believe in them. (See Chapter 8)

 

17. Insurance companies don’t want to pay for chiropractic care.

Chiropractors love to brag that their services are covered by Medicare and most insurance companies. However, this coverage has been achieved though political action rather than scientific merit. I have never encountered an insurance company that would reimburse for chiropractic if not forced to do so by state laws. The political pressure to mandate chiropractic coverage comes from chiropractors, of course, but it also comes from the patients whom they have brainwashed.

 

18. Lots of chiropractors do really strange things.

The chiropractic profession seems to attract people who are prone to believe in strange things. One I know of does “aura adjustments” to treat people’s “bruised karma.” Another rents out a large crystal to other chiropractors so they can “recharge” their own (smaller) crystals. Another claims to get advice by “channeling” a 15th Century Scottish physician. Another claimed to “balance a woman’s harmonics” by inserting his thumb into her vagina and his index finger into her anus. Another treated cancer with an orange light that was mounted in a wooden box. Another did rectal exams on all his female patients. Even though such exams are outside the legitimate scope of chiropractic, he also videotaped them so that if his bills for this service were questioned, he could prove that he had actually performed what he billed for.

 

19. Don’t expect our licensing boards to protect you.

Many chiropractors who serve on chiropractic licensing boards harbor the same misbeliefs that are rampant among their colleagues. This means, for example, that most boards are unlikely to discipline chiropractors for diagnosing and treating imaginary “subluxations.”

 

20. The media rarely look at what we do wrong.

The media rarely if ever address chiropractic nonsense. Reporting on chiropractic is complicated because chiropractors vary so much in what they do. (In fact, a very astute observer once wrote that “for every chiropractor, there is an equal and opposite chiropractor.”) Consumer Reports published superb exposés in 1975 and 1994, but no other print outlet has done so in the past 35 years. This lack of information is the main reason I have written this book.

 

References

1.    Ernst E, Gilbey A. Chiropractic claims in the English-speaking world. New Zealand Medical Journal 123:36–44, 2010.

2.    Bernet J. Affidavit, April 12, 1996. Posted to Chirobase Web site.

3.    Standards for Doctor of Chiropractic Programs and Requirements for Institutional Status. Council on Chiropractic Education, Scottsdale, Arizona, Jan 2007.

4.    Jarvis WT. Why becoming a chiropractor may be risky. Chirobase Web site, October 5, 1999.

5.    Barrett S. My visit to a “straight” chiropractor. Quackwatch Web site, Oct 10, 2002.

6.    Romano M, Negrini S. Manual therapy as a conservative treatment for idiopathic scoliosis: A review. Scoliosis 3:2, 2008.

1,384 Responses to Twenty Things Most Chiropractors Won’t Tell You

  • I have just started reading Preston Long’s book and, having read most skeptical books on chiropractic, I have to say that I’m particularly shocked by this one. I’ve only got as far as p.15, but have already read about rampant cheating in exams and am now learning about the frightening standards of teaching at the chiropractic college where where Preston Long studied. One small example of what he was confronted with:

    Quote:
    The head of the Biology Department used the word “pacific” to refer to specific microorganisms.

    This book is an absolute must buy for anyone wanting an in-depth look behind the chiropractic facade.

    • Thanks for the remarks Blue Wde. It seems you are the only one here that has bothered to read the book before pronouncing on it’s bias. Good for you.

      All my best,

      Preston

      • I will be honest in that I have not read your book, so cannot speak on it, however commenting on what I read on this website, I feel bad for you. The school you’ve gone to (I can only hope it doesn’t exist right now) has obviously not given you a great education, and I feel bad you had this experience. I finished chiropractic scool not too long ago, and I saw over 500 different patient in my clinic, with many different diseases, along with chronic low back pain, or neck pain. I would say that over 50% of them have gotten no help from their medical doctors, when it comes to their pain and expected very litle from me, since they’ve been disappointed with our healthcare system. Furthermore, I had a choice of going to medical school, but lost 2 grandparents because of medical mistakes, and decided that is not what I want to do. I think it is very low of you to attack a profession which focuses on helping people and bringing them back to health. I am in no shape or form denying the need for the medical profession, and if I am bleeding internally, or having a stroke I would sure hope I will be taken to the ER and not the chiropractor’s office, however we are not inferior in treating many of the diseases that MD’s treat, and for many of us newly graduated doctors this is not accomplished through an adjestment, but functional medicine.

        • @Lina

          Just one question: with all that success you claim for chiropractic, why is there no good research evidence to substantiate these claims?

          • Let me answer that for you in her absence. “Crickets chirping”

          • Exactly which claims are you speaking of? You are painting the whole profession with one brush. Many of the claims are very well researched in peer reviewed journals such as JMPT.

          • Tyler said:

            Exactly which claims are you speaking of?

            The claims Lina made.

            You are painting the whole profession with one brush.

            Quite possibly. But the paucity of good evidence is not my problem, is it?

            Many of the claims are very well researched in peer reviewed journals such as JMPT.

            Perhaps you could highlight the evidence you believe to be the most compelling?

          • This book is EXCELLENT! I used it as a reference for a report on ‘Modern Day Quackery’, which included chiropractic, acupuncture, reflexology, Reiki, etc. As the daughter of a science professor and a CN3-RN that supervised our hospital, I grew up with a healthy understanding of medical practices and hearing about patients that were seriously damaged due to being treated by the local chiropractor for herniated discs, degenerative disc disorder, osteoarthritis, Rheumatoid Arthritis, etc. and were brought into the hospital needing extensive treatment. I can remember my mother being furious at the elderly patients who had been ‘robbed’ because they placed their trust in what she considered a con artist.
            Before I became a psychologist, I was in advertising and marketing and chiropractors spent tons of money advertising. While it added to my commissions, it just reaffirmed that a good doctor doesn’t have to advertise for patients. I also make it a point to never have medical services performed in malls, indoor or strip malls are where you find all these types of ‘healers’. I have told many friends that if they don’t want to see a medical doctor, just throw the money down a toilet. It will have a safer outcome than being ‘adjusted!

          • I have researched lots of medical practices. Including working in emergency rooms, Osteopathic dr, Chiros…

            What research do you need when you can actually see it happen? I once saw a chiro’s patient with a couple ribs out. I was able to feel the difference of before and after adjustments. I have also seen before and after x-rays. The chiro simply moved (adjusted) the ribs back into place. Why is that so hard to understand?

            You guys are being ridiculous. What’s your motive?

          • @blakeb
            I once saw a fellow pull a rabbit out of an empty hat.
            Your proof is…?

            BTW. You don’t need a chiropractor for rib dislocation, something physiotherapists and ER physicians usually take care of.

          • Because no 2 people will have the exact same ailment! Your opinion is wrong to encompass all chiropractors into your bubble. B-(

          • Whose comment are you responding to, Tiffany?

          • There is plenty of good research, search the PubMed literature
            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15319761
            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21640251
            http://chiromt.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12998-015-0075-6
            http://www.chiro.org/Wilk/#Opinion_and_Order
            http://www.nytimes.com/1987/08/29/us/us-judge-finds-medical-group-conspired-against-chiropractors.html
            Spinal manipulation provides modest short- and long-term relief of back pain, improves psychological well-being, and increases functioning.2,30 The benefits derived are not dependent on the type of training of the manipulator because osteopathic and chiropractic outcomes appear to be similar
            http://www.aafp.org/afp/2009/0615/p1067.html

          • @Valerie
            Have you ever heard of the term “Cherry Picking” ? We can all find articles and publications to support whatever we like. As an example, almost half of all that is written about homeopathy is “positive” even if homeopathy is certifiable nonsense. If you only pick from the side you like, you can make endless, seemingly convincing lists of “evidence” like the one you put up.
            If you want to convince this crowd you will have to look at the totality of evidence. That has been done many times over and the result… negative. Why do you think the British chiropractic association was unable to provide evidence that Simon Singh was wrong in 2008? Because the evidence is not available. Instead of writing a long thesis on the matter I’ll simply link to this starting point where you can find a lot of information and go from there with your fact-finding about the true nature of DD Palmer’s heritage. Not that I think a Florida chiropractor will be persuaded to leave the lucrative business, but at least the audience can form their own opinion and spare themselves the cost of chiropractic thumping and clicking theatricals.

            And: http://www.csicop.org/si/show/why_bogus_therapies_seem_to_work/

          • I have not read your book nor do I have to. You have something to sell and you are pushing an old and very tired proposition. Chiropractic is bogus. Ya heard that before. You even quote the chirohater Jarivs who has been shown to be a quack himself. He has nothing to sell but his antichrio rhetoric. Shame on you for even using anything he says. If that is your type of research it is another reason I don’t have to read your book.
            I am a third generation DC who in my sixties would no change to another profession nor would I want doctors of Chiropractic to add drugs to their treatment protocols.
            My grandfather was threatened with jail for practicing medicine without a license. We have been push outside the “mainstream” of healthcare by those that could not get us to sell their drugs or agree in the gene theory of disease. Science now is proving us right. Our current healthcare system is all about treating chronic disease not about improving function. A great result is about making you numb not helping you function optimally. Think about it. The current system of healthcare is stuck back in the gene model of disease treatment. Where is your book on that one bro.
            For those that read this with any type of an open mind chew on this. If what he says is totally true why is the profession still in existence? In the USA if you make a poor product consumers catch on and the product or service goes out of buninsess. That is unles it is supported by the gov’t and insurance and that is what we currently have. If Chiros are such bozo’s and rotten liars how have they fooled the public for all these years? Maybe they are super conmen and women who are the best in the world at deceiving themselves and the public. In the state I am from Wisconsin, a study was performed by the U of Wisconsin where DC’s were found to be just as beneficial as their MD counterparts and people liked them better for they felt DC’s talked to them and were more personal. For many many years why has the consumer paid out of his pocket to get this quackery? Yes, the amount of money spent on alternative healthcare was equal to or greater then what wa spent on primary care. And that care was covered by ins. Or basically free. Why? Maybe it was that the uneducated were being duped. Billions of dollars on marketing. Nope, The demographic for a Chiro patient is a female with a masters degree. It used to be the blue collar guy but he now is being funneled to use only medical care due to financial reasons. The more educated have more expendable income so they read study and seek alternatives to the seriously dangerous failed medical system we have. They have read that the poor and blue collar who use the current system have horrendous results and they being more educated chose to avoid the “real” quacks.”
            Your information is so old and out of date is it pathetic. It shows that you are an old fart like me but one that has a reverence for a failed system of healthcare. For those that are still reading this take a look at young Dr. Chestnut’s information on the evidence basis for Chiropractic. It could change your life.
            Before I close. If chiropractic is so terrible and bogus then how did a dope like me build eight clinics teaching and training dozens of docs, and most recently why would I be asked to start a school in another country to teach what I do. Yes, asked by medical doctors who are my patients. They are not effected by big pharma they are too poor. They aren’t concerned about your petty self serving whine about the profession. They only know what they have seen and experienced just like consumers here in the states. They see it work and change lives over and over and they want it just like consumers around the world for even China has now put it into their healthcare system.
            Why would it be spreading around the world friend?
            Are there people out there who cannot be trusted to help us? Yes. Is this book one of them? Yes. It does not take us toward the light but away from it. Read study and then go meet a young smart doctor of chiropractic, I just hired two this past year. They care deeply about their patients and are dedicating their lives to the service of others. If you smell a salesman or women run for there are plenty of cons in every profession and it is always up to us to sort them out. (Just heard of one in the dental profession. One dentist says it will cost thousands the next fixes it right on the spot for hundreds)
            This baby Chiropractic is a beauty and does not need to be thrown out with the proverbial bath water. If that were the case all of healthcare would have to be thrown out. Be the wise consumer and take this mans information with a grain of salt for it does represent the profession.

          • Please reference Wilk v American Medical Association. It’s the reason doctors can’t practice chiropractic without a license, and was upheld by the US Supreme Court. The AMA was even ordered to enclose the courts ruling in their publications, telling physicians that their medical knowledge and education was partial and bias, in a conspiracy to eliminate the Chiropractic practice (when of course, you would expect for med scholl training to be unbias).

            The presiding judge in the final ruling stated there was, “‘systematic, long-term wrongdoing and the long-term intent to destroy a licensed profession”, and it concluded that the conspiracy’s “lingering effects” still threatened the chiropractic practice, snd ordered injunctive relief. Thus, medical professionals are unqualified to practice chiropractic without a license.

            The courts response to the AMA’s defense of genuine care for patients;

            “The court finds the AMA failed to establish that throughout the relevant period (1966-1980) their concern for scientific methods in patient care had been objectively reasonable. The court also finds the AMA similarly failed to show it could not adequately have satisfied its concern for scientific method in patient care in a manner less restrictive of competition than a nationwide conspiracy to eliminate a licensed profession…. during the period that the Committee on Quackery was operating, there was plenty of material supporting the belief that all chiropractic was unscientific. But, according to the court (and this is unchallenged), at the same time, there was evidence before the Committee that chiropractic was effective, indeed more effective than the medical profession, in treating certain kinds of problems, such as back injuries. The Committee was also aware… some medical physicians believed chiropractic could be effective and that chiropractors were better trained to deal with musculoskeletal problems than most medical physicians. Moreover, the AMA’s own evidence suggested that at some point during its lengthy boycott, there was no longer an objectively reasonable concern that would support a boycott of the entire chiropractic profession. Also important was the fact that “it was very clear” that the Committee’s members did not have open minds to pro-chiropractic arguments or evidence.”

            The AMA’s present position regarding chiropractic is that it is ethical for a medical physician to professionally associate with chiropractors, if the physician believes that the association is in his patient’s best interests. The district court found that the AMA had not previously communicated this position to its membership.

          • Good job chris! I had wanted to use my “anecdotal” plumbing story to reach the same conclusion but it would have been met with such derision I kept it to myself….

          • @Chris
            Thanks for drawing our attention to this ruling. I followed your suggestion and looked it up. Among other things the judge said: “The plaintiffs clearly want more from the court. They want a judicial pronouncement that chiropractic is a valid, efficacious, even scientific health care service. I believe that the answer to that question can only be provided by a well designed, controlled, scientific study… No such study has ever been done. In the absence of such a study, the court is left to decide the issue on the basis of largely anecdotal evidence. I decline to pronounce chiropractic valid or invalid on anecdotal evidence.”
             
            What the judge ruled was that, in law, the AMA had been unreasonable in boycotting chiropractors. The trial proves not a thing for or against chiropractic. The case only goes to illuminate the difference between law and science.

          • Why don’t you read the journal of manipulative therapy? There are many studies there on manipulation.

          • Why don’t you read the journal of manipulative therapy? There are many studies there on manipulation.

            But are there any of good scientific quality?

          • @ Dr. M on Tuesday 13 September 2016 at 20:38

            “Why don’t you read the journal of manipulative therapy? There are many studies there on manipulation.”

            My guess is you are a chiro and you wouldn’t know research even if it poked you in the eye with a sharp stick.

          • I broke my back and neck. Five fractured vertebrae left me crippled. I was able to start walking again on my own after MD’s told me it would never happen. They wanted to operate on my spine and fuse my bones together. This would make me able to stand upright but could never twist left or right. I almost went for it if not for all the research I did first and reading all the horror stories of people who went through similar treatment. Through a combination of physical therapy and chiropractic care, not only am I able to stand upright, but I can play sports. I have since learned to snowboard, scuba dive, I now take ving tsun kung fu. I just ran 9 miles the other day. I am able to play with my two small children and lift them up. I can make love to my wife. I can do yard work. I can live a normal life. Chiropractic had no small role in this. Sure, I’m in pain most of the time, but I still have yet to have any surgeries done for my spine and it’s been ten years since I broke it. Just like any doctor, chiropractic alone didn’t do it. It was through my own research and vigilance that got me here. This is not to say that there are no bad chiropractors out there either. I’ve been adjusted thousands of times by dozens of chiropractors and half of them shouldn’t be practicing. The best chiropractors are the ones who use minimal equipment and can “feel” by touch that your spine is out of alignment. The chiropractors who are continuously educating themselves and their patients are usually the good ones. Also, chiropractic is not for everyone and definitely not for everything. Since going to the chiropractor, my sinus problems have disappeared, my digestive issues have gone away. Not all problems are cured by chiropractic, but many are caused by pinched nerves which when relieved, allow the body to heal itself. Chiropractic saved my life. Sure, I might still be alive without it, but I’d have no life.

          • @Jason J
            Your experience of recovery from serious, multiple injury is not unique. It is shared by thousands, who never paid chiropractors to pretend they did something useful for them while nature took its course. I dare guess that it was a chiropractor who convinced you that surgery would have been a bad choice, they are usually good at that sort of self-promotion 😉

          • > BTW. You don’t need a chiropractor for rib dislocation, something physiotherapists and ER physicians usually take care of.

            Physical therapists require a referral, which means getting an appointment with my regular doctor, which means waiting for a week, and then waiting to get an appointment with PT, which is usually a few days after that. Estimated total cost: $800.

            The urgent care doctor told me that it wasn’t possible to dislocate ribs, but he was perfectly willing to prescribe drugs for the pain. What they billed my insurance company: about $350 (I don’t use emergency rooms for non-emergency medical problems, and I hope that you don’t, either.)

            The chiropractor had it fixed in 30 seconds after she walked into the room. Total cost: $85, including parking

            Which one would you start with next time?

          • You know, don’t get OVERLY excited with rib dislocations. It sounds quite funky. SHOULDER dislocations are bound to happen because the ligaments stabilizing the joints are not very strong and tight, and the stability is increased by the bounding musculature primarily (and to a smaller extent, by the atmospheric pressure at sea level, however funny that may sound). Also, the ball-and-socket joint structure is such that dislocation may not self-resolve because the socket may obstruct the ball from slipping back.

            Ribs, on the other hand, are PLANE (GLIDING) joints, articulating with the spine and the sternum and the ligaments over there are VERY tight to constrain the range of motion. They are also supported by musculature interconnecting them (intercostal muscles), as well as connecting them to multiple other bony structures all around, even to your pelvis (iliocostalis etc.), but the ligaments are much more important stabilizers. A rib dislocation is NOT a very clear orthopedic diagnosis, it is extremely controversial in the discipline. I MIGHT accept that there is the possibility of a sprain on some of the costovertebral or sternocostal joint ligaments and some of the surrounding and supporting muscles go into spasm, altering movement patterns and possibly palpable as local bumps. A true rib dislocation around the joint area would entail SERIOUS nerve or vessel compressions, and sounds to me more likely to be attributable to a fracture. A quick scan of the literature shows VERY few recorded “so-called” rib dislocation cases, which almost exclusively accompany severe scoliosis.

            Furthermore, there are reasons for the complicated referral systems.
            -One of them is to seamlessly pipeline the course from diagnosis to treatment, and allow for consistent practice of one profession, without having to be an expert in another profession (an orthopedic diagnoses you, but they cannot be bothered with the hands-on approaches, or rehabilitate you – conversely, a physiotherapist knows what to do for which conditions, but they cannot be bothered to get into intricate diagnosis-making, it’s not their job anyway). So, specialization and within-specialty collaboration are some of the factors for effective medical practice.

            -Another one is giving the possibility to enforce accountability for anything performed. People are less prone to screw up when they follow strict protocols, both due to the protocols and due to the fear of being held accountable. In other words, it is for your own safety. The estimated total costs are so high PRECISELY because it takes a huge amount of resources to study, create protocols, perform trials, ascertain the evidence and instate the reliable methodologies followed. Couple that with the countless man-years it takes to become a qualified health professional, such as in the various subdomains of medicine. I know it sounds like a lot, but, really, that’s how it goes.

            So, “the chiropractor fixed it in 30 seconds” sounds pretty dangerous to me. I’d suggest you get an X-ray to make sure everything is still ok. Also, as I read on some comment above, the chiropractor “moved the ribs into place” is NOT a sound description because just moving something into position does not make the ligaments strong again. And the reason it cost you only 85$ is because nobody worries what happens next.

            Apart from ALL of the above, I do share your worry about the increased costs and time-consuming bureaucracy involved. More often than not, healthcare is plagued with delays and increased costs for a variety of reasons. Also, I understand your repulsion for the procedures and your preference of the chiropractor because of these reasons. Those reasons, however, are not the matter of discussion right here.

            What can I say, I wish you never get any musculoskeletal trouble anymore.
            Be well.

          • Which one would you start with next time?

            The urgent care doctor. At least, he/she didn’t sleep during her/his anatomy lessons.

          • In Lina’s defense…Why? Because we are busy helping people and are normally small businesses with case studies which are quickly dismissed because there are not enough people in the study by people like you and the medical profession. We are not a large hospital or research center. There are people being cut open unnecessarily based on research in the medical community everyday. Have you looked at the stats? Not only do most chiropractors take more credits than medical doctors but we continue to learn about nutrition and a plethora of other natural means of healing unlike most MD’s. I think I read that you have a Chiropractic degree…if you are not satisfied with your training, then maybe your school was inferior. Mine was not. also, we are not the only ones who state that nerves are attached to organs and can help facilitate the health of the human anatomy and physiology. Many books by MDs, PTs etc. have stated the same (and no, I am not going to site the books for you).

            Oh, and maybe there were crickets chirping because Lina left your site and moved on with her life.

          • Wyatt, it is sad that you are so wishful that you are totally disconnected from reality. Doctors don’t have it hard with the people… It’s the profession they are after. Chiropractic is based on unsound principles, far from reality, and is also decorated with desperate attempts to disguise some doctorship. The lack of evidence is usually because chiropractors are very busy believing that they help people. Of course, entertainment is nice and, in that sense, chiropractors do help people by providing amusement.

            The fact that chiropractors know that nerves are connected to organs just makes them impostors with a bit of knowledge. In that sense, so-called chiro-schools can be compared with respect to quality. The best ones are those that incorporate as much medical knowledge as possible alongside bogus principles, in the most seamless way. This is excellent in terms of policy and works wonders for the profession. Graduates can never tell what is right and what is wrong in all that brain-washing, and clients and patients become easy prey to all the fancy stuff and jargon. Patients love layspeak, they prefer explanations that are easy to understand, so, out-of-place vertebrae sounds simple enough as a cause of bad health. Chiropractors trick patients, school tricks chiropractors, profession tricks everyone.

            Make-believe healing techniques, with some anatomy for credibility. Lament alright! Hail the bogus nerve (connects the vertebrae to visceral organs… in chiro-world)!

          • If I may interject here, in my experience with chiropractors none of what you said is true! I know when my body is in alignment and when it is not. Medical doctors a lot of time will say surgery is the answer, smh!! My chiropractor has freedom me from pain over and over! He is very knowledgeable and experienced and doesn’t claim to know everything!! He eats healthy and continually does research! I am thankful for this profession. Instead of basing the profession it might do you some good to do your own research. Feel free to use this testimony.

          • Donna Fretwell said:

            Feel free to use this testimony.

            Ah. I see your problem.

          • There is evidence and research studies that have been done. All show positive results. Rand study for one.

          • James Alexander said:

            There is evidence and research studies that have been done. All show positive results. Rand study for one.

            All show positive results, you say….

        • Lina,

          I can’t agree with you more. Preston appears to have a sense of false premise about chiropractic, which ironically is his own profession (which school did receive his degree 30 +years ago? A lot has changed since then!). I feel sorry for him. As far a strokes are concerned the generalizations he has made are lucretius. Just ask the medical malpractice insurance industry to compare the average medical doctor’s malpractice insurance v. that of a doctor of chiropractic. Based on the research by the MIT (and other) actuarials, the chiropractic profession has the lowest malpractice rates compared to M.D.’s. I wonder why? There’s a good chance that the average driver in this country has higher rates of car insurance premiums per year than a doctor of chiropractic malpractice insurance. So by default we, as drivers, have a higher chance of hurting others v. a chiropractor. That should be an indicator for Preston Long D.C. and the ones fooled by his oxymoronic definition of chiropractic. The main question is WHY has he stayed in the profession this long? Why didn’t he become an M.D.? And WHY so much animosity towards his own profession. He sounds bitter. If he were to UNITE the profession (instead of trash talking about D.C.’s) then maybe he would be able to change the profession in a more positive way. I believe this is a very selfish person just trying to sell a controversial book. I agree, people question chiropractic as it is not mainstream medicine, but unsubstantiated comments by one of our own does not help. So it appears that he obviously had spent more time shooting down chiropractors, teaching as an assistant and too busy writing a book on his opinions rather than actually treating patient and improving there health of the public. I have to give it to him, though, he got my attention. But shame on him for his pessimistic small minded attitude that deviants from the true meaning of what it is to be a doctor of chiropractic. He just brings more problems than solutions to the image of chiropractic to the raw public.

          • All I can say is “Buyer Beware”

          • So many commenters feel bad for the author, feel sorry for the author, think the author must be ‘bitter’ etc, but only you have managed to come up with the brilliant and useful neologism ‘lucretius’. I imagine you conceived it as a portmanteau of ‘ludicrous’ and ‘lucrative’? Well played indeed Sir.

            Do you think it’s possible that real doctors need higher malpractice insurance because they *actually do things that work*? And because things that work carry risks? I don’t suppose you’d need a lot of insurance to hire out crystals and heal bruised auras…except when it involves rectal exams, of course. And maybe not even then if you’ve managed to brainwash your client sufficiently.

          • Not doing anything useful can easily be done without hurting someone… Well unless you count hurting their wallet…

          • Al said “Based on the research by the MIT (and other) actuarials, the chiropractic profession has the lowest malpractice rates compared to M.D.’s. I wonder why?”

            When a sham “treatment” does nothing, then it provides little basis to claim malpractice. Moreover, most patients are readily indoctrinated by the authoritative-sounding claims of a “doctor,” and unfamiliar with placebo effects or evidence.

            When I had my own back discomfort about 10 years ago, it was solved within a couple months by an ordinary doctor who gave me a sheet illustrating some good exercises, and by making a simple change in my computer workspace (shifting my mouse from my right to my left hand). By contrast, everyone I know who has gone to a doctor has received no cure for anything! Merely some claimed temporary relief for back pain which is never cured – making them lifelong patients and vulnerable to a host of other shams (e.g. homeopathic nonsense, vitamin supplements, herbal remedies, mysticism, and similar cr@p).

            Congratulations for people who speak against this sham profession. Since my family has some lifelong addicts of this “profession,” I was unwillingly exposed to it at a young age. As a completely symptom-free 10 year old, it was claimed that I might as well be “checked out” my my dad’s chiropractor. I was given a useless x-ray (useless because no person’s spine will ever look perfectly straight as they imply that it should), told about various imperfections in my spinal alignment (none of which were causing any symptoms, or known to be connected with any harmful problems), treated with the exact same joint-cracking procedure that gets applied to EVERYONE (regardless of individual differences), and felt a bit of soreness in my neck afterward – caused by the “manipulation” and not at all pre-existing. That a symptomless 10-year old would go through this strongly suggests that ABSOLUTELY EVERYONE who went into that office would be claimed to have some sort of problem, and thus have “need” for a lifelong series of regular “treatments.”

            Was this an unusual case? Everything I’ve seen since tells me “Not at all. Not in the slightest.” Indeed, my dad’s chiropractor was probably above average for not trying to sell his patients a bunch of other sham treatments, although his office did have a bunch of fringe pamphlets and “literature,” including anti-vaccination propaganda and charts claiming that specific parts of the spine are associated with a huge array of completely different illnesses. The “doctor” himself didn’t actively pitch such nonsense that I saw, and yet he promoted it through these pamphlets, books, and displays placed throughout the rooms and bathrooms of his office! I know that other family members, thanks to a different chiropractor, have gotten involved in useless homeopathic and questionable herbal “remedies.”

            If there truly are “Good chiropractors” then they need to crack down and distinguish themselves from the huge number of crackpots. I have heard that in Canada, something called “orthopractic” is mandated, in coordination with mainstream medicine, and limited only to evidence-based practices (which are pretty narrow in scope). I haven’t been able to verify this, but it sounds like the best direction to go in.

            Also, insurance companies need to stop supporting these nonsense practices. I suppose that there’s a statistical correlation between those who are into homeopathy and “natural remedies” and their being more health-conscious and thus eating more healthily, less likely to be overweight, etc. so perhaps the extent that chiropractic supports such things then I suppose the insurance companies must have calculated that when they subsidize chiropractic visits, there’s some sort of long-term benefit, but it certainly ain’t from the neck crackin’ and useless x-rays! Instead, it would just be a connection between those who are obsessed about their health, determined to do whatever they hear about which might help to preserve that health!

          • AArgh! Stupid interface….

            There were two huge errors that unwittingly appeared in my large post (above), as I tried to quickly type the whole message during a break at work. Any thoughtful person would probably be able to figure out what I’d meant to say, but I feel compelled to post this correction for the less-thoughtful persons who will use this as a basis to try rejecting everything I’d said. I’m used to sites that allow a person to verify and edit his/her own postings. Here, every wrong key or unconscious typing error looks like it will be preserved forever… 🙁

            What I had meant to say was
            “By contrast, everyone I know who has gone to a CHIROPRACTOR has received no cure for anything!”

            …and the phrase “my my” was supposed to read “by my”…

          • I’m a chiropractor. I agree. We don’t “cure” anything. But, we can effectively relieve symptoms (e.g., pain) associated with joint motion restrictions and/or scar tissue and adhesions (if properly trained in complementary soft tissue treatment methods).

            You can disparage chiropractic care as much as you would like. The reality is, more and more people are utilizing the services of chiropractors. And yes, there are some “weird” ones out there. I will admit. But there are many very good chiropractors who are ethical. Who use evidence based practices, and who truly desire to help people.

            I’ve treated over a thousand patients in my career so far, and 95+% of them have a very positive outcomes, most with a decrease or complete relief of pain, and a resolution of their neuromusculotskeletal condition.

            There is plenty of research. Just google it. I’ve already posted three research articles on this page, and I can find many many more.

            All of us are healthcare providers and we each have a role and a place. A chiropractor’s care is conservative by nature, and when someone goes to a good chiropractor, chances are they will experience positive outcomes. The same goes for medical doctors, physical therapists, you name it.

          • your 95% figure makes some sense – it is about the percentage of patients getting better without any treatment at all, I. e. natural history of back pain.

          • You might be right about the percentage that getter without any treatment at all. However, what i have found is that my care gets them better **faster.** I’m not saying they wouldn’t get better without my care, because quite honestly they most likely will. The difference is that when they come into my office to receive the type of care I provide, their condition is resolved more rapidly.

            As an example, during my consultation gathering information about their health history, and experience with their particular problem and condition, patients often tell me their pain has improved over (let’s say) a 4-6 month period. On the Visual Analog Scale, they have maybe improved from an 8 out of 10 pain level to a 6 out of 10.

            The problem is, that 6 out of 10 pain is still enough lingering pain and discomfort that they feel compelled to seek out care that will resolve their issue quicker. Going from an 8/10 VAS to a 6/10 VAS over a 4-6 month period is only a little relief over a very long period. We’ve all experienced pain like that. It’s not fun. It’s draining. It decreases productivity, let alone happiness.

            It is when they see me that their condition is almost completely resolved within anywhere from 3 to 10 sessions of chiropractic adjusting and myofascial therapy. I typically treat a person twice per week for about 2 to 5 weeks. In that time frame, it is common for my patients to see a 75% to 100% resolution of their condition.

            So, doing nothing they improve about 25% over a 4-6 month period with their body’s natural healing ability. But with my care, they improve another 50% to 100% over a 2 to 5 week period.

            To me, it’s very clear my treatments resolve their problem or condition much faster than doing nothing at all. When one is in pain, one wants out of pain now. Chiropractic care coupled with myofascial therapy is a highly effective method for speeding up the healing process and resolving a patient’s condition faster.

            Incidentally, many of my patients have gone to their General Practitioner only to be given cortisone injections that did not resolve the problem, and pain killers and other anti-inflammatories that did not resolve the problem. After seeking a Physical Therapist to take over where the General Practitioner could not prevail, patients see some improvement, and still see no improvement. It is at that point they seek out a chiropractor to receive hands-on care.

            Over and over I hear patients say, “I wish I would have just come to you first. I’ve never believed in chiropractic, or I was hesitant to see a chiropractor, but now I realize the care you provide works really well. Thank you sooooooo much for helping me.”

            And I send them on their way. I don’t tell them they need to continue to come and see me to stay healthy. I tell them, “eat well, exercise, keep your stress at a minimum and you should stay relatively healthy. In the future, if you have a problem and you cannot resolve it on your own after about a week or so, come in and see me asap, as I will likely be able to resolve it in a relatively shorter period of time.”

            And when I conclude that a problem is possibly more serious than I can handle, or I realize their condition may be out of my scope of practice, I recommend they see their General Practitioner, or to see an Orthopedist….depending upon my findings. In some cases, i might even recommend they go to the Emergency Room at a local hospital.

            Chiropractors have a role in healthcare and it’s a highly effective one.

            Cheers.

          • FASTER???
            how can you tell without a matched control group to compare? answer: you cannot!

          • My control group is the hundreds of patients I have seen and the common results and outcomes I continue to achieve. Over…and over…and over again.

            I’m not doing research though. It’s not my area of expertise, nor my interest. I’ll leave that to the researchers. And in the mean time, I’ll continue to help people get better FASTER by applying my highly effective methods.

            Many of us chiropractors are very good at what we do! Neuromusculoskeletal (i.e., nerves, muscles, tendons, ligaments, fascia) disorders is our expertise. PERIOD! 😉

            Cheers and all the best.

          • I can see that you are not a researcher – how else would you misinterpret experience for evidence?

          • Your ‘control group’, Jay: seriously?
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treatment_and_control_groups

          • @Jay
            Call for Dunning and Kruger!

          • It doesn’t matter how long ago he graduated. I graduated 10 yrs ago and he is absolutely correct on everything! You need to research, read up!

          • Wow, this is a lot of nonsense spread out to look like you have a worthwhile contribution.

          • @jay
            “And when I conclude that a problem is possibly more serious than I can handle, or I realize their condition may be out of my scope of practice, I recommend they see their General Practitioner, or to see an Orthopedist….depending upon my findings. In some cases, i might even recommend they go to the Emergency Room at a local hospital.”

            All this says to me is that chiropractic is inconsequential and pointless.

          • Al

            HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA……………………………”lucretius”??????

            I couldn’t bear to read the rest of your post after I saw that. You’re an idiot with zero credibility!

          • @Martin,
            “Al

            HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA……………………………”lucretius”??????

            I couldn’t bear to read the rest of your post after I saw that. You’re an idiot with zero credibility!”

            Please, have some respect? After all, Al is a Doctor of Chiropractic and should be treated with the respect that deserves. (lol)

          • NP here, while I do not buy into all the non scientific mumbo jumbo that some chiro schools (and a small but embarrassing part of nursing undergrad) push the simple fact is for some headaches, back, hip and leg pain I and many people I know feel better after an “adjustment” simple muscle relaxation, nerve pressure relief, placebo…. I don’t care I feel better, that’s what I payed for. Now crooks, people who do harmful treatments or bilk pts with crystals and such crap or dot bother o lean to recognize signs that someone needs real medical care, or worse know it and don’t refer that is criminal, so are nps and family docs that don’t refer when specialist are needed, or sell oils, concoctions etc.. bottom line if you find a chiro that charges a reasonable fee, and your problem is minor pain without recent trauma, or you have been evaluated and treated by ER or primary provider and it’s safe.. if it makes you feel better it is a good thing.

          • I have no dog in this fight and I am neither a chiropractor nor a medical doctor. I am a renal physiologist. That said, I make the following observation, but I reject the conclusion that some may make based on it in that I am assiduously trained to ignore anecdotal evidence; The proponents of chiropractic on this thread write so poorly that it is difficult to give them much credibility. Lina, your writing, vocabulary, grammar, syntax and spelling is simply atrocious. I have to wonder if it is a reflection of the underlying education you took into your chiropractic training.

            Sincerely,

            Kenneth A. Merena, Ph.D.

          • @Kevin NP

            Oh dear. You think chiropractic is fundamentally fine, but people who practise other forms of altmed are ‘crooks’? You are overlooking the hordes of people who ‘know’ things like crystal therapy work for them every time, while practitioners of such as chiropractic and other forms of altmed are quacks and criminals.

            “if it makes you feel better it is a good thing.” If only it were that simple.

        • Lina given you cannot spell ‘school’ and barely put a sentence together I do not believe for a second you could have gone to a real medical school. Unless you mean an online unregistered one.

          • Someone has a typo and you attack them as well as point out sentence structure? Good lord, what a ridiculous comment.

          • Doctors actually have some of the worst grammar.

          • jay , thank for your input. The way I see it there are a lots of good Doctor out there that are honest.
            There are many that is not. I have a primary Doctor that don’t want to listen at what I’m saying about how I feel. I have found out all they want to do is write me a prescription. hello. I also learn if they don’t hear you out ,concerning your health, they write the wrong medicine for you. I know for a fact.

        • ” chiropractic scool”

          Looks like that taught you well lol

        • My daughter-in-law worked for a chiropractor. All his employees were required to bring a friend , neighbor, relative every Friday for “adjustments”. No costs to the victims. He only billed their insurance companies. My son went one time to fulfill their requirements. (At his wife’s request) He was 26 years old and had no symptoms that a chiropractor might be of help. I was outraged and threatened to report him. My son asked me not to. His wife needed the job at the time to help financially with their three kids. Eventually she found another job.

        • The chiropractor I went to claimed nine out of ten patients he sees are helped by him. What else would you expect from him? What he doesn’t say is he starts you off with three “sessions” a week. With copay that can be expensive to those with limited income. Especially as the weeks go by. It took me 35 minutes the past two visits just to get into a room. He used a heated pad on my back for another twenty five minutes. Finally to another room for treatment. About three minutes worth. A quick massage with his hand held machine. And then the lowering of the table of my legs and hips a quick six or eight times. “See you Friday” as he went out the door to another room. Before he called me in he asked three waiting patients to follow him to three rooms. I believe he uses five rooms. I’m sure he did the heat treatment on all of them. That is a well known regular treatment used. One that I can do at home at my convenience. I now feel he overbooks patients and while you are lying on your back he is working on other patients. Obvious because he leaves the room for twenty five minutes. He does check in during that time to see if you are okay. Opening the door and peeking in. And then gone again. There were ten people including myself in the waiting room. The one other thing that one must realize is repeat business. If he “cured” you after several sessions he would lose patients…and income. You need to come in for regular maintenance.

        • After one treatment with a chiropractor – I now have extensive nerve damage in my neck and lower back. I have constant pain down both legs (which I didn’t have before). I cannot raise my left arm anymore… searing neck pain is common now where as I never had that before treatment. I find it hard to breath due to nerve damage in my thoracic spine. I initially went for sciatic pain.. whom the chiro claimed was curable. After one treatment I’m in such a mess… never again Lina is not facing reality.

          • You’re just some regular dude and you use the words thoracic spine lol. I’m not going to vouch for chiropractors but don’t assume regular doctors don’t cause a lot of harm. One time I had a skin condition in which I saw 4 different dermatologists in which I had three different diagnoses. And one of the medicines I was given for a diagnosis has caused permanent damage. Look up Kenalog injection class action lawsuit for the great drugs these medical doctors are passing out like candy.
            As for back pain (caused by that ****ING injection) I saw an MD spine specialist for and those idiots only pay attention to the discs. I told that guy that it wasn’t a disc, it was off to the side of my lower spine, but they don’t care about ligament damage. They’re only concentrated on discs. I saw another back specialist MD and this dude was a ****ING imbecile. He didn’t listen to anything I had to say when I first went in office and pitched his steroid into the joint treatment and when he finally finished (after 3 minutes or so)I told him I wasn’t there for spinal back pain but to help stop my back muscle from seizing up. Stopped this guy in his tracks, but he did say he could also give me a different shot for that lol. Seems to me doctors are good at setting broken bones and some surgeries but that’s about it.

          • @david (who is bereft of a capital),

            “You’re just some regular dude and you use the words thoracic spine lol.”

            Maybe it is because Greg knows where the injury is and refers to it properly? Is there a rule where only doctors can make such a reference? Does it mean I cannot refer to my laminectomy (over 30 years ago) as occurring at L5-S1?

            “Look up Kenalog injection class action lawsuit for the great drugs these medical doctors are passing out like candy.”

            I did and it is still being used. What is your point?

            “Seems to me doctors are good at setting broken bones and some surgeries but that’s about it.”

            So doctors and medicine don’t provide any other services useful for humankind? I wonder what people do for the myriad of cancers, infections, heart disease, stroke, kidney disease, burns, sporting injuries, eye disease, road accident trauma, abscesses, hip replacements, and the thousands of others? What, they go to chiropractors so God’s energy will fix all that?

            Perhaps though, you are really the troll you seem? (lo f@cking l)

          • To David (below): “thoracic spine” is a pretty common term — not exactly insider knowledge available only to trained neurosurgeons — so your implication that Greg therefore must be an MD trying to pass himself off as “a regular dude” comes across as slightly paranoid. I’m pretty sure I learned the term in 10th grade biology. Besides, even if Greg hadon’t learned it before, he certainly would have picked it up in his years of seeking treatment for his pain. Playing “gotcha!” just diminishes the power of your argument, David.

            To all: One of the greatest dangers of getting a diagnosis from a chiropractor is the possibility of missing something big. One of my mother’s students was a gymnast who went to a D.C. for back pain that everyone assumed was musculoskeletal and due to her training — no big deal. When the tumor on her spine was finally found by an MD after months of ineffective chiropractic treatment, it had grown much bigger. She graduated from high school in a wheelchair and died not long after that — a promising life cut short, possibly needlessly. There’s simply too much at stake to put your trust in someone who hasn’t been taught enough to do the job.

            Finally, I used to work in the admissions office of a small college that rented space to a chiropractic school. The building was ancient and decrepit, a dank, dark stone pile. Inside, there was no real library, no anatomy lab with cadavers that I could ever locate, and no active clinic, just a bunch of echoing rooms, some strewn with trash. Admission was pretty much open to anyone who applied. That’s “medical” training that would be scorned by much of the developing world, let alone in a major American city. You wouldn’t accept such substandard training in an MD’s office or an ER, so why would you accept it from any other health provider??

        • I don’t like the fact that most chiros call themselves DR when they have done nothing to earn the title. It could also confuse people into believing they are more skilled/competent than they actually are. MDs are Doctors. Phd = DR.
          3 years undergrad of applied science & you think you deserve the title?!
          Vets & dentists are more like Drs. The scary thing is that chiro seems to think it is above the law of university evidence & best practice, but at the same time utilising & i believe manipulating the publics trust in the medical standards universities maintain. Your degree is applied scientist. Could someone please tell me what justification chiros use to call themselves doctors?

        • Are you defending bad Chiros?
          Are you ignoring the fact that many are just out to make money and keep people hooked on being “cracked”?
          Do you not know that many Chiros see patients for the same issue for months/years without referring them even though there is no improvement?
          What’s your point??

        • @Lina

          You are not a doctor. You are a chiropractor, which is the equivalent of nothing. That makes you qualified to discuss nothing of medical or therapeutic nature whatsoever. Or even anything with the slightest amount of empirical validation. I’m sure you are bitter for over-paying someone to teach you how to be a witch-doctor, but don’t insult the intelligence of those with enough critical thinking ability to google ‘effectiveness of chiropractic adjustment’ with anything but the notion that you practice a totally unsubstantiated pseudo-science.

          • Luke – you are a sad angry man. I pity you.

          • @Sunny on Thursday 02 February 2017 at 20:11

            “Luke – you are a sad angry man. I pity you.”

            Actually Sunny, I pity you for lacking the intelligence and insight to arrive at such a ridiculous conclusion. Sadly, it seems the only arrow left in the quiver for the intellectually bereft is to go for the emotive attack, premised on nothing other than not liking the comment. Not liking something is not, however, an indication of its veracity, only of your abject failure to make sense.

        • Thank you for your comment!! Because many times in my life, I couldn’t stand up without help or walk without some of my different chiropractors. Just reading this nasty article here was/is enough for me. I have had crappy doctors, dentists, & chiropractors. I only need to go once to know they are inept. Sadly, no matter what you do in medicine, shit happens & people die. FACT
          I have 2 great chiropractors I couldn’t live without. They help me walk & more.

        • There are quacks and crooks in every profession and exposing and attacking them is a good thing!

        • I couldn’t agree with you more! I have had 3 heart attacks, have an auto-immune disease called transverse myelitis, also was recently diagnosed with left kidney failure! I’m only 57 yrs. and have been to 4 neurologists, and the best hospitals, even the Mayo Clinic (which I consider the best of all hospitals) I was told there is no cure for my disease which left me with severe back pain 24/7. All they could do was treat the symptoms with pain killers, and thank God for them! My nightmare began in 2005!
          I knew I had to turn to alternative medicine! I started with a book called Dead Doctor’s Don’t Lie by Dr. Joel Wallach M.D. He’s written 10 credibly books! I recently met the smarted doctor I’ve ever met, he’s both a medical internists and alternative medical doctor. My first visit, he ran tests and discovered the UNDERLYING CAUSE OF MY DISEASE! Two Root Canals I had done in the late 1990’s, have had bacteria trapped inside my jaw and gums! I have to get them redone, cleaned out and tooth implants put in by an oral surgeon! I’ve suffered needlessly for over 12 years and not one M.D. looked inside my mouth, asked about my diet, or lack of nutrients in my diet, asked about Mercury fillings, root canals, vaccinations, flouride, etc…until I met this alternative doctor in St. Louis. I refuse to give his name, over 30 alternative doctors have been murdered or disappeared, because they were CURING(opps, a forbidden word not allowed) cancer and autism! I suspect Big Pharma and or the Medical Pharmaceutical Industry! Don’t believe me, DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH

        • I do not know much about chiropractors but here is my 2 cents. I had an injury on my heel 2 years ago, crushed my heel and dislocated the subtalar joint. I have 7 screws and a plate in my foot. I had to quit my job bc of the healing time. After 1 year and half I finally went back to work except had to do on pain pills with pain management. I could only do 4 hours a day. A promotion was coming my and someone mentioned chiropractor and Have I tried that. I didnt know they could help with foot and thought why not. After even 1 visit I was able to handle 8 hour days. Only had 3 pain pills in 3 weeks. I’m reaping other benefits as well, my acid reflux has stopped and I can sleep without sleeping pills. So I’m not an expert and I don’t know what this guy is talking about but I thank God for my chiropractor. And he never took an X-ray. I brought my X-rays, he reviewed them so he could see what was in my foot. I did not go to him for a diagnoses. He did suggest that if my screws were removed that might take pressure off and recommended I see a new orthopedic for a second opinion bc mine wants to fuse the joint. I have nothing to lose by getting a second opinion but I lose a joint if I don’t and my job bc more time off work. Also I got the promotion.

        • Classic quote “I got into medical school but”. No one that gets into medical school chooses chiropractic instead that’s just idiocy.

          • I know three people off the top of my head that went to chiropractic school after becoming MDs. So I guess it does happen Donny…

        • Just like their are bad Chiropractors out there, there are bad Medical doctors as well. I have met medical doctors that have treated me that were unhelpful, greedy and were very quick on writing out prescriptions you don’t need so they can make extra money off you. Whatever doctor it is, do your research on them first before making an appointment

          • @Liz on Thursday 20 July 2017 at 13:24

            “Just like their are bad Chiropractors out there, there are bad Medical doctors as well. I have met medical doctors that have treated me that were unhelpful, greedy and were very quick on writing out prescriptions you don’t need so they can make extra money off you. Whatever doctor it is, do your research on them first before making an appointment”

            Your thinking is just like your writing; confused, illogical, and half-arsed.

        • @Lina

          Obviously, YOU have not been given a great education! I find it hilariously that you would make that comment and then follow it up with a barrage of misspelled words. I would never let you perform an “adjestment” on me!

        • You spelled school wrong.

        • SPELL CHECK

          • SPELL CHECK

            That’s a nice example of charlatanry outside the medical realm. There is no such thing as a spell check. “Spell check” is a marketing word, not something that describes reality. The sooner people will understand that, the better off we’ll be.

        • Charlatans seeking easy money with no skills other than nonsense. Why do you think Alan on Two and a Half Men was a chiropractor? Answer: Because everyone knows Alan is the lesser brother and Alan’s character is less than a real doctor. Humorous!

      • Thank you SO much for writing this. Sick of hearing the bullshit from people who didn’t even pass high school science. Not a single chiropractic article I’ve come across was conclusive and all the ones that chiropractic websites tout are either fake or written in the 1970s.

      • I’m a 42 year old single mom who had a pretty nasty fall about a month ago, My X-Rays from my general physician came back with some key problems (past and recent)and some he said “degenerate” areas. Be that as it may I was never in pain before and here I found now that I was always moaning when I moved or walked. So I went to a Chiropractor and just as you stated almost to a tee the same as your book details in the above article.(web page book jacket) II’m sitting here as if the wind has escaped me. My visit much like your warnings had a whole treatment plan layed out starting me going everyday then 3 times a week up until this coming Dec. I have to be honest it has caused me more pain in places I never had pain before. I told my Chiropractor everyday that I was actually feeling much worse some days not letting him touch my neck. I told him he woke up sleeping dogs because it’s now constant. The exact words I told him were this
        ” Dr. ——-, when my mom got sick with the disease ALS and after many tests we(my family, mainly my mom) believe that my mom always had the ALS cell in her but it layed dormant until one night at work(hard work at a cannery) she had a bad fall and we believe or she knew that’s what is was(bless her heart. RIP)Her fall made it go awry. Kinda waking up the cell. You see I think that is what’s happening here Dr.—–.”
        This guy actually tried to convince me that everyone’s treatment plan is diff actually had a chart for how long it hurts before you get better. My boyfriend makes fun of me saying if it hurts don’t go back
        “Saying would you pay someone to punch you in the face everyday and hurt you and still go back again?”
        So my question I guess is and if the answers in your book then I’ll go buy it but, what else does a person with pain do? My Dr won’t or my insurance won’t approve a MRI and I don’t think a MRI is gonna spit out a pain treatment? that easy and I’m in pain should I get massaged or physical therapy? I tried cupping. I know you can’t suggest anything probably legally, better yet how do I find a righteous chiropractor like you. A damn realist.

      • Thank you for the article. My husband was subjected to chiropractic gimmickry about a year ago. He has MS and a man recommended this actor/chiropractor who did strange things. Even put a drop of my husbands blood on his neck for healing. The doctor and his wife/assistant would yell in unison he is healed of this and that. Of course, he was not.

        I found out through research, they were using the insane Kinesiology techniques. My, how deceptive. People will act to make money and this chiropractor could perform. It was strange and he took a good deal of our money. And I have a feeling this former so-called friend also picked up a portion.

        Regarding X-rays, MDs will do the same. I was injured in a car accident years ago, and went to doctors to find help. Everyone stated I need to take X-rays, and I would say I have already done this but they refused to see them. And they would say, we cannot trust the X-rays done by other physicians. It did not take long for me to understand this was a lie and it was all about money.

        We have to be careful of anyone we put ourselves under for care.

        • @ Val Lee on Monday 12 September 2016 at 02:26

          I read your post with some bewilderment and, after checking your avatar, had a good laugh.

          “My husband was subjected to chiropractic gimmickry about a year ago. He has MS and a man recommended this actor/chiropractor who did strange things. Even put a drop of my husbands blood on his neck for healing. The doctor and his wife/assistant would yell in unison he is healed of this and that. Of course, he was not.”

          You have something in common with them though; you believe in magic too, only a different sort. Why is your magic any better or worse than theirs?

          • lol @FrankCollins

            I don’t know if you are going to see this or if you are even alive, but damn you are an a@@ whole ! funny, but an a#$ whole.

          • @Omar on Tuesday 21 November 2017 at 01:01

            “lol @FrankCollins

            I don’t know if you are going to see this or if you are even alive, but damn you are an a@@ whole ! funny, but an a#$ whole.”

            Thank you Omar, I’m happy to amuse a semi-literate clown, even though they won’t understand why (laughing at the less fortunate and all that).

      • Preston, anyone who has benefited greatly from Chiro care can easily spot that the real quack is you. I am a believer in Chiro and although I have only used it sparingly, I have always had great benefits from various practitioners. All the while with no fingers shoved up my anus…or vagina, for that matter. That you would betray the supposed group that you pretend to be a part of shows me that you have secrets to hide and that if anyone who knows you were to really take a look, they could easily find these secrets. At this time, they more than likely manifest themselves as odd behavior. The only people who pretend to like your work are those with glaring self interest, such as that Rn who is a psychologist. Any man with a decent heart and no true evil intentions, will find anything you are writing to be irritating at best and complete garbage. You don’t fool me in the slightest what your true colors really are.

        • @ Charles on Monday 14 November 2016 at 22:28

          So, “Charles”, you have a vagina too? Very interesting, but not unheard of.

          “I am a believer in Chiro”

          If you “believe in” something, does that automatically make it real and efficacious? In what else do you have a belief?

          “That you would betray the supposed group that you pretend to be a part of shows me that you have secrets to hide and that if anyone who knows you were to really take a look, they could easily find these secrets.”

          Betray? Did you not read the blog post? Preston is trying to expose practices. Can it be assumed you would hang whistleblowers too?

          “At this time, they more than likely manifest themselves as odd behavior.”

          Such as writing a bizarre post such as yours? Probably not.

          “The only people who pretend to like your work are those with glaring self interest, such as that Rn who is a psychologist.”

          A mind reader as well? Your talents are boundless.

          “Any man with a decent heart and no true evil intentions, will find anything you are writing to be irritating at best and complete garbage.”

          Appeal to Emotion, No True Scotsman and Sweeping Generalisation are logical fallacies which I recommend you learn in order to prevent the writing of such drivel. Then again, it may mean you write nothing at all. Either way, a good thing gor all.

          “You don’t fool me in the slightest what your true colors really are.”

          Charles, or whomever you are with your vagina, you provide some light entertainment with your post, however, if that is a prime example of your intellectual capacity, your are, indeed, a dullard.
          As someone once said to another in my presence, stick a broomstick up your **** and sweep the floor on the way out. It is probably the only useful act you will achieve.

          • Wow, interesting stuff.I have been utilizing chiropractic for 26yrs.I have had very good success, and have had chiropractors that were catalysts for change.I have had horrible chiropractors, the likes of whom have made my condition significantly worse, and I have experience.My first chiropractor I saw for 12yrs.While it wasn’t perfect, I have yet to find anyone more knowledgeable and useful for my condition.This seems like a bunch of poo poo to me.I can tell you I know of at least 5chiropractors that should not be practicing, at all.This fact is bad, as there seems to be very little in the way of standards, for chiropractic, no discipline done to the one’s who seriously mess people up.I am pro chiropractic, but I might say that if you don’t have at least a good feeling by visit 3 that the practicioner wants to help, and is competent, “trust you gut”.I will say that there isn’t much else out there for those of us who have chronic conditions, and we sometimes have to “get along” with practitioners that we disagree with, or completely dislike, not a great fit for experiencing “wellness”I had a chiropractor in 2011 that told me he could,”fix” my hands.He did help, but when he lost interest, about 4months into treating me for a serious car accident, he told me my insurance is over and this visit will cost 25.00 cash, knowing full well I had a serious headache and “needed” his treatment, or I would be miserable.I currently have no help for my hands, wrists and a serious deep tissue injury, and disc problem, can’t find anyone capable of helping.The one who followed through with treatment, stopped using her phone apparently, 7yr relationship, wasted.Nice……Sketchy…..

          • @Bobby Meservey

            I know it’s only a convention, but putting a space after a full stop at the end of a sentence really does help with readability.

      • I thank you so much for this book. I have been an ED RN for 13 years. I cannot tell you how many patients I have treated with complications due to chiropractic adjustments. Seeing a young woman in her twenties suffer a TIA post adjustment makes me want to shut down the myths. You have done a very fair and balanced analysis. The public, in the main, accept this as medical. They must be informed. Now I have a great resource to refer folks to. Well Done!!

      • Just reading “Twenty Things Most…..” was revealing. I won’t get into my personal situation but as a patient and victim of a negative outcome from a chiropractor the info here has helped me learn. Sharing info like this is ok. It gives a consumer knowledge in case you do come across a Dr. Who is a quack. This way we can weed out the good from bad. I trusted my chiropractor as a professional and his care of me was reckless. I found out he has been practicing 20 yrs. Has no ongoing education. No resume. He uses the drop table on everyone for everything…….. did not x-ray me…. and I said I had a Neuro condition with numbness and loss of feeling… and I had a damaging outcome. so this article helped me. Thank you.

        • @Elle on Saturday 02 September 2017 at 11:42

          “It gives a consumer knowledge in case you do come across a Dr. Who is a quack.”

          Yes, there are some doctors who are quacks, but every chiropractor is solely because they do quackery.

          • Frank, reference please.

            “….but every chiropractor is solely because they do quackery.”

          • @GibleyGibley on Sunday 03 September 2017 at 21:04

            “Frank, reference please.”

            I am pleased you asked.

            Chiro was invented by a convicted charlatan in 1895 based on the idea of God’s energy running along nerves and being restricted by subluxations. When did this change, and, equally, on what is chiro now based? (Based on your citing of Haavik, obviously, it would appear nothing.)

        • in case you do come across a Dr. Who is a quack

          Well, it is a matter of choice and using one’s brain, isn’t it? A thinking person would probably not go to someone who is guaranteed to be quack, just to avoid someone who might be quack.

      • Hello Preston Long. Thank you for your work and this excellent list. I have a small quibble with your last point.
        I would point you to our book Spin Doctors: The Chiropractic Industry Under Examination, published by Dundurn Press in Canada and available on Amazon. Thanks again for all your hard work.
        https://www.amazon.ca/Spin-Doctors-Chiropractic-Industry-Examination/dp/155002406X

    • Firstly, you really spend your time reading Chiropractic skeptic books? Theres a skeptic book for everything if you look for it hard enough. Have you many with a contrasting opinion to Prestons? I doubt it.

      That is a gross over-generalisation regarding cheating. What because Preston noticed cheating while he was there, therefore all Chiropractors must cheat there way through? Cheating is not associated with Chiropractic, its associated with students in general. Believe just as common in a medical degree or an engineering degree as it is in any other.

      If this is the content of the book, do you truly take it with merit? Think bigger mate, there is more reading to be done than skeptical reviews.

      • Lachlan wrote: “Firstly, you really spend your time reading Chiropractic skeptic books? Theres a skeptic book for everything if you look for it hard enough. Have you many with a contrasting opinion to Prestons? I doubt it.”

        It doesn’t take long to read the skeptical books on chiropractic. There are less than a dozen, and they, as well as blogs like this (which I read daily), address fairly comprehensively “contrasting opinion to Prestons” (especially in the comments). Suffice to say they have all helped me to form my low opinion of chiropractic, and continue to reinforce it.

        Lachlan wrote: “That is a gross over-generalisation regarding cheating. What because Preston noticed cheating while he was there, therefore all Chiropractors must cheat there way through?”

        There have also been allegations of widespread cheating at the Anglo European Chiropractic College in the UK. They were published in the Times Higher Education Supplement about six years ago, and thereafter were, I understand, hushed up by the chiropractic fraternity.

        Lachlan wrote: “If this is the content of the book, do you truly take it with merit? Think bigger mate, there is more reading to be done than skeptical reviews.”

        The rampant cheating was dealt with before page 15 of the book. What I’ve read since then – and it’s also far from complimentary – fits in with my other observations on chiropractic (particularly the behaviour of chiropractic leaders) during the last dozen years or so.

        • Just like this “article”, your basing you opinion solely on reading non-factual books about chiropractic is ridiculous. I know dozens of chiropractors, seeing as my husband is one, and NONE have ever been sued, none have ever worsened a condition, and they have helped patients conditions by the hundreds. Now, to address the completely idiotic,incorrect “facts” whoever wrote this piece of garbage: clearly you have no clue what the curriculum for chiropractors is like. Clearly you don’t know that chiropractors take the same EXACT science courses the first two years as MD students on TOP of WAY more advanced anatomy courses with cadaver labs. And I mean MUCH more advanced. Which is why chiropractors are, by a large percentage, more knowledgable about anatomy than MDs. Look it up. Chiropractors take FAR more credits than MDs total, and they take so many more radiology credits, you would be blown away. In fact, DCs are so much more accurate interpreting x-rays than MDs, it’s laughable. Clearly, if you were in chiropractic school for one week, you’d drown in the vast amount of work and information. I’m in school now and have a brilliant friend who just completed her MD. Do you think she could identify the third perforating artery in the body I personally dissected with my group members? Nope. In fact, she could ID half the structures on our massive list. You have no clue, and spend your time reading books based on complete nonsense and ignorance. You do realize that there are medical doctors who also practice adjusting as well, right? Actually, I wouldn’t be surprised if you didn’t. You seem like you’re stuck in the 60s. By the way, chiropractic studies have been done “scientifically” by the thousands. If you had bothered googling it, you would’ve found that out. Become educated by reading LEGIT material.believing everything you read in a skeptic’s book is moronic.

          • to call someone who makes a reasonable argument ‘moronic’ is moronic!

          • Couldn’t get past the big bad MCAT eh?
            lol. butt hurt much?

          • If you had read the little blurb at the top, you would know that this guy IS a chiropractor. Which is how he knows. He’s not just conjuring this out of nowhere. I am a physical therapist and personal, in depth conversations with the chiropractors in my city, trying to understand their view, but it flat out doesn’t make any sense. I asked for scientific articles and one person sent me her own “published” articles which were horrendous. Spelling mistakes, awful grammar, and no scientific basis whatsoever. They conveniently ignore modern science. There is no way that article would make it into a medical or therapy journal. I do not like, nor do I trust, chriopractors.

          • “By the way, chiropractic studies have been done “scientifically” by the thousands.”

            Show us one. Just ONE!

          • If a profession or its members are never sued, and have never worsened a patient’s conditions, then it’s an utter waste of time and money to anyone looking for genuine medical treatment and expertise. Every drug, operation and procedure that has the potential to help or heal, also has the potential to harm or kill.

            And if there is SO MUCH ‘legit’ material out there, why haven’t you linked even one?

          • Where are these vast bodies of legitimate research? Not in medical journals….

          • Blady-blady blah
            Not criticising Chiropractic adjustments BUT I have SPMS, so if they are so ‘Nerve’ motivated, why do I get the same adjustment as the guy with knee trouble?
            As I said, I like my fortnightly adjustments but just wish the chiropractor would keep her lifestyle comments to herself – she WILL NOT cure my MS, so what the hell does it matter if I drink wine or not?
            I’m going to die in 20 years anyway.

          • No one has been hurt by chiropractic? I had a client once who had 4 vertebrae shattered by a chiropractor attempting to adjust her dowager’s hump. She was in her late 80s with MD diagnosed osteoporosis. With those facts in his chart, the chiropractor attempted to adjust her anyway and did permanent damage to her spine (which may have hastened her death).

            I do think chiropractic has benefits for some spinal conditions, akin to the benefits of PT, OT, and clinical massage, but to say call chiropractors absolutely do no harm is fantasy.

        • There seems to be a lot of hush hush in the chiropractic community and I look forward to reading this book. Not many will actually divulge the truth and people need to know. I have recently been lied to, robbed (that’s what it feels like), been insulted and, in my opinion, deliberately injured because of the lies, overtreatment, when I didn’t even have a real problem, because I was scammed, and deliberate ignoring of my complaints after treatments. I wish I had known sooner because x-rays nor an MRI will detect or diagnose what’s wrong, I’ve been told. So now I have to suffer with problems I’ve never had in my life, they’re debilitating and I haven’t the faintest idea how to prove it, what I can do about it, or who to even contact. People should stop judging Preston for writing this book. People need to know, and the only reason there aren’t more cases found, is probably because people don’t know what they can do, because I don’t. And I’ve had low back treatments years ago and that chiropractor was an honest man and I went when I needed to and I felt better. The one now, is about wellness, smooth talking and care plan junk that is unnecessary. Somebody needs to finally tell the truth because my neck didn’t need to be messed with and it shouldn’t have been.

    • Lol, this book is nothing but an unresearched, baseless piece of garbage, actually. Do your homework and don’t believe everything you read when it clearly STATES that it is not impartial.

      • insults are not very convincing arguments!

        • It’s called passion! And she is clearly bothered that this information is being portrayed as evidence for a researcher like me looking for non wiki advice. @Edward ur wasting time

        • My recent experience with chiropratic care has been Ok. I went 10 years ago dealing with severe lower left back pain (shortly after lifting an object, and twisting at the same time) The doctor done his xrays, and after a few weeks of adjustments I felt great.

          Had the pain about a year later out of the blue, went for several visits, felt great! He then recommended a “maint program” which I denied, bc he wouldn’t give me a reduced price, and I wasn’t paying 45.00/trip.

          Other than minor pain and stiffness an inversion table took care of I was fine for years, until last summer while traveling to FL. I became so pain struck in the lower back I literally couldn’t walk, I sought out the help of a medical message therapist, after 2 visits she sent me to a local chiropractic doctor. He asked Q’s, had me sign a waiver to treat w/o a new patient exam I.E. xrays, and after 2 visits I felt good for the trip north.
          Yesterday my town Chiro Doc wanted to charge me a new patient exam b/c I hadn’t seen him in 5 years. I explained it was the same exact condition I have experienced before, and I didn’t want my body subjected to x-rays if need be and that my Family MD said it was not needed in situation such as I was experiencing. I said I would sign a waiver as well…..The office said they couldn’t do that and that my family MD just didn’t know much about how the body and chiroparatic care worked. That was enough for me to kindly opt ot of that office! I may try another office that respects my wishes, but c’mon an office that doesn’t even know me me in Florida has no issue of a waiver, but the one that has records of me does!! If that doesn’t smell fishy, what does.

      • Totally agree. This author overstates & takes an individual incident or small number of incidents and then makes a generalized statement. His book is garbage, he has NOT done his research. There are numerous studies on the efficacy of Chiropractic, just google it for yourself. Do some chiropractic students cheat, probably, so do medical students & those studying for their PhD & in EVERY other profession. Those people are generally weeded out of any profession quickly as they cheat themselves & either flunk out of higher level courses or quickly fail in practice.
        Do SOME Chiropractors overstate what they can do for them, sure, so do MDs, PhDs, contractors, etc.
        It would be great if there were even more studies done on the efficacy of Chiropractic for different conditions but who is going to pay for these studies? There isn’t any company that would be able to make money off of the positive outcome of the study. There are reports from many Chiropractic patients stating how Chiropractic has helped them, although these reports are generally dismissed as not substantiated because the report was not backed up by a study using the scientific method (double blind studies). He needs to remember that the medical profession & it’s methods were not substantiated using the scientific method for many, many years (& some treatments still are not) but the medical profession went forth, adjusting their treatment methods using patient’s reported responses to the treatments previously used.
        My personal point of view is not to believe ANYONE that sees anything in absolutes. I personally have been helped by Chiropractic for 2 different conditions after spending many years with different MDs none of which were unable to help me.
        There is room for all types of practitioners, they all have something to offer or all these different types of practitioners would not still be in practice after all these years.

        • Thank you, finally someone with some actual knowledge!

        • Ah yes, the same “argument” used for the lack of proof for the efficacy of homeopathic treatments.

          I think a serious profession should think to benefit by substantiating its claims scientifically, or at least be honest and say that “our treatments have little or no basis in scientific studies”.

          • The proof of efficacy is in the satisfaction many patients have with chiropractic care. There are a whole lot of people out there who were in pain, who went to see a chiropractor, and are no longer in pain. There is research being done to substantiate the health benefits of chiropractic. I don’t think you’ve done enough research yourself, because it’s out there, and there is a lot of it. As a matter of fact, there are thousands of research studies and articles you in many different highly reputable and peer reviewed publications.

            What’s more important though? Proof of efficacy in the scientific realm, or proof iterated by a patient about their outcome as patient of chiropractic care. As a chiropractor, I’m in the business of helping people get back to pain free health, not substantiating science. Although I would like to continue to see further research, I don’t let it dictate my care. Research is left for those who really desire to get granular about the science. That’s not my interest. My interest is in the direct contact and care of patients.

            Here are a couple examples/comments made by clients who have come to see me. These are written by my clients, not me. This substantiates my work, and that’s all I care about…

            “I had experienced chronic neck pain for over a year before seeing Dr. B. I had seen various MD’s, an orthopedic surgeon, and a physical therapist. None of them were able to fix my neck. I have been receiving treatment from Dr. B for a month now, and I have already experienced dramatic results! My neck is just about cured and I am no longer experiencing chronic pain. Dr. B takes the time perform a thorough assessment of your situation during the first visit. He then crafts a treatment plan and explains in detail how he will treat you. Treatments are fast and effective and you’re even able to schedule them online quickly and efficiently. Thanks, Dr, B!”

            and another one…

            “Great therapy philosophy and skilled chiropractic adjustments. Dr. Blenio has been helping me to address achilles pain and get back to my normal running regimen. Highly recommended.”

            Just as an FYI. I don’t claim to “cure” anyone. I’m NOT in the business of curing. I’m in the business of using my understanding of human biomechanics and the musculoskeletal system to help people get better. Most of that work is done hands on by me, but there are also things the patient must do on their side.

            Do you find it at all interesting that the first review paragraph talks about how the individual saw multiple MD’s, surgeons, and physical therapists, yet the only doctor who could resolve their issue was a chiropractor?

            In the sports world, it’s about wins and losses right? When the game is over, you look up at the scoreboard to see who has won. MD’s and other health care professionals can disparage the chiropractic profession all they want.

            I say, “SCOREBOARD!”

          • thank you!
            this is truly an excellent example of profound ignorance.

        • “My personal point of view is not to believe ANYONE that sees anything in absolutes.”

          Well look at you. You’ve used two absolutes in one setence. You’ve got a real knack for this commenting thing.

        • It sounds like the author of this book is working for the insurance industry. Those chiropractors can make a lot more money writing reports to cut people off w/o any risk of doing any injury. I have been helped by chiropractic and been over sold by other chiropractors. Its about trust.

          • How do you establish “trust”?

            “I have been helped by chiropractic and been over sold by other chiropractors.”

            How would you know?

      • 100% Agree, read it (borrowed from a friend as I wouldn’t pay money on this garbage) and everything he points out could be pointed right back at MD’s throughout history also (or anyone else in almost any other profession).

        Many DC’s I have been to do not go on about being able to heal anything and everything throughout the spine as the Author of this book has written. I could write a book on how MD’s have killed countless amounts of people and blamed it on “Surgery complications” over 10,000x from that of which DC’s have injured people.

        Anyhow, glad I read the book and found it to be about as informative as a gossip magazine you can pick up that reports weekly on hollywood stars, that’s how correct and informative this book is, the only people that would believe it are the ones that believe THOSE kinds of magazines!

        I’ve lost count of how many times “MD’s” are on TV and the news as a result of killing people, yet strangely I’ve yet to see a DC on tv resulting in the same….. interesting.

        • Hi ‘Read it’.

          Since you’ve posted here previously, would you like to tell everyone else your real name?

          • Maybe he doesn’t want his real name used since some people would use the info to try and track down personal records. I have noticed how terrible the admin are on these sites. No different than being a pervert looking at another person’s Facebook to troll their history even though they aren’t friends.

        • Medical doctors treat the entire range of human illnesses, which includes surgery, whereas chiropractors treat minor self-limiting afflictions that, mostly, regress towards the mean.
          How can you even hope to compare the two? Yes, people die during surgery because it is inherently dangerous. Would you rather ban surgery?

      • Oh, and on what basis do you stand, “My husband is a chiropractor, so I know everything about chiropractic.” You have not given any sources or evidence to your study; much less any information that truly holds water. The only thing you have proven thus far is that you are under the opinion that your husband is “perfect” and could not possibly be one of those “quacks” mentioned in the book. I strongly suggest that you open your mind to the fact that just because someone thinks that they are indeed correct, it is not always so. If that were the case, no one would ever fail tests, so long as they had a strong belief that they are correct. Also, as someone stated above, everything that works comes with a risk… commonly known as SIDE EFFECTS. No, seriously, it’s a legit term http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/side%20effect just paste that into your browser to see for yourself. So instead of just attacking someone because you have a difference in opinion, become more educated on the subject at hand and produce a valid argument instead of making a huge paragraph that could be summed up in two words: “I disagree.”

    • So what?

    • I myself, find it amazing, that the topic of over prescribing prescription medication by MD’s has not come up in this conversation (that I’m aware of anyways) for some of us, chromic back pain and headaches has been masked by Doctors prescribing pain meds, muscle relaxants, and antidepresents because you wake up every morning with a headache. If chiropractic care offers you an alternative, really? would you pass on the addiction perhaps, or maybe the liver problems associated with pain relief medication for years on end?

      • I have chronic migraines and a ruptured disc in my lumbar spine and 8 degenerated discs in cervical and thoracic spins. I was a chiropractic assistant many moons ago and I bought into the whole subluxation lie. Then I started seeing a medical doctor. Wow was it different. He didn’t claim to know everything but was determined to work with me to figure it out. And my medical team is great and wants me to feel good. Yes they are overworked and stretched thin because of the healthcare crisis, but I’ve been at this a long time and I’ll take actual science over quackery any day. (Side note: I found a chiropractor that is more inline with the author of this article. He knows what he is qualified to do and doesn’t try to do any more. He was recommended to me by an orthopedic surgeon and 2 internists. Turns out if chiropractors would stick to evidence and not bunk, the medical community would stand with them).

      • I had a laminectomy for severe sciatica (curled in a ball for six weeks) caused by a ruptured disc at L5-S1. It is now 31 years and one month totally free from pain and the physical ability to do whatever I want.

    • You have some interesting comments, but again, I think you should do more research and start thinking about what real health is. It’s not in you taking some drugs, or getting some surgery. Last time I looked, there were a lot of people dying from drug interactions and that’s not a good thing, especially if you’re the one taking them.

    • Chiropractic is fraud. Period.

    • I’ve spent the past year in pain and sought medical treatment for the chest pain I was having. I went to the ER and they gave me pills for costo chondritis. It continued. I kept telling docs I think it’s a pinched nerve no one took me seriously and a year later fed up I saw a chiropractor. They loved to give me muscle relaxers and anxiey meds. I’ve had 3 adjustments and xray showed a curve in my spine and my neck. I’m furious that my doctors would not take me seriously and just take xrays. It’s maddening they just keep shoving pills at me and can’t even look at me when I’m explaining my pain. At least for now I don’t feel like I’m crazy anymore because I do have back issues and the chiropractor seems to help, although very sore after adjustments, my shooting pain seems to be subsiding. I’m scared if he doesn’t help me then who will. Doctors will not.

      • @ DREA on Sunday 13 March 2016 at 22:41

        “At least for now I don’t feel like I’m crazy anymore because I do have back issues and the chiropractor seems to help, although very sore after adjustments, my shooting pain seems to be subsiding.”

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costochondritis

        Not much of this makes much sense. There isn’t anything about your condition which seems to indicate a “pinched nerve”. What makes you think this is the cause of your condition?

        Why do you think the chiro is helping when you aren’t much better? It may just be regression to the mean.

      • look at John Bergman an amazing chiropractor AND medical docor on youtube.. also God can help ! Ive seen people healed when they are desperate and call out to Him.. there is help.. if you see you will find so please do not despair

        • @fiona

          I followed your suggestion and looked him up. The videos in which he ‘adjusts’ people are hilarious, and it reflects badly on the US education system that people without biomedical knowledge can imagine this kind of hoopla offers any medical benefit at all.

          You say Bergman is “an amazing chiropractor AND medical doctor.” NO, he is emphatically not an MD, and the fact that you imagine he is only serves to prove the point made many times on this blog: allowing proponents of complementary nonsense anywhere into the real medical system merely serves to cause confusion and mislead the public.

          But what’s most worrying is that Bergman is a ‘straight’ — a believer in all the vitalistic horse manure invented by the conman DD Palmer. From one of the many Bergman videos on YouTube

          It may sound like an incredibly bold statement, however, Dr. Bergman will discuss exactly how 97% of diseases can be prevented and cured. The belief system of the medical allopathic model of healthcare is beginning to shift to a vitalistic approach to healing that supports the body’s natural systems. It’s time to change the world and it begins now.

          Fiona, please read comments in other ‘chiropractic’ threads in this blog. You will find several chiropractors regularly posting that this kind of half-witted stuff is not the way 21st-century chiropractic is heading. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: there is obviously “no true chiropractor”. (Google ‘no true Scotsman’ if you don’t know what I mean.)

          PS. Your remark that God can help is confirmation that belief in complementary and alternative medicine has a lot in common with religious belief.

          • Whatever you do, Frank, don’t watch this video of his: Cancer Health Rant. It might not be good for your blood pressure.

          • Aargh!! 160/120!

            Darn you, Alan. You knew I’d have to follow the link. Now I’m going to have to OD on calcium channel blockers.

            Seriously, if this guy were UK based, wouldn’t that video be breaking the law?

          • Sorry about that Frank!

            We do have the Cancer Act 1939, which is there to protect the public from quacks and their quack cures and there have been a few convictions: Cancer Act 1939 convictions in the UK

          • @ Alan Henness on Monday 20 February 2017 at 19:48

            You b@st@rd. I did watch half of it and can’t get that time back.

            Interestingly and very ironically, he talked about medical matters as if chiro had something to do with it. Everything he talked about came about because of medical science and its openness, not due to faffing about with backs of the worried-well. He is oblivious how stupid he appears for criticising the very medical science which provides all of that information through research, something chiro doesn’t do.

            Actually, it did provide some humour, even if it was at that dimwit’s expense, so the time wasn’t totally wasted.

        • @fiona

          I don’t suppose there were any cameras around when your god healed those people you saw, were there? They’d probably be far more interesting that a chiro doing his tricks.

      • I had Costco as well, it was because of my ribs pushing against th chest walls due to bad posture. What helped was this thing called the back pod, there is this physical therapist on YouTube I forgot his name. Anyway you can research it.

        • Anyway you can research it.

          No sir, supply your own references or your comment’s worth diddly squat.

        • I had a rather nasty costochondritis last year after an even more nasty respiratory viral infection (not influenza). I just took NSAID’s and pain killers for symptomatic relief while that was necessary and the problem went away gradually over a couple of months. If I had used the X-treatment (replace with your favourite alternative therapy) I might have fallen into the trap of thinking it was the X-treatment that did the job.

    • Agreed. One poster asked why chiro is still around if it’s nonsense, you’d think people would push it aside. Same reason every weight loss program or diet that professes to be the answer still makes money, or infomercials still sell crap to people who watch infomercials. The gullible will be gullible through the end of time. It doesn’t provide evidence of effectiveness, just evidence that people will believe anything.

    • I just came across this and wonder why this guy went to the other side? I have been a Chiropractor for 26 years. Many insurance companies deny claims and do whatever is necessary to save money. I know of a chiropractor who denies Workers Compensation claims. He stated to my friend he makes close to $375 K doing this. I don’t have the heart to rip apart my profession and there is always one odd ball out there. I treat some of the top athletes in the world and I am sure they would look at this and say WHY?
      Ok that’s my two cents.

      • @D

        Perhaps you could read the book to find out?

      • @ D on Wednesday 16 November 2016 at 06:44

        “I just came across this and wonder why this guy went to the other side?”

        Maybe, just maybe (and this is what he did), he saw the problems with your “profession” and wanted to do something constructive about it?

        “I have been a Chiropractor for 26 years.”

        You have a small degree of my pity and a large degree of my disparagement for persisting with such nonsense for so long. Chiro doesn’t breed or engender critical thinking so you chose your career badly but, hey, you get to call yourself “doctor” despite the title being meaningless and worthless in this context.

        “Many insurance companies deny claims and do whatever is necessary to save money. I know of a chiropractor who denies Workers Compensation claims. He stated to my friend he makes close to $375 K doing this.”

        No surprise. Chiro is about making money, just as DD intended with his new religion.

        “I don’t have the heart to rip apart my profession and there is always one odd ball out there.”

        Paraphrased; I like making a lot of money doing nothing constructive except administering a placebo to the worried well, and money is more important that tawdry concepts such as principles.

        “I treat some of the top athletes in the world and I am sure they would look at this and say WHY?”

        Sure, TOP athletes have also been to universities and studied medicine so they know chiro is credible and efficacious. If they saw this blog post, they should ask why they are wasting good money on a quack.

        “Ok that’s my two cents.”

        Only two cents? It is, after all, only a shabby pittance of what you charge for no real outcome.

        My bet is you won’t respond.

      • D wrote:

        I have been a Chiropractor for 26 years.

        I treat some of the top athletes in the world and I am sure they would look at this and say WHY?

        Ok that’s my two cents.

        Did you really gain only two cents from ‘treating’ some of the top athletes in the world?

      • Not being a doctor doesn’t make someone nothing. And has no one figured out what a parasitic entity the AMA is? Just look at their logo. They “reclassified” dis-ease in 1939 along with our government and the cdc to exclude actual root causes. And by reclassify I mean EDIT OUT. Because there’s no money in a cure. Speaking of, why do you think studies are limited? Bc mostly pharmaceutical companies pay for them. Being a doctor involves memorizing presented information, unless you’re a surgeon it also involves a steady hand. After that it’s experience and I’ve met some really stupid and old doctors so even that isn’t teaching some of them. And how many unnecessary procedures are done? And why are prescribed “properly” medications the 3rd leading cause of death in the US?

        Ppl wait for symptoms but they don’t often show. Chiropractors offer free workshops selling nothing but health and nutrition advice. They don’t live flashy lifestyles or talk over those that come to see them. They’re humble, helpful and kind. One of them saved my life with their overpriced xray. Which btw mds charge a lot more “per sheet” for. Maybe it’s bc the dc actually does the xray themself? Is their time not worth as much? Bc I feel like everyone’s time is valuable. Do you pay your mechanic? Bc that’s just your car, you can replace it. Your body sorta needs to last a lifetime… I think. I’m no doctor.

        Btw I found what you’re looking for. (Hands over a bit of attention.) Hope that helps!

        • Even people who can write incoherent nonsense such as this can vote?

          • Even people who can write incoherent nonsense such as this can vote?

            I’m guessing it is akin to blind people playing darts: don’t get in the way, you might get hurt.

        • Chiropractors offer free workshops selling nothing but health and nutrition advice. They don’t live flashy lifestyles or talk over those that come to see them. They’re humble, helpful and kind.

          You have obviously not been fleeced (yet?) by chiropractors Josh Axe or Richard Hagmeyer.

          I’m no doctor.

          And it is evident that you know nothing at all about real doctors and very little about make-believe ones.

        • They “reclassified” dis-ease in 1939 along with our government and the cdc to exclude actual root causes. And by reclassify I mean EDIT OUT. Because there’s no money in a cure.

          Interesting claim. Can you point me to the evidence of this?

    • Have any of you looked in Gonstead Therapy ?

    • I can attest to the rampant cheating, severe bias, over complication of courses, ridiculous rules and in many colleges a cult-like indoctrination in philosophy instead of actual education. In fact, based on the showings there is an induction of over adjusting that is going un-noticed and will damage thousands who do not use proper means of self-care relying only on manipulation to “heal” them.

      I left school due to neurological issues no one could diagnose by my research it had to do with the constant adjusting along with the insane environment.

    • Sceptical??

      • @Liz on Thursday 20 July 2017 at 13:57

        It is an article along similar lines to the crap this alleged journalist writes.

        I also looked at the studies cited and found, “Among patients with acute low back pain, spinal manipulative therapy was associated with modest improvements in pain and function and with transient minor musculoskeletal harms.”.
        Hardly startling. It is a big call to hang your hat on that.

        Another cited “study” was from the Palmer College of, yes you guessed right, Chiropractic. It still teaches vitalism, that is, it is god’s energy healing you through the “removal of subluxations”.

        Idiots will believe anything, yep, you Lizzie.

    • chiros don’t kill 250,000 people every year with “medical” mistakes. chiros are not the 3rd leading cause of death in usa

      • @michael carman on Tuesday 21 November 2017 at 05:45

        “chiros don’t kill 250,000 people every year with “medical” mistakes. chiros are not the 3rd leading cause of death in usa”

        Not only is it bullshit (and you have no evidence except chiro nonsense), but doctors do medicine, not faff around with backs which will get better over time by themselves. Chiros, when another idiot is one more idiot than anyone needs.

    • I’ve gone to dozens of chiropractors and have spent thousands of dollars over the years desperate to heal myself of chronic pain and constant headaches. I have not improved I will definitely check out this book.

  • “4. Our legitimate scope is actually very narrow.
    Appropriate chiropractic treatment is relevant only to a narrow range of ailments, nearly all related to musculoskeletal problems. ” I agree . Most UK chiropractors would.

    “8. “Cracking” of the spine doesn’t mean much.” I agree, lots of UK chiropractors don’t crack joints.

    “9. If the first few visits don’t help you, more treatment probably won’t help.
    I used to tell my patients “three and through.” If we did not see significant objective improvement in three visits, it was time to move on.” I totally Agree and every chiropractor should tell this to every patient.

    “12. Neck manipulation is potentially dangerous.
    Certain types of chiropractic neck manipulation can damage neck arteries and cause a stroke.” Many UK chiropractors do not use “the certain types” of adjustments.

    10. We take too many x-rays. Many UK chiropractors do not and never have taken x rays.

    • …and I am sure you have evidence for your statements.
      does the fact that you comment on merely 5/20 points mean that you agree with all his other arguments without objection?

      • fedup wrote re the scope of chiropractic being very narrow, and appropriate chiropractic treatment being relevant only to a narrow range of ailments, nearly all related to musculoskeletal problems: “I agree. Most UK chiropractors would.”

        Let’s have the data in support of that claim, fedup. The subluxation based/vitalistic Alliance of UK Chiropractors (AUKC) claimed recently that it represented the *majority* of chiropractors in the UK. See the links in the last paragraph here:
        http://www.ebm-first.com/chiropractic/uk-chiropractic-issues/2253-the-british-chiropractic-association-aligning-itself-with-uk-fundamentalist-chiropractors.html

        As you’ll see from the links, the AUKC’s scope of practice is far from ‘very narrow’.

        • Blue Wode I have been around newly qualified chiropractors for the last 8 years so have spoken to many and many do not work as subluxation based chiropractors. Infact next year I will run a study and see if I can provide you with data. Any questions you would like asked? I do find it ironic that when 1 chiropractor gives you anecdotal evidence that condems chiropractic you are all over it like flies round you know, but any positive anecdotal evidence is just that. I would like to ask Preston if he really does think he’s made the right career choice. I for one am very happy with what I do, I work within a very narrow field, I’m not always happy with “chiropractors” or how some work but believe me, I know many, who feel the same. The AUKC may represent the majority, but most chiros only stay with their associations to get insurance. It doesn’t dictate how anybody should practice.

          • fedup wrote: “Any questions you would like asked?… I’m not always happy with “chiropractors” or how some work but believe me, I know many, who feel the same. The AUKC may represent the majority…”

            Yes, how would someone know to look for an evidence-based chiropractor, and what source would they consult if they wished to find an evidence-based one in their area?

            fedup wrote: “I do find it ironic that when 1 chiropractor gives you anecdotal evidence that condems chiropractic you are all over it like flies round you know, but any positive anecdotal evidence is just that. I would like to ask Preston if he really does think he’s made the right career choice.”

            fedup, please get back to us once you’ve read the book.

          • Clearly, many people are not understanding that there are always
            “Greys” nothing only black and white or cut and dry. We all can speak to our own experiences… But, to discount a total profession is simply irresponsible. The girl whose father was a scientist should know better than that. There are successes in all aspects of the healthcare community as well as negative outcomes. There are quacks in every profession. There is a place for all of these successes combined. Not just “one” of these is the only way. We need to work together as a community to actually heal or help a patient. Many times a chiropractor will find something and send a patient to a specialist. I’ve witnessed many patients so thankful that the diagnostic alertness of their chiropractor caught things that their regular doctor missed. Perhaps the ” listening” to the patient” factor comes into play. I’ve witnessed medical doctors refer patients to the chiropractor because they have exhausted their resources of knowledge…. And then the patient being so thankful because they got the help they needed finally. It goes both ways. And to say that medical school has more education?… Do the research… They have more education in the use of drugs. And, we all know that drugs can be good and bad. Specialists? Of course, you then get more hours of education… But that is the same reason it limits their scope… So you get all sorts of different specialists but very honed in their craft. Chiropractors are specialized, at least the ones worth salt. These doctors of different talents need to work together. Frankly, having a team of doctors of different facets analyze a patients condition would be a powerhouse Of healing. How many times does a patient get shuffled from one specialist to the next.
            I am not sure why there is close-mindedness toward chiropractors who whiteness success on a regular basis. When you end up with a problem that no one has helped you with over and over again and exhaust all resources, and you finally come to the chiropractor, and get relief… You are sold that this profession has a vital place in the healthcare community. Scientists and researchers should ” want” to study these results. There is room for all to work together for the benefit of patients. Why would you want to deny someone wellness if all options are not on the table? And someone who paints a picture that all the educations of thousands of doctors are a crock… That’s just foolish.

          • Q: Why would you want to deny someone wellness if all options are not on the table?
            A: Because some options fail to generate more good than harm.

          • Very well stated Kate. You’ve nailed it with your comments. I refer patients to General Practitioners and Orthopedic Surgeons (among others) a patient has come in with a problem that is more serious than I am capable of treating, or if I find it is simply out of my scope of practice. I see my scope of practice as **structural neuromusculoskeletal** and I do not deviate outside that realm. And when I say structural neuromusculoskeletal, that means I do not treat neurological diseases or disorders of more serious nature, nor do I treat severe trauma to muscles, tendons, ligaments, or joints.

            I also find that more and more patients are coming to me saying their medical doctor told them to see a chiropractor as well. My chiropractic treatment methods help a lot of people, and there is a lot of very good science behind the methods I use to treat my patients.

            There is good peer reviewed science behind what chiropractors do. And sure, there needs to be more, and better science as well. As there should be for any medical or therapeutic method.

            I honestly believe that the majority of the comments from people on this page who are denying the benefits of chiropractic care, or who are calling chiropractors quacks, are old school medical doctors who are stuck in the past. I also realize that some of their conclusions may be justified to some degree, because there have been and are chiropractors out there who claim to treat problems that I believe are out of their scope of practice.

            The reality is, the newer more contemporary medical doctors have a better understanding of how chiropractic can help. I think the newer medical doctors also realize there is an old guard of chiropractors who make claims they can’t substantiate, and that the newer guard of chiropractors who treat structural problems are the doctors of chiropractic they trust. This is my opinion though, and I base it on the fact that more medical doctors are referring patients to good chiropractors.

            I desire to build strong relationships with medical doctors with whom I can refer patients, and who will refer to me. This type of relationship strongly benefits patients. That’s all I care about.

          • I have moderate scoliosis and I only go to my chiropractor “as needed”. I saw him yesterday for the first time in 2 years. He helps me. He doesn’t over treat nor sell me anything extra….and i am sore this morning, but not in the pain I was in yesterday.

          • @ Jay on Monday 02 February 2015 at 15:42

            “There is good peer reviewed science behind what chiropractors do.”

            Do you have any, or is making some bold-faced assertion as good as having evidence?

    • Whenever I talk with someone about these types of things, he or she assures me that, “MY chiro is not like that, he’s GOOD and makes me ‘feel better'”. I usually advise the person to try a massage instead of spending so much on the chiro. One of these people has been getting “cracked” weekly for twenty years and thinks her chiro is a “genius”. o_o

    • Today I had first adjustment at local chiropractor. He was straightforward.his charges are 35pounds but as I am housewife not able to work it is 25pounds each time.I take morphine in the form of Fentanyl 75patch and it barely helps the pain I suffer since eosophagogastrectomy..partial removal of my gullet and stomach which now is repositioned up high in My chest and the surgery involved cutting open a rooftop incision on my tummy and another from under my right breast and around to my back and up to my shoulder. Major ten hour surgery that has left me with nerve damage and this limits mobility. I got an introductory gift of consultation and three sessions for 30pounds….normal cost claims to.be 155. It’s worth a try. He thinks I will need two a week for six weeks then one a week for six weeks then one or two a month for wellbeing….500pounds! I am in absolute agony tonight and worry about all the cracking noises…not sure it should be doing that. If said i have three bits near the bottom of my spine that are kind o,fixed..inflexible and the same between and just below my shoulder blades and a thick swelling kind of lump at back of my neck. Also another bit between my lower spine and pelvis at left side. Most of the session was pressure rather than pain except lying on my back with him holding behind my relaxed knees and behindmy head at the neck and told me to Be floppy and As I breathed out he bent my head and knees toward each other then pulled my body to the side and really stretching it..quite beyond anything I could achieve on my own. Uncomfortable lbut not painful. It felt good to feel the flexing. I will try and go again on Thursday but tonight I feel as though the small of my back is very bruised. What I did notice when I left his office was a kind of sinus headache each side of nose and along the side of cheeks and up and across eyebrows…it felt as though something was being unblocked.feel free to contact me if you want to know more if it helps with research or whatever.
      Sincerely , Wilma.

      • Be careful, Wilma. The only evidence for chiropractic is spinal manipulation for short-term relief of pain in a sub-group of low back pain sufferers, and even this it is no better than cheaper and more convenient options like exercise. Other more evidence-based therapists, such as physiotherapists, can also perform the spinal manipulation for you. Do not hesitate to see a real doctor if you have any concerns about your health (even during your ongoing sessions with this chiropractor).

        • You beat me to it Blue Wode, but it’s worth adding that there’s also no evidence for ongoing chiropractic ‘wellness care’ (or whatever marketing jargon they use these days).

          Wilma

          Please think carefully about this before spending any more money and, as Blue Wode says, it might be best to consult your GP.

        • @Wilma
          I totally agree with Blue Wode! This is terrible! A chiropractor is in no way a competent therapist for this kind of problems. Even the best ones. Physical and mental rehabilitation is what you need. He/she will only be taking your money while time and nature takes care of some, hopefully much of the problem. In my opinion the chiro is led by greed, not good intentions in taking on such a case.

          I am not so familiar with the UK system (it is the UK i presume?) but it surprises me greatly if you are having to pay for rehabilitation yourself after major surgery.
          From what you write I cannot really discern if the problem is pain from your thoracotomy (the chest incision) or pressure induced nerve damage from a long procedure and lying improperly positioned and protected for a long time on the op-table.
          A ten hour esophagectomy is very much longer than it should have been. Four hours is more normal depending on the case and some of that time for repositioning from supine to the side for the chest part. One may guess that severe overweight was a deleterious factor but in such case they should have been even more ardent in avoiding pressure-induced nerve damage form lying too long on the op-table. Something probably did not go as it should have during that surgery. I am not implying that someone is liable for malpractice, does not have to be, but this eventuality should really be explored under such circumstances. At least you should be assisted in finding out about your rights.
          You might consider (if you did not already) contacting a lawyer, an ombudsman or a patients rights organisation – or whatever is available to assist you in finding out what your rights are and pursuing them. The hospital should have someone who takes care of such requests by patients.

          As I said, the incision in the chest can by itself give severe pain for a very long time, especially after long, difficult operations. There are methods to deal with that. Your problems should be dealt with by several specialists but absolutely no chiropractors. Time is a big factor in your favour and it is very likely that your problems will improve as time passes, notwithstanding chiropractic. You will improve your chances of recovery greatly if you are ardent yourself with the physical rehabilitation and if you follow the therapy and advice of a good physiotherapist.

          I write this as a surgeon who has experience with this kind of surgery and also has first hand experience of chiropractic – it was useless in my case as I have described on this blog before.

          I sincerely hope you will recover and regain a life of at least some quality.

      • Surgeon told me my MRI showed herniated L4 & L5 vertebrae. Needed surgery but I’m 330lb and he said no one will operate on anyone over 250lb. Told me to try chiro treatment. I was rushed throught at 12mins or less on all exercise and electro stimulation. I could barely walk after being put on a decompression table. I even asked how it works if I was strapped at my bellybutton and it compressed down on the area he was decompressing..total joke in my book. Now in more pain then when I Started…

    • As a retired, third generation chiropractor who has been very critical of the problems inside the chiropractic world, I must comment;

      1. I have always had a problem with the word “subluxation.” It is in any medical dictionary, but what “true believers” make it into I agree is not legitimate. However, many joints, especially the demi-facets in the spine become fixed in non-optimum biomechanical relationships (could be called subluxations) and it is a learned skill to know how to manually detect and correct them and not everyone who would has the talent or even muscular control required. Many times an audible occurs (not all joints, such as the sacroiliac are constructed in a way that would allow enough decavatation and correction is usually done via a transverse gliding force). Use of the term “crack or cracking” conveys a lack of understanding of joint physiology. There have been many independent studies that have found that decavatation produces stimulation to circulation, and also affects neural receptors with positive results were sub-decavatation does not. What this demonstrates is that a certain amount of decavatation has occurred. What the majority of chiropractors including myself have noticed is that the most immediate relief of NMS pain and symptoms and restored function accompany this sort of treatment while the passive, below threshold “treatments” provide some relief, but more treatments are required and the concern that the body has merely adjusted to a chronic, unsymptomatic “spontaneous remission” has occurred. The problem with avoiding decavatation is that this has led to many phony techniques that are heavy on psychological treatment and light on physical treatment. I have long noted that the “low force” or “no force” techniques seem to attract the most neurotic patients. Such “chiropractors” have no more real value than a massage therapist and in fact, compete with them. A smart consumer would merely go to the less expensive massage therapist and get the same exercises, nutritional therapy and whatever New Age health trend is currently up for marketing.

      While adhering to the old “Meric System” of pathologies as related to the spinal nerve levels is archaic and silly, treating the NMS (that’s right, Musculo-Skeletal System has to include the prenom – Neuro because its an integral part of the two!) treating the NMS is what modern chiropractic is about. In as much as neglect of the basic structural system can affect a person’s overall well-being, such an idea is NOT outside of the realm of a scientifically supported notion. It’s not a question of all or nothing.

      “Three and through” is a cute slogan, but it doesn’t nearly cover the realm of cases usually presented to a chiropractor. In acute cases when neuritis is included, three treatments can make a huge difference. However, a chronic, nagging problem is going to require a much longer treatment regime, although not 6 months or a year. A chronic problems presenting in an acute exacerbation isn’t going to respond completely in three treatments. (Yes, I do think that proper biomechanical function is part of optimal function overall). A traumatic problem affecting the NMS isn’t going to resolve and perhaps not even respond in three treatments. My father used to say that if there is no change after six treatments, it is time to look for another cause (and possible referral). Now, that IS how a physician thinks.

      There have been studies done on the stroke risk of certain “chiropractic” adjustments. The old, full “rotary break” is unnecessary for results, but even then, the incidence is 1 in 1,250.000. Treating patients with arterial sclerosis (which can be imaged on x-ray as it shows in the carotid arteries) would provide a screen for contraindication for any sort of upper cervical manipulation.

      Below is a web searched result of stroke studies done regarding chiropractic manipulation. This is mere sampling, there have been many more;

      search 1998;2(2):77-85.

      The RAND corporation estimated that the risk of stroke from chiropractic adjustments was “one in a million.” (“The appropriateness of manipulation and mobilization of the cervical spine. Santa Monica, CA: RAND Corporation 1996: xiv. (6).)

      Over a ten-year period, Danish researchers found only five cases of “irreversible CVA after chiropractic treatment.” Based on this, they estimated a risk of one stroke per 1,320,000 neck adjustments. (“Safety in chiropractic practice. Part I: The occurrence of cerebrovascular accidents after manipulation to the neck in Denmark from 1978-1988,” Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics, 1996; 19: 371-7.)

      Based on a survey of 64 California neurologists, Albers, M.D., estimated the stroke-chiropractic correlation to be “one in every 500,000 manipulations.” Co-investigator Philip Lee, M.D. noted, “Indeed, most interventions by allopathic physicians have a higher complication rate than chiropractic interventions.” (“Neurologic complications following chiropractic manipulation: A survey of California neurologists,” Neurology 1995; 45: 1213-5.)

      The author of a Canadian study found 13 documented CVAs related to chiropractic care in Canada, and no deaths, over a five-year period. Since some 50 million cervical adjustments were given by Canadian chiropractors during that time period, he concluded that a reasonable estimate of risk was one serious neurological complications per 3 million neck adjustments. (“A report on the occurrence of cervical cerebral vascular accidents in chiropractic practice.” Journal of the Canadian Chiropractic Association, 1993; 37 (2): 104-6.

      Researchers in Holland concluded that the overall rate of complications from chiropractic adjustments was one in 518,886. (“Complications in Manual Medicine: A Review of the Literature,”Journal of Manual Medicine, 1991; 6: 89-92.)

      No strokes or any other significant complications were found during an examination of 168,000 cervical adjustments during a 28-year period. (“Chiropractic therapy: diagnosis and treatment,” Aspen Publishers, 1990: 61.)

      When one considers that as many as 98,000 Americans die every year from preventable medical mistakes, the complaint about the risk of stroke resulting from a chiropractic adjustment is petty and evidence of rampant anti-chiropractic bias in the skeptic (giving skepticism a bad name).

      Taking x-rays as part of an initial examination in a chiropractic office is as important as a dentist in taking x-rays of the teeth. When the carotid artery is calcified, it shows up on x-ray as noted above as do a huge amount of other issues that affect accurate diagnosis and treatment. A good chiropractor can see “subluxations” or at least the abnormal orientation of a joint in an x-ray. What not doing x-rays does is liberate the lazy and issue in a huge swathe of non-effective sham techniques (as identified in some studies). The abandonment of x-ray in the chiropractic examination leads to poor care and even an undermining of the effectiveness of chiropractic treatment. Chiropractors that don’t use an x-ray screen most often misdiagnose and the possibility that inappropriate treatments or at least minimally helpful treatments will be applied. Not using x-ray as an examining tool helps support the “non-force” schools of practice because if you are merely pulsing a joint (like a physical therapist) you are minimizing treatment (and by an interesting coincidence) conserving the doctor’s energy, allowing for high volume practices that typically use a myriad of post treatment gimmicks like exercise balls, surgical tube exercises and things that a patient can acquire on the internet by themselves, or through a massage therapist (who often get away with mimicking physical therapists and even chiropractors).

      On cheating, hasn’t there been national news stories on rampant cheating in college in almost every field including medical schools? This is no excuse for what cheating does go on, but when I attended there wasn’t any going on that I noticed. Students studied hard and were serious about it. However, I can say that the technique peddlers were the main problem and distracted students and even mislead some into belief systems rather than science based chiropractic treatment. And that leads to my central criticism of chiropractic. The real problem with chiropractic careis that it is too easy to fake and many chiropractors did not really learn actual chiropractic and sometimes even had the notion of it as a pathway to gain a license for practicing their own preconceived ideas. (I was amazed and angered when I heard students talking about “aura adjusting” in my first year, but as time went on, you didn’t hear about it because of the educational process). Basically, the more “marketing” the chiropractor uses the more likely it is that what he’s doing is not actually that effective or even patient specific. My father used to talk about the need to standardize chiropractic. The failure to do this has led to abuses in many directions, from all the misleading technique pedlars to chiropractors that fail to use the basic physical exam including x-rays as a screen. All of this constitutes some form of cheating and many chiropractors are very good at blinding themselves to the facts, including you, “fedup.”

      Most of this criticism stems from the results of the medical establishments early and ongoing strategy to isolate chiropractic education. The main problem is that chiropractic colleges are exclusively private, for profit institutions. After WW2 and the introduction of the GI Bill, more people went to college than ever before. It was a boom time for chiropractic as well. I know for example that in California alone, where was once up to 50 “chiropractic colleges.” I remember a friend of my father’s who had attended a Six month “college.” Since the liberalizing of government educational loans, many different and questionable “colleges” have come into being, some are exclusively online. Chiropractic college matriculation jumped when these loans were approved for chiropractic colleges in the early 1980s. This has led to a kind of return of the post WW2 education quality question. However, entry requirements have increased (BS required). Chiropractic colleges became more like online diploma factories are now (as an extreme). This was possible because the strategy of the AMA was to suppress academic standards development for chiropractic while simultaneously criticizing those standards. This led to partisanship that led to success by chiropractic and chiropractic colleges due to the huge world of medical malpractice and neglect when those who would look for a better alternative found value in chiropractic. (Chiropractic has got something going for it in a basic way, it would have died out long ago, if it were simply a health trend like pyramid power, or crystal healing). But extremes create extremes and the very people that love extremes end up attracted to chiropractic because it is too easy to matriculate and it has been difficult to control what graduates actually do once they are licensed (due to inside politics that result from outside pressure from the AMA). Clinical experience is way below that of the medical doctor, but as the critics say here, our actual clinical focus is a specialty, like dentistry. How many pelvic exams must a dentist perform in dental school? If you review the actual hours that chiropractic students spend in the basic and clinical sciences, they rival the medical school. As for the author’s criticism of nutritional knowledge is concerned, I don’t know where he went to school, maybe the failed radically “straight” Sherman Chiropractic College where chiropractic was taught in Bible Belt fashion (where the school was located), but the standards are for many classes in biochemistry, physiology and specifically in nutrition. We all learned what the Krebs Cycle and ATP production was about. My oral exam question was around diabetes.

      There is a huge world of abuse in the medical profession that reach a far deeper and consequential reality than the anti-chiropractic issues this article presents. I have an active complaint against one in my area for fraud in reaching a fake diagnosis of sleep apnea rather than my actual problem just to push his particular CPAP machine to me. The over diagnosis and billing for sleep apea is a big thing right now, and it’s just one of hundreds. Most people have gotten something valuable from traditional chiropractic or it would not have survived all the attempts to suppress/destroy it since the beginning of the 20th century. Yes, our worst enemy may be within, but there is a huge lack of understanding as this article illustrates as well as these responses.

      • Marc LeRoux, DC wrote: “Below is a web searched result of stroke studies done regarding chiropractic manipulation. This is mere sampling, there have been many more”

        Indeed there have been. Lots more here http://www.ebm-first.com/chiropractic/risks.html

        Marc LeRoux, DC quoted: “The RAND corporation estimated that the risk of stroke from chiropractic adjustments was “one in a million.” (“The appropriateness of manipulation and mobilization of the cervical spine. Santa Monica, CA: RAND Corporation 1996: xiv. (6).)”

        That RAND investigation also found that 90% of neck manipulations were inappropriate. Also, you don’t seem to be factoring in this regarding risk:
        http://edzardernst.com/2014/03/complications-after-chiropractic-manipulations-probably-rare-but-certainly-serious/#comment-55695

        Marc LeRoux, DC wrote: “Co-investigator Philip Lee, M.D. noted, “Indeed, most interventions by allopathic physicians have a higher complication rate than chiropractic interventions.” (“Neurologic complications following chiropractic manipulation: A survey of California neurologists,” Neurology 1995; 45: 1213-5.)

        Here are “allopathic” physicians’ answers to their critics:

        Part 1
        http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/answering-our-critics-part-1-of-2/

        Part 2
        http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/answering-our-critics-part-2-of-2-whats-the-harm/

        And here’s a snippet from Death by Medicine:

        QUOTE
        “Doctor-bashers use their numbers to argue that alternative medicine is safer. Maybe it is. I suppose not treating at all would be safer still. It depends on how you define “safe.” To my mind, a treatment is not very “safe” if it causes no side effects but lets you die. Most of us don’t just want “safe:” we want “effective.” What we really want to know is the risk/benefit ratio of any treatment.
        The ironic thing is that all the statistics these doctor-bashers have accumulated come from the medical literature that those bashed doctors have written themselves. Scientific medicine constantly criticizes itself and publishes the critiques for all to see. There is NOTHING comparable in the world of alternative medicine.”
        Link: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/death-by-medicine/

        Marc LeRoux, DC wrote: “Chiropractic has got something going for it in a basic way, it would have died out long ago, if it were simply a health trend like pyramid power, or crystal healing.”

        Chiropractic has been kept alive by slick marketing tactics and the persistent lobbying of legislators who are not well versed in science. The undeserved courtesy title of ‘Dr’ (which conveys prestige, honesty, and expertise in the eyes of the public) is also a factor in helping chiropractors stave off a rapid demise. However, it’s worth remembering that blood-letting seemed to have something going for it for a few decades until it was finally recognised as bogus and then discarded.

    • What’s your point? It sounds as if UK chiropractors curriculum is FAR less advanced than American chiro schools. We take 64 credits more than MDs and take the same courses MDs do for basic sciences, on top of much more advanced anatomy and physiology courses. It sounds like the UK is much more limited in their curriculum.

      • I am a specialty trained MD and these stats make no sense Britt
        It is absolutely ridiculous to try to compare chiro to med school. It is possible your course work may compare in hours (even that I doubt) but the majority of medical school is clinical work. All the course work you are talking about is condensed in the first two years. In third year I spend an average of 100 hours a week in the hospital or doing clinical work x 48 weeks. Every third night we did a 36 hour shift in the hospital. During this time we would see thousands of sick patients with conditions that you only read about in a book. In my third year of medical school alone, I delivered 42 babies, assisted on over 280 surgeries, did 84 intubations and on and on. I worked in the intensive care managing patients who are tenuously holding onto life. Outside of these 100 hour weeks I had to study!
        On surgical rotations we had to pre round at 4 am, followed by rounding with the residents at 5 and then staff at 6 am and then to the operating room from 7 to 4 and then admit the patients for the next day from 4-7 pm.
        This is all in third year. I won’t even go onto 4th year medical school and then a 5 year residency.
        How can you compare? Do you even see sick patients. So what if you read things in a book
        Don’t even try to compare what you do!!

        • Brittdoc was referring to the first two years, he/she didn’t even speak on clinical work. Calm down. Your points are more valid for anyone on here bashing the medical profession’s clinical hours, dedication or commitment. I for one agree that the divide is in the 3rd and 4th year, but unfortunately incompetency is in all fields of work, regardless of the education received. You ask Briitdoc not to “compare what you do!!” yet you do just that….you should prescribe a chill pill and don’t be a hypocrite.

          • You really think chiropractic school courses are as difficult as medical school courses?

            The average GPA necessary to get into a well ranked chiropractic school is about 3.0. (Both Palmer College and Parker University have this requirement).
            Harvard Medical School’s average GPA requirement is 3.8.

            On top of that, the courses Harvard expects you to have taken include things like biostatistics, whereas Parker just wants you to have 24 credit hours in science classes. That’s a semester and a half. Let that sink in. A semester and a half of science, and then it could all be history courses for all you know. That doesn’t sound much like a doctor to me.

            I mean, looking at the undergrad requirements, I could easily get into a chiropractic school–and I’m not even interested in those classes. I could get into a well rated one, too. I could definitely not get into Harvard though.

        • I completely agree. As an academic myself, I feel that chiropractors while claiming to help those that mainstream medicine cannot and seperating themselves as holistic, even criticizing mainstream medicine at times, are not entitled to call themselves “Dr”. I was shocked to find that the large majority did. To me this is not only highly hypocritical but more importantly I believe that by using this title they enjoy the prestige & trust the public holds toward the medical fraternity and in doing so manipulate, confuse & con their ‘customers’.

    • “If the first few visits don’t help you, more treatment probably won’t help.”

      Great! I’ll tell that to my next patient with severe whiplash conditions and see how that goes over! The last time I checked, soft tissue injury actually requires a period of healing and rehabilitation to return to normalcy. But I guess with your approach, I would just adjust them three times, wrap them up in a neck collar and send them on their way!!

      “Neck manipulation is potentially dangerous. Certain types of chiropractic neck manipulation can damage neck arteries and cause a stroke.”

      And what are the odds of that happening? About 1 in 10 million cases or so? And conversely, what are the odds that a patient is going to react badly to a prescribed medication and DIE!!? Or undergo a “routine” surgical procedure and DIE!!? Oh yeah, that only happens about 300,000 times a year!!

  • Well that could be extended to straight medical profession too… we still see physios using Ultrasounds or medical devices with no proven efficacy on plethora of MSK conditions, dozen and dozen of cyclic treatments prescribed by physicians who doesn’t know the difference between cruralgia and sciatalgia, unnecessary surgery, unnecessary investigations and so on and so forth… I don’t know in the US but in the UK Chiropractic and Osteopathic colleges have a decent and sound syllabus, surely better than the one I had when I trained to become a physio in Rome… and it may be true that the experience in clinic is tight but you do see patients supervised by tutors with a certain experience and background (from ones more wooly and wishy washy to people with solid EBM approach and with their feet right down on earth)… of course a lot depends from student to student (and from practitioner to practitioner), how much one is open minded or dogmatic (should I say stupid or not?), how keen to learn you are from other experts and how humble you are to sometimes saying “sorry I am not too sure I can deal with that” and send the patient to someone more competent…

    Nice interview by the way!

    Regards

  • 1.”Only a small percentage (including me) reject these notions and align their beliefs and practices with those of the science-based medical community” I don’t believe only a small percentage operate in this way, I believe a large percentage, like him and me, reject these notions. But I still can’t see how he can work based on the science/medical community when he also states “little of what we do meets the scientific standard through solid research. Chiropractic apologists try to sound scientific to counter their detractors, but very little research actually supports what chiropractors do.” But again to use lack of evidence for lack of efficiency.
    “7. We offer lots of unnecessary services.” I agree, but it’s not me, its not we. I believe we should offer 1 service. Chiropractic.
    11. I agree but disagree with the statement that patients in research studies are safer because “medical teams that exclude people with conditions that would make manipulation dangerous.” This is I find hard to understand, especially if the chiropractor is using techniques that have no/very little incidence of adverse effects.
    14. Chiropractors who sell vitamins charge much more than it costs them.” why would you sell vitamins?
    “19. Don’t expect our licensing boards to protect you.” The GCC are no friends of Chiropractors, they have been overly punitive on many occasions.
    “3. Our education is vastly inferior to that of medical doctors.” I agree. Mine was. I don’t and never have pretended to be as qualified as a medical doctor. I don’t want to be a medical doctor, I don’t and never have used the title DR. And again I know many chiropractors who will give you the same answer. Especially in the UK.

    “16. The fact that patients swear by us does not mean we are actually helping them.
    Satisfaction is not the same thing as effectiveness. Many people who believe they have been helped had conditions that would have resolved without treatment. Some have had treatment for dangers that did not exist but were said by the chiropractor to be imminent. Many chiropractors actually take courses on how to trick patients to believe in them. ”
    I agree, but sometimes a patient will swear by you because you have not manipulated them but referred back to their GP for further investigations. you can satisfy, you can be effective , you can be both or neither.

    • Dear Fedup, it is very simple. Unsubstantiated claims, anecdotal witnessing and post hoc ergo procter hoc beliefs propel chiropractic forward since its creation by Palmer. Continues to this day I see after reading replies here.

      Have the best day possible,

      Preston

      • Wrong. Chiropractic is results driven. People arent stupid. If they arent getting results why would they waste their time, energy and money. Chiropractic is investing alot of time and money into investiagating what we do as a profession. It is undeniable that Chiropractic has a respectable amount of research backing its use in low back, neck and headaches amongst adults. So to use such terms as unsubstantiated claims and anectdotal witnessing are not only offensive. But also wrong. If you wish to truly help people maybe you would write a letter to the editor regarding these research papers, instead of writing a small blog online, venting your frustrations.

        Guess it depends on your intent.

        • your opinion seems based on cherry-picking your research. read the Cochrane reviews on the subject.

          • Could I not say the very same for the above 20 points? There are 6 references for 20 points. 2 are websites, which are low levels of evidence. One is yourself and another S Barrett. Just saying that if you accept articles like this to be published on your website with poor ‘cherry picked’ references. How can you debate anyone else’s ability to do so.

            Once again, depends on your intent.

          • I will answer your question once you respond appropriately to my comment that the Cochrane reviews fail to support the points you were trying to make. the technique of ignoring challenges of such types by making a counter-challenge seems very popular with chiropractors and other apologists of alternative medicine but it is nevertheless inappropriate.

          • You’re talking about “cherry-picking”, then tell someone who is telling a general truth to read one specific source of reviews? Unbelievable. The FACT is that chiropractic is a very gentle therapy at the muscular and skeletal level. There is very little room to cause a serious injury and in fact that is very very rare. Do you know how many MDs are used for malpractice?! Nearly 1 in 5. Chiropractors are sued so rarely, I literally don’t know of a single one- and my husband is an experienced chiropractor. Plus, I’m in chiropractic school and 90% of our friends are chiropractors. Only an ignorant, uneducated human being could ignore the MILLIONS of positive results to point out a minuscule handful of failures. It’s ridiculous, and clearly you are one of millions of zombies that simply believe allopathic is always right. Good luck with that. Unfortunately, it’s likely you’ll end up being over medicated, or worse, be prescribed a drug that will seriously hurt or kill you. I see a commercial for law offices at least 10 times a day, advertising their ability to sue physicians for hundreds of injuries caused by dangerous drugs and treatments. Have you ever once seen a commercial from a lawyer offering to sue chiropractors? No. You haven’t. By the way, MDs malpractice insurance is up to half their salaries. Chiropractors pay about 1,000 bucks a year. To say that what chiropractors do is dangerous and that they are used often is laughable. Malpractice insurance isn’t dirt cheap for practitioners who are practicing a dangerous treatment.

          • this is opinion, not evidence!

    • Regarding your comments on #11, your comment on finding it hard to understand confuses me. Is this because you don’t believe there are conditions that are contraindicated for chiropractic care? I ask because I have such a condition, Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome, and getting chiropractic care could have devastating consequences for anyone with EDS, especially the hypermobility or vascular type. I understand certain types of Chiari malformation could be a condition that contraindicates chiropractic care, as well, although I’m not 100% certain. But H-EDS and V-EDS, definitely.

  • Fedup: you use the word ‘many’ a lot on that comment. Could you give an idea of what that means? 25% 40% Not more than 50% or surely you’d have used ‘most’ instead.

    Even if only 10% were as dodgy as those discussed above, that’s still an awful lot in an unregulated and unsubstantiated field.

    • Many just means “many chiropractors I’ve met, mentored and discussed with over the last 22 years” I am unable to give you exact figures, I’ve not kept count. But I could also use “most” or even “nearly all”. I agree if only 10% are dodgy it casts a shadow over the whole profession, BUT no profession can be without it’s faults, or bad apples.
      I think the problem is not with Chiropractic the problem is with “patient management schemes” these have nothing to do with the patient and his/her best interests, they have been devised to get the patient coming back as much and for as long as possible, no matter what the initial problem.

  • who is this idiot, who wouldnt know the first thing about chiropractic. I learned more about it as a patient and then having sought out to become one as well. He did independent medical exams which means he was paid by the insurance compainies to discredit chiropractic, shame shame on you mister.
    YOU SOLD OUT…..and you disgust me.
    chiropractic works and millions upon millions are now aware of this.
    Im just not sure who paid you and the other idiots out there doing the same thing. I would sooner go work at a grocery store packing groceries.
    Preston H Long you are a disgrace to the chiropractic profession…take off your chiropractic hat, you dont deserve to wear it. YOU sir are a shame and a folly!!

    • Hehe a good brotherhood is cute but it won’t cover up for the profession – it only reinforces the mythical aspect of the chiro-gurus. With that being said, if they’d actually stop teaching you that “actual” medecine is the epiphany of evil and incarnation of the Devil with a capital D, you could actually get some sense into you. The usual yadda-yadda medecine kills people and so on. Because I’m sure chiros have similar case as doctors do in the ER – oh and complicated cases too. (lol)

      • Hi Stephanie, I could not agree more. It seems impossible to stick to the topic at hand and have a disputation without tangents and personal attacks. I find it amusing to read these posts and count the logical fallacies, ad hominem attacks and anecdotes.

        All my best,

        Preston

      • I dont think we have ever been taught Medicine is the devil at all. At our practice we treat many GP’s, Psychiatrists, Nurses, even a Neurosurgeon. Never have we had an issue. We get referred to by many surrounding medics from around the area. Using the term mythical chiro-gurus is disrespectful and offensive, it is Chiropractor. If you wish to throw around offensive words then you have already lost the discussion.

        All the best,

        Lachlan

      • Stephane, why don’t you do yourself a favor and check out the curriculum required to undergo before being granted a chiropractic license? I doubt you’d get through it. It is so rigorous and difficult, many end up failing out, regardless of the fact that they aced the pre reqs to get in (which, by the way, are identical to the pre reqs MDs have to take). DCs take 64 credits more than MDs, which includes WAY more advanced anatomy, physiology and radiology courses. And they are nothing but hard science- adjusting isn’t even taught the first two years. Also, look at DCs accuracy in interpreting x-rays. They are so far above MDs abilities (including radiologists!), it’s unbelievable. DCs are also more knowledgable in the anatomy arena. Try doing research before babbling about nonsense. The RESULTS are what SHOULD prove to you that chiropractic is legit and works, seeing as the majority of insured Americans have seen chiropractors or see them regularly. Are you saying millions of people are not getting any results or are seeing negative results, yet go back again and again and again?! Please. Your argument is completely based on your ignorance of the profession, NOT on facts.

        • argumentum ad populum = fallacy. evidence would be better!

          • edzard, i haven’t read anything you’ve posted where you aren’t simply volleying back resistance, unwilling to concede anything, and you don’t seem to have the slightest interest in actual debate. i find you the least trustworthy of anyone posting on here and the person with the most overt agenda.

            but if i may ask you to please respond to this one point: do you think the pittance chiropractors must pay in malpractice insurance compared to the outrageous amounts allopathic doctors must pay indicates that they are a MUCH smaller risk of doing actual damage to their patients? insurance companies are kind of known for simply charging based on statistics to insure a profit.

          • oh dear!
            I have tried to explain this so many times!
            but i’ll do it again.
            EVEN IF THESE FEES WERE A TRUE REFLECTION OF THE RISKS, WE NEED TO CONSIDER NOT THE RISKS OF INTERVENTIONS ALONE WHEN JUDGING THE USEFULNESS OF HEALTH CARE. WE MUST CONSIDER THE RISK/BENEFIT BALANCE.
            if not heart surgeons could be seen as far less useful than homeopaths, for instance.

      • Stephane, you should learn how to string together a sentence coherently, and maybe you would be a little more credible,but furthermore, you obviously know NOTHING about this profession. Tell me, what is the curriculum a DC must complete to become licensed? I find it funny that someone who can’t write thinks they are above chiropractic physicians who completed a highly rigorous program that MDs have also completed prior to receiving their medical license, who say it was far more difficult a program than the one they completed first. You’re just ignorant of all the facts. Go find yourself some actual research instead of basing your opinion off of what some people you overheard talking or your mom thinks.

        • you are a champion of muddled thinking and ad hominem attacks.

        • Seeing as your own and your husband’s livelihood, and that of most of your friends, is entirely dependent on chiropractic, give me one good reason why we shouldn’t simply assume your arguments are all motivated by money?

        • Britt…

          Read through your own posts and tell me how many spelling errors you see.

          Done?

          Now decide: is everyone who makes a typo in a forum an idiot?

    • Thanks for your opinion Anna Maria have a wonderful weekend.

      Preston

    • That explains it – you get to wear a special magical hat when you’re sworn into the Holy Siblinghood of Chiropractic. Is it like the Hogwarts Sorting Hat? If you disgrace the Siblinghood, does the Chief Wizard cause your hat to shatter (like Gandalf does to Saruman’s staff?).

      The most sinister words a chiropractor ever hears – ‘Sir, take off your chiropractic hat’.

  • Preston Long is clearly a person who regrets his career choice and has chosen to make it into a book that panders to medicine. He practiced a profession for 30 years that he condemns wholesale, what does that say about him?
    He leaves out the fact that the third leading cause of death in our country is medicine! The leading cause of personal bankruptcy is medical bills and around 30 percent of procedures are unnecessary. He also cites Steven Barrett who is a disgraced psychiatrist and like Long has dedicated his bitter, puzzling life to going after chiropractic.
    As a practicing chiropractor I will be the first to admit, that like any profession, ours has its challenges and a few bad apples. However, Long discounts the multitudes that chiropractic has helped and saved from dangerous drugs and surgery. As far as risks of injury from seeing a chiropractor vs. medicine, all one needs to do is compare malpractice insurance rates to see that insurance carriers rate medicine as an exponentially more dangerous undertaking.
    I think Mr. Long would benefit from a hobby. It might ease his lament for what he must feel was a wasted life.

    • The absolute ignorance of this article is insane. Its almost funny. Most, if not all points are completely biased and manipulated to represent your opinion. Which is all this is. You have 6 references for 20 points. Wow. One reference is from S. Barrett (are you kidding me), another is from Ernst E (once again, are you kidding me). Another two of the references are 15+ years old. Its funny how you only look at research that supports your opinion, and seemingly forget the remainder which debates it.

      Chiropractors are 5 years university trained. Have an enviable safety record (compare it against medicine). Enviable patient satisfaction record. Are registered and regulated by professional bodies nationally. We must continue to improve our self and our skills in order to maintain registered.

      Many of you will be aware that the risk of injury in hospitals and reported adverse drug reactions has escalated over time and it is estimated in the (1) British Medical Journal 2000 (no recent figures available) that as many as 18,000 people die every year as a result of medical error in Australia, while 50,000 people suffer a permanent injury. These figures are estimated to now be significantly higher.

      More recent statistics from the Therapeutic Goods Act of Australia (2) state that there were 233,300 reports of
      suspected adverse drug reactions in 2010. This does not include deaths or injuries attributable to medical care in
      2010 nor does it include complaints relating to misconduct, advertising or communication issues.

      In that same year (2010) there were 11 million estimated visits to chiropractors within Australia (3) and a total
      of only 41 reported treatment complaints made about chiropractors. (4) (There were no alleged deaths or serious
      complications in this time frame reported in the Australian literature.)

      1.) Weingart SN, Wilson RM, Gibberd RW, Harrison B.
      Epidemiology of medical error. BMJ 2000; 320(77): 4-7.

      2.) Adverse Drug Reactions, Australian Statistics on Medicines
      V1.0 September 2011 Online. http://www.tga.gov.au/pdf/
      medicines-statistics-2010.pdf

      3.) Chiropractors Association of Australia (CAA) records (2010)

      Its always funny how certain things can seem “unsafe” when they are compared against nothing.

      Shouldn’t this whole debate not be about shaming any one particular profession and more be about working together to improve patient outcomes? Because believe it or not that’s what its all about at the end of the day…the patient and their improvements. Not your ego.

      People keep reading and researching for yourselves, don’t rely on incredibly biased blogs/articles like this that push a persons opinion on you.

      Finally I leave you with this; Voltaire once wrote in an essay on tolerance: “Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so too.”

      Article did make me laugh though.

      • @Lachlan

        A good laugh is always helpful.

        But, like quite a few of the other replies here, you throw insults, do rather a lot of hand-waving and introduce red herrings all over the place.

        Obviously it may vary in different countries, but to pick up on one of your points relevant to the post, perhaps you can say something about this ‘enviable safety record’? How do you know?

        Also, I’m sure if there was a survey of astrologers’ customers, we’d find a high satisfaction rate, so what do you think a survey of chiros customers shows?

        • If critiquing the authors references is an insult, then please feel free to critique mine.

          Is not stating in the above article that ‘chiropractic causes strokes’ a direct insult against chiropractic as a profession? What is one to do. Would you not do the same, if the tables were turned? What’s more these claims are not supported with evidence, but are mere opinion (which is the lowest form of evidence). Here is a small amount of supporting evidence for my statements regarding chiropractic NOT causing stroke:

          The inaccurate or false assertion that chiropractic is unsafe due to the risk of stroke is not evidence-based. Cassidy et al (1) looked for an association between chiropractic visits and VBA stroke and an association between GP visits and VBA stroke. They compared the two and found no diference — patients having spinal manipulation did not have a greater rate of stroke than patients having primary medical care with a GP. Again, it could not be demonstrated that seeing a chiropractor or a GP had anything to do with causing stroke. Instead, as the study concluded, the main reason for any association was most likely due to patients seeking care for neck pain and headache prior to an impending stroke, since these are very common precursory symptoms.
          It is not only extremely rare to have one of these strokes in general terms, it is so rare to have one associated with chiropractic care that the risk can’t even be accurately determined. Common medical treatments for neck pain and headache such as anti-infammatories have medically acceptable risk ratios that far exceed even the highest risk estimates for chiropractic. (2)
          But misleading reporting in the medical literature regarding chiropractic has been widespread and the terms chiropractic and chiropractor have been misused in many medical journal articles that examine the safety of chiropractic. Associate Professor Allan Terrett, in his book Current Concepts in Vertebrobasilar Complications (3) discusses how authors have frequently quoted examples of ‘chiropractic injury’ when it is clearly known that the involved therapist was not a chiropractor. He says, “Chiropractic adjustments are among the safest procedures in the provision of human health care service, when compared to mortality and morbidity rates in medical practice.” Chiropractic has an outstanding and enviable safety record.

          1.) Cassidy JD, Boyle C, Cote P, He Y, Hogg-Johnson S, Silver FL, Bandy SJ. Risk of Vertebrobasilar stroke and chiropractic care. European spine journal. 2008; 17(1): 176-183

          2.) Dabbs V DC, Lauretti W DC. A risk assessment of cervical manipulation vs NSAIDS for the treatment of Neck Pain. JMPT 1995; 18: 530-536

          3.) Terrett AGJ. Current Concepts: Vertebrobasilar complications following spinal manipulation. West Des Maines, IA: NCMIC Group Inc 2001
          TERRETT IS A LEADING WORLD EXPERT ON VEEREBRAL ARTERY ACCIDENTS!!

          Additional:

          4.) Haldeman S, Kohlbeck F, Mcgregor M. Stroke, Cerebral artery dissection, and cervical spine manipulation therapy. J Neurology. July 2002, 249(8) 1098-1104

          Found the risk of VBA from a chiropractic adjustment was 1 in 5.8 million!!!!!

          In regards to patient satisfaction and furthermore to patient safety. An INDEPENDENT inquiry into chiropractic was performed in 1979 via the NEW ZEALAND GOVERNMENT, which found, and let me quote “Remarkably safe and a clinically effective form of health care. Chiropractors have more thorough training in spinal care than any other health professional. Furthermore, Chiropractic has an excellent safety record. It is the result of a conservative approach to health that minimises invasive procedures or addictive drugs”

          Heres the source have a read:
          Hasselberg PD. Chiropractic in New Zealand: Report of the commision of inquiry. Wellington, Government Printer: 1979

          An older source, but its credibility holds true and strong today.

          Another INDEPENDENT Large study done by an the RAND organisation in 1991 found similar findings.

          THIS STUFF IS NOT HARD TO FIND WITH SIMPLE LITERATURE SEARCHES ONLINE. Im not going to run around for you, considering how easy it is to find all of this. I could quote SO many more articles supporting what I say. But unfortunately its one of those arguments with so much emotion involved, its hard to get to the truth.

          Chiropractic, particularly here in AUS is working its butt off to get more and more high quality evidence to support what they do. And what we dont need are articles like this presenting points with no evidence to support it.

          So to counteract your question: How do you know? How do you know any of the above 20 points are true, if so where’s your proof/your evidence? Is it high qualty? I have questioned what I do and come out more confident, can you say the same reviewing my above comment?

          Im off to do something I dedicated my life to, helping people.

          • Lachlan, you really need to get up to speed with what the Cassidy paper really told us:
            http://www.ebm-first.com/chiropractic/risks/491-chiropractic-and-stroke-evaluation-of-the-paper-risk-of-vertebrobasilar-stroke-and-chiropractic-care-results-of-a-population-based-case-control-and-case-crossover-study-spine-2008-feb-15334-suppls176-83-cassidy-jd-boyle-e-c.html

            Indeed, bearing in mind that chiropractors (globally) have either no adverse events reporting systems, or very unreliable ones, the many reported complications associated with their treatments are pretty scary to say the least:
            http://www.ebm-first.com/chiropractic/risks.html

            In view of the above, what Simon Singh concluded in his 2008 Guardian article over which he was personally, but unsuccessfully, sued for libel by the British Chiropractic Association, would still seem to stand:

            Quote
            “If spinal manipulation were a drug with such serious adverse effects and so little demonstrable benefit, then it would almost certainly have been taken off the market.”

            Link: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2008/apr/19/controversiesinscience-health

            NB. Reports of deaths after chiropractic treatment are “about three times the number of deaths from trovafloxacin, an excellent antibiotic abandoned in the U.S. as too dangerous”:
            http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/compare-and-contrast/

          • @ Blue Wode.

            Thank you for engaging in a scientific debate.

            Firstly, several things must be mentioned before continue. I referenced 3 quality references in my first comment. 5 quality references in my second comment. For which you combatted with links to opinion based Websites.

            Any reader reading this comment, must first understand that websites are poor forms of evidence, and any scientist will not hold a website to high credibility or validity. Why? Because very often they are based on that authors opinion and are not assessed or peer reviewed like an article in a reputable journal.

            Now we may continue.

            Secondly, my remaining 7 pieces of peer reviewed literature remain to be critiqued by yourself. Why? Please provide supporting literature for your comments.

            Your first link is to a website (poor level of evidence). This website is clearly biased towards your opinion considering the propaganda and advertising on the site. Which critiques cassidys 2008 paper. Most of which is opinion based via Ernst. If follow the link further to the next page. It leads you to 2 more supporting papers of cassidy et al. One (if you choose to read them) showed a decrease utilization of chiropractic care in certain regions of canada with an increase occurence of VBA stroke in those same regions?
            What is your response to this?

            2.) Your second comment and link talks about No adverse event reporting system. In AUS we have the Chiropractic Board of Australia AND AHPRA who regulate us and take complaints/adverse events. Just the exact same as a medical board and registrational board would. So unsure of your comment there? The link you supplied, once again is a website ( poor form of evidence), which links to the same biased opinion based blog, where several of the stories are quoted by Ernst, who is the direct author of this blog with which we currently reside. Bias once again enters the equation.

            3.) Your third article is I believe an online newspaper link? Which is avery poor source of evidence. Where once again the bottom of the page is littered with links back to Ernst blog and online articles.

            4.) I do believe if Trovaflaxcin was so excellent, then why was it removed from all public use and completely abandoned by the US government for being dangerous?

            I read your final link also, also reading the systematic review hidden in the article. Please let me quote from it: ” CONCLUSION: There is no robust data concerning the incidence or prevalence of adverse reactions after Chiropractic. Further investigations are needed to assess definite conclusions regarding this issue”

            He also states that MOST adverse events were benign and transitory and the rates of serious adverse events were between 5/100,000 adjustments at the absolute worst he could find. Interstingly he found that they were as rare as 1.46/10,000,000 adjustments. Are you serious?

            SO YOU HAVE FAILED TO COMMENT ON MY REMAINING 7 SOURCES OF LITERATURE. YOU CRITIQUED 1 POORLY USING WEBSITES.

            MY FINAL QUESTION IS THUS. PLEASE COMMENT ON MY REFERENCES 1-2 DISCUSSING RATES OF MEDICAL ERROR AND INJURY, INCLUDING DEATHS.

            Please compare these against the rates which you just provided me from your last link.

            Lastly, anyone choosing to read this far. This argument shall not be won on a blog. Please once again read for yourselves, research actual research not opinion based blogs.

            Thank you. My time in my life and with family and my patients is too important to continue here.

            Cheers.

          • I stopped reading when you said that only published sources were credible…

            Do you know what a secondary source is?

        • Astrologers’ customers? Are you serious? That’s your argument? Well, how about we talk about actual facts then? The AMA recently concluded through a large study that the defects of chiropractic are immediately apparent on an MRI and they highly recommended chiropractic treatment before resorting to surgery and pain meds. Yes, the AMA. Look it up. And I find it funny that anyone could possibly say that chiropractic is “unsafe”- seeing as the ratio of injuries to chiropractic treatments is so low, it’s laughable. The ratio of injury to MD treatments? Ridiculously high. Which is why the MEDICAL association recommends seeking chiropractic help first. Did you do ANY research whatsoever, other than reading nonsensical articles on quack watch??

          • Brittdoc said:

            Astrologers’ customers? Are you serious? That’s your argument?

            No. Please try again.

            Well, how about we talk about actual facts then? The AMA recently concluded through a large study that the defects of chiropractic are immediately apparent on an MRI

            Well, how about citing your source then?

            And I find it funny that anyone could possibly say that chiropractic is “unsafe”- seeing as the ratio of injuries to chiropractic treatments is so low, it’s laughable. The ratio of injury to MD treatments? Ridiculously high. Which is why the MEDICAL association recommends seeking chiropractic help first. Did you do ANY research whatsoever, other than reading nonsensical articles on quack watch??

            Oh dear. Would you like me to point out the errors in your flawed, fallacious thinking or do you want to have another go?

          • Brittdoc, you are driving me nuts. I am scared for everyone of your patients. I have never read more posts from somone as close minded as you. YOU NEED TO BE MORE OPEN MINDED TO BE A DOCTOR. Also, STOP making everything about an MD and DC comparison, it sounds ridiculous. You sound very very bitter. MD and DC are completely two different things. An MD school blows any chiropractic school out of the water and you know it. My best friend goes to chiropractic school and is 12th quarter, he even admits and I’ve witnessed that his work load at Palmer has not held a candle to our other buddy who is at Keck School of Medicine at USC. I am really starting to become annoyed how DC’s always just want to compare or bash MD’s. You always see it’s so one sided too, chiros are very bitter with the AMA, yet it seems the AMA stays too busy to really care about the one-sides rivals. I’ve heard over a dozen chiropractors bad mouth doctors, but I’ve never heard and M.D waste time on the issue. The scopes are completely two different things. Chiropractors deal with muscular-skeletal injuries and pain management. If they were in a hospital they belong in rehabilitation, that’s it. They probably should be in hospitals and SNF’s. MD’s do all sorts of things at many different physiological levels. Again the scope is different you can’t even begin to compare. But you sound very confident in your two years of anatomy and love to keep saying you had to take the same pre reqs as any MD. Most medical prereqs are all the same!!! A P.A. who works under a doctor also has those prereqs. If a M.D with a specialty wanted to actually waste his/her time to compare the curriculums, you know it would be a joke. M.D programs are way more intense period. I know you chiro school has been difficult for you as you keep saying how tough it is, but don’t compare the programs. I also see one thing consistent throughout the chiropractic community, and for lack of a better work, brainwashing. I don’t know what they teach the first couple quarters, but I have never met a chiro, who doesn’t think that they can’t cure cancer. My buddy even thought Payton Mannings surgery wasn’t needed if he got right chiropractic treatment….the ignorance and close mindedness!! It just seems they make you guys believe that if everything is in align, you will NEVER be sick or ill. On another note, I work as a Paramedic, want to try and compare my scope. What can you adjust or rehab, when your patient has the back of their skull smashed in from a 15ft fall, has a pulse of 74/40 , airway is compromised by blood and skull. What in the world would a chiro do? What would a dermatologist or gynecologist do? I work more closely with the hospitals than I do rehab, and I have the upmost respect for the ER doctors and RN’s, they work very very hard stressful shifts, and very long hours, something DC’s don’t have to experience. I also have respect for chiropractors who work hard and push rehabilitation to new boundaries. Health care encompasses everything and everyone. It requires talents from different scopeS. The whole point of my tangent is just people on here need to STOP COMPARING THE FIELDS. They are different!! If anything as a country it should be a collective effort to pursue the best health and patient care possible. This bickering about Med School, chiro school, who knows what, needs to stop. And you Brittdoc are very guilty of being a little too one sided. Your comment of “you must be one of the millions of zombies who thinks allopathic is always right” is very juvenile, shows you have little or zero experience. Who are you talking about when you say the millions of zombies doctor? Are you referring to Americans, who are possible potential patients? I can tell you are all fired up on team Chiro, BEING A STUDENT, but that is just what you are. I know the curriculum is hard, you take some anatomy courses, get a few X-rays in, and next thing you know you are feeling all like a big bad doctor, but you really really need to humble yourself. Medicine and science is very humbling, seeing patients in conditions that I’ve seen them in is also very humbling. You really shouldn’t be making posts like you are making. You have not had the experience yet. Be a student, and learn to give a little more respect to the health care system as a
            whole, you are clearly very bitter with some aspects of it. Anyways best of luck out there, im sure in the future you will turn out to be a great chriopractor. To all the health care professionals out there stay safe and much appreciation to everyone.

  • Stupid post.
    This chiropractor obviously feels left out that he didn’t go to medical school instead. The author should go back to medical school so he can feel proud to be a “real” doctor.

    “3 and done”. Who came up with this rule, obviously this guy did. It’s basic physiology, fibrosis and repair of tissues…and that should be accomplished in 3 or less visits? Makes no sense.

    Get out of the profession!

  • Some of this I would agree with, many are overstepping.

    “Insurances don’t want to pay for chiropractic” is a joke. INSURANCE COMPANIES DON’T WANT TO PAY FOR ANYTHING!

    “Chiropractors sell vitamins at much more than their cost.” Yeah, of course they do. Did you know those “shady” supermarkets are doing the same thing? They get food and supplies at a wholesale cost and sell it for retail. Scumbags! Boycott safeway, it’s not safe! That’s what our “resellers license” is all about. Typical markup on any wholesale item in any business is 2X.

    Many chiropractors are under educated, over treating, and just not that good at what they do. I would say that many MD’s are just as bad as their job. The chiropractic field is difficult to be a part of because of the variety of approaches, and the large discrepancy between capable and incapable physicians, but overall, most of these comments are overstatements.

    AGREED WITH:

    1) SOME CHIROPRACTORS BASE THEIR PHILOSOPHY IN SUBLUXATION, but not all.
    4) Legitimate scope is very narrow. Yeah, we should stick with musculoskeletal conditions, and if other things get better, awesome.
    5) Chiropractic needs better research
    7) Lots of unnecessary services. Gosh, there are some practice management groups that teach over treatment, and it drives me bonkers.
    8) Cracking of the spine doesn’t mean much. Yeah, so what.
    10) We take too many Xrays. Totally agree.
    16) Just because someone swears by us doesn’t mean we help them. Totally agree.
    18) Lots of chiropractors do really strange things. Totally true. Some of it works, but a lot of it is strange.
    19) Don’t expect our licensing boards to protect you. Not well run organizations.

    Disagree
    2) Most every professional promises too much, in any field.
    3) Vastly inferior to MDs. A far narrower scope gives us far less to need to be aware of. Without learning all the drug complications, less time is needed. However, I would love to see a residency program for chiropractic students.
    6) Unless your diagnosis is obvious, get diagnosed elsewhere. Lots of chiropractors have good diagnosis, but may offer the wrong treatment plan. Or the right one, but I have SO MANY PATIENTS that come in with the wrong diagnosis from their MD or DO.
    9) If the first few visits don’t help, then more treatment wont either. This depends on the condition. Sometimes you have to work through some stuff… and it can be slow.
    11) Research doesn’t reflect what is happening in the offices… In some offices it does, in some it doesn’t, but that just means we need more research on all types.
    12) Neck manipulation is potentially dangerous. This has been debunked so many times. IT DOESN’T CAUSE STROKES! You can sprain someone’s neck, or give them headaches, or possibly paralyze them, but you can do the same with almost any treatment
    13) Most chiropractors don’t know much about nutrition. Maybe in your day, you old goat!
    14) We already brought this up. It is a business you moron.
    15) Chiropractors have no business treating children. What if it was for our scope of practice of musculoskeletal conditions?
    17) Insurance companies don’t want to pay. This was by far the dumbest statement I’ve read all week.
    20) The media rarely looks at what we are doing wrong. Or right. We don’t get hardly any press. So what, neither do dentists.

    Sorry you got so frustrated with the profession. I’m with you on that one. I’m fairly disappointed with the conclusions you’ve come to, and the actions you’ve taken, because if you get very much traction, you make it more difficult for chiropractors to succeed, even the ones that have a similar, musculo-skeletal view.

    • @ Max Lippman

      Re:

      13) Most chiropractors don’t know much about nutrition. Maybe in your day, you old goat!
      14) We already brought this up. It is a business you moron.

      For a professional, you’re not doing your credibility any favours.
      http://edzardernst.com/2012/12/ad-hominem-attacks-are-signs-of-victories-of-reason-over-unreason/

    • Hi Max, I appreciate your review of my top 20. I have only met chiropractors and reviewed their patient charts for the treatment of subluxations. Even when a strain/sprain is diagnosed the manipulation was for subluxations. Subluxations are mythical entities that were/are the foundation for the chiropractic profession. Since there is no scientific support for them the treatment of them is never medically necessary. At 57, I am an old goat already?

      Respectfully submitted,

      Preston

      • Preston, you are so incredibly wrong in saying chiropractors don’t know much about nutrition. Are you saying MDs know more?? MDs, the doctors who take zero nutrition courses? Do you know how many extremely difficult nutrition courses a chiropractor must take? Clearly not. My husband is a chiropractor and a nutrition expert who knows more about nutrition than any MD, dietitian or nutritionist you will ever meet. Chiropractors are trained specifically in nutritional counseling. Do you have ANY idea what the curriculum is like for this profession?! That’s a rhetorical question, of course. You don’t.

        • Brittdoc said:

          My husband is a chiropractor and a nutrition expert who knows more about nutrition than any MD, dietitian or nutritionist you will ever meet.

          I doubt that very much. But please feel free to prove me wrong.

        • Britt,

          Come on.

          My roommate is in food science. I looked at the chiropractic curriculumn. His is harder and he’s not even a doctor.

          Stop comparing your husband’s intellect to a medical doctor by arguing about the curriculumn. MD curriculumns are way harder. You know that. And don’t cite the number of credits again, because I already compared them between Palmer and Harvard and they’re not even close. (Harvard wins–go figure).

          Also I know you love “sources”. If you need a source on that one, go to Palmer’s website. They will give you their self-reported numbers. Do the same for Harvard. Obviously they’re not pretending to be something they’re not, (at least in this case) so you shouldn’t pretend either.

          I’m sure your husband is a great guy. But come on.

          And, you think he knows more than nutritionists? “Any nutritionist”?
          Well, the only advice I have is to not drink the kool-aid when he passes it around.

    • @ Max

      “12) Neck manipulation is potentially dangerous. This has been debunked so many times. IT DOESN’T CAUSE STROKES! You can sprain someone’s neck, or give them headaches, or possibly paralyze them, but you can do the same with almost any treatment”

      Is possibly paralyzing someone not considered potentially dangerous?

      – Kelly

      • Kelly, if you had done a simple google search, you’d know that a chiropractic just meant has NEVER paralyzed anyone. And secondly, it has NEVER caused stroke. Patients who have had strokes while getting adjusted were already in line to have a stroke, and would have no matter what they were doing. If you knew anything about medicine and physiology, adjustments CAN NOT CAUSE A STROKE. PERIOD.

        • the evidence shows otherwise, i’m afraid

        • Brittdoc said:

          Kelly, if you had done a simple google search, you’d know that a chiropractic just meant has NEVER paralyzed anyone.

          Why would anyone rely on a Google search to tell them whether a treatment was safe?

          • @Alan: “Why would anyone rely on a Google search to tell them whether a treatment was safe?”

            Because google will tell you about the dangers of cipro, for example. Apparently many US docs won’t. Google will also tell you that it (cipro) probably isn’t the best first choice for diverticulitis, UTI, etc. Again, apparently many US docs won’t. For whatever reason.

          • Good grief. Yes, there are some websites that provide good, reliable information on treatments, but there many that are not and it can be difficult for a lay person to know which is which if all you’re doing is going by the first page or so of results returned by Google.

          • Some reliable information (internet) is better than no reliable information (many US docs). When dealing with medications that can permanently alter or end your life, it’s a sorry state of affairs when you can spend a few minutes on the FDA website and be more informed about the dangers of flouroquinolones than the ER doc that prescribed it.

            Good grief indeed.

          • @jm
            Are you trying to make a point here? Seems like you have information on usage of ciprofloxacin by “some” doctors for non-listed indications? Is that relevant to the discussion? Did you do a study on this?

            Of course Ciprofloxacin has side effects. It is a powerful antibiotic and can be life saving. Only non-effective things have no side effects, like Ledum Palustre 30C or Reiki for ADHD. Some non-effective therapies even have side effects. Like Gua Sha, Cupping and Chiropractic cervical manipulation. (If you wish to contradict this please do so by providing credible evidence)
            This straw-man of yours has nothing to do with the subject of this discussion thread. Maybe you can tell us why chiropractors do not list their side effects, even the rare ones.

          • @ Bjorn – Before you put in your two cents, you should read all the words. I’ll sum up them for you:

            Alan asked why rely on google.
            So I told him.

            I used cipro as an example. (Sometimes people use examples.) Of course cipro has side effects. It would be nice if the person prescribing them knew what they were, and informed their patient. You actually disagree with that?

          • Interesting how alt-med aficionados reliably fail to comprehendwhen someone throws a sarcastic innuendo at them.

          • Don’t worry Bjorn – you’ll catch on eventually.

        • Actually, I personally know someone who is now a quadriplegic from a chriopractic manipulation. Care to change your tune??

  • After injuring my back, I’m getting kicked out of the house I’m renting because my new landlady is a chiro, furious, I wouldn’t make the proper chirping sounds when she offered to “help” me. Forcing her services on me is what it is. She just blew up yesterday, with no way to reason with, or console her. I’ve got to get out.

    They’re crazy – and they’ll screw anyone they suspect doesn’t go along.

  • There is a lot of research proving that techniques like CBP correct spinal posture problems. There is also a lot of research (by MDs) stating that postural issues cause problems health problems.

  • Thanks for the good work and helping some of us see the light! I saw a chiro for over 20 years and took my kids as well until I read your book “Trick or Treatment”. Having read that I decided to see if my back pain resolved itself after a week rather than going to a chiro. That was about 5 years ago – I’ve never been back. Just like many, I thought it was helping me and had no idea that it has not backed by science (after all, in Australia they get a science degree through a reputable university, though not for much longer in Sydney). I guess the first inkling that it was not what I thought came when the chiro wanted my two healthy under 10 year old children to get full body x-rays just to check out their spines. The radiology clinic refused to do it and looked at me like I was insane. I told the chiro and he said he knew of a small clinic that would do it. I was pretty disconcerted that a radiology clinic attached to a major hospital refused so I didn’t get it done. Then I got your book and that was it!! Thankyou! I’ve since read many books and blogs about alt med and it makes me furious to think of all the useless (and expensive) products I’ve had recommended by pharmacists (and even a general practitioner). I recently saw a government funded “Help your kids cope with their final exams” site that recommended an “amazing” product “Rescue Remedy”. Unbelievable!! At least I think I have finally convinced my mother not to let her chiro crack her neck after months of her protesting “but he’s very experienced and knows what he’s doing!”

  • So basically the author of the referenced book only took a few bad examples of chiropractors and making an over generalization about the profession as a whole? Very weak to say the least. You can do the exact thing about any profession. I personally know many MDs who seek chiropractic care.

    Because the author clearly has not done his research properly and only found the research he wanted to find, I hold no credit to the author or to this post.

    It did make for a good laugh though.

    • @ Matt

      Science will have the last laugh. If you read the book, you will discover that Preston Long’s approach wasn’t “very weak to say the least”. Throughout the book he references robust scientific research.

    • Who do you treat and how do YOU help them?

      I don’t know what your motivation in writing this book is other than to make money. I personally have been to both a chiropractor who released me after my insurance quit paying – and now to the DOCTOR who has treated me for the last 8 years for sympthoms of my degenerative disk, degenerative scoliosis and arthritis. He has never led me to believe he could cure me or make me better. He tells me I am defying the odds, but he says that most likely I will eventually need surgery.
      I could not be more pleased with the medical knowledge this man possesses and that which he professes not to know, or his candor – OR his ethics!

    • A few? Did you read the blurb at the beginning? He’s seen a lot of this, unfortunately.

      …and it’s documented.

  • My mother had a friend who swore by her chiropractor. She had her husband going for his back pain for months, I believer, and as it turned out he had cancer of the spine. Of course by the time he got to a REAL doctor, it was too advanced to do anything about.

    Also, I knew an elderly woman who went, and as far as I could tell, wasted her money on one every couple of weeks. For the first few days after the treatment she could barely move, and then she felt better for a couple of days, and then felt worse again until her next appointment.

    I personally wouldn’t let one touch me with a ten-foot pole.

    • God, that’s awful, Leslie. While we’re on anecdotes, a chiro (in Dublin) treated my 16-year-old niece for chronic pain. He talked about ‘subluxations’, made by bizarre clicking noises as he manipulated her spine and said all kinds of nonsense including that he could feel the problem leaving and it would just need a few more sessions. On about session 8 he said that unfortunately there’d been a regression and he could feel the problem had returned and it would, of course, need a few more sessions.

      She quite liked the sessions and said the treatment was relaxing but at no time was her pain relieved. This isn’t surprising as it turned out that her pain had nothing to do with so-called subluxations in the spine. It wasn’t even a muscular-skeletal problem but an extremely rare problem with her bile duct (now successfully treated by medical doctors). The chiro was talking BS and he must have known it.

      • yes he was talking BS; but did he know it? many don’t and are entirely convinced of their bizarre theories. and this conviction makes them much more dangerous for the unsuspecting patient

    • Do you know how many cancers are discovered because a chiropractor took “a too many, unnecessary” x ray???????????????

      Have you guys heard of the girl who suffered from 3rd degree burned when she dropped her coffee in the car?
      I hope no one drinks a coffee ever again! As a nation lets all make the switch to iced coffee! It’s the only logical solution because all coffee served hot is the Devil with a capital D

      • And do you know how likely x-rays are to cause cancer?

        Maybe they didn’t discover the cancer. Maybe they just blasted enough x-rays through people until they knew they must have cancer. And everyone heralded them as geniuses.
        (Trying to mimick your awful sarcasm).

  • What a joke of an article.

  • Twenty Things Most Medical Doctors Won’t Tell You
    Have you ever consulted a medical doctor? Are you thinking about seeing one? Do you care whether your tax and health-care dollars are spent on worthless medical treatment? If your answer to any of these questions is yes, there are certain things you should know.

    1. Medical theory and practice are often not based on the body of knowledge related to health, disease, and health care that has been widely accepted by the scientific community.
    Most medical doctors believe that the cause of disease is disordered biology that must be corrected chemically with a variety of medications or physically by surgery. MDs often overlook the power of the human body to seek health through physiologic mechanisms of homeostasis. Drugs and surgery would be completely worthless were it not for the human body’s inherent ability to heal itself. Most medical doctors believe that their interventions are the cause of healing. A small percentage of medical doctors realize that health and healing require much more than the correct drug or the best surgical procedure. They are technically very good at curing, but not so good at being healers.

    2. Many medical doctors promise too much.
    While many modern medical interventions are truly life saving, many others contribute little to lengthened life span or improved physical capacity. For example, a recent “breakthrough” in pancreatic cancer treatment has shown improved survival from 4 months to 6 and a t a cost of $6000 to $8000 per month. The most common forms of treatment administered by medical doctors are drugs and surgery. Most drugs have side effects and many surgeries risk serious complications. Medical interventions have recently emerged as the third leading cause of death in the US. Medicine is largely silent with regard to the lethal effect of modern medicine.
    Review of pharmaceutical websites and daily media advertising reveals remarkable claims of benefit for a variety of medications with only minimal discussion of costs, side effects, unintended consequences and problems associated with taking multiple drugs in combinations (polypharmacy). Surgeons routinely downplay risks of the surgeries that they recommend.

    3. Medical education produces highly technically competent doctors who know very little about people.
    Medical education requires dedication to intense study of science-based course work, but little in the way of personal or inter-personal awareness. Medical doctors’ training in academic medical centers focuses almost exclusively on high tech intensive interventions facilitated by ever more sophisticated and complex technology. However many patients and their families are not very satisfied with their care and once they leave the hospital, they fail to carry through with doctors’ orders. Compliance with medical treatment plans is very poor because patients do not or cannot follow through with the recommendations from medical doctors because of cost, lack of social support or the ability to comprehend detailed instructions. Doctors who take the time to understand their patient’s motivations, circumstances and preferences have much better health outcomes and patient satisfaction.
    Unfortunately these doctors are a rare commodity.
    4. A medical specialist’s scope is actually very narrow.
    The health care system in the US encourages increasing specialization by doctors. Payment mechanisms favor care and procedures performed by specialists. Unfortunately increased specialization has led to a loss of a whole person perspective that most patients want and need. It is said that if your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. If you are an orthopedic surgeon, every musculoskeltal ache and pain has a surgical solution.
    Each specialist’s treatment is relevant only to a narrow range of ailments. But some specialists forget that their interventions can influence the course of nearly everything else in their patients life.
    5. Very little of what medical doctors do has been studied.
    Estimates from health policy experts suggest that as little as 15% of medical interventions are fully supported by solid scientific research. Others put that figure much higher, but nobody asserts that all of medicine is based on high quality research. Although modern medicine has been around since about 1925 as a result of the Flexner Report on medical education, only some of what medical doctors do meets the scientific standard through solid high quality research. Medical apologists claim to be the only health profession that is evidence based and they try to sound scientific to counter their detractors, but very little high quality research actually supports what medical doctors do. Review of the evidence for medicine as summarized for example in the Cochrane Collaboration shows that many mainstream and frequently used medical interventions have only fain to poor evidence supporting them.
    6. Unless your diagnosis is obvious, it’s best to get diagnosed elsewhere.
    Misdiagnosis in medicine is common, involves millions of patients and trillions of dollars. Rates of misdiagnosis range from 15-25%. In certain specialties, oncology for example, diagnoses are incorrect over 40% of the time. Some attribute the frequency of misdiagnosis to over-confidence on the part of medical doctors. Medical education only rewards clinical certainty and questioning a diagnosis is resisted. Patients who request a second opinion are often seen as threatening to a medical doctor. From a patient’s perspective any diagnosis and proposed treatment plan should prompt questions to the doctor and unsatisfactory answers should result in seeking another opinion.

    7. We offer lots of unnecessary services.
    Many medical doctors provide unnecessary services. It is estimated that as much as 30% of health care is “waste.” The Institute of Medicine identifies waste as “spending on services that lack evidence of producing better health outcomes compared to less-expensive alternatives; inefficiencies in the provision of health care goods and services; and costs incurred while treating avoidable medical injuries…”

    8. Prescribing a drug or performing a surgery often doesn’t mean much.
    The medical ritual of a doctor visit, taking a drug or undergoing a surgery often works for reasons other than the biological response to the treatment. Most medical studies show positive results from placebo interventions. Sham knee surgery has been shown to be as effective as the real thing. Sugar pills can produce remarkable therapeutic effects. So the benefits of medical interventions have a 1 in 3 chance of having nothing to do with the technology.
    9. If the first treatment doesn’t help you, more treatment probably won’t help either.
    Much of medical practice is based on trial-and-error. Medical doctors take their best diagnostic guess and propose a drug or a surgery based on their specialist training, practice guideline, the newest drug or what will be paid for. The simple approach of “watchful waiting” is usually disregarded in favor of the medical propensity to “do something.” Interventions of behavior or lifestyle change take too much of a doctor’s time. Writing a prescription or doing a procedure are much easier and they are often what the patient expects, regardless of what actually may be the least invasive, the least risky and the lowest cost.
    If the first spinal surgery or epidural steroid injection doesn’t work, the second, third, or forth are equally unlikely to help either.
    10. We take too many x-rays and other imaging studies.
    The use of diagnostic x-rays, especially CT scans, is results in patients developing cancer later in life. Estimates by researchers at the National Cancer Institute found that 29,000 future cancer cases could be attributed to the 72 million CT scans performed in the country in 2007.
    MRIs, while much safer that x-ray radiation, have problems of their own. In a study of 221 patients who had MRIs, the results showed that only 5.9% actually needed to have an MRI done. The remaining 94.1% of the patients sacrificed their time and money. Much overuse of MRI is driven by doctors who view the test as a short cut to a diagnosis. Many patients demand an MRI to know what is “really going on.” A recent published study of MRI for low back pain found only about half of the studies were performed for justifiable reasons. A recent article in Spine concluded that “Early MRI without indication has a strong iatrogenic effect in acute LBP, regardless of radiculopathy status. Providers and patients should be made aware that when early MRI is not indicated, it provides no benefits, and worse outcomes are likely.”

    11. Research on medical practice does not reflect what takes place in most medical facilities.
    Research studies that look at medical interventions are generally done under strict protocols that protect patients from harm. The results reflect what happens when treatments are done on patients who are appropriately screened—usually by medical teams that exclude people with conditions that would make the treatment dangerous. But these results do not reflect what typically happens when patients are treated. The medical marketplace is a mess because many medical doctors ignore research findings and evidence based clinical practice guidelines. Instead they subject their patients to procedures that are based on their own opinions, what is customary in their community or are just plain unnecessary and senseless.
    Researchers at Dartmouth have looked at the use of medical procedures across the US. They have found wide variation in medical practices from on geographic region to another. This variation cannot be explained on the basis of the severity of illnesses suffered by the patients. Rather one community of doctors are likely to use a procedure twice as often as their colleagues somewhere else. But doing twice as much does not translate to better outcomes for patients. They get twice as much care (and we spend twice as much money) for the same results.
    Most medical specialties have evidence based clinical practice guidelines that use the scientific literature to inform clinical practice. Unfortunately these guidelines are frequently not followed and patients do not get the care that science says is best. Some estimates show as little as only 30% of patients in hospital receive care that is recommended by these evidence based guidelines. Treatments for certain conditions are even worse. A recent study found that primary care providers treating garden-variety low back pain followed scientifically based recommendations for first line medication only about 25% of the time.

    12. Medical treatment is potentially dangerous.
    Medical treatment is the third leading cause of death in the US, just behind heart disease and cancer. Up to 400,000 people die each year because of medical care.

    13. Most medical doctors don’t know much about nutrition.
    Medical doctors learn little about clinical nutrition during their schooling. Many offer what they describe as “nutrition counseling.” But this typically consists of superficial advice about eating less fat and various schemes to sell you supplements and prescribe drugs that are high-priced and unnecessary.

    14. Medical doctors who prescribe drugs are influenced by drug companies.
    The relationships between the pharmaceutical industry and the medical doctors who prescribe them is troubled by conflicts of interest, ethical lapses and, of course, money. Recent legislative regulations, ethics statements and professional education reforms have emerged to correct what can only be described as the too-cozy relationship between pharmaceutical manufacturers (“big pharma”) and medicine. While she has her critics, Marcia Angel, MD, the former editor of the mainstream medical journal The New England Journal of Medicine, blows the cover of the relationship between big pharma, the FDA and practicing doctors. She describes a well-oiled industrial machine that has discovered a way to make tons of money in the guise of helping patients. Doctors are all-to-wiling participants in this scheme beginning in medical school and moving into practice with generous perks, free gifts and other incentives to prescribe the newest (and usually most expensive) drug or medical device.
    15. Medical doctors often have no business treating young children.
    Many medical procedures have been studied only in adults. Unfortunately children are just “litte adults.”

    16. The fact that patients swear by us does not mean we are actually helping them.
    Satisfaction is not the same thing as effectiveness. Many people who believe they have been helped had conditions that would have resolved without treatment. Some have had treatment for dangers that did not exist but were said by the chiropractor to be imminent. Many chiropractors actually take courses on how to trick patients to believe in them. (See Chapter 8)

    17. Insurance companies don’t want to pay for many medical services.
    Some medical specialists love to brag that their services are covered by Medicare and most insurance companies. However, this coverage for many procedures has been achieved though political action rather than scientific merit. For example bariatric surgery was developed over the last decade but has not really become common until various states have mandated coverage for the procedure. The evidence that supports these procedures is scant. End-stage renal disease has been enshrined in Medicare coverage since an act of Congress in 1973. The US spent $32.9 billion for treating almost 600,000 patients, a ten-fold increase since 1980. It costs between $60,00 and over $80,000 per patient per year for this treatment. While one can’t argue that this cost is not necessary, after all it keeps these people alive, one can’t help but wonder if that $32 billion might be better spent.
    18. Lots of Medical doctors do really strange things.
    Medical quackery has a long and rich history. It is not confined to the past, but is alive and well, even in the age of modern, evidence based medicine. Contemporary medical education trains doctors to be over-confident in their skills and knowledge. While this sometimes leads to significant innovation,it can also lead to weird medical treatments offered by some medical doctors to willing and gullible patients.
    The medical cosmetic industry is one current “specialty” that offers “treatments” that are only questionably necessary, not without significant risk and delivered for no other reason than patients want it and doctors have figured out how to deliver it. Liposuction, laser face lifts, breast augmentation and, most recently, genital cosmetic surgery (called vaginal rejuvenation), challenge any consideration of these procedures as rational medicine.

    19. Don’t expect medical licensing boards to protect you.
    Many medical doctors who serve on chiropractic licensing boards harbor the same misbeliefs and biases that are rampant among their colleagues. This means, for example, that most boards are unlikely to discipline medical doctors for diagnosing and treating imaginary conditions such as the need for “vaginal rejuvenation.” Medical boards are usually dominated by doctors and representation by lay persons is often discouraged. Even if a licensing board chooses to take action against a rogue doctor, the legal system often moves so slowly that the doctor continues in practice and harms more patients while the board dithers in legal limbo.

    20. The media rarely look at what we do wrong.
    The media rarely if ever address medical nonsense. The medical profession’s hammer lock on the media, while not complete, does have the general public convinced that they are in the business for the benefit of patients and the good of the public. Doctors are usually seen as selfless professional only doing what is right for their patients. They are not businessmen and women who make their decisions based on economics, income and profit.
    Many politicians and media continue the fiction that the US has the best medical care in the world. The outcomes however suggest a much different story. The US spends more than any other developed nation on earth but has outcomes that are not consistent with the 16% of GDP that is medical care. Medical care now exceeds housing costs for the average American family. Recent Federal and state efforts at health care reform are the political and social response to an unsustainable trajectory of rising medical costs.

  • The absolute ignorance of this article is insane. Its almost funny. Most, if not all points are completely biased and manipulated to represent your opinion. Which is all this is. You have 6 references for 20 points. Wow. One reference is from S. Barrett (are you kidding me), another is from Ernst E (once again, are you kidding me). Another two of the references are 15+ years old. Its funny how you only look at research that supports your opinion, and seemingly forget the remainder which debates it.

    Chiropractors are 5 years university trained. Have an enviable safety record (compare it against medicine). Enviable patient satisfaction record. Are registered and regulated by professional bodies nationally. We must continue to improve our self and our skills in order to maintain registered.

    Many of you will be aware that the risk of injury in hospitals and reported adverse drug reactions has escalated over time and it is estimated in the (1) British Medical Journal 2000 (no recent figures available) that as many as 18,000 people die every year as a result of medical error in Australia, while 50,000 people suffer a permanent injury. These figures are estimated to now be significantly higher.

    More recent statistics from the Therapeutic Goods Act of Australia (2) state that there were 233,300 reports ofsuspected adverse drug reactions in 2010. This does not include deaths or injuries attributable to medical care in 2010 nor does it include complaints relating to misconduct, advertising or communication issues.

    In that same year (2010) there were 11 million estimated visits to chiropractors within Australia (3) and a totalof only 41 reported treatment complaints made about chiropractors. (4) (There were no alleged deaths or seriouscomplications in this time frame reported in the Australian literature.)

    1.) Weingart SN, Wilson RM, Gibberd RW, Harrison B.Epidemiology of medical error. BMJ 2000; 320(77): 4-7

    .2.) Adverse Drug Reactions, Australian Statistics on MedicinesV1.0 September 2011 Online.http://www.tga.gov.au/pdf/medicines-statistics-2010.pdf

    3.) Chiropractors Association of Australia (CAA) records (2010)

    Its always funny how certain things can seem “unsafe” when they are compared against nothing.

    Shouldn’t this whole debate not be about shaming any one particular profession and more be about working together to improve patient outcomes? Because believe it or not that’s what its all about at the end of the day…the patient and their improvements. Not your ego.

    People keep reading and researching for yourselves, don’t rely on incredibly biased blogs/articles like this that push a persons opinion on you.

    Finally I leave you with this; Voltaire once wrote in an essay on tolerance: “Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so too.”

    Article did make me laugh though.

  • I love chiropractic care, it helps adjust my hips which are out of alignment and cause me major back issues a few times a year. What I not love it having to go to three-four chiropractic office before I find one that doesn’t want to put some infrared laser on my skin to help “heal my muscle tension” or try and get me to buy their overpriced “homeopathic” sugar pills. Good list, what would be nice to see then is a list of appropriate things it is useful for… Like legit misalignment issues. Good work! I’d go to your office anyday if I could!

    • It would be better and cheaper to do strengthening exercises for your hips. A physio or biokineticist can help with that.

      • Chiropractors can and do teach rehabilitation and strengthening exercises.

      • How can one determine that strengthening exercises for your hips is a more beneficial treatment for Mr. Steen over chiropractic care? Are you Jesus? Do you know everything?

        This man could have lytic metastasis in his appendicular skeleton and once he puts those hips under increased load (by exercising) he could ________ (insert a bad outcome)

        And just some clarification on terminology (the science of terms) because I am not Jesus and I do not know everything (for example your background and it’s competency or lack thereof in diagnosis):

        Metastasis = the spread of neoplasm from one region of the body to another. The defining characteristic of cancer!
        Lytic = destruction, breaking down, etc
        Appendicular = pertaining to bones attached to the trunk

    • Srer you in the UK? If you are, why haven’t yOu asked your GP for free physiotherAPY?

      • Im not about the UK, but I know is Aus you can ask your GP for 5 free chiro visits also.

        • The amount of physiotherapy to which you are enritled in the UK is unlimited – it goes on unitil you are better. I wonder why anyone would choose to pay for something with a less than certain reputation when they can get proper treatment for free. I do not understand the atraction of chiropractic when ther are better and cheaper alternatives to hand. This is I suppose the essential part of the argument – why choose this in the first place? That’a an honest question; I really don’t understand what makes people go for it.

  • Overall, this topic has a lot of exaggerated truth in it relating to the chiropractic profession. As it has been pointed out by previous replies the same could be done regarding medicine, physical therapy, massage, law, accounting, every profession known to the world!

    Everyone guess what! The world of medicine has a term called…wait for it… SUBLUXATION…what?! GTFO!
    Term has different applications and meaning for different professions but that is true for a lot of terms in the english language.
    There are a lot of Medical Doctors in the world that profess the benefits of Doctor of Chiropractic care. There are a lot of Doctors of Chiropractic that profess the benefits of Medical Doctors care.

    Next the author would have you believe he spent his own money writing a book to educate the masses and save the millions of people suffering from a wide array of adverse effects and potential death at the hands of their current Doctor of Chiiropractic. And that any monetary benefits to publishing a book and having 13 people buy it is a necessary evil and that he would “give it away for free if I could”.

    The term Doctor can refer to any 1 of the following (or multiple): 1. Personal title 2. Fictional characters 3. Film and television 4. Music 5. nickname…. etc

    So can someone please explain to me what a “REAL” doctor is?? A physician isn’t a “real” doctor, they are a Medical Doctor. A veterinarian isn’t a “real” doctor, they are a Doctor of Venterinary Medicicine. A dentist isn’t a “real” doctor, they are a Doctor of Dental Medicine. A chiropractic isn’t a “real” doctor, they are a Doctor of Chiropractic. a physical therapist isn’t a “real” doctor, they are a Doctor of Physical Therapy. A surgeon isn’t a “real” doctor, they are a specialized (very specialized albeit) physician with a Medical Doctorate degree.
    I could go on for days! People need to get their facts straight. Your run of the mill GP (general practitioner) is not a “real” doctor, they are an individual with low board scores, entrance exams, etc that did not permit them to specialize in cardiology, gastroenterology, etc and has completed a 1 year residency program (not 3-5) with a Medical Doctorate degree.

    You can read this anti-chiropractic article, book bathroom reader and the many others out there and believe it 10,000%
    You could read an anti-vaccine, anti-pharmaceutical, anti-medicine article, book, bathroom reader and many others that are out there and believe it 10,000%
    You could read a pro-chiropractic article, book, bathroom reader and the many others that are out there and believe it 10,000%
    You could read a pro-vaccine article (such as the one that talks about 100,000 vaccines is perfectly healthy for a child and the subsequent challenge to that CEO to take 1000 vaccines in a 2 week time frame for $1 million if he survived. Needless to say the CEO did not accept the challenge), pro-pharmaceutical, pro-medicine book, bathroom reader and believe it 10,000%

    You could believe that 10,000% is a “real” percentage! Is it? Is it not? Are you even smart enough to know? Have you learnt enough in your unsatisfactory, unimportant, sometimes nonexistent, careers to know much of anything?

    By the way, the answer is that it is a real percentage but used incorrectly (for emphasis purposes) during the examples listed above. You cannot believe in anything more than 100%. For that matter if you only believe in something 50%, 80%, 10%, 99.8% do you really believe in it at all? However, prices, products, values, efficiency, etc can increase 10,000%.
    So yes it is a true percentage.

    What this reply/posting is meant for anyone reading it to discover is that no matter what your making an opinion on, whether it be chiropractic, medicine, vaccine, mortgages, hookers, law, sewing, dog grooming, etc you MUST EDUCATE YOURSELF FIRST! I repeat, EDUCATE YOURSELF! Don’t have this piece of shit chiropractor educate you on chiropractic. Don’t have a Medical Doctor educate you on chiropractic. Educate yourself and then you can make an educated opinion for you, yourself, and you ONLY! That last part is important, for YOU ONLY.

    I wasted far too much of my life that I will never get back writing all this but that was only after I wasted more of my life reading this article and replies. There are far too many patients in acute and chronic pain or suffering from numerous ailments that I need to focus my attention on. Because guess what…this guy’s book solved 0 problems in the world and got that world 0% closer to solving it’s problems. Same goes for this reply and every other reply. I am a chiropractor (not sure what those of you reading this ASSumed about me) and I dont care what “real” doctor gets a patient better as long as that patient becomes healthier, can be an active part in their own lives and the lives of their loved ones and contributes to his/her community in a positive way.
    Do you know how many people suffer from “loneliness”? They (as in big pharma, not physicians) make pills for that, you could probably visit the chiropractor and feel better, or a dentist, or the optometrist. You could also probably pay a prostitute for their “services” and feel better, feel much much better….maybe they are the “real” doctors.

    FYVM

    • No animals were harmed in the making of that post.
      I hope I did not offend anyone personally or any one profession, that was not the intent. I especially want to expand on the comments about a GP…I know many of them personally and some of them are absolutely amazing and CHOSE to be a GP and could talk circles around a more “specialized” physician, me, and other chiros too. I also know some “specialized” physicians who aren’t worth their weight in salt and the same goes for some GPs. I also know chiros who can talk circles around GPs, “specialized” physicians, etc. My comments were just another example (of many) for exaggerated, biased, unnecessary, non-peer reviewed, look hard enough and you’ll find it, waste of my time, quite possibly completely false, I’d rather shoot my dog, comments, truths, facts, lies, etc, etc, etc.

      #hopeyouhaveonlysold13booksmakingmethebestguesserever
      #mywifeishoti’mgoingtobed

    • @JDM

      Don’t have this piece of shit chiropractor educate you on chiropractic. Don’t have a Medical Doctor educate you on chiropractic.

      For your sake I rather hope you were dead drunk when you wrote this, even if it does not seem like you stumbled much on the keyboard? Then you might hav an excuse, albeit partial.
      By this outrageous drivel you managed to terminated any respect for the pseudonym JDM on this blog. Any posts under that pseudonym will not be read by me at least. Your twaddle is not only an insult to your colleague and to Dr. Ernst but to all us readers of this forum.
      At the same time you have put a very deep dent in whatever respect and credibility the proponents of chiropactic have left. Your lame attempt at a retraction in your next post does not help. Be a man and apologize under your real identity.

      • Bjorn…it was not a retraction…it was an expansion because not all GPs are bad or stupid. I used them as an example in the same way DCs were used in the article.

  • In response to Lachlan’s comment to me on Monday 21 October at 23:41:
    I can only conclude that you’re not too keen on the precautionary principle as it applies to chiropractic.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precautionary_principle

    • Now your using Wikipedia as a resource? Hahaha I can see you’ve written a lot of valued researched based papers. Wikipedia is not a source you can use for references. Anyone can make “edits” to any topic presented on Wikipedia. Yes the website is good in taking down nonsense information of someone decides to mess with a certain topic. But if an author can write professionally and intelligently they can author content on that website. Like @Lachlan has stated previously. Go find peer-reviewed sources from major publications. JMPT, JAMA, etc.

      • JDM,

        If you don’t respect Wikipedia you probably don’t know how it works.
        Ever see those tiny little numbers? They’re references. Those are articles. Peer-reviewed articles. Wikipedia is a secondary source. There is no reason to assume it is not reputable if it is accurately copied over.
        It’s not like people just hop on there and type whatever they want.

        Also you never even denied what the article said. Apprently this “awful source” was correct? Strange, isn’t it?

  • JDM wrote: “Now your using Wikipedia as a resource? Hahaha”

    I don’t see anything wrong with using it as an introduction to understanding the precautionary principle. As for the rest of your comment, there’s ample scientific evidence in defence of my arguments in the links which I have already provided.

    • I think BW is right: to explain a term, Wiki is fine and certainly more evidence that the average chiro seems to muster.

      • Do you have any evidence for that claim?

      • Wikipedia is not only a good introduction to a topic, links to it are trusted because the website is well known for not having adverts and malware. For science- and evidence-based topics it is at least as accurate as encyclopaedias such as Encyclopaedia Britannica and it is considerably more accurate in many areas, such as optical physics.

        It matters not if the Wikipedia article contains errors because anyone with an inkling to learn the truth can explore the sections towards the end of each articles. In this particular case, the sections are:

        Criticisms (3 subheadings)
        See also (24 links to further reading)
        References (31)
        Other publications (14)
        External links (21)

        One of the most commonly used tricks is to discredit a source because it has at least once contained an error. JDM is an imperfect human being who makes errors therefore, by this principle, JDM’s comments can be equally discredited and laughed at.

  • I have no use for Chiropractor adjustments any more, and it’s not because of this article…this article just confirmed what I have believed for a long time. I had a Chiropractor put a harness around my head with a chin strap , and a wooden handle attached … he used the wooden handle to stretch my neck. But he didn’t just stretch gently. He had another adult hold my legs so I wouldn’t slide. While this adult person was bearing down on my legs, the Chiropractor jerked my neck back so hard that the person holding my legs couldn’t keep me from sliding toward the Chiropractor that was doing the jerking. And I’m a 190 pound man. Talk about QUACKERY. I will never let him put his dangerous hands on me again. I let him do this several times and now my neck is sprained with soft tissue injury…it constantly hurts and there’s nothing I can do about it.

  • Minimum Required Hours

    Chiropractic College Medical School
    456 Anatomy/Embryology. 215
    243 Physiology 174
    296 Pathology 507
    161 Chemistry/Biochemistry 100
    145 Microbiology 145
    408 Diagnosis 113
    149 Neurology 171
    56 Psychology/Psychiatry 323
    66 Obstetrics & Gynecology 284
    271 X-ray 13
    168 Orthopedics 2
    2,419 Total Hours for Degree 2,047

    In the end there are always good doctors and poor doctors regardless of physician designation (MD, DC, DO, DPT). The difference is in the treatment.

    In an ideal world, doctors, regardless of designation, work together for the management of the patient. It appears this profession (physicians) is evolving more and more and care is better co- managed when applicable.

  • Did you forget this Blue wode?

    @ Blue Wode.

    Thank you for engaging in a scientific debate.

    Firstly, several things must be mentioned before continue. I referenced 3 quality references in my first comment. 5 quality references in my second comment. For which you combatted with links to opinion based Websites.

    Any reader reading this comment, must first understand that websites are poor forms of evidence, and any scientist will not hold a website to high credibility or validity. Why? Because very often they are based on that authors opinion and are not assessed or peer reviewed like an article in a reputable journal.

    Now we may continue.

    Secondly, my remaining 7 pieces of peer reviewed literature remain to be critiqued by yourself. Why? Please provide supporting literature for your comments.

    Your first link is to a website (poor level of evidence). This website is clearly biased towards your opinion considering the propaganda and advertising on the site. Which critiques cassidys 2008 paper. Most of which is opinion based via Ernst. If follow the link further to the next page. It leads you to 2 more supporting papers of cassidy et al. One (if you choose to read them) showed a decrease utilization of chiropractic care in certain regions of canada with an increase occurence of VBA stroke in those same regions?
    What is your response to this?

    2.) Your second comment and link talks about No adverse event reporting system. In AUS we have the Chiropractic Board of Australia AND AHPRA who regulate us and take complaints/adverse events. Just the exact same as a medical board and registrational board would. So unsure of your comment there? The link you supplied, once again is a website ( poor form of evidence), which links to the same biased opinion based blog, where several of the stories are quoted by Ernst, who is the direct author of this blog with which we currently reside. Bias once again enters the equation.

    3.) Your third article is I believe an online newspaper link? Which is avery poor source of evidence. Where once again the bottom of the page is littered with links back to Ernst blog and online articles.

    4.) I do believe if Trovaflaxcin was so excellent, then why was it removed from all public use and completely abandoned by the US government for being dangerous?

    I read your final link also, also reading the systematic review hidden in the article. Please let me quote from it: ” CONCLUSION: There is no robust data concerning the incidence or prevalence of adverse reactions after Chiropractic. Further investigations are needed to assess definite conclusions regarding this issue”

    He also states that MOST adverse events were benign and transitory and the rates of serious adverse events were between 5/100,000 adjustments at the absolute worst he could find. Interstingly he found that they were as rare as 1.46/10,000,000 adjustments. Are you serious?

    SO YOU HAVE FAILED TO COMMENT ON MY REMAINING 7 SOURCES OF LITERATURE. YOU CRITIQUED 1 POORLY USING WEBSITES.

    MY FINAL QUESTION IS THUS. PLEASE COMMENT ON MY REFERENCES 1-2 DISCUSSING RATES OF MEDICAL ERROR AND INJURY, INCLUDING DEATHS.

    Please compare these against the rates which you just provided me from your last link.

    Lastly, anyone choosing to read this far. This argument shall not be won on a blog. Please once again read for yourselves, research actual research not opinion based blogs.

    Thank you. My time in my life and with family and my patients is too important to continue here.

    Cheers.

    SPANKED>

  • lol. So you have no answer.You have been shown to be un-Scientific and biased in your answer and have very little in the way of a response.

  • ” I referenced 3 quality references in my first comment. 5 quality references in my second comment. For which you combatted with links to opinion based Websites.

    Any reader reading this comment, must first understand that websites are poor forms of evidence, and any scientist will not hold a website to high credibility or validity. Why? Because very often they are based on that authors opinion and are not assessed or peer reviewed like an article in a reputable journal.”
    Very valid points that you have dodged quite nicely.

    “SO YOU HAVE FAILED TO COMMENT ON MY REMAINING 7 SOURCES OF LITERATURE. YOU CRITIQUED 1 POORLY USING WEBSITES.” The usual Blue wode modus operandi.

    • @ fedup

      If you adhere fully to proper CPD, then you should know that the precautionary principle tells us that the risks of neck manipulation currently outweigh its (perceived) benefits, and that robust scientific data are increasingly revealing that spinal manipulation for low back pain is no better than taking paracetamol and/or doing exercises. Unfortunately, chiropractic cannot be recommended for the latter due to problems with standardisation which encompasses the former – i.e. many chiropractors continue to manipulate their low back patients’ necks based on the (false) belief that such ‘adjustments’ act as a panacea. There is no more to add.

      • Good thing we aren’t taught to manipulate necks. Although I am fully aware that many chiros do that but mostly because they lack the skills and dexterity to adjust the cervical spine. Physical Therapists manipulate. Chiropractors adjust. There is a difference but you have to be educated in this field in order to understand.
        It’s been said before…there are good doctors and poor doctors, good lawyers and poor lawyers, etc. even though they have the same degree and training certain people will always be inferior in skill and knowledge to others. A good chiropractor will not strain muscles of the cervical spine. As far as a VAD is concerned you can cause that yourself by checking your blind spot while driving! Although if you’ve ever driven n America you’d realize not many do that :/
        Find a good chiropractor who ADJUSTS SPECIFICALLY and SKILLFULLY. I wish they were the majority but unfortunately they are not.

        • @ JDM

          Yes, there is a difference JDM, but you’re forgetting to inform readers about its reality:

          QUOTE
          It is important to understand, however, that only chiropractors use spinal manipulation as a form of “adjustment”, that is, as a treatment for “subluxations”. This is never legitimate because the chiropractic subluxation does not exist. This distinction cannot be overemphasized: even if a chiropractor claims to be treating, for example, back pain with spinal manipulation, that use is legitimately indicated only if the diagnosis is supported by evidence-based criteria that indicate that manipulation may help. Subluxation-based diagnoses provide no legitimate basis for manipulating spines.

          Ref: http://www.scienceinmedicine.org/policy/papers/Chiropractic.pdf

          FYI, the paper linked to above is reprinted in full in Preston Long’s book on chiropractic abuse.

        • JDM said:

          Find a good chiropractor who ADJUSTS SPECIFICALLY and SKILLFULLY.

          How would someone do that?

        • That’s EXACTLY what I am looking for after my fabulous chiro retired. He was SKILLED, specific, exact, never made a mistake, never hurt me and ALWAYS improved my health, it’s been a NIGHTMARE trying to find a chiro as good as he was…
          What do I look for??!!

          • @Trik

            Perhaps it is better to approach this task by elimination.

            In the first place you can safely eliminate distance chiropractors. It is self-evident that they must either be out of their mind or totally corrupt… or both.

            I would avoid antivaccinist and germ theory denialist chiropractors (there are many). Such muddled beliefs can hardly be compatible with good therapeutic abilities.

            Eliminate all those chiropractors who advertise adjuvant pseudo-therapies like homeopathy, aromatherapy, ear candling, shiatsu, Ayurveda, flower remedies, gua sha, cupping, reiki, reflexology, visceral manipulation and other magical woo.
            They are unlikely to be good chiropractors if they have to add silly-woo to their manipulative skills in order to attract patients.

            Then eliminate anyone who insists on wringing your neck. Apart from not having been proven to be useful, it is known to be a russian roulette in rare cases able to injure your vertebrobasilar arteries with catastrophic results. It is simply not worth the risk.

            Then eliminate anyone who says that children should be brought to a chiropractor for colic, bedwetting, birth trauma, asthma, tummy aches or whatever. More and more chiropractors are turning to children to fill their practice. Tired toddler-parents are an easy pray for placebo-by-proxy quacks.

            Then eliminate those who say that chiropractic can help with infertility, indigestion, allergies, immune system problems, thyroid dysfunction, bowel dysfunction and other ailments totally unrelated to the state of the spine. These notions are based on the imaginary “subluxation theory”.
            Many chiropractors wisely reject this fallacious theory, which was invented by DD Palmer in 1895.

            And at last you should avoid what I call “serial chiropractors” who try to convince you that even when you are well you should drop by regularly, even weekly! for a 2-minute session of manhandling your spine, just to keep you (and the chiropractors economy) in good shape.

            Now, what does that leave us with?

  • Thats it Blue wode, ignore the evidence put infront of you because you don’t agree with it. Please comment on the “7 SOURCES OF LITERATURE” you have ignored. You constantly go on about providing evidence and like a true “cough” skeptic when given some that is opposite to your views you just ignore it.

  • 21. Chiropractors visit homeopaths for their healthcare, because homeopaths are specialist naturopaths, which can treat any ailment including injuries and shock (website say so!/reciprocating lack of references), without medications, without adverse effects, without contraindications and all without a university degree or a clue. Fortunately, chiropractors understand that homeopaths have a large non-educational-I-bought-this-expensive-magical-crystal-from-a-siberian-shaman debt that they need to pay off.

    (Its dangerous and sad that people in alternative medicine prey on the vulnerabilities of the less educated. Its even sadder that some believe in what they are doing is right. Good on you Ernst Edzard for keeping people honest!)

  • I find this true for lots of the healthcare professions. There are good and bad practitioners everywhere. For example, a doctor misdiagnosed my knee as sprained when really I lost my ACL in my left knee. This is a doctor who is in your beloved medical profession. Afterwards I had problems with my posture and got misdiagnosed by an orthopedic surgeon, got terrible treatment from a chiropractor and some physiotherapists. It’s only now that I’m seeing a friend from high school who’s now a chiropractor that I’m getting slowly better.

    • Yes, Graham, even medical doctors sometimes get it wrong. But no one claimed they were perfect, did they? Do chiros always get it right?

      Then you present unverified and unverifiable anecdotes. What do you think we should make of them?

  • This article makes me furious. Chiropractic is like any other medical treatment. You have good doctors and you have bad. You have some with a gift and others in it for money.
    Not only does he degrade the Chiropractors but the patients! I am a smart, strong, non-nonsense kind of woman. I am not some bubblehead that can be “brainwashed”. I actually went to one of the bad chiropractors he is describing. He wanted me to sign a 3 year contract and he sold everything from vitamins and lotions to vodoo dolls. I left in a hurry. It was a long time before I went again.
    I have herniated disc at L4-5 and C4-5. My lower back hurt so bad I couldnt lift my son, garden or dance. I was having migrains that were increasing in frequency and in pain. My internist did not believe in chiropractic. She gave me strong muscle relaxers and pain pills that left me groggy and confused. I was having rebound headaches for the strong pain medications. I had 3 neurosurgeons who wanted to fuse my vertebrae together. I didnt know anyone that had much success with that one and I said no. A friend kept trying to get me to go to her chiropractor. She was a wackadoo and between her reputation and my 1st experience with the Quack chiropractor, I put it off. My back got to the point that I had nonstop pain even when sleeping and I had migraines at least twice a week. I finally agreed to see him just to get her to leave me alone. I waited 2 weeks for the appointment and 3 days before I got a migrain that took me to the emergency room. They let me come home on strong drugs but it didnt stop the pain…it just made me too drunk to whine about it. I almost cancelled because I was still sick day of the appointment and too drugged to drive. My mother convinced me to go and drove me. 20 minutes after my adjustment, my migraine was gone. A few weeks later, I had the first night sleep where I didnt cry out in pain when I rolled over. Then I gardened without the trade off of excrutiating back pain and migraines. That was 20 years ago. I have never had any spinal fusions, I have a headache…not a migraine maybe twice a year. I dance, garden, ride horses and a motorcycle. My chiropractor allowed me to enjoy life again and that is not brainwashing. You cant argue with that kind of result. My chiropractor doesnt sell vitamins or anything crazy and he has never tried to put me on ANY kind of ongoing plan. In fact he always said, OUR GOAL IS FOR YOU TO SEE ME LESS AND LESS. He did give me back stregthening exercises and relaxation techniques. I am grateful for his conservative, effective treatment that saved me from a painful, unnecessary back surgery that had a very low success rate.

    • Quizative said:

      This article makes me furious.

      Why? Was there something Prof Ernst got wrong? If so, please feel free to point it out so he can correct it.

    • Quizative, I notice that the experience with your chiropractor you related was 20 years ago, but you speak of him in the present tense: “My chiropractor doesnt sell vitamins”. Does that mean that, despite never putting you on an ongoing plan and him stating his goal is for you to see him “less and less”, you have in fact continued to see him regularly for the past 20 years?

    • i agree. A good chiropractor can readjust subluxations and the adjustment can, will and has helped many people. For example, have you ever met a parkinsons or asthma patient without a neck problem, I haven’t.. if you can show me one, i would be interested to see it, because i have seen 1000’s with this problem. As for scoliosis, and fibermayalgia patients; have you seen the reaction of what these are, and do you know the cause? have you ever considered that the spinal column, which if you cut or pinch can paralyze someone, disrupt every body part within the neuro-line might have just something to do with correction? Do you know that a vertebrae will adjust accordingly to pressure over time? Do you know that the same can be said for arms and legs? see polio(acute flaccid paralysis) have any doctors here ever seen what the autonomic system does, or looks like? When a person treats the symptoms, and not the cause, that’s when people die. Do you not know that the body is a highly intelligent system? Have you not seen inside the body, and read the studies? Does anyone here even know what a macrophage is? How is it possible to have a community of people that study a profession that do not trace the symptoms; a community of people that can retain knowledge, and repeat it with little to no thought to the causal problem? Start reading your scientific studies, and be a little more open to the results might be a good start. Every doctor should always continue learning, and analyzing no matter what, as with any profession in an analytical manner.

      • @Mike on Saturday 08 July 2017 at 18:57

        Another bonehead chiro who has failed to realise that even chiros have disowned subluxations as a myth.
        Surely, even someone as thick as this would appreciate that a subluxation has not been identified after 122 years.

        “Start reading your scientific studies, and be a little more open to the results might be a good start.”

        If you have one that shows the efficacy of chiro, please post it? By that, I mean a scientific study, not the normal half-arsed rubbish chiros posit as evidence.

        “Every doctor should always continue learning, and analyzing no matter what, as with any profession in an analytical manner.”

        Firstly, you aren’t a doctor, and secondly, learning what, the same rubbish you were dished up at chiro school?

  • Hi

    I’m a Chiropractor myself, I do agree with point #13 on your list, I found my self laughing when I read some of your points. But I would dare to argue you on some of them.

    Thank for the informative article either way.

  • Twenty Things Most Medical Doctors Won’t Tell You
    Have you ever consulted a medical doctor? Are you thinking about seeing one? Do you care whether your tax and health-care dollars are spent on worthless medical treatment? If your answer to any of these questions is yes, there are certain things you should know.

    1. Medical theory and practice are often not based on the body of knowledge related to health, disease, and health care that has been widely accepted by the scientific community.
    Most medical doctors believe that the cause of disease is disordered biology that must be corrected chemically with a variety of medications or physically by surgery. MDs often overlook the power of the human body to seek health through physiologic mechanisms of homeostasis. Drugs and surgery would be completely worthless were it not for the human body’s inherent ability to heal itself. Most medical doctors believe that their interventions are the cause of healing. A small percentage of medical doctors realize that health and healing require much more than the correct drug or the best surgical procedure. They are technically very good at curing, but not so good at being healers.

    2. Many medical doctors promise too much.
    While many modern medical interventions are truly life saving, many others contribute little to lengthened life span or improved physical capacity. For example, a recent “breakthrough” in pancreatic cancer treatment has shown improved survival from 4 months to 6 and a t a cost of $6000 to $8000 per month. The most common forms of treatment administered by medical doctors are drugs and surgery. Most drugs have side effects and many surgeries risk serious complications. Medical interventions have recently emerged as the third leading cause of death in the US. Medicine is largely silent with regard to the lethal effect of modern medicine.
    Review of pharmaceutical websites and daily media advertising reveals remarkable claims of benefit for a variety of medications with only minimal discussion of costs, side effects, unintended consequences and problems associated with taking multiple drugs in combinations (polypharmacy). Surgeons routinely downplay risks of the surgeries that they recommend.

    3. Medical education produces highly technically competent doctors who know very little about people.
    Medical education requires dedication to intense study of science-based course work, but little in the way of personal or inter-personal awareness. Medical doctors’ training in academic medical centers focuses almost exclusively on high tech intensive interventions facilitated by ever more sophisticated and complex technology. However many patients and their families are not very satisfied with their care and once they leave the hospital, they fail to carry through with doctors’ orders. Compliance with medical treatment plans is very poor because patients do not or cannot follow through with the recommendations from medical doctors because of cost, lack of social support or the ability to comprehend detailed instructions. Doctors who take the time to understand their patient’s motivations, circumstances and preferences have much better health outcomes and patient satisfaction.
    Unfortunately these doctors are a rare commodity.
    4. A medical specialist’s scope is actually very narrow.
    The health care system in the US encourages increasing specialization by doctors. Payment mechanisms favor care and procedures performed by specialists. Unfortunately increased specialization has led to a loss of a whole person perspective that most patients want and need. It is said that if your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. If you are an orthopedic surgeon, every musculoskeltal ache and pain has a surgical solution.
    Each specialist’s treatment is relevant only to a narrow range of ailments. But some specialists forget that their interventions can influence the course of nearly everything else in their patients life.
    5. Very little of what medical doctors do has been studied.
    Estimates from health policy experts suggest that as little as 15% of medical interventions are fully supported by solid scientific research. Others put that figure much higher, but nobody asserts that all of medicine is based on high quality research. Although modern medicine has been around since about 1925 as a result of the Flexner Report on medical education, only some of what medical doctors do meets the scientific standard through solid high quality research. Medical apologists claim to be the only health profession that is evidence based and they try to sound scientific to counter their detractors, but very little high quality research actually supports what medical doctors do. Review of the evidence for medicine as summarized for example in the Cochrane Collaboration shows that many mainstream and frequently used medical interventions have only fain to poor evidence supporting them.
    6. Unless your diagnosis is obvious, it’s best to get diagnosed elsewhere.
    Misdiagnosis in medicine is common, involves millions of patients and trillions of dollars. Rates of misdiagnosis range from 15-25%. In certain specialties, oncology for example, diagnoses are incorrect over 40% of the time. Some attribute the frequency of misdiagnosis to over-confidence on the part of medical doctors. Medical education only rewards clinical certainty and questioning a diagnosis is resisted. Patients who request a second opinion are often seen as threatening to a medical doctor. From a patient’s perspective any diagnosis and proposed treatment plan should prompt questions to the doctor and unsatisfactory answers should result in seeking another opinion.

    7. We offer lots of unnecessary services.
    Many medical doctors provide unnecessary services. It is estimated that as much as 30% of health care is “waste.” The Institute of Medicine identifies waste as “spending on services that lack evidence of producing better health outcomes compared to less-expensive alternatives; inefficiencies in the provision of health care goods and services; and costs incurred while treating avoidable medical injuries…”

    8. Prescribing a drug or performing a surgery often doesn’t mean much.
    The medical ritual of a doctor visit, taking a drug or undergoing a surgery often works for reasons other than the biological response to the treatment. Most medical studies show positive results from placebo interventions. Sham knee surgery has been shown to be as effective as the real thing. Sugar pills can produce remarkable therapeutic effects. So the benefits of medical interventions have a 1 in 3 chance of having nothing to do with the technology.
    9. If the first treatment doesn’t help you, more treatment probably won’t help either.
    Much of medical practice is based on trial-and-error. Medical doctors take their best diagnostic guess and propose a drug or a surgery based on their specialist training, practice guideline, the newest drug or what will be paid for. The simple approach of “watchful waiting” is usually disregarded in favor of the medical propensity to “do something.” Interventions of behavior or lifestyle change take too much of a doctor’s time. Writing a prescription or doing a procedure are much easier and they are often what the patient expects, regardless of what actually may be the least invasive, the least risky and the lowest cost.
    If the first spinal surgery or epidural steroid injection doesn’t work, the second, third, or forth are equally unlikely to help either.
    10. We take too many x-rays and other imaging studies.
    The use of diagnostic x-rays, especially CT scans, is results in patients developing cancer later in life. Estimates by researchers at the National Cancer Institute found that 29,000 future cancer cases could be attributed to the 72 million CT scans performed in the country in 2007.
    MRIs, while much safer that x-ray radiation, have problems of their own. In a study of 221 patients who had MRIs, the results showed that only 5.9% actually needed to have an MRI done. The remaining 94.1% of the patients sacrificed their time and money. Much overuse of MRI is driven by doctors who view the test as a short cut to a diagnosis. Many patients demand an MRI to know what is “really going on.” A recent published study of MRI for low back pain found only about half of the studies were performed for justifiable reasons. A recent article in Spine concluded that “Early MRI without indication has a strong iatrogenic effect in acute LBP, regardless of radiculopathy status. Providers and patients should be made aware that when early MRI is not indicated, it provides no benefits, and worse outcomes are likely.”

    11. Research on medical practice does not reflect what takes place in most medical facilities.
    Research studies that look at medical interventions are generally done under strict protocols that protect patients from harm. The results reflect what happens when treatments are done on patients who are appropriately screened—usually by medical teams that exclude people with conditions that would make the treatment dangerous. But these results do not reflect what typically happens when patients are treated. The medical marketplace is a mess because many medical doctors ignore research findings and evidence based clinical practice guidelines. Instead they subject their patients to procedures that are based on their own opinions, what is customary in their community or are just plain unnecessary and senseless.
    Researchers at Dartmouth have looked at the use of medical procedures across the US. They have found wide variation in medical practices from on geographic region to another. This variation cannot be explained on the basis of the severity of illnesses suffered by the patients. Rather one community of doctors are likely to use a procedure twice as often as their colleagues somewhere else. But doing twice as much does not translate to better outcomes for patients. They get twice as much care (and we spend twice as much money) for the same results.
    Most medical specialties have evidence based clinical practice guidelines that use the scientific literature to inform clinical practice. Unfortunately these guidelines are frequently not followed and patients do not get the care that science says is best. Some estimates show as little as only 30% of patients in hospital receive care that is recommended by these evidence based guidelines. Treatments for certain conditions are even worse. A recent study found that primary care providers treating garden-variety low back pain followed scientifically based recommendations for first line medication only about 25% of the time.

    12. Medical treatment is potentially dangerous.
    Medical treatment is the third leading cause of death in the US, just behind heart disease and cancer. Up to 400,000 people die each year because of medical care.

    13. Most medical doctors don’t know much about nutrition.
    Medical doctors learn little about clinical nutrition during their schooling. Many offer what they describe as “nutrition counseling.” But this typically consists of superficial advice about eating less fat and various schemes to sell you supplements and prescribe drugs that are high-priced and unnecessary.

    14. Medical doctors who prescribe drugs are influenced by drug companies.
    The relationships between the pharmaceutical industry and the medical doctors who prescribe them is troubled by conflicts of interest, ethical lapses and, of course, money. Recent legislative regulations, ethics statements and professional education reforms have emerged to correct what can only be described as the too-cozy relationship between pharmaceutical manufacturers (“big pharma”) and medicine. While she has her critics, Marcia Angel, MD, the former editor of the mainstream medical journal The New England Journal of Medicine, blows the cover of the relationship between big pharma, the FDA and practicing doctors. She describes a well-oiled industrial machine that has discovered a way to make tons of money in the guise of helping patients. Doctors are all-to-wiling participants in this scheme beginning in medical school and moving into practice with generous perks, free gifts and other incentives to prescribe the newest (and usually most expensive) drug or medical device.
    15. Medical doctors often have no business treating young children.
    Many medical procedures have been studied only in adults. Unfortunately children are just “litte adults.”

    16. The fact that patients swear by us does not mean we are actually helping them.
    Satisfaction is not the same thing as effectiveness. Many people who believe they have been helped had conditions that would have resolved without treatment. Some have had treatment for dangers that did not exist but were said by the chiropractor to be imminent. Many chiropractors actually take courses on how to trick patients to believe in them. (See Chapter 8)

    17. Insurance companies don’t want to pay for many medical services.
    Some medical specialists love to brag that their services are covered by Medicare and most insurance companies. However, this coverage for many procedures has been achieved though political action rather than scientific merit. For example bariatric surgery was developed over the last decade but has not really become common until various states have mandated coverage for the procedure. The evidence that supports these procedures is scant. End-stage renal disease has been enshrined in Medicare coverage since an act of Congress in 1973. The US spent $32.9 billion for treating almost 600,000 patients, a ten-fold increase since 1980. It costs between $60,00 and over $80,000 per patient per year for this treatment. While one can’t argue that this cost is not necessary, after all it keeps these people alive, one can’t help but wonder if that $32 billion might be better spent.
    18. Lots of Medical doctors do really strange things.
    Medical quackery has a long and rich history. It is not confined to the past, but is alive and well, even in the age of modern, evidence based medicine. Contemporary medical education trains doctors to be over-confident in their skills and knowledge. While this sometimes leads to significant innovation,it can also lead to weird medical treatments offered by some medical doctors to willing and gullible patients.
    The medical cosmetic industry is one current “specialty” that offers “treatments” that are only questionably necessary, not without significant risk and delivered for no other reason than patients want it and doctors have figured out how to deliver it. Liposuction, laser face lifts, breast augmentation and, most recently, genital cosmetic surgery (called vaginal rejuvenation), challenge any consideration of these procedures as rational medicine.

    19. Don’t expect medical licensing boards to protect you.
    Many medical doctors who serve on chiropractic licensing boards harbor the same misbeliefs and biases that are rampant among their colleagues. This means, for example, that most boards are unlikely to discipline medical doctors for diagnosing and treating imaginary conditions such as the need for “vaginal rejuvenation.” Medical boards are usually dominated by doctors and representation by lay persons is often discouraged. Even if a licensing board chooses to take action against a rogue doctor, the legal system often moves so slowly that the doctor continues in practice and harms more patients while the board dithers in legal limbo.

    20. The media rarely look at what we do wrong.
    The media rarely if ever address medical nonsense. The medical profession’s hammer lock on the media, while not complete, does have the general public convinced that they are in the business for the benefit of patients and the good of the public. Doctors are usually seen as selfless professional only doing what is right for their patients. They are not businessmen and women who make their decisions based on economics, income and profit.
    Many politicians and media continue the fiction that the US has the best medical care in the world. The outcomes however suggest a much different story. The US spends more than any other developed nation on earth but has outcomes that are not consistent with the 16% of GDP that is medical care. Medical care now exceeds housing costs for the average American family. Recent Federal and state efforts at health care reform are the political and social response to an unsustainable trajectory of rising medical costs.

  • Someone already said that – perhaps you didn’t read the comments? Anyway, it is as irrelevant to the subject of this blog post now as it was then.

  • TBH I haven’t read the book and don’t intend to, but after reading this website that describes it, just basically bashes Chiro’s as a selling point for the book, in other words like many fashion magazines do to get people to buy their crap.

    Look I’m not saying there are no bad Chiropractors out there, I’m 100% sure there are cause I’ve been to some JUST like I’ve been to some TERRIBLE Medical Dr’s (even worse than the bad Chiro’s I’ve been to) but the Chiro I normally visit actually tells me exactly the same thing which we agreed on and people should stick to within their scope of what they are taught and specialise in which MANY Chiro’s do not (even Physio’s and Naturopaths do not also, a lot are guilty of this not just Chiro’s) so the ones that do not give the others a bad name (again like other fields)

    I’m not sure why you chose to point out Chiro’s, maybe just because it is the one you’ve come across as dodgy and maybe you need more life experience and you will find this is just HUMANS in general, no particular field…. but I’ve personally had more success with a Chiropractor than any other Dr. I could give you my whole medical history which I will not but it is not a another case of oh he cracks my neck to release the nitric oxide and makes me feel good case, far from it.

    Safe to say when you go to a GOOD if not GREAT Chiropractor you will be able to tell the WORLD of difference between a what you think to be good one, like I have in the past which turns out to be just awful.

    Either way I’m looking at practising Chiropractic and would never cheat on any of my tests as I want to became a great Chiropractor and take zero shortcuts as I’ve said to heal and help people like the great ones (I’ve been to some 10 in my life? I’ve met about 4 great ones out of those) helped me.

    Also your part of this blog where it states “3. Our education is vastly inferior to that of medical doctors.” is just quite simply untrue, I’m not sure what it is like in some countries but we actually put in MORE hours in the years we study than Medical Doctors and by the end of the 2 years we have seen hundreds of patients….. with it constantly being monitored by a fully qualified DC (Dr of Chiropractic) , that is just in Australia either way from what I got told due to my partner being specifically scared of being under trained so rest assured this is not the case, at least here.

    Also in America

    http://www.yourmedicaldetective.com/drgrisanti/mddc.htm

    So I’m guessing it is the same there? Plus looking at that is pretty disturbing when it comes to some numbers of hours only that Medical Dr’s are putting in….. and where, it seems like they are basically just being trained up to prescribe drugs (which most people actually are finding out when they research THAT side of things) but you can see it clearly, lack of Diagnosis and even the human body in general with Anatomy/Embryology and Physiology….

    Anyways as I said above (and from personal experience) I would put my faith in a Chiropractor anyday, I am glad I NOW know how to look for a good one, I’m sorry you’ve had a bad experience with yours.

    Also PS all of the ones I’ve been to have never EVER preached to me all diseases etc etc come from the spine or can be cured through adjustments like this at all, ever, period. So again I’m guessing we have dealt with a different bunch? I really do have to agree with one of the comments above where you have seem to pick a few bad apples and labeled it across all Chiro’s which AGAIN I have to say you can say that about ANY field, so do yourself a favour if you are a TRUE skeptic AND researcher and find a GOOD one?

    Also might put you at ease…. NZ (New Zealand) did the biggest research in the WORLD before approving Chiropractic (Australia took this research on board also and used it to approve their field) took years and the most thorough research to date, dug EXTREMELY deep getting ALL the hard facts out, so I think people should look at that and believe what they will over such a deeply funded and well researched past time on the subject before taking account one persons opinion with their book and blog.

    • Vaughan Elphick “TBH I haven’t read the book and don’t intend to, but after reading this website that describes it, just basically bashes Chiro’s as a selling point for the book, in other words like many fashion magazines do to get people to buy their crap. I’m not sure why you chose to point out Chiro’s…”

      If you read the book you’d fully understand why.

      • Have to agree with Well and Vaughan, blunty just going on about nonsense in order to sell a book. I like the points Vaughan also brought up. Alot of good facts right there, love the reply that it got also, another response in order to buy a book, who would have guessed!

  • What’s the point to this blog? It’s the least scientific thing I’ve ever read. Has everyone one here forgotten what science is? Where’s the detachment of bias and use of objectivity? Especially you Edzard Ernst. You are well known for being the biggest, most biased cherry picker of them all. Ok, you’re on a personal mission to discredit Chiropractic, you have been for years, but because it’s so personal to you, your bias leads you to the point you can no longer be regarded as a scientist. Bad science is no science.

    • jonjay5
      Ernst is not alone. He is joined by many who care to have a look at the problem. Modern communication and liberal attitude is making it easy for any kind of wannabe healers and make-believe doctors to sell their services to an ignorant public.

      It is quite easy for someone with basic medical knowledge and understanding of anatomy and physiology to see through the nonsense of Chiropractics if they just care. It is especially easy once you have tried their services as I did once. I honestly believed the man would do me good as I read that the americans had found chiropractic helpful in uncomplicated lower back pain. But the only thing that improved was his bank account. I even, as he was so insistent on it, listened to an evening lecture and learned about the magical subluxation that he claimed could help with anything from infertility to appendicitis and I have studied their promotional material in detail and everything there is to find as far as research.

      Since then I have cured my lumbago bouts myself for free and in much less time than it took when the chiro was calling the shots. The man even insisted on manhandling my neck even if I never had any problems from that region! Thank god I did not win the one in a million or two lottery for a life with locked-in syndrome.

      They also do a fine job of discrediting themselves in public as we have seen many examples of here.

      The real problem is that authorities are not even aware there is a problem and so many people get hooked by their “practice-building techniques” and start to believe that they are being helped by the manhandling.

      What I resent most in their devious marketing is the way they lie and cheat about their abilities to help children with anything between bedwetting and asthma. An advertisement I saw recently stated that 95% [sic!] of neonates have spinal misalignment due to birth trauma(!!!) that should be corrected ASAP by a chiropractor. This is plain and simple fabrication and fraud.

      I started to suspect things were not alright with the practice of chiropractics already at the first visit when he took extensive x-rays of my spine that were of excessively poor quality. You saw very little detail. Being trained in general and trauma surgery you know what is an acceptable quality x-ray picture.

      People are coming to real doctors I know, with fogged whole-body x-rays, unduly terrified because chiropractors thought they saw something that should be checked. One radiologist friend told me a few days ago that a woman had brought her total body x-rays of her young child because the chiropractor had said the child’s pelvis was in many pieces adn this was a terrible thing!!!!! The child was absolutely normal of course. This chiro has the most modern digital equipment in town but he did not know how to read the unnecessary x-rays that gave a healthy child a wicked dose of ionizing radiation to add to its lifetime risk of cancer.

  • I am so perplexed by this article, blog, book and lie. There are people in the USA that die from Medical Doctors and Hospitals in the hundreds of thousands, JAMA said more than 300,000 patients die at there hands. Every medication has a side effect, which most times are worst than the condition being treated. M.D’s being paid to give medications that has never cured a disease. Actually, can anyone tell me the last cure we have had since small pox. Cancer? Nope, we are still running races to make more money for Susie K. foundation, Diabetes? Heart Disease? Lupus? hell the common cold? Oh yeah, there is no money in cures only maintaining people in a sick state. Yet we have a article the goes in length to bash a profession that doesn’t harm 1 soul, just because the person writing the article is either a chiropractor who either failed out of school, failed in business, is a MD that is loosing face in his community to chiropractors making a difference, disgruntled medical doctor or med school administrator who is seeing a decline in enrollment in there “unscientific medical schools”.

    Food for thought if, an airline which has similar number of customers as hospitals with patients had over 300,000 killed in plane crashes each year, NO ONE WOULD FLY.

    300,000 people a year in the US killed by guns, there would probably be a nation wide ban on guns,

    300,000 people killed by any profession who definitely lead to alot of people going to jail.

    WHY, because in other countries around the world we would call that, Genocide, not health care, not scientific evidence, not “real doctors”, just plane murderers. or in this case the cost of doing business.

    • Abdul

      Oh dear.

      I’ve no idea why you use the title doctor, but it would appear you didn’t earn it for critical thinking or research skills.

    • Abdul

      You are parroting a nonsense mantra of altmed propaganda. You never even read the article in JAMA from 2000 which is talking about the poor state of health service in the us, not the state of medical science. It certainly says nothing about the usefulness of whatever you choose instead of real medicine, including chiropractics. The figures are pure speculation and saying that doctors are killing patients in such numbers is pain insolence.
      Your comments on the progress of medicine only illustrates your ignorance. Cancer is for example not a disease. It is a class of hundreds of different diseases.

  • Simple. Md students have more patient during their clinical years due to any Joe Shmoe complaining of pain and easily getting a prescription in ANY ER in America, besides the fact there’s a huge epidemic of teenagers claiming they can’t focus and immediately get prescribed aderal. It’s easy for doctors to come across patients, besides the fact you have every other commercial describing symptoms that could apply to a 6 month old and a 60 yr old. People be AWARE!!!!! Md students have more school/clinical hours in perscription drugs then the study of the human nervous system!!!! The “father” of modern medicine believed In proper education and health and spreading that to the masses! Not you script happy opinion. There will always be someone on the other side of the table…. But you can’t argue the fact that studies are showing a huge decrease of md doctors, of nearly 100,000 in the next decade. Our health care system has made America fat lazy sick manipulated…. And the ppl are seeing it. Chiropractic isn’t for everyone, that’s fair to say, but modern medicine is killing. The ppl are seeing it now. Whole health is what is important. I don’t see how it’s possible to fully promote “medical” doctors and absolutely have others ppls best interest at heart. There’s more studies to show and prove it’s downfall verses it’s positive uprise. Chiropractic is not a job! It’s a life style! It’s not something to trick ppl steal manipulate… Most offices have no advertising. It’s about spreading healthy options of how to maintain optimal health. Helping those who had no other options, and most of those people wish it was their first but just didn’t have proper education or knowledge on the positive effects of chiropractic. Also there are thousand of offices that are cash not insurance run, unlike most MD’s, chiropractors don’t need to rely on health insurance companies for a paycheck. I see all the doctorates you have obtained and realize that you most likely find yourself more highly qualified than any other person here, and that right there will eventually be your downfall. To those of you who are wondering, I am NOT a chiropractor. I am not a chiropractor student. And my influence on this subject comes from a more powerful and smarter individual then who wrote this post. My love for truth and pointing out the mass manipulators is what drives me. You are wrong to attempt to exploit chiropractic. I am a person of complete rational thinking. You mention how chiropractors use politics for Medicare verses medical merit…. How did you not laugh and fall off your chair with that one??? The medical field is not only friends with but they are dick suckers to the politicians of this country. Big pharma owns your ass. There’s no merit in that. Chiropractors don’t say that regular medical care is never useful, in fact I have been to many important seminars that claim that chiropractors can’t heal bones or apply stitches, they don’t aim to be the worlds next greatest healer. They aim to help people obtain positive health through knowledge and regular chiro care. They believe in your body reaching its maximum Potential on a DAILY basis! Why would someone not want that? Why would someone not want to hear that the drugs their doctor is giving them is actually making them sick. Why would ppl not want to know of alternatives to fix the mistakes big pharma has caused. You say chiropractic isn’t for children?!?! I say VACCINES are NOT for children! Especially NEW BORNS! I say prescriptions are NOT meant for 5 year olds. I say that AUTISM is a NEW!! Disease in our human life span! Really look at everything people, don’t take one doctors opinion. Don’t take 12 doctors opinion. You believe what they want you to believe. Manipulated creatures. That’s the biggest illness epidemic now, ignorant manipulation. And then those same ppl feel qualified to defend a side they have never even fully understood. I hope you sleep well at night knowing you’ve influenced with the wrong information.

  • 1 hour deep tissue myofacial massage $70:00, always makes you feel good.

    Three minutes on a chiropractors table $65:00, dubious results at best.

    You do the math.

  • Erin,
    If you are going to say stupid things, please try to avoid saying them stupidly. The medication is spelled Adderall. ‘Newborns’ is one word. The grammatically correct phrase would be “There [are] more studies to show and prove its [no apostrophe] downfall verses its [no apostrophe] positive uprising.” Just to name a few. And until you are a medical professional, I would prefer it if you did not comment on things you have no education about, including the benefit of vaccines and the causes of obesity and laziness; please avoid defending a side you have very obviously never understood. I am glad that you have not been even slightly manipulated by this nameless “more powerful and smarter individual than who wrote this post.”

  • S246 wrote: “His book is garbage”

    I’m interested to know what you make of the third paragraph on page 109 of Preston Long’s book, and also what important papers (according to you) he has *excluded* from his references at the end of each chapter. Thanks.

  • I think you are not really a Chiropractor and whatever you are it is obvious that you totally are trying to sabotage Chiropractors and Chiroractic, without having a real accurate knowledge about them and their education. You totally have exaggerated about the negative points you have mentioned and many things you have said are totally biased.

  • Amy said:

    I think you are not really a Chiropractor

    I sincerely hope that Prof Ernst isn’t moonlighting as a chiro! The shame!

    But as he asked, do you have any evidence to substantiate what you say?

  • No one needs to read the book to understand he is right. MD’s see Chiropractors as their biggest threat to lose money. Although this is changing and a lot of MD’s are referring patients to DC’s and vice versa. You can see clearly you are just trying to sell a book here and nothing more, it is sad and pathetic really.

    • ad hominem attacks are the norm when there are no real arguments!?!

    • Well said:

      MD’s see Chiropractors as their biggest threat to lose money. Although this is changing and a lot of MD’s are referring patients to DC’s and vice versa.

      Two very clear assertions. Care to try to back them up with evidence?

      • Did you want MD names that refer patients to DCs? I get several referrals a week, what year are you living in to think MDs and DCs are against each other? Obviously some are but many work together, even professional sports teams and the Olympic medical team have DCs on staff? Want to explain that then?

    • Hi ‘Well’.

      Since you’ve posted here previously, would you like to tell everyone else your real name?

  • This is the biggest balogne I have ever seen and highly doubt this guy would bad-mouth his own profession (I guess he wanted to sell a bunch of books by rejecting his own business). There are a lot of chiropractic colleges, just like there are LOT of undergraduate universites. The quality of your education from a state school isn’t going to be nearly as good as a Harvard education. The only reason people in the medical community want to get rid of chiropractic is because it is a threat to their monopoly on medical care. DONE

    • do you have any real arguments?

      • Edzard said:

        do you have any real arguments?

        I somehow doubt it…

        • Lets report the damage done by prescriptions medications each day if you want to help people out. There will be bad and good in every profession but to just bad mouth one, shows you have an agenda against it and are not really trying to help anyone other then your injured ego. There are plenty of legitimate studies out showing chiropractic being the proper route of action before medicine/surgery. To disagree is to be blind and intentionally ignorant on the topic.

          I agree that chiropractic can not cure everything and that docs that say it can are a black eye to the entire profession.

          Keep in mind that I also believe medicine can’t cure everything and you should understand that also.

  • As a Chiropractic graduate from Logan College, I could not agree more. It is such a quessing game. In retrospect I would have been better off telling patients that I would hit them in the “ass” with a shovel once a week and take their money. Then send them on their way. Tis would have done about the same thing as the bull I promulated for years, trying to sound scientific when in the end I was cheating the patient and lying to myself. How long can the public be deceived.

  • Test

  • I admit, I have not read the book. I simply read the excerpt from above. However, I am a current graduate of a Canadian Chiropractic College and I have a much different view than the author.

    1)Cheating. There was little to no cheating by anyone I knew in my program; 2 students were expelled throughout my degree and the class was largely supportive of this action.

    2)Education. I was required to see 35 patients, with a minimum of 350 subsequent treatments. A maximum of 7 could be students or family, and all were required to be alive. This was a minimum and many of us treated upwards of 50;500. I would agree that this should be more, however, this happens to be a logistic issue and rounds and outside learning/observing were stressed and encouraged.

    3)”Subluxation” with a non-medical (partial dislocation) definition was a taboo word during school. I have yet to say it to a patient (or think it, for that matter).

    4) Scope: Neuromusculoskeletal conditions. Any nerve, muscle or joint… I am proud of this because I do it well. I cannot cure AIDS & I know this. However, I can help with back, neck, shoulder, etc. pain.

    5) Research: touche’, here is a valid point. RCT’s are the gold standard for empirical evidence and manual medicine is more difficult to study via RCT than prescription medication. This makes the studies longer, more rigorous, with a lot more ethical considerations and confounding variables to consider. Additionally, the profession is quite young in relation to medicine. Therefore, yes, chiropractic (and other manual therapy) evidence is lacking. In rebuttal to this comment, I will note that in order to graduate I was required to complete either a literature review or an approved undergraduate research project… the profession has taken note and is taking steps to rectify this (post-graduate work included).

    6) X-rays: I have learned and follow the same imaging guidelines medical doctors follow, as do most of my colleagues.

    I would just like to say that reading this post made my heart break a little. This gentleman clearly had a terrible time in school & just like picking a medical college (or any college for that matter), he should have researched a bit more. I attended my chiropractic college specifically because of an upstanding scientific reputation based solely on evidence-based medicine. I hope that people understand the way doctors of chiropractic practice varies widely, and searching out the best chiropractor for you is important & worthwhile. Ask friends, family or colleagues what has worked for them: personal referrals are the best source.

    • Totally agree with CanadaDC…. what was taught at the university I studied in Australia seems quite similar to that of Canada…. no pseudoscience, only MSK conditions

  • wow..your website is so PRO-medical..do you work for the government or simply wish people to stay drugged..

    I am so disappointed in your ability to tell the truth.

    P.S. I know more about health than you

    • so, tell us what you know about health. do you mean the nonsense you learnt in chiro-college?

    • Pro medical or pro evidence? Can you see a difference? That subtle difference in perception is what makes you think you know more about health. In fact its not that subtle a difference.

      I hope you aren’t as arrogant in other aspects of your life.

  • Whose turn is it for the popcorn?

  • My infant daughter was in excruciating pain following an emergency c-section. Her neck was pulled out of alignment by the cord, which was around her neck. After one adjustment she showed visible improvement. I believe in the benefits of proper alignment, particularly when the misalignment is causing pain. I have been to several chiropractors who spent anywhere from 5 minutes ( or less) to 45 minutes adjusting me. I have gotten great relief from being adjusted properly. I have encouraged my kids to become chiropractors. When state medicaid will cover it, it has made giant leaps in being recognized as beneficial.

    • …and what tells you that, without ‘adjustments’, your daughter would not have improved to – or perhaps even faster?

    • @Christina

      I am curious.
      Why did you not sue the obstetrician who mishandled your infant? !

      Why do I say this?
      The neck of your daughter cannot have been pulled “out of alignment” in any other way than by the obstetrician as she was delivered by C-section. An emergency C-section was performed because there were signs on the fetal monitoring of intermittently decreased blood flow in the cord during labour. Had there been such a pull on the cord to have sufficed to pull the neck out of alignment, the blood flow in the cord would have had to stop for a good while and your daughter would have been dead some time before the operation could commence. That is why fetal monitoring has been devised, to save the child’s life before it is too late and the blood flow has stopped in the cord.
      What is more, for this to happen (blood flow being affected in the cord) the head will have to be normally fixed in the pelvis thereby not being able to move in relation to the body. So the pull on the cord would have to be extreme in order to have an untoward effect on the unborn childs neck.
      (How do I know? Well, I should know these things being a surgeon myself and having shared my life with an obstetrician wife for almost 30 years.)
      Therefore, if your chiropractor is right about the neck having been misaligned, it must have happened when the obstetrician was handling the child at or after the Cesarean section.

      So maybe you should confront the obstetrician (with your chiropractor and a lawyer present) with the fact that the child was in pain from a neck misalignment after the C-section, which the chiropractor successfully fixed. It will be interesting to hear what the obstetrician and her/his lawyer say.

      Or…
      Let’s say your daughter had been very unlucky and ended up in a wheelchair. Who would have been to blame, the obstetrician or the chiropractor?

      No I don’t think so.

      The truth is that the chiropractor community have made up these problems as a part of their “practice building”. Based on flawed and exagerated research about spinal problems from (even normal) delivery they have somewhat successfully expanded their customer base (and thereby income) to infants and children. They are in effect pretending to treat non-existent conditions using fictional methods.

      Your daughter was presumably simply unhappy as she felt how you were upset after the chiropractor told you tall tales about an imaginary problem. Then when the chiropractor fondled and manipulated the child (gently of course) the child was, as expected, soothed and the charla… eh, chiropractor assured you that his/her magic had worked.

      In the old days impostors were tarred and feathered. Now they are glorified on facebook.

      Did you remember to thank the obstetric team for saving your daughters life.

  • As a second-generation chiropractor myself, I can tell you that much of what we learn in school is absolute nonsense. Chiropractors, at their best, can only provide temporary palliative relief to some types of musculoskeletal pain. At worst, we delay needed medical treatment by telling our patients lies. We have almost no critical thinking skills as well as a complete lack of understanding of the scientific method. This is best demonstrated by the vast number of chiropractors who (at least here in the US) still believe in the “subluxation theory”. There is really no reason for the chiropractic profession to exist at all. If one “needs” to have some manipulative therapy performed (adjustment), it can now (again at least in the US) be done by a doctor of physical therapy who in over half the states now have the right to manipulate. They can now also see patients without a referral, just like a chiro. Most chiros are unaware of this and I love hearing them say, “well our education/degree/title is superior to a PT, that is why we are considered to be portal of entry healthcare providers and PT’s are not…they need a referral from an MD” I have personally seen and heard other chiropractors tell their patients the most insane things and people lap it up- never underestimate how powerful it is to Mr. John Doe to hear the “doctor” take time to listen to his compaints and agree with him. The placebo effect is quite powerful and chiropractors use it to the fullest.

    • Evan Dadas wrote: “There is really no reason for the chiropractic profession to exist at all. If one “needs” to have some manipulative therapy performed (adjustment), it can now (again at least in the US) be done by a doctor of physical therapy who in over half the states now have the right to manipulate. They can now also see patients without a referral, just like a chiro.”

      Interesting comment. The reformist, veteran chiropractor, Samuel Homola, signalled the following eight years ago:

      QUOTE
      “As I warned in Bonesetting, Chiropractic and Cultism, if chiropractic fails to specialize in an appropriate manner, there may be no justification for the existence of chiropractic when there are an adequate number of physical therapists providing manipulative therapy. Many physical therapists are now using manipulation/mobilization techniques. Of the 209 physical therapy programs in the US, 111 now offer Doctor of Physical Therapy (DPT) degrees. Some of these programs have been opened to qualified chiropractors. According to the American Physical Therapy Association,

      “…Physical therapy, by 2020, will be provided by
      physical therapists who are doctors of physical therapy
      and who may be board-certified specialists. Consumers
      will have direct access to physical therapists in all environments
      for patient/client management, prevention, and
      wellness services. Physical therapists will be practitioners
      of choice in patients’/clients’ health networks and will
      hold all privileges of autonomous practice…”

      It matters little who does spinal manipulative therapy as long as it is appropriate and evidence-based.”

      Ref. The Journal of Manual & Manipulative Therapy
      Vol. 14 No. 2 (2006), E14 – E18
      http://jmmtonline.com/documents/HomolaV14N2E.pdf

      • “Blue Wode” Why is it that you now do not argue against these doctors of physical therapy as you do against the use of manipulative therapy in chiropractic. Is it the notion of the name chiropractic itself your argue against?

        • @ Hans

          Yes. Chiropractors need to eliminate the chiropractic ‘bait and switch’…

          QUOTE
          “Chiropractic is perhaps the most common and egregious example of the bait and switch in medicine. The deception begins with the name itself – “chiropractic” fails the basic test of transparency because it is not unambiguously defined. There are in fact numerous professions doing very different things and employing mutually exclusive philosophies under the banner of “chiropractic”.” Therefore someone may go to see a chiropractor and think they will be seeing a medical professional who will treat their musculoskeletal symptoms, but in reality they will see the practitioner of a cult philosophy of energy healing. So-called “straight” chiropractors (who make up an estimated 30% of all chiropractors) still adhere to the original philosophy of chiropractic invented by “magnetic healer” D.D. Palmer, which is based upon the claim that an undetected life energy called “innate intelligence” flows through the spinal cord and nerves and is responsible for health. Such chiropractors will treat any disease or ailment with spinal manipulation. Most other so called “mixer” chiropractors reject the notion of innate intelligence either partially or entirely, but still incorporate other pseudosciences into their practice. Chiropractors are the primary practitioners of homeopathy, applied kinesiology, and iridology in the US. The bait – claims that chiropractors are medical practitioners with expertise in the musculoskeletal system. The switch – practitioners of discredited pseudosciences that have nothing to do with the musculoskeletal system.
          A more subtle form of the bait and switch among chiropractors is the treatment of musculoskeletal symptoms with standard physical therapy or sports medicine practices under the name of chiropractic manipulation. Ironically, the more honest and scientific practitioners among chiropractors are most likely to commit this subtle deception. The problem comes not from the treatment itself but the claim that such treatments are “chiropractic”.” Using techniques like massage, range of motion exercises, strength-building exercises, and mobilization of joints are all legitimate science-based techniques used by physical therapists and physicians with specialties in physiatry, orthopedics, and sports medicine. Some chiropractors also use similar techniques -and with good results. But by doing so and calling it “chiropractic” it legitimizes the pseudoscientific practices that are very common within the profession – like treating non-existent “subluxations” in order to free up the flow of innate intelligence.”

          Ref: https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-bait-and-switch-of-unscientific-medicine/

  • The last line of Sam Homola’s article:
    In reply to Blue:
    “For those researchers striving to develop an inter-professional research agenda on the therapeutic use of manipulation,
    it would be necessary to seek out evidence-based chiropractors, who can participate in joint-manipulation research that is free of bias and dogma.”
    COCA already there! Support!
    Craig Liebenson already there! Support!
    Murdock University already there! Support!
    Macquarie University already there! Support!
    The momentum for change has gathered momentum here and the subbies are becoming worried and vocal!
    Support the reformers and speed up the process!

  • Very odd. I can’t find a single statement above that is true of my chiropractor and trust me….I did insane amounts of research. I have been a poo-pooer of chiropractors my whole life. After spending literally thousand of dollars in neurologists and cardiologists, pain meds and cholesterol meds, I finally did the research and found a chiro. I go every other month at most, my insurance covers it, I get vitamins for half the cost of target or cub and I have been migraine free with a healthy cholesterol for years.

    • @ Laura

      It’s good to hear that you are feeling better. However, when it comes to scientific medicine, personal anecdotes regarding benefit from a therapy have to be discarded. Here’s why:

      QUOTE
      “One of the hard won lessons of the process of scientific discovery is that anecdotal evidence is very unreliable. Psychologist Barry Beyerstein summarized it well when he wrote, “anecdotal evidence leads us to conclusions that we wish to be true, not conclusions that actually are true.” So anecdotes can be worse than worthless, they can be misleading. This conclusion was arrived at after centuries of being misled by anecdotes…What we mean, exactly, by anecdotal evidence is the report of an experience by one or more persons that is not objectively documented or an experience or outcome that occurred outside of a controlled environment. Such evidence is unreliable because it depends upon the accurate perception of the witness(es), often in a situation where the event was unexpected or unusual; it is dependent upon subjective memory, which has been overwhelmingly demonstrated to be extremely error prone and subject to a host of flaws; and it cannot account for the random vagaries of a chaotic world…the bottom line is this – we know for certain from countless historical examples that even people who have all the traits of a reliable witness can be profoundly mistaken.”

      Ref: http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/no-love-for-anecdotal-evidence/

      I also suggest that you have a slow read through Barry Beyerstein’s classic essay, Social and Judgmental Biases That Seem to Make Inert Treatments Work. It’s a thorough analysis of alternative medicine and common errors of reasoning:
      http://web.archive.org/web/20050329093720/http://www.sram.org/0302/bias.html

      • Yup, Laura’s post is anecdotal.

        Edzard’s recent post: acupuncture didn’t work for someone – anecdotal. And his chiro story – anecdotal. Bjorn has posted about about a patient who tried gua sha for appendicitis – anecdotal. A friend of mine had a bad reaction to cipro causing her liver to fail – anecdotal.

        Probably none of them will be trying those specific therapies again, based on personal experience or anecdotal evidence. Bjorn will probably not try gua sha for his arthritis, based on the patient’s experience. Even though I can rattle off 50 patients off the top of my head that effectively manage arthritis in their hands with gua sha. And fair enough – his experience would be enough to put anyone off gua sha. I’ll never take cipro, based on anecdotal evidence. Even though I know people who have gotten benefit from it. Even though her experience is anecdotal, I know that my friend will never take cipro for a UTI again.

        On the other hand, Laura found success with chiro – anecdotal. I know hundreds of people personally, and know of many many more who get great results from gua sha – anecdotal. I know people who have gotten benefit from cipro – anecdotal. I hear great stories every day about acupuncture, gua sha, cupping, moxa, massage, and qigong working where nothing else did – anecdotal.

        So while Laura reads the links you provided…you should learn from her experience and follow her example. Do your own research, find your own answers.

        In the end, the only evidence that really matters is the evidence you collect for yourself.

  • Yes, Laura. Happy to hear that you are healthier now and another of the millions of satisfied people of all ages around the world who have been helped with their migraines with natural, non-drug chiropractic health care.

    But, I would have to agree with Blue Wode on this one. You apparently don’t know truth from reality, right from wrong, fact from fantasy. You certainly don’t know what helped you. Blue Wode does, though. And if you read his recommendations, I am confident your migraines will return and you can then go get some “scientific” medical help and drugs again and see a real doctor for sick care not health care — who, BTW, can’t help migraines. Just sayin’.

    Congrats again.

  • Hi everyone! well this has been a heated discussion hasn’t it?

    Well if one was to look into the history of chiropractic medicine it is rubbish. Being a graduate from a UC with a degree in Biology and emphasis in neuroscience, volunteering 400 hours in a ER, working as a EMT, working in many different dental offices, receiving acupuncture and chiropractic healthcare, I can honestly say there is an absolute need for both!

    I broke the growth plate in my knee at a very young age. My right leg is a quarter inch shorter than my left. I was a runner growing up and that quarter inch has thrown off my pelvic height and thus my spine is tilted. I have more pressure on one side of my body than the other and my discs have been greatly damaged. I have been seeing doctors, neurologists my entire life. I have had taken massive amounts of pain killers which have caused more problems than than they helped. I have worn a back brace most of my life. I have 4 bulged discs and spondilo. Anyways, bottom line is I am in pain.

    What finally resolved my back pain. I went and found an EVIDENCE based chiropractor after my SURGEON told me that CHIROPRACTOR would manually adjust my back and bring blood flow and nutrients to my herniated discs. My chiro adjusted me twice a week. He also made sure to se my x-rays and mri before he adjusted me. After two weeks I have had a massive decrease in pain. More mobility than I have ever experienced in my life. He recommended I read the book Foundation which was written by a DC and a PT and has helped athletes such as Lance Armstrong. This book has taught me back workouts that strengthened my back and changed my life.

    I start chiro school next week. I understand that MD’s and DC’s are two completely different fields!!! I have needed both to help. The pain meds were rough, the anti-inflammatory’s meds helped, as well as the corizone shots into my back. But if it wasn’t for my chiro, my discs would have never regenerated as well as they did. If it wasn’t for my chiro I would have had surgery and spent SOOOO much money! My mobility is back and I live a healthy lifestyle now that strengthens my back rather than just guarding it from pain. My DC advises me to go to my primary care physician for some things regarding my back, and my MD advises me to go to my DC for others. They need to work in a synergistic relationship people! There are chiro schools such as my own that have been accredited by associations that are scientifically proven evidence based thought.

    I like to think of my future practice someday as similar to that of a yoga practice. In fact, I believe both yoga and chiropractic are extremely healthy for the back and body. Going to a chiropractor has taught me to always be conscious of back and learn new movements, nutrition and exercises to make my back feel amazing. And when I have full restored mobility to my spine, my entire life and well being are energized. Chiropractic healthcare is becoming more and more evidence based by nature, because of the doubt many people have with the old teachings of “subluxations”, those chiropractors are being phased out. By the way, subluxations are functional not structural.

    Anyways, I just wanted to chime in because I have spoke for many hours to my DC about the efficacy of chiropractic healthcare and what type of scam many DC’s are running out there. Sure, the vitamins DC’s are selling may be overpriced, and most will try to sell you things you dont need. But some DC’s will have vitamins that are excellent for anti-inflammatory purposes and wont damage your organs like most prescription grade AI’s. Being someone that has had damage from AI’s and painkillers I can attest that vitamins are the way to go. Anyone who has taken biochemistry knows that vitamins allow for processes to occur in the body that are natural. Prescription grade AI’s forces these processes to occur and damage organs.

    Point being, there are phony’s out there, DC’s MD’s dentists, even PT! Some chiro’s out there may have not had an evidence based curriculum, which is extremely problematic and can give a horrible name to DC’s everywhere. As someone who has studied neuroscience in school, I can say that we are soooo advanced in this field. Also, the amount of information we have left to learn is compared to exploring the ocean. My mom has Multiple Sclerosis and I hope neuroscience one day figures out why her autoimmune system is being triggered to attack itself. We dont have the technology yet to study everything. Chiropractic medicine has everything to do with the nervous system and more information is constantly being published about the positive use of adjustments to help the nervous system in one way or another. Read articles on Pubmed.com for anything and everything!
    There is a reason most adjustments by a reputable DC makes someone who has back problems feel better. Internally, at the cellular level, at the cellular communication level.

    We need medical doctors dear god! and chiropractic doctors are more of a specialty that help people like me when all my other options in western medicine have been tried. Back pain is still and always will be a major complaint with more and more people sitting down, in doors, on social media and desk jobs eating crap, gaining weight throwing off their spinal alignment and pinching nerves. Thank god for chiropractic medicine

    • “Thank god for chiropractic medicine”

      What a truly profound concluding statement! Neither gods nor chiropractors have yet managed to provide any solid empirical evidence for their efficacy beyond placebo. However, the similarity between gods and chiropractors hasn’t escaped the notice of those who understand the findings of science- and evidence-based medicine.

      • OK so I thought I would update my post.

        “thank god for chiropractic medicine”~ I may have been a little overly excited. I am a Protestant Christian and this statement was pre-mature of me to say. But what I found yesterday did relate God to Chiro work and I must say, this disturbing similarity Pete 628 describes between God and chiros is NOT ok.

        I went to orientation at chiro school yesterday. It was not all it was “cracked up” to be lol!!!!
        I am so thankful I read this blog before I attended it. I tried to prove my point in the blog because, lets face it, a chiro did help my pain with bulged discs, but ultimately, my pain has come back.

        I was disturbed at chiro school orientation by the “gimmick” feeling that was present. I was disturbed when a chiro told me we needed to learn 2,419 hours classwork so we could speak to MD’s on their level. That is on average 400 more hours of classwork than medical schools and for what? So chiro’s can just PROVE thier POINT? There seems to be a reason Chiro’s have to Argue how evidence-based their work really is. I was disturbed by the fact that for many, chiro school was a last resort. I was disturbed when I heard, “im just happy i FINALLY know what to do!” uttered for a students mouth. I was disturbed because I related and this was my last choice too….

        I am getting out of chiro school as soon as possible. I am going to immediately take the 2 remaining classes I need to take to get into PA school and get my pre-reqs in order. I have always wanted to become a PA, I just never had the balls to do it. UNTIL NOW.

        I will conclude with this.
        quote me please…
        Thank GOD I found out the quakery that takes place in even the best Chiropractic schools, and am now mentally prepared to do what I have to do to actually help people with medical problems!!!!!
        HORAY for this blog, and thank you to the man that started writing it! He really did help the chiropractic community by giving a warning out to any of us that might be tricked into joining it!

        • I like that you updated your post. Definitely food for thought.

          I did have one question though (and it’s an honest question.) Could you elaborate on why a student saying “I’m glad I finally know what to do!” disturbed you? That was the part that I didn’t understand, and I’m guessing there’s more to that part of the story. Everything else made sense to me (in context) except that part.

  • I don’t know, Bob. Your whole story sounds “gimmicky” to me. On the internet, anyone can write anything and be anyone they pretend to be. Your whole story sounds fishy at best. IOW, it fails the smell test, IMO.

    If you are really a soon-to-be former chiropractic college student, you will be missing out on helping others with drug-free approaches to health care. But if drugs is your thing, go ahead and enjoy. Best you get out now. PA skool sounds nice. You can do all the things that real MDs do like examine, write scripts for drugs, jab people with needles, poke your finger in various holes, have people cough on you — all with just a couple of years of PA school. And, also without the title of doctor and without getting a cut of the pie.

    So, get ready for long hours and plenty of work, making the MDs job easier since no one seems to get to see them anymore, you mostly see a PA now, and also no benefits an MD/partner would get. Bringing less MDs into the practice, means less partners, which means they don’t have to divide up the pie into ever smaller pieces. You just get a salary tjat upi will be happy to get since you will need a job and you will hope they will be in a good mood and give you a raise every few years. Otherwise you will leave after a few years like many do, seeking better wages.

    But if you are getting out of chiropractic college now, it is good that you listened to your inner voice and saved you and the college four years of aggravation. I am sure they will be sending you a thank you note shortly after your disappearance.

    Best of luck, Bob. Hope the grass is greener in PA land … (translation – It’s never greener in the other fellows yard.)

  • HA it is so much greener over here!!!

    Ahh I was so afraid the school would try and keep my FASFA money, being that more research I do I see now that after Palmer invented his “subluxation” THEORY in 1885 it was just that a THEORY, and chiropractic is just a business model to make money teaching other chiropractors!

    I am so relieved I dodged that bullet. My sister is a nurse and she loves it, I have friends that are PA’s a Love it. I wanted to go into chiropractic originally to help others with a more naturopathic outlook. But i realized, I can do that in the medical field! I dont have to recommend tons of drugs that cover up the symptoms and don treat the real problem.

    FYI- just because nerves in the spine run to different areas of the body does mean “cracking” an area of bone around them will heal anything! But lets face it, placebo affect is still very important to those that are giving up hope and are willing to spend money and try anything.

    Anyways, comment how you like about me, I just wanted to tell my story. Last time I ever look at this blog.

    I am so happy I didnt sell out and give up on medicine and turn to something I thought would sound prestigious and make money. CHiropractic????!!! LOL Its the blind leading the blind!!!

  • Hey btw,

    Skepdoc, when you get the flu do you take medication or get adjusted LOL

    Dont answer that, the correct answer is medication. But I know you will say adjustment 🙂

  • I am personally disgusted with this article, this book, this thread.
    Chiropractic correction has changed my life.
    Medication nearly killed me.
    “REAL DOCTORS”? Seriously?
    Please…keep going to the drug pushers and “death prolongers”. I will stick with what has worked for me. What has worked for the thousands of patients I have seen over the last 20 years…..
    We need to thin the herd anyway.
    Shelly
    [email protected]

  • For all you who say chiropractic does not work to fix back and neck pain: You could be right that for some reasons getting adjusted does not work but here is my testimonials for times in which I received some sort of chiropractic and how it helped me. At Ft. Hood Texas, I used to get my neck adjusted by Korean barbers who I would get an extra hair cut from later on in the week so I could tip and get the awesome massage after work because they would crack your upper neck just right to eliminate any pain, allowing a good sleep. I now see a chiropractor and get my lower back adjusted after getting slammed in the back of a HMMWV in OIF II and I feel pain relief, so if this is the goal, then it does work for that in my opinion. I know that this will never solve the debate, but thought I would add my observances so that it may help someone in the future.

  • It took me a very, very long time to get through all this but I wanted to make sure that I had read everything before I comment. I am originally from Germany and chiropractors are definitely not as popular over there as they seem to be in the USA or Canada. A lot of people don’t even know about this field.
    I have had my first experience with a chiropractor in NZ in 2009 after I experienced acute pain in my lower back that rsulted in me not being able to get up or move anymore. I have never felt that helpless in my life before. my former boss recommended I should see a Chiro so I did and I felt a lot better afterwards. When I discontinued my sessions due to me moving back to Germany my back problems came back on a regular basis and more and more frequent. I have consulted doctors, orthopedists, osteopaths as well as physio therapists and nothing seems to be THE right thing for me. Which is really frustrating. I now live in Canada and the two doctors I went to (both emergency doctors) have done little to nothing to examine me, tried to sell me on the idea that the back pain I experience might be due to problems with my kidneys and all they did was prescribe Tylenol and diclofenac. Needles to say they did jack squat in my case. Well, the diclo gave me stomach cramps after a while even though I took them with a meal. I have now started seeing a chiro again and at first I was quite optimistic. But now after having read all this I am doubting my desicion. I have had three consecutive sessions with him. He took a lot of time examining me, taking four x rays, explaining the procedures and adjusting me. I liked the fact that I wasn’t rushed through. But so far I have not felt an improvement yet. I know that people re very sore after their first adjustments but I can hardly move. That’s how sore I am. Basically, I only have one question. What could an MD do for me in this case? What would they do differently? I am quite certain that my pain is due to my hip displasia and the fact that one of my legs is 14mm (a little more than half an inch) longer than the other. Can that be regulated through adjustments?

  • Hi Astrid, you need chiropractic adjustments followed by some form of orthotic to address the leg length difference. If you do not do something to counter the drop on the short side you will get no long term benefit from any therapy. You will not need 14mm the possible actual difference but 5-7mm will more than enough to have a positive effect on pelvic alignment.

  • The fact that the NHS don’t refer is enough for me to be suspicious. That and the Chiropractor I saw told me I have flat feet when I know full well I don’t. So yes, let’s expose some of the less good things so that people aren’t diddled.

  • The “chiropractor” who started this thread is questionable. He illustrates the gullibility of many people. Does anyone really believe the a man would bash his own professions to such a degree. This foolishness confirms the extent to which the medical “profession” will reach to bash anything and anyone who competes with their dismal failure to cure disease and injury. How many people every year die at the hands of a chiropractor? How many die at the hands of a medical so-called professional? Over 250,000. In fact, there are a myriad of treatments with which chiropractors are very familiar that are successful at treating diseases at which the medical community is an abysmal failure. Cancer for just one example. Millions have died under the care of so called medical “doctors”, not from the cancer, but from the treatment. There have been cures for cancer for over 200 years. Chiropractors know about many of these but are not allowed to mention them because of the tyranny of the medical racket and the pharmaceutical industry, the most diabolical crime syndicate on the planet. You have to leave the U.S. to get treatment for cancer if you want to live and then pay for it out of you own pocket because the pharmaceutical industry and the medical racket have a stranglehold on so called “healthcare”. If the medical community is so successful at treating disease and injury, why have they moved heaven and earth to crush their competition? If a doctor of medicine OR chiropractic published a book about curing cancer, they will not only be put out of business, but many times have been mysteriously killed in one car “accidents”. The cancer industry is a racket and if we truly had an honest health care industry and an honest legal system with all modalities published and available, thousands of the chemotherapy and radiation pushers would be executed for murder. Check out all the books written about the Cancer racket by Ralph Moss and how the cures have been suppressed. And this is just ONE disease. There are many at which the medical community are a complete failure. I believe this guy who started this absurd thread is a plant. How much do you suppose they paid him to print this ridiculous nonsense?

    • “There have been cures for cancer for over 200 years. Chiropractors know about many of these but are not allowed to mention them because of the tyranny of the medical racket and the pharmaceutical industry, the most diabolical crime syndicate on the planet.”
      YOU ARE ALLOWED TO MENTION THEM HERE. WHAT ARE THEY? LET US ALL BENEFIT FROM YOUR KNOWLEDGE, PLEASE.
      oh, by the way: cancer is not just “ONE disease”.

  • Here’s the way I see it. Chiropractors are like automotive mechanics. A good one will look at the problems you describe, diagnose the issue in terms of their ability to repair, and work to fix the issue. A bad one will try and tell you that you are low on headlight fluid and that your flux capacitor is broken.

    Chiropractors are a very specialized form of medical professional who have a specific field of study. I personally would not trust a chiropractor who said they could aid with anything non-musculoskeletal, because that is what they are supposed to do. Likewise, I would not trust a dentist who said he could cure my impotence by removing my right bicuspid (I’ve actually had this happen).

    Chiropractors are considered pseudoscience hacks by the community at large because of a loud group who feel the need to take advantage of unsuspecting dolts. I have gone to chiropractors multiple times for minor adjustments due to my lifestyle as a martial artist. I have never once had a chiropractor suggest that I come in for 50-100 sittings. The most I have ever had for sessions for a single issue was about 7. That was because the pain, while slowly lessening, didn’t go away after three visits.

    I guess what I’m trying to say here is that you need to do your research before approaching any medical professional. Make sure they have training from a reputable school. If they offer services outside the realm of musculoskeletal then look somewhere else, and if they try and sell you some grossly large number of treatments then walk away.

    • Well I AM an automotive technician and I can assure you that chiropractors are *nothing* like me. What I do cures the problem in question and has guaranteed and proven results. Neither good nor bad automotive mechanics would enter into discussions about flux capacitors (like chiropractic subluxations, they belong in the world of fiction). Even the worst ones won’t offer to manipulate your chassis subframe in order to cure a misfire from the engine.
      Strangely enough there are a whole load of people out there who are incapable of assimilating simple facts about very simple machines such as are automobiles: yes you can buy snake oil for cars too, and there is a whole industry living off that very fact…. oil additives….. fuel additives… silly magnets to go around your fuel pipes….. no need to constrain your pre-enlightenment, pre-luddite predilections to the doctor’s surgery: They can prevail throughout all of your life.

  • I have read this list of 20 objections to chiropractic and I want to tell you that chiropractic has changed my life. When I started serious chiropractic – 3x a week for a year, 2x a week for a year, then 1x a week for a year, now I go every month – I was seriously subluxated, and I was physically and psychologically impaired. Chiropractic has opened u my nervous system, improved my immune system, and improved my sleep and overall feeling of wellbeing. All a medical would have done for me is give me drugs. If I dont go to the chiropractor, my body begins to stiffen up and I develop problems in my knees, which are immediately resolved by chiropractic. I dont believe chiropractor is good for specific diseases, nor do I want or need this. Chiropractic improves my overall level of health, wellbeing, and functioning, and that is what I need and want. I suppose there is some risk with anything, but I have never had an adverse reaction to chiropractic and I get this benefit without the use of powerful drugs that weaken the body and increase the body’s susceptibility to disease by weaking the natural capacity of the body to heal itself. thank you

    • I am so glad for you – have you tried faith healing yet?

      • @Edzard.
        Alexander is already receiving faith healing. The faith is his. His faith in the chiropractor.
         
        @Alexander
        You know what? When I tried this kind of faith healing for my lumbago many years ago, my knowledge of anatomy, physiology and neurology soon had me lose faith in the chiropractor. A friend who, like you, spent regular money on the bloke just in case, had recommended this to me and I was in really bad shape so I was ready to believe anything. My faith started dwindling fast when the chiro tried to tell me they could heal everything from Appendicitis to Zoster by thumping the spine. But I kept going because I wasn’t really recuperating and the literature said chiropractic could help with uncomplicated LBP, which was what I had.
        I quit when the bl…y bunco artist stopped being all friendly and relaxed and forthcoming and started his weekly 2-minute money-making repetitions on me. Then I realized at last that he was only in it for the money. The only thing that really improved during these months was his bank balance.
        I look back on this time with horror because the bloke insisted on wringing my neck every other session even if I have never had problems with it. He said it was a preventive measure.
        He could have torn my VBA’s and I could have ended up worse than dead, for Christ’s sake!!! :/
         
        Did your chiro warn you about the possible but rare complications?

        • “Bjorn and Edzard” I am happy that you feel the need to seek truth through discussion and scientific evidence. But do you not feel sad regarding how many times you state personal attacks are petty and have no place here while continuously doing so yourselves?

    • Alexander Duncan said:

      When I started serious chiropractic … I was seriously subluxated…

      Oh?! Did your chiropractor tell you that?

  • I have not read the book, but want to contribute my experience with GP and DC’s for its anecdotal worth.

    In attempting to treat lower back pain and sciatica which was impacting my ability to work significantly, I went the GP route. The GP’s offered me drugs, some of which were later pulled by the FDA for causing damage to heart and digestive areas. I took myself off the drugs before these were pulled as I observed symptoms/side affects. I also saw various types of specialists from othopedics to rheumatologists. I was offered a surgery which would have quite certainly had devastating long term impacts on my mobility (offered to fuse my hypermobile SI joint), I declined. I was offered drugs which would seriously diminish my immune system (on purpose to lower inflammation) and I declined over my concerns for increased risk of cancer (statistically significant). In short, the GP’s offered short term relief which all but guaranteed serious long term complications. Pass. Mind you, my pain was so bad that I was on crutches most days as a young man in my mid twenties.

    I had been simultaneously seeing a few DC’s to see if I could get some relief. I ran across many quacks but then got a referral to a DC that was trained in Atlas Orthogonal methodology. Within two weeks I was feeling much better. The acute phase was past and I was able to patiently continue to research and try to find non-invasive ways to manage my health (dietary changes, supplements, and physical therapy). Within 6 months I was back to surfing, climbing trees and carrying my children and oh yeah, working.

    Fast forward almost twenty years, I live in area without an atlas orthogonal DC. I CAREFULLY selected a chiro and they know not to manually adjust my neck. I call when I feel I need a visit and they don’t pressure me into signing up for a plan. I am on no prescriptions.

    There are lots of quacks out there in both GP and DC practice. Some will take your money. Some will compromise your future health. I have found that you have to take the mindset that you are the contractor and they are the subs. Know what you want done. Choose them carefully. Watch them closely. Fire them quickly if needed.

    For what its worth, both DC’s that I have respect for have graduated from LIFE and are within the Upper Cervical Specialty class of DC’s.

    • @Jamie Davis
      Your story is a positive one and it is shared by many. The problem is, no one adds up all the negative anecdotes to detract from the positives. My anecdote (previously recounted a few times here on the blog) for example, nullifies yours, using simple arithmetic: One minus one is zero. We have no idea how many negatives there are. We also know that there are millions who get better who never went to a chiropractor. Shouldn’t we detract them also?
      I have a longer part of my life than I care to recall, working in ER’s. I have frequently discussed this with active ER physicians who sigh and tell of all the cases who come crawling in or rolling in on stretchers in desperate pain after an unsuccessful visit or two at the chiropractor’s. There is no system of reporting and auditing these cases and most colleagues just shrug their shoulders and tend to more important business. There are not many who are prepared to take up a fight against the chiropractic community, driven by a “mother’s instinct” of protecting the livelihood of a large professional body.
       
      I am sure there are a lot of chiropractors, like the one you tell us about Jamie, who have a large uptake area and an attractive modus operandi, who do not need to apply many of the devious “practice building” methods to make an acceptable income. Like having people come for weekly “preventive adjustments” or the more despicable ones like lying to parents that 95% of infants have misalignments after birth that should be attended to by chiropractic care.
      That there are people out there calling themselves chiropractors or even “Doctors” of chiropractic who are adept at getting the odd case of acute lumbago out of bed, is no proof that the long dead, halfwit magnetic healer D.D. Palmer, invented a useful medical system.
       
      Chiropractors rely heavily, albeit unknowingly, on a system of delusion, suggestion and conjuring to mislead their clients into believing that the peculiar demonstration of “adjusting the spine” cures whatever ails them.
      I think this video illustrates extremely well the deep deception of chiropractic care. A teenaged, obviously very ambitious dancer hurts her knee and is devastated about it. Mother rushes her to the chiropractor. The chiro examines the knee to rule out serious injury (straightforward if you know how to) Then he starts the hour long show of make-believe and pretends to do magic medicine by “adjusting” the girls spine!! In reality the chiro has done nothing but soothe and reassure and get the girl to go up and move about as time works its wonders. Notice then how the chiro uses reinforcement to make sure the child and her mother are in complete awe at the apparent miracle. “Can’t believe it can you?” and then he tells her it will take some days to get even better. How many times do you think I have done similar therapy myself in the ER or at home or anywhere for that matter, in my decades of genuine doctor work? But maybe I failed to make a big show of it, pull rabbits out of my cap and tell the moms in so many words how extremely lucky their child was to have come to me instead of the useless chiropractor and so on.
      What would have happened if the girl had a torn ligament for real? The chiro would have had to refer her to the ER wouldn’t he?
      Why did the mother rush her daughter to the chiropractor? Because he has previously lied[sic] to them that he can fix anything and they should come to him first for any ailment or injury. The problem with chiropractic is that they have in fact delusions of grandeur. Otherwise they do not stay in business, as we have seen.
       
      It is the “spinal adjustment” theatrical placebo that is the fraud and swindle part of the whole racket of chiropractic care.

  • I have 6 brothers and I am the only one who receives chiropractic treatment in last 15 years, my brothers tend to age more and have stiffer backs , they don’t sit down like me 8 hours a day. I have been remarked as fittest , more active in the family and have best posture. So I believe chiropractic treatment keeps the spine subtle and enhances good posture. Perhaps the disease part prevention is exaggerated with chiro treatment but overall nearly ans Skelton structural health , chiro is the way to go for middle aged people.

  • My spine is obviously out-( chiropractor sent for X rays)
    If chiropratic cannot straighten my head and neck, who can ? What else can I do?

  • Had bypass heart surgery. Getting my chest split and wired back together left me with a “caved – in” situation, I guess my body’s attempt to minimize the pain. Four months after surgery, I went to my primary care doctor, the best doctor I’ve ever seen. When she went through my list of issues, the final one was my back. Because I’d become hunched over, my back was completely out of whack compared to what it was before the surgery. She said I needed come chiroptory, but, at 65, I’d never been to one, and was extremely leary of the standard anecdotal evidence of the profession’s methods. What I was afraid of was:
    1. Let’s take an x-ray;
    2. These are the seven places your are non-aligned;
    3. We can do something today to make you feel better, but this is the 83-visit schedule for us to cure you;
    4. Much of your problems are diet/sleep position/exercise method/”aura” etc. related and here are the 19 things we need to repair those conditions;
    5. You came to me just in time and you really don’t, in fact shouldn’t be taking those drugs for condition x and over the next ~~ months we’ll heal those conditions as well.

    When I told my doctor about my reservations, she snorted a little, and recommended a local chiropractor who was none of those things. I went to his office, did some paperwork, went with him to the table room, and we talked. He had a spine model, and I showed him where the pain concentration was on the model, he put me on his table and finished his initial evaluation. One leg was ridding a little shorter than the other, and from looking at my posture and where I indicated on the model my pain was, he explained what he was going to do, how he was going to do it, what to expect during the manipulation. He manipulated my mid-thorax and my sacril/hip area, one with a pop and one without.

    The pain relief was immediate, the posture (long/short leg) not really evident. He took me out to his self-help room and demonstrated and explained both a large ball and a long hard foam tube use. He told me I could get them both at Walmart, and didn’t even offer to sell me anything.

    He also told me that I was my best detective. I should memorize how I felt after the treatment, and when I started to feel more like the before than the after, it was time to come see him again. He said he expected one more visit, and on the outside, two more visits, but I would be the judge on how much and how frequent the visits were.

    I did go back one more time, about 6 weeks later. During that time, I found that my insurance would cover 30 visits, but I had to pay the first $60 of each visit, and the chiropractic fees were $50/visit, both initial and follow-up.

    I haven’t had to go back again. A friend at work, who played defensive tackle on a college national-championship team, when I told him about the hard foam roll, remarked “Hell, yeah. That’s one of the dirty little secrets big-time athletic trainers know all about. Everyone on the team was on that roll every day.”

    This sounds much more in line with Preston Long’s general thrust. Treat what your experience and schooling tell you can be treated. Don’t do bunches of extras. Don’t try and sell add-ons. Minimize the client’s interactions, expenses, and dependence. Provide self-help and coaching. All these characteristics are shared with my primary care doctor. In fact, the chiropractor told me he had to apologize for most in his profession who tried to do too much, treat too much, sell too much, and become involved in too much, and he really didn’t go down that road himself.

    As a sidelight, because of his approach, I think, he is the busiest chiropractor in town. The schools use him, doctors regularly send necessary cases to him, and getting an appointment is sometimes tough.

    I know this is all anecdotal, and a single data point, but there are chiropractors that do more with less and help tons. I was lucky to be where he was available.

  • Dr. Long, if you feel this way about the chiropractic profession then why did you stay in practice for as long as you did? These “things” that “most” chiropractors won’t tell the public may be true about the chiropractors that graduated decades ago, but as the profession grows and becomes more integrative, these claims do not hold much truth. Many of these claims are also reflective of one’s own character and integrity as a professional such as “promising too much”, “offering unnecessary services”, “taking too many x-rays”, and charging vitamins “much more than it costs”. These are not valid claims that represent the entire chiropractic profession as a whole. There are plenty of chiropractors who put the patient first and do not promise what they are unsure of, take unwarranted radiographs, and take advantage of patients by overcharge them for supplements. Our title of Doctor of Chiropractic should not be devalued by comparing our education to that of a medical doctor. Of course our education has a different focus than the medical profession. Student interns will see patients with complaints of aches and pains because those are the people that seek chiropractic care. Medical students will have experience with a vast variety of pathologies because those are the patients that the medical profession deals with. In the chiropractic education, students learn of the red flags or signs that indicate a much more serious condition that needs medical attention. An educated chiropractor would and should refer out that patient immediately. Chiropractic manipulations have always been under scrutiny about its association with dangerous consequences such as stroke, but patients should always be educated about these risks beforehand. What medical procedure out there today does not have a potential dangerous risk to it? Research in the chiropractic seems hard to come by but there is research out there done by other professions who use manipulative therapy as part of their treatment, such as osteopaths and physical therapists. Why are chiropractors so heavily criticized for manipulative therapy when there are other professions who use it as treatment for the same effects? It is disappointing to see posts like this in a time where chiropractic is growing more popular and becoming more of an integral part in the health care system.

  • I only skimmed thru the comments and haven’t read your book. But you seem like a total douche with a name like Preston.

    • Fernando said:

      I only skimmed thru the comments and haven’t read your book. But you seem like a total douche with a name like Preston.

      Thanks for your opinion, but I think we know what to do with it.

  • Well he correct on a few points but wrong on most. Being a Chiropractor myself I tend to warn patients about the unethical practices of the Chiropractic Profession. It takes skill to be a good Doctor. I’ve been practicing for over 15 years and my Father and Uncle over 40 and I have met few Chiropractors who I’d actually see.

    Stay away from a Chiropractor who wants X-rays off the bat without doing a physical exam and patient History.
    Stay away from a Chiropractor that uses the Term “Subluxation” which is a made up term meaning joint dysfunction.
    Stay away from a Chiropractor that wants you to invest in long term care on your 1st visit. Any good Doctor can’t guarantee results or know how a patient will respond. I realize i have only a two week window to help a patient correct their problem.

    True most Chiropractors know little about Nutrition but it’s far more than most medical Doctors.
    In many ways Chiropractors have a far superior schooling at least as far as being a Health professional instead of a Drug pusher. Chiropractors must receive a minimum of 6-8 years of college education.

    A Chiropractor Get TWICE as many hours in anatomy and physiology,
    pathology, diagnosis and more that 3 times the amountof X-rays.
    Surprised!

  • If you’re a chiropractor and it is a shady profession by your own confession, why would you harm your peers with an article like this? What conditions DO reputable chiropractors treat? I’m curious.

    • Chiropractors can help with issues regarding the Neck & Back.
      Look for a reputable clinic that supplies all around care or personal referrals by others in your community.

  • To put it bluntly, This skeptic view is severely biased, not to mention as unfounded as they claim the opposite to be so.

    Those of us that actually physically work for a living and have a good relationship with our DC can attest to the validity of the treatments for back and neck issues including scoliosis, after 35 years of treatment, I am still standing straighter and definitely still stronger than most.

    Chiro had done me a world of good for what it was meant for, Back and neck pain. And of course there are side effects like less stress on other body systems because there is less stress over all, no severe headaches due to my neck being out, no restricted movement because my back is out.

    Chiro is not quackery!
    It helps keep the body, (bones & Joints) in “Alignment” allowing your bodies natural healing process to work a lot more effectively by not having to work around an adjustable issue.

    Anything beyond that, is out of range of my comment as I do not subscribe to healing crystals or other snake oil.

    The Choice is yours to make. You do not have to like or subject your self to any treatment, but I have and will continue to recommend chiropractic care by a good DC to anyone that wants to keep themselves in a healthy state rather than in Physio for extended periods of time.
    Regard,
    Darrell

    • @Darrell
      You have obviously listened very well to your chiropractor and not much else.
      – Have you ever wondered why you are so convinced that the chiropractor has been instrumental in your well-being?
      – Have you ever wondered who it was that told you regular “adjustments” were necessary for all those years?
      – Have you ever wondered how many thousand millions manage to get through life without ever being “adjusted”? Even those with scoliosis. Millions of them never get chiropractic and do fine. People with scoliosis are normally not seeing a physiotherapist regularly for decades, unless of course the physio is lying to them that frequent ministrations are necessary.
      – Have you ever wondered why the chiropractor insists on repeat “preventive” adjustments, even in periods when you are feeling well?
      – Have you ever added up the amount of money you (your insurance?) paid for “adjustments” these 35 years?
      – Have you ever wondered what your life would have been like had you never gone to a chiropractor but kept yourself in shape with physical activity, exercise and the odd visit with a physiotherapist?
      – Have you ever read up on the history of chiropractic and how it was invented[sic] and established by an uneducated magnetic healer who was demonstrably not altogether in possession of his faculties?
      – Have you ever wondered what your chiropractor means when he says your neck or back is “out”?
      – Have you ever checked whether anyone other than chiropractors, has been able to find and confirm the “misalignments” that chiropractors claim to be “adjusting” ?
      – Have you ever wondered why many chiropractors say that “adjustments” strengthen the immune system and if this is even possible? (it is not)
      – Have you ever wondered why chiropractors claim that 95% of infants have spinal “misalignments” caused by the birth process that require chiropractic care? Hundreds of millions who do not get such care grow up to be fine anyway. How come?
       
      Well, I could go on for a long time.
      Of course the choice is yours, whether you continue to support your chiropractor but the totality of knowledge and evidence adds up to say you have been misled and are wasting both time and money.
      Before you reply, read up on the matter, try to find answers that not only support your preconceived faith in the chiropractor.
      Maybe even test the assumption that your chiropractor has been pulling your leg, so to speak, for 35 years?

  • @Björn
    Yes I have wondered numerous things,
    Like:
    Why are there so many of you well read, Professionals out there that have such a closed mind that you can not accept that another profession may be able to do some good for people?
    Why are you so adamantly against something that has worked for Millions of people?
    Why has there been so many people that have not looked at Chiropractic care as a relief to neck & back pain?
    Why do some MD’s refuse to consider that there may be some validity to other forms of treatment?
    Why does the medical and pharmaceutical interests lobby so hard against the Chiropractic field, What are they and you afraid of?

    I have never been instructed by a chiropractor on anything that is not related to bones, muscles and nerves.

    FYI,
    My first treatment was 30 years ago @ 18, after a skiing accident where my shoulders were introduced to a 5″ poplar trunk at about 15 mph. I had lived with 5 weeks of Dr. prescribed muscle relaxants along with 4 weeks of physio. Both were unsuccessful in alleviating the pain and stiffness in my back. Both the attending Dr, and Physiotherapist could see and feel the lump, (out of place vertebrae). Both said it will fall back into place, just give it time and make sure you come back 3 times a week until it does. Sound Familiar?

    Before the injury, I was very active and very healthy. I participated in every sport I could from golf to football.
    A team-mates grandfather noticed my condition at a school sports event. I was benched because I couldn’t hardly move. He was the local Chiropractor and gave me a brief exam followed by a mild “adjustment” right there in the locker room. I heard the pop felt something move. All he said was to ice it for a day or so and then come see him.
    Less than 3 hours later I felt a huge relief in the stiffness and pressure, and even more relief and improvement in the next couple of days.

    I did go to his office on that 3rd day and he did provide a full treatment on my back & neck. He said, “See how that feels and come back if you need to”, Within 3 days I was without pain and back in the game. I had only seen him 1 other time, after another sports injury and to the same result, Pressure and tension started to be released within hours of the adjustment, and was completely gone within a couple of days.

    Since then, I am still quite active, in good shape and healthier and stronger than 80% of the population. I have had only occasional issues and when I feel something “out”, I go for a treatment, He adjusts it and rarely do I have to go back for follow up visits.

    Note:
    -I have been told more often by MD’s to make another appointment than by a DC.
    -I have never had a DC tell me that anything about other illness cures or about how babies require treatments? That must be a USA thing.

    But It does stand to reason that if your body has less issues to deal with that it can apply its built in healing characteristics to other issues that may be within.

    I have only posted my experience, which one can take or leave for what it is.
    But I do wonder why you feel that you have to defend your position so venomously?
    Why are you are so against something that you obviously have not tried nor ever will.
    Why do you feel that you have to spout such rhetoric that has no place in the current profession?

    Chiropractic treatments, have enabled me live without pain, invasive surgery or countless hours in physio.

    I will continue to gladly share my experience with anyone.

    • One time I got stuck on traffic and I imagined that I got super power to make all people drive. Guess what, all people began to drive !
      I must have super power.
      Or maybe, just maybe, anecdote doesn’t count as a proof of anything ?
      The fact is that you wanted, like many people, a treatement because you were persuaded that you needed one. And the chiro, a clever man for sure, tell you that, of course you need one, using your confirmation bias to make money. In fact, you don’t need anything more than a little exercising (for free), like, well, all the people in the world to stay in shape !

      • Darrell said “I have only posted my experience, which one can take or leave for what it is.”

        Quark said “Or maybe, just maybe, anecdote doesn’t count as a proof of anything ?”

        Where was the part where Darrell was saying his experience qualified as proof?

        • jm, i guess you are very bad at the inference thing.
          The fact is that Darrell post his personnal story to argue that chiro may be useful. For him, clearly, his personnal experience is a proof that chiro maybe useful, otherwise he wouldn’t even talk about it this way (exemple : ‘Why are there so many of you well read, Professionals out there that have such a closed mind that you can not accept that another profession may be able to do some good for people?’, in fact I could just quote his entire post).
          Please jm, make an effort to read the whole exchange, it’s pretty OBVIOUS that Darrell believe that chiro have done something for him, and that he ‘tell his story’ trying to be convincing, and i guess this kind of story is pretty convincing for many people. So I underline the fact that he is irrelevent in case those people read him, because you know, it’s a public blog.

          • Quark – Yup, it’s pretty obvious that Darrell believes that chiro has done something for him. It’s equally obvious he’s aware that his experience is anecdotal.

        • @Björn
          Prejudiced may not be the right word for Björn, But I feel that his elitist arrogance is very misplaced. A MD that truly cares for others would revel in the fact that another less invasive process has medicinal benefits and is no longer ignored by the enlightened health care professionals.
          @JM I do appreciate you speaking your mind.
          @Quark,
          If I have to be blunt, so you can understand what i am trying to get across; Chiro has made me able to move and produce on a daily basis for well over 30 years, And I will continue with treatments when they are needed for the rest of my life or for as long as I want to feel good anyway.

          • Darrell, I think that there is a logical error in your reasoning (an error that all of us make sometimes). You claim that your back problem was alleviated by a chiropractor and you have drawn the conclusion that it is the principles of chiropractic that alleviated your back problem: this is apparent from your statement “Chiro has made me able to move and produce on a daily basis for well over 30 years”. Some [most?] chiropractors know far more than just the principles of chiropractic therefore I suggest that it is this additional knowledge that is more likely to have alleviated your problem.

            When we accuse professionals of being closed minded, what we should be doing is guarding ourselves against having become so open minded that our brains are about to fall out. The best means of guarding ourselves is to openly admit that we can be easily fooled by our plethora of cognitive biases combined with our anecdotal evidence, then ask professionals/experts what they think. Telling professionals that they are closed minded is the same as clearly telling them that we have no wish to learn from them because our dogma trumps their closed-minded knowledge. It certainly isn’t the professionals on this forum who you are accusing of being closed minded that will end up looking foolish.

          • @ Pete Attkins – You should re-read Darrell’s posts. Your personal bias seems to be getting in the way of understanding what he is actually saying.

          • Jm, The only personal bias that I think I made was simply using the Principle of Charity[1] towards Darrell’s rhetoric regarding his use of chiropractors and charitably extending it to some/many other chiropractors. I dismiss the principles of chiropractic[2] as abject nonsense, but I was certainly not dismissing all chiropractors as being ineffective.

            I’m really surprised that you failed to spot this very important distinction, jm. Out of interest, what is your profession?

            1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity
            2. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Chiropractic

          • “The only personal bias that I think I made was simply using…”

            That’s the tricky thing about bias, eh?

          • The resident GuaSharlatan proves once again that he/she can provide only silly comments — a good demonstration of the utter depth of bankruptcy that is required in the areas of professionalism, critical thinking, and modern science, in order to become an alt-med apologist.

    • Both the attending Dr, and Physiotherapist could see and feel the lump, (out of place vertebrae)…

      Well, well, Darrell… You certainly got duped by your chiropractor.
      I am a surgeon with a couple of decades of trauma experience in the US and Europe so I should know a bit about these things.
      I assume of course that your spine was X-rayed. It is practically impossible to leave a North American ER after an injury without a hearty dose of the revealing rays. I doubt it is any different in Canada than in the US.
      Especially if there are clinical findings it is obligatory to take proper X-rays. If a displacement of a vertebra was visible/palpable clinically it would certainly have been associated with a fracture (albeit small) and detectable on x-ray. Remember who it was that told you it was an “out of place vertebra”? Maybe it is hard to recall after 30+ years of repetitive chiropractic “faith-induction” but it most certainly wasn’t the ER attending who would have seen a displacement on x-ray. They actually look minutely for that.
      No I bet it was the chiro, as part of his technique of making sure you become a prime customer. The pop you heard/felt was one of the tricks of the trade. It is not the vertebra falling in place. It comes from cavitation of fluid in the small synovial joints on either side. Same phenomenon as cracking knuckles. Doesn’t happen every time but when it does it is an extra rabit from the conjurers hat, so to speak.
      If your vertebra had really been recently dislocated by trauma, such a manipulation would most certainly have caused agonising pain right there because it stretched/moved traumatised tissue or bone.
      The chiropractor would not have been able to work his rapid “wonders” on such an injury.
      A visible/palpable deformity in the spinal area after trauma without an x-ray detectable fracture dislocation is certainly nothing other than a hematoma and spasm in a paravertebral muscle.
      What the chiro did was suggest you into getting moving, which is what you needed. Ice packs probably helped too and I wonder if you didn’t take some pain killers as well? I would have.
       
      You were actually tricked. Just like the little girl and her mother in this revealing video, who got a minor injury of her knee. Being an ambitious dancer she is of course terrified and her mother too. The chiropractor, who has taught the family to come running to him every time a health problem occurs (I believe the chiro-technical phrase for this is “practice building”) makes sure with simple examination (easy) that there is no significant trauma and then starts a big theatre of his awe-inspiring manipulation skills. He doesn’t do anything really to the injured part but performs a theatrical spinal “adjustment” and convinces mom and child that this will help cure the knee, which is of course an anatomical and physiological impossibility. With this make-believe therapy and the simple power of verbal suggestion (notice how he repeats suggestive questions) and reassurance he gets her up and moving which of course “dramatically” relieves much of the spasm and pain, just like with your back. I have done this hundreds of times with all kinds of minor injuries, even of the back. It is rather fun playing the hero doctor who makes small miracles like this happen in the ER just by suggestion and reassurance but without silly manipulations.
      A skillful ER-physician is even better at this game than the chiros because they can also give effective fast working pain killers and relaxants (if needed). Ask any ER attending how often they get people crawling or stretchered in with severe spasmodic lumbago, who have been at the chiropractor’s who effected only temporary relief but it all came back as it often does. Such cases usually do not return to the chiro who remains blissfully biased by the subset of thankful, returning patients like Darrell.

  • Enlightening information, I did not know that the sounds that are made but the adjustment of the back and neck have no therapeutic effect. I did hurt my back several years ago while lifting boxes at work and went to a chiropractor to get some relief. I really felt that it made a big difference for me with my pain level. http://www,transformationchiropractic,com/unique-approach/

  • @ Sara Stout

    After a brief exercise with Google using details from this comment, a pungent stench of pathetic spamming pervades my senses!

    • Thanks, Björn. I did check her comment at the time and removed the link to the website, but after a quick check, I couldn’t find the text repeated anywhere so I gave her the benefit of the doubt. But, you’re right, it does look similar to a lot of other chiro spam Prof Ernst gets.

  • After reading some of the comments here I cannot but help to be continually astounded by the blanket prejudiced which some people hold against an entire professional class. Prejudice is wrong, whether it’s directed against ethnicity, or licensed professionals. The fact is, as a DC I go to work every day to work with my hands, applying manual therapies to help increase the function and decrease suffering that people present to me for. I have provided a valuable service to peoples from all walks of life, from scientists to plumbers. No matter how many people we help, those who prejudice against us do not care, because it will only amount to “anecdotal .” However, if they here someone gets hurt from a DC, now that anecdote becomes “proof” of some failure of chiropractic. I know that I, and many thousands of other DC’s do not engage in all of these horrific practices that these chiro hater people here say we do. Rather, we use our hands and brains, to apply some form of correction to the human tissue — without drugs or surgery.
    Now how can that be bad? I actually studied philosophy and received a BA in that prior to studying science and going on to studying chiropractic. A renown man by the name of Bernard Longergan described a “dark room” that exists in many peoples minds, a place where ones intellect will fail to reasonably explore, and will always deny. This is what I see here with the blanket prejudiced thrown out against our professional class. It’s something worse than anti-intellectual because its in the realm of sheer prejudiced and hate. I see people like Bjorn G an intellect less than close minded, rather
    its arrogance duped by convalescent ignorance. Bjorn, and people like you are pathetically primitive, because you arrogantly criticize what you do not know, and cannot recognize your own intellectual limitations. And one last thing, I am pretty sure the market would have weeded chiropractic out were it no efficacious. Go ahead and see what some people are saying about their chiropractors on Yelp. I can cut and past some if you like.

    • nicholas said:

      After reading some of the comments here I cannot but help to be continually astounded by the blanket prejudiced which some people hold against an entire professional class. Prejudice is wrong, whether it’s directed against ethnicity, or licensed professionals. The fact is, as a DC I go to work every day to work…

      Ah! I think I see your problem.

    • @nicholas
      I usually do not address ‘ad hominem’-attackers and bigot commenters, at least not in first person. But I will make one exception here, as you are obviously naive to the issue, and respectfully address some of what you write.
       
      The physicians who “treated” George Washington for his upper respiratory infection in 1799, also held the strong belief that the methods they had learned were helping their clients.
      It was not until later the medical community realised how easy it is to fool and the easiest one to fool was yourself. When physicians learned how to count and calculate proportions, they found that if you not only counted the satisfied customers but also divided by all[sic] the dissatisfied (and dead and non-healed) customers, the result told them that bloodletting and other nonsense methodology wasn’t all that great.
      The accumulated evidence for the efficacy of chiropractic methodology produces the same result.
       
      Notwithstanding your understandable chagrin as a scholar of chiropractic and reliant on its practice for your income, ‘prejudice’ is not the correct term to use for our attitude towards your profession and calling. Critique — based on rational analysis of facts, established scientific knowledge and credible research — is more fitting.
       I have to remind that I did try chiropractic for LBP and the only improvement from those ministrations was in his income. I did honestly believe that it could help me and gave it a good chance to do so. This was before I studied what chiropractic really stands for. This experience was part of the reason I turned seriously skeptic towards make-believe medicine of any type.
       
      The discipline of chiropractic, is a singular invention by one man, a spiritualist and magnetic healer completely lacking medical or physiological knowledge. It was not developed from experience and research. Practically none of the original ideas have been rejected by its disciples. Its theoretical basis flies in the face of confirmed facts. The fundamental spinal problem the discipline bases all its pathognomonic theories on, the subluxations can not be confirmed with modern imaging or other techniques. It is still practised today, in approximately the manner it was originally conjured, with only minor modifications if any. The accumulated evidence does not support more than very minor efficacy in uncomplicated LBP. Otherwise the effect is not more than as expected from a theatrical placebo therapy. It is not without harm, albeit luckily not so frequent but potentially serious. As a consequence the discipline of chiropractic is the modern equivalent (albeit less injurious) of bloodletting.
       
      I have in some of my prior comments demonstrated how chiropractors fool the patients and themselves at the same time. I gave as a graphic example a link to a video (see recent comment of mine above) showing a chiropractor fooling himself and the patient into thinking a minor knee injury could be treated by manipulation of the spinal column. If I were rude and a fool I would call him an improper name or two but he is blatantly unknowing about the cognitive errors he is using to confirm his erroneous inference from his counting of ‘satisfied customers’.
      The “lucky strike” patient’s praise and public declarations of support for the skills and magic of their chiropractor of course do wonders to avert his cognitive dissonance.
      A chiropractor performs a series of seemingly skillful examinations, takes fancy x-rays and performs impressive manual maneuvers. A proportion of “lucky strike”-patients who happen to get better comes back and asks for more, the rest either loses faith despite spontaneous improvement or comes crawling into the ER for genuine medical attention as I previously described. There will always be a number of patients who can tell the story of how the pain diminished soon after an “adjustment” but where are the counts of ‘failed’ adjustments to use as a divider?
       
      I could go on but my brother just called. He needs me to bring out the truck because he is snowed in.
      You will also have to make do with fewer informative and supporting reference links than I had planned.
       
      Please feel free nicholas, to bring to the field your opinions and any evidence you have. Perhaps you have done an audit and can show us results from properly performed outcome studies of your own patients? That is what we doctors do all the time and use to find out what works and what not.
       
      But please refrain from bigotry and attempts at belittling your adversaries. Such behaviour is reserved for the resident trolls.
       
      Cheers
      Björn

  • “Bjorn G an intellect less than close minded, rather
    its arrogance duped by convalescent ignorance. Bjorn, and people like you are pathetically primitive, because you arrogantly criticize what you do not know, and cannot recognize your own intellectual limitations. And one last thing, I am pretty sure the market would have weeded chiropractic out were it no efficacious. Go ahead and see what some people are saying about their chiropractors on Yelp. I can cut and past some if you like.”

    Really, you are calling other people arrogant with this kind of behavior ? How hard is your cognitive dissonance today ?

  • Thanks Edz for censoring my posts. you must feel like a big man here able to do that, cherry pick like that.

    I cannot but help to think that this obsession people have trying to denigrate an honorable profession somehow reflects some anti-social behavior. Bjorn, if you are a physician, you are that because it gives you a sense of power, not because you care about humanity. People that care about humanity, doctors that care about humanity, do their best to learn from other sources outside their sphere. I am just curious Bjorn, when you were a kid, do you remember yourself needlessly torturing small animals, like frogs, just for the fun of it? Did you help your brother out of the snow to make yourself feel more important. Oh, maybe you are a good person, and I got it all wrong, but usually humanitarians do not deprecate entire classes of people.

    • thanks for this – I think people will get a fairly good idea why I did not post your other comments.

      • Let’s be clear about one thing. I have deep respect for my fellow human beings. I have no respect however for make-believe pseudomedicine and I express my views on such matters in no uncertain words.
         
        When a practitioner of curious manipulations that I upon recommendation trusted with helping me treat my own acute lumbago, tries to convince me, a trauma- and general surgeon, that he can induce healing of asthma and allergy, ulcers and ADHD and whatnot, simply by thumping the spine — then I got seriously suspicious. Such claims do not make any sense. Our knowledge of anatomy and physiology would have to be extensively rewritten if this were true.
        This suspicion was further reinforced by the unmistakable futility of his ministrations and the blatant money-making tactics that emerged when he thought I had become a loyal customer.
        I am not one to form a frivolous opinion when it comes to clinical importance. A physician cannot allow himself to draw professional conclusions from emotion or conjecture only.
        I read up on the matter. I read studies and reviews and I engage in online discussions. I discuss the matter with colleagues and I inquire in the ER about their experience with back-patients previously attended to by chiropractors.
        The resulting opinion is expressed in my comments here.
        It has nothing to do with the persons involved. I am not so simple as to think they are willfully and consciously defrauding their customers.
        If chiropractors take my critique of their discipline and livelihood personally it is an unfortunate but unsurprising reaction.
         
        It is short of ridiculous to think that I or other doctors would not be thrilled and eager to learn that there is a genuine way of treating difficult back problems. We also get such problems and we have relatives with them.
        I have tried chiropractic myself and I have previously sent a number of patients, mostly relatives, to chiropractors. The results only confirmed my suspicions. When I discovered that it not only has a clinically insignificant, almost undetectable effect but can be seriously perilous in the case of vertebral artery injury, I became an outspoken critic of it.
         
        Call me outspoken and harsh but in my comments above I certainly did not make fallacious ‘ad hominem’ remarks. I put forth known, documented facts about the origins, nature and development of the discipline known as chiropractic. My outspoken and admittedly somewhat caustic description is ‘ad disciplinam’ not ‘ad hominem’ ( ‘at the discipline’, not ‘at the man’).
         
        I do make an effort to substantiate my arguments and I welcome an honest debate. If someone proves me wrong in any detail, by fact, figures and reason, I gladly change my views and opinion and I will officially thank and praise those who enlighten us and thereby contribute to a better world. I would, as anyone else, welcome an effective therapy for back and neck problems, especially the more difficult ones. I have near and dear who certainly need it.

        As I stand today, I do not see that the world would miss chiropractic should it magically disappear. It is hopeful though that there are chiropractors who do not subscribe to the original, fabricated subluxation-nonsense and propose that they can offer a therapy modality that purportedly works and could make chiropractic a clinically viable practice.
        This is absolutely fine. Let them then get their act together and demonstrate and prove in a credible and sound way (i.e. by data and scientific analysis) that they have a modality that offers real, clinically relevant effects and gives the patients more value for the money than the short-lived, mesmerising effects of a theatrical placebo.
        I am all for it because there is a great need for such an addition to health-care.
         
        I did invite the incognito chiropractic-supporter in question to counter my critical comments with data and facts. Instead he chooses to eject a stream of immature denigrations, which only serve to belittle himself and his colleagues and demonstrate graphically his misery of being stranded in a quagmire of cognitive dissonance between reason and vocation.

  • Regarding my last post: it doesn’t settle well when people make slanderous, sweeping and unfounded assertions right?
    I have no way of knowing whether Bjorg hurt animals when he was a kid; but now you know how unsettling it is to have false accusations thrown against you.

    Ed, I understand why you deleted the second post, but the first of the two posts I put up should not have been deleted.

    And I understand you deleted the chiropractic reviews because you have no way to rebut the tens of thousands of positive chiropractic reviews that exist on the internet.

    So I am going to post the link.
    There are thousands more like that. Chiropractic survived the war AMA waged against it in from 1960 to 1985, for many reasons. We have survived for one reason is that we live in a free market economy, and supply and demand has afforded a awesome position for chiropractors who are ethical, follow principle, learn how to help people with their hands. We do not compete with MD’s, and I work with MD’s, one comes in my office and there are no issues between us. I happen to believe I practice a more outcome based methodology, as I have seen many surgeries with poor outcomes. But that’s okay with you guys right?

    So much double standard with you Edzard. I always applaud a desire to be analytic. But you guys have that black empty space in your intellect when it comes to health and healing. — no way around that fact.

    Let me guess, are going to delete my posts because you do not like them. Must be nice to run biased website forum and
    “play God” like that Edz.

  • How would you rebut these, and thousands of reviews like them? you cannot escape the information age and what people say on social media.

    http://www.yelp.com/biz/adio-chiropractic-los-angeles

    Anecdotal? yes, but a mountain of testimony = conviction.

    • @Nicholas
      I had forgot about this humle request of yours until someone made a belated and half-assed attempt to punch me elsewhere in this thread.
      Here’s an easy to comprehend take-down of online reviews in general. Note how they emphasise Yelp. Turns out anyone can easily fake those five-stars if you need a little ‘practice building’. PB is what chiropractors regularly go to courses to learn don’t they? Well, perhaps not low and dirty tricks like having your friends and family write up cheering reviews on Yelp about the wonderful and caring neighborhood chiro. You don’t need to but you can even hire professional services to do it for you ‘en masse’.
      Regrettably, “thousands” of praising reviews on Yelp or other similar sites is not admissible evidence, even if it has the appearance of a ‘mountain of testimony’ as you call it in another post below. Rather the opposite I guess.
      The problem is that pissed patients seldom bother to write their experiences like the one star post shining bright and clear in your favourite four and five star rated chiro’s collection of praise and glory that generally has the appearance of a collection of scripts that might have been written by an agency specialising in such texts.
      But the real and decapitating problem with your argument is that even if there are “thousands” of positive reviews to be found, no one knows the number of dissatisfied, disillusioned and unsuccessful customers to divide the “thousands” with.

  • “I have tried chiropractic myself and I have previously sent a number of patients, mostly relatives, to chiropractors. The results only confirmed my suspicions. When I discovered that it not only has a clinically insignificant, almost undetectable effect but can be seriously perilous in the case of vertebral artery injury, I became an outspoken critic of it.”

    Anecdotal information like that is not valuable beyond your personal bias experience. You discard testimony of the thousands of people who report specific benefit as anecdotal, but then expect people to take of value your anecdotal experience? you do not get to have it both ways my friend.

    Where there is smoke there is fire though. tens of thousands of people have reported specific incidental benefit, varied from the astounding to the trivial. A mountain of testimony equals a conviction. Maybe you BJorg went to a crappy DC, or, your physiology was not going to respond the way you would want. Too many variable regarding your personal experience to extrapolate from that some sweeping statements.

    The eminent Dr. Edzard is also far too biased in this field to be taken seriously. He has written books for profit and makes money from a niche market of “anti-alternative ” medicine. He has become, you both have become, intoxicated on your own cool aid. It’s actually very silly because this man is not greater than all of that he charges against, the enormous traditions he attacks.

    Too many thousands of people have reported benefit to discount the positive affects. Chiropractic has most vibrantly withstood the test of a free market economy.

    Should I keep posting internet reviews? You cannot ignore the mountain of testimony.

    • not that it is any of your business, but to put the record straight: I have published 48 books to date and never made what you call ‘a profit’. in most cases any revenue went to my department or to charity. even if I had made a little money, this could hardly be called ‘a profit’ considering that one has to work up to 5 years on a book.

      • Oh, pardon me, the distinguished gentleman is a philanthropist. Now I bow down to your eminence and greatness.
        And those books you have on Amazon, the money goes to charity… And your philanthropic ambition is to save the world from chiropractic. Awe, now I have got it….Thanks so much for clearing up this [bull] as they say in the UK.
        Your mission is a bit dodgy in status at the moment but carry on Sir, carry on.

        You got some work to do.

        Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #3,055,329 in Books (See Top 100 in Books)

    • That little diatribe just gets you a LOL!

  • “I have published 48 books to date and never made what you call ‘a profit’.

    okay you are getting warmer here I will admit that, still your charities will not be getting fat.

    Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #220,895 in Books (See Top 100 in Books)

    • Nicholas wrote: “You discard testimony of the thousands of people who report specific benefit as anecdotal, but then expect people to take of value your anecdotal experience? you do not get to have it both ways my friend.”

      @ Nicholas

      Did you actually read what Björn Geir wrote? In addition to having experienced chiropractic, he has assessed it scientifically. That is the correct way to determine its risks and benefits:

      QUOTE
      “I read up on the matter. I read studies and reviews…I have tried chiropractic myself and I have previously sent a number of patients, mostly relatives, to chiropractors. The results only confirmed my suspicions. When I discovered that it not only has a clinically insignificant, almost undetectable effect but can be seriously perilous in the case of vertebral artery injury, I became an outspoken critic of it…I put forth known, documented facts about the origins, nature and development of the discipline known as chiropractic.”

      • BW can you please provide the references to Dr Geir’s scientific assessment. I assume that they have been published in peer reviewed journals and it would be interesting to read these. Regards

        • Why ask me and not Björn Geir about the studies and reviews he read in order to make a scientific assessment of chiropractic? Please direct your question to him. I’m sure he’d be more than happy to answer it.

  • Hmmmmm. I can’t speak for all chiropractors, but what we do is highly effective. I do, however, practice a bit different than most chiropractors in that I also treat muscular, tendon, and ligament injuries utilizing soft tissue therapies in addition to the chiropractic adjustment. I focus on musculoskeletal injuries and pain, because most musculoskeletal injuries are not severe. First or second degree muscle, tendon, and ligament sprains and strains are well within our scope of practice. If I find that a patient is experience a disease that is out of my scope of practice or too severe, I will send them to an orthopedic medical doctor, a general practitioner, and in some cases even the emergency room.

    I wonder how old the author of this is? I went to chiropractic school and spent over 5600 hours learning everything about the human body. I’m going to take a guess that this old guy didn’t get the education he should have gotten while in chiropractic school. The schools have changed quite a lot, and the educational requirements are virtually the exact same as medical school. Where we don’t have as much study as medical students do is in pharmacology and other serious diseases. Why? Because we don’t treat those types of conditions.

    The only thing I can say is that my practice is thriving, and it is because I help repair injuries to their muscles, tendons, ligaments, and joints. Anything outside of that is beyond my scope of practice, and I’m fine with that. Perhaps that’s the problem. Some chiropractors unfortunately believe they can fix other more serious problems. I blame that on the schools to a large degree, because they teach a philosophy that perpetuates that belief. When I was in school I didn’t buy it. Why? Because I payed attention to everything I was being taught, and I related it with what made sense to me scientifically.

    Don’t let this authors broad brush, that seems tainted with anger and frustration, close your minds to a therapeutic method that is actually highly beneficial. Ask for all of the research you want. Request every peer reviewed article you desire. The reality is, I have Yelp reviews by my patients who site personal experiences with my methods. I have 53 reviews by my patients, and all of them are 5 stars with the exception of one. And that one is 4 stars.

    Try not to paint your broad brush, because the reality is there are chiropractors like me who genuinely desire to get people out of pain who have experienced musculoskeletal injuries. Moreover, I have…over and over again…had many of my patients come to seem me as a last resort, because their orthopedic surgeon botched their surgery, their general practitioner told them their pain was in their head and that nothing was wrong, or their physical therapist couldn’t get them pain free.

    What do you get when you go to a general practitioner medical doctor when it comes to a musculoskeletal problem? You get, “take this pain killer. Come back in three weeks, and if the pain isn’t gone I will give you a stronger dose.” What a freakin’ joke!!! That’s not being a doctor. You are not problem solving anything. You are selling a pill and getting paid for it by some pharma company. Stick with your runny noses, flu’s, and sexually transmitted diseases. Those require nothing more than taking a pill, and a good pharmaceutical rep knows more than you.

    The best medical doctors are in the emergency rooms. They know how to problem solve. They know how to address serious medical problems quickly and effectively, unlike many of their counterparts in private practice. I assert that many medical doctors are actually incompetent.

    The reality is, the medical profession basically has little need for any doctors outside of a hospital environment. Doctors who work in hospitals are far more effective at more serious problems. I question that competency of the rest. Furthermore, medical procedures and drugs are responsible for tens of thousands of deaths every single year, all from mistakes made by medical doctors. On the other hand, you might be able to count on one hand the number of chiropractors who have caused a death, let alone injured someone seriously.

    With that, it’s time to step down from your high horse. Especially you old-school doctors over 50 years old. Most of you are out dated, and your knowledge base is antiquated. The medical profession is in a state of flux right now, because alternative methods of healthcare is on the rise, and you are simply butt hurt because of that encroachment. The reality is, many of you old guys and gals are falling behind. The newer medical doctors have a much more thorough knowledge base and understand how chiropractic care and other alternative methods of care compliment what they do.

    Time for you old wrinkly folk to get out of the way and let your more progressive counterparts speak for you, because you sound stupid when you speak. And quit asking for scientific research so much. It’s not all about research, it’s about results. Yes, chiropractic needs more to satisfy some of the doubters, but there is also plenty of research out there. You’re just not reading it. I assert you are even ignoring it. You’re a joke to the medical profession when you can’t understand how a chiropractic adjustment helps the body. It means you don’t understand biomechanics well enough. You don’t understand the effects of the inflammatory process well enough…especially on spinal joints. DO YOUR HOMEWORK! Understand how the body works. I do, because I pay attention. Too many of you (not all), are really good at judging and attacking. You’re probably the ones that don’t problem solve very well either.

  • Jayson- you said “I wonder how old the author of this is? I went to chiropractic school and spent over 5600 hours learning everything about the human body”

    There is so much that frightens me about your comment, the first is the delusional statement above that you learned everything about the human body. Not one person knows everything about it. So you either need to educate the world with your wisdom or figure out there are a few fallacies that you have yet to discover about yourself.

    • Oops. I didn’t mean to imply I know “everything” about the human body, because that’s impossible. That sentence was a bit off-the-cough and meant to imply I know a lot. Rest assured I do not. However, I do study virtually ever day for the pleasure of it. From biomechanics, to neurology, physiology, nutrition, mental health, etc. All of these areas are important for overall health, but I stay within my knowledge base and area of expertise for the most part. That is why my practice is successful. I am passionate about health and helping people, and my patients know it and recognize it, and get better from it. You can doubt what I do as a chiropractor all you want. I assert that your knowledge base is insufficient at best.

      • I hope your cough gets better soon.

      • Jayson

        What does your passion and knowledge tell you about the best available, most independent, least biased, scientific evidence?

        • My passion and knowledge tells me that to a large degree, scientific “evidence” is flawed on many levels. Scientific evidence is a good starting place to help people form a strong basis of understanding. But, it is not sacrosanct and it does little more than strengthen a hypothesis or theory. It rarely reaches that status of fact.

          We’ve all heard about it and read about it before. A scientist “proves” something through research, then 10 or 20 years later, the current research of the time debunks that scientist’s findings, and in many causes completely reverses that scientists conclusions.

          Quantum mechanics is a prime example. We used to believe that an atom had elections rotating around it like planets (the classical atom) around a sun. Now, scientists are finding it to be more of a quantum atom with an electron cloud and that the electron can appear anywhere around the atom as a particle, then disappear into nothing, and reappear in another location around the atom.

          All peer reviewed science is, is a good place to help start the process of understanding how something works. it does not provide a definitive and final conclusion.

          Let me go further and say that current peer reviewed science is questionable at best, because of bias, inconsistency, and even deception. Take a read of some of these articles:

          1. The Corruption of Peer Review Is Harming Scientific Credibility
          http://www.wsj.com/articles/hank-campbell-the-corruption-of-peer-review-is-harming-scientific-credibility-1405290747
          2. Peer review: a flawed process at the heart of science and journals
          http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1420798/

          I could site many of these types of articles. Science is good. And it’s important we use it to understand the world we live within, but science is not fact. At this point, I assert that science does not fully understand how a chiropractic adjustment positively affects the body. I believe I understand how it positively affects the body from a biomechanical standpoint, and on some levels from a physiological and neurological standpoint.

          I’m helping people every day. No smoke and mirrors. No claims of curing a serious disease or tapping into some kind of innate spiritual energy to repair the body. What I do is “mechanical” in nature. Joints and muscles are akin to ropes and pulleys. it’s not complex if you think about it. The way I approach it and explain it to my patients makes a lot of sense, and that’s why they come back to me and continue to tell more people about the work I do.

          I will admit that my chiropractic forefathers have done a complete injustice to the profession by making outrageous claims. This unfortunately has a lot to do with an old-school incumbency who attempt to shape the minds of new chiropractors with philosophy and dogma. It’s time that changes, and I’m doing as much as I can on my end to communicate a new understanding.

          I happen to be writing an article right now on my understanding of how chiropractic “medicine” benefits the human body, and it’s based on science and my/our current understanding of biomechanics, the inflammatory process, and the nervous system. I will be finishing it soon and posting it.

          • I can’t wait!

          • Jayson said:

            My passion and knowledge tells me that to a large degree, scientific “evidence” is flawed on many levels.

            Yeah. That’s what many doctors thought until their biases, self-deceit and arrogance were understood and exposed. In fact, it was that arrogance that killed so many patients – and still does to a lesser extent.

            There’s a story about Archie Cochrane that might be of interest. It’s been told many times but highlighted here by Ben Goldacre, showing that ’eminence-based medicine’ can so easily kill.

            For an introduction to the (very) many biases we all have – and therefore that we have to take account of and allow for if we are to find out what actually happens, not just what we think happens, see this introductory article on biases. Once you start to understand them, you might start to realise why you are so wrong.

            Yes, trials can be flawed, but take aim at those specific flaws, help understand, counter and fix them – but most of all, be aware of your own.

          • “At this point, I assert that science does not fully understand how a chiropractic adjustment positively affects the body. I believe I understand how it positively affects the body from a biomechanical standpoint, and on some levels from a physiological and neurological standpoint.”

            I agree with you here. I feel the same way about global warming, and “climate scare.” I imagine I will attacked for thinking that of the verdict on global warming is out; and that my global warming friends see the patterns in every off beat weather pattern. With respect to health science we understand a lot, and there is much we do not understand. Science is like the beam of light in a tunnel, which continues to illuminate the tunnel. The “anti-chiropractic group” think they have all the answers, that chiropractic has no answers, and everyone needs to bow down to allopathic medicine. It’s a really absurd, actually unscientific perspective, because its one that aims to destroy knowledge, art, etc…

            I would not want to have the intellectual framework of an Edzard, or Bjorn.. I would never be able to intellectually look at myself in the mirror thinking I know more than an entire profession of people, and all the thousands of individuals therein. How intellectually honest is that?

          • not just a clinician, scientist and philosopher – but also a brilliant mind reader!!!

          • nicholas said:

            The “anti-chiropractic group” think they have all the answers, that chiropractic has no answers, and everyone needs to bow down to allopathic medicine. It’s a really absurd, actually unscientific perspective, because its one that aims to destroy knowledge, art, etc…

            LOL! Not even close.

  • Are these legit studies?

    In a Randomized controlled trial, 183 patients with neck pain were randomly allocated to manual therapy (spinal mobilization), physiotherapy (mainly exercise) or general practitioner care (counseling, education and drugs) in a 52-week study. The clinical outcomes measures showed that manual therapy resulted in faster recovery than physiotherapy and general practitioner care. Moreover, total costs of the manual therapy-treated patients were about one-third of the costs of physiotherapy or general practitioner care.
    — Korthals-de Bos et al (2003), British Medical Journal

    “Patients with chronic low-back pain treated by chiropractors showed greater improvement and satisfaction at one month than patients treated by family physicians. Satisfaction scores were higher for chiropractic patients. A higher proportion of chiropractic patients (56 percent vs. 13 percent) reported that their low-back pain was better or much better, whereas nearly one-third of medical patients reported their low-back pain was worse or much worse.”
    – Nyiendo et al (2000), Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics

    I know I was very skeptical of chiropractic. I had persistent pain in my foot for months, as the result of a football game. I thought I’d mention it to the chiropractor I was trying out. He fixed it! I don’t know about sulaxation vs cavatation (cavitation?). I thought the “clickers” were ridiculous nonsense. But he fixed my foot! I am sure there are degrees of expertise and integrity, and any time you get near “alternative treatments” you get neighborly with the really strange stuff, some of which has been mentioned.

    However, a little humility from the scientific community is in order. Although we have learned much, we still know very little of the total. Take any field–genetics, biology, etc–we are learning, learning, learning. Who knew about dyneins a few years ago! We thought everything just, you know, floated around the cell. And to find out walking chemical taxis take molecules from here to there…wow! And little did we know. We must be open to the possibility that some legitimate science may be practices long before the mechanisms that underly it are fully understood. Like tribal remedies that worked, little did they understand the biochemical factors involved. Granted, such courses of action have a greater risk. But, the vast amount of what we do NOT know must be kept constantly in mind, so those who thrive on “scientific information” do not become convinced that, if it has not made the pages of Nature of the Journal of Whatever, it is not real!

    Best regards, Merry 3rd Day of Christmas, everyone, and God bless you!

  • Firstly,
    Most of the content on here is purely negative and argumentative. The original thread was regarding “20 things most chiropractors WONT tell you”. Correct?
    Well while I am no doctor, and have a minimal background in Exercise Physiology I am here to share what my Chiropractor DID tell me and how much sense it makes to me and maybe some of you will agree, and some some you will not. Regardless, I care not.
    He told me that he would not CURE anything. He told me he would “treat” anything. He and I understand that WELLNESS (the overall thing we all SHOULD be trying to attain) is MY responsibility. Any objections to that?!
    Would anyone argue that whether you are an MD or DC you are NOT responsible for what someone eats, their risk factors, or whether or not they exercise regularly? I would not.
    I have tension in my neck and shoulders as well as scoliosis. This makes the powerlifting and weight training I do, challenging and I have to train intelligently. I am not in dire straits medically like so many and I understand that. I feel foe people who have legitimate issues.
    What I do know is that the CNS is the most complicated and important system in our bodies and it has overwhelming affect on our overall health. Making sure the brain and spine communicate correctly and effectively to the other critical areas of our bodies is crucial. I believe that a Chiropractor can help with our CNS health.
    All I am saying is, take charge of your own health. Don’t expect a pill or an adjustment to FIX you. Exercise, eat as clean as possible, and you won’t have to rely so much on “Health Care”. God willing you do not have a life event where you need to utilize the world leading crisis and emergency care that we are fortunate to have in the US.
    Other than that, if you do not work at being well, you only have yourself to blame.
    Period.
    Those of you who want to insult and berate me, go right ahead. It matters not.

  • A finger in the butthole and the cooch = better living? Sign me up.

  • I am awaiting the outcome of an investigation by the british chiro association regarding my mothers treatment. Before she went he had an mri which should several issues including retrolisthesis and old age changes….40 odd visits later some of them daily a few times a week – a bad move followed by ‘strange’ behaviour from the chiropractor and pain urged for further evalution so an XRay whch showed 5 vertabral compression fractures and this was confirmed by another MRI – we have the before and after evidence. The sad thing is this has broken my mother mentally and she was sectioned because she tried to take her own life. Now we need to find help for her as she lives in constant pain and blames herself for going so long. I am not sure what we will do with the findings but at the very least it might save others from ruining their lives. I just wanted to write it all down as its been a hell of a year – its not over yet as no-one has any advice of what can be done to help her get over the trauma.

    • @ spongo

      I’m sorry to hear abour your mother’s experience and hope that she is given as much help as possible to improve the quality of her life.

      When you say “I am awaiting the outcome of an investigation by the british chiro association regarding my mothers treatment”, do you mean the General Chiropractic Council? If not, it would be worth submitting a complaint to the General Chiropractic Council as it is the statutory regulator of chiropractors in the UK. See under the ‘Concerns’ tab here:
      http://www.gcc-uk.org/

      The British Chiropractic Association is a trade organisation with no real powers. It did, however, in recent times, admit that its members had caused patient rib fracture injuries. That information was recorded in section 5.72 of a draft document on revalidation which was commissioned by the General Chiropractic Council, the purpose of which was to provide an analysis of the risks and benefits of chiropractic with the aim of establishing if there was a business case for revalidation. Whether or not these injuries were written up as case reports in the medical literature remains unknown.

      • Sorry I meant the The British Chiropractic Association is investigating. Do you think I should also copy in the General Chiropractic Council as well?

        • @ spongo

          Absolutely. UK chiropractors are obliged by law to inform patients about this:

          E1 Managing complaints
          You must have a written complaints procedure in place in your practice, which is easily accessible to patients. You must deal promptly and fairly with any complaint or claim made by a patient. You must tell patients about their right to refer any unresolved complaint to the GCC and give them the GCC’s contact details.

          Ref: Section E, page 28 of the General Chiropractic Council’s Code of Practice and Standard of Proficiency:
          http://www.gcc-uk.org/UserFiles/Docs/COPSOP_2010_for_WEBSITE_30_June.pdf

          In my opinion, it is not the responsibility of the British Chiropractic Association to investigate such a serious complaint. As it appears that it has not advised you to contact the General Chiropractic Council, it makes me wonder if it is trying to hush it up. It would be worth asking both the British Chiropractic Association and the General Chiropractic Council where your mother’s serious adverse event will be recorded in order that medical researchers can access it.

  • I think the author sums it up well in points 6 and 9. Unless you have an obvious back pain then seek diagnosis elsewhere and three visits and through.
    I think the take home is that there are a number of health care professions available that requires that we be armed with enough information to be able to make an informed choice.
    For the most part I’ve all but fired my MD after realising that their brand of “health care” isn’t in the best interests of my long term well being. It took several years of constant disappointment to come to that conclusion and then several more to find an alternative but if you want an easy read of how the medical practitioner and pharmaceutical industry got to become the mainstay in the health industry and what other options are available than I highly recommend you read Dr Peter Glidden’s (ND) book “The MD emperor has no clothes”. It is a free download. btw I do not work for Peter Glidden nor will I receive any compensation for this endorsement. I just think if I had found this book at the beginning of my search I wouldn’t have taken me this long to get to where I am now. Good reading and healthy life 🙂

  • Wow, a lot of you MDs and DOs have no clue what your talking about. Our education is just a intense as MDs or DOs we actually study to human body more, we have more credit hours of AP and we catch what you miss. Most of you just throw a pill at an issue where as we chiros look for the cause. You MDs are a shameful bunch who speak about a subject you know NOTHING about. Most of you are about the $$ not you patients!! Also you all KILL 100s of thousands a year that’s why your insurance is so sky high. Glorified drug deals is all you are. And Very Greedy!!

  • I did not read the book, and while I’m sure there are problems with chiropractic education and practice, this feed has so many inaccuracies, I had to post a comment. First, chiropractic is a profession, not a treatment. DC’s provide a multitude of services under their scope of practice. One of the most common is spinal manipulation (SMT)or spinal adjustments. Anyone who refutes the data on spine care has not read a journal or a clinical guideline in two decades. Not only are there evidence-based clinical guidelines for the profession (including pediatrics) – please see http://www.clinicalcompass.org – the treatments performed by a DC – SMT, rehabilitative exercises, patient education – are supported by the MEDICAL evidence-based clinical guidelines (American Pain Society/American College of Physicians paper published in the Annals of Internal Medicine, 2007 by Chou et. al.). There are bad DC’s out there, and there are great DC’s out there. To dissuade the public in not seeing a DC because of some bad apples does a disservice to the public health.

  • I am happy to have found this website because I was on the verge of scheduling an appointment with a chiropractor, despite a past bad experience, and a friend who has been truly brainwashed by chiropractors and continues to decline. I imagine that there are legit chiropractors, but until that profession enacts higher standards of education and professionalism, and there is science-based proof that their treatments are effective, I’ll stick with well-trained medical doctors who base their decisions on current, well done research, not on pseudo science, and make my own decisions based on their science-proven advice. Perhaps in the past MDs were pill pushers. They aren’t anymore.

    • I’m curious Jim. What was the bad experience you had with a chiropractor?

      I am not surprised that your experience was a bad one. I am a chiropractor, and I have patients come to my office saying they had a bad experience with a chiropractor previously, but they were compelled to give it a second chance, because their General MD and their Orthopedist could not fix the problem (non surgically) and they were tired of being prescribed another prescribed pharmaceutical. As for your friend being brainwashed by chiropractors, that sounds a big melodramatic. However, I’m aware that there are chiropractors out there who exaggerate the benefits of chiropractic care. I do agree that standards of professionalism for many (not all) chiropractors needs to be addressed. On the other hand, the education is quite extensive, especially from a musculoskeletal standpoint.

      As for science-based proof that their treatments are effective, there is plenty out there. I’m going to assume you haven’t looked or haven’t looked hard enough. There are thousands of peer reviewed research articles on Pub-Med. And of course more is needed.

      MD’s (not all) are still “pill pushers” as you put it. I frequently have new patients who have exhausted all treatment options, tell me their MD prescribed them an anti-inflammatory, a pain killer, or muscle relaxer for work related postural dysfunction all the time. Prescribing a pain killer for a mechanical problem (muscle overuse, repetitive motion, or skeletal structure dysfunction) is analogous to replacing cracked drywall in your living room when there is sinkhole beneath the foundation. You have to address the problem, and in many many cases, a cortisone injection does not fix the problem. Sure, it will temporarily make the pain go away, because it address the inflammation, but if the problem is scar tissue or a tear, the problem will always return.

      If you don’t feel compelled to go to a chiropractor for back or neck pain, that’s ok. Find a practitioner with whom you are comfortable. If you came to my office thinking I couldn’t help, because I’m a chiropractor and what do I know, I would refer you to a Physical Therapist, or perhaps a Corrective Exercise Instructor if your condition was related to structural dysfunction. I would not refer you to someone who would prescribe you an anti-inflammatory injection or pill.

      As a chiropractor who specializes in musculoskeletal conditions of the spine and extremities, I am appalled by some of the claims I read online by other chiropractors. it’s a significant enough percentage to turn people off, and I get why people are so apprehensive. But there are chiropractors like me who successfully address many musculoskeletal conditions successfully, professionally, and ethically. Just know that we/they are out there and that our desire is to help people, and that there is science and peer reviewed research out there that validates and confirms many of the benefits of mobilizing (adjusting) the spine, and address mechanical soft tissue dysfunction.

      I will place the reviews my clients give me on Yelp against any other doctor in any other field of practice when it comes to conservative musculoskeletal therapy for the spine and extremities. I don’t perform shamanism. I don’t attempt to provide some kind of smoke and mirrors approach. My treatments and therapies are successful and I have thousands of people who have benefited from my care. And my foundation is science. Evidence based science.

      For your perusal, feel free to read some of my Yelp reviews. Incidentally, my clients are sales reps, software programmers, nurses, dentists, and even medical doctors.

      Yelp link: http://www.yelp.com/biz/high-amplitude-health-chiropractic-and-sports-injury-san-mateo

      Cheers

      • I really don’t care about any of this. I have opinions on both sides. I’m okay with some wacko healer stuff, but I typically like my healing to be done by medical professionals. The reason I’m commenting is that I find it wildly entertaining that some of the people with the strongest opinions are those trained in chiropractics and seem to be the least capable of putting together a coherent thought on the subject. Punctuation and grammar matter when arguing for one’s side. (Jay did well, though.)

  • I recall sitting in on a session with my ex-wife with her chiropractor. He had a little gizmo that can be found on the internet for about $10. It is a tube with a spring loaded plunger with a blunt tip. He would hold it on specific spots…plunge it on those spots…and charge her $150 per visit. What a farce!

    My experience was once having my neck adjusted causing me severe pain that was so much worse than the pain I came to alleviate. I never went back.

    I have no respect for chiropractic services and think most who practice them to be modern snake oil salesman.

  • I was in an auto accident a few days ago and I have a lot of back pain. My wife told me to look into getting a chiropractic for the pain. I have to agree with your number 10 point. I was in the clinic for a little over a month and I had 15 different X-rays done. From what I could tell nothing changed from one to the next. http://www.newmanchiropracticcenter.com/shadyside-pittsburgh-pa-chiropractic-services.htm

  • Most interesting debate. What is interesting to me is that people are all debating opinions. There are a few facts mentioned in some statements which give the impression of that people would know what they are talking about.
    By people saying that MD’s are or are not “pill pusher’s”, or someone stating that one can get a gizmo for “about $10” that was used in a doctor’s office, no one is establishing facts.
    Anyone can post an opinion, give credit or slander a profession. Few people actually come to do a thorough evaluation of the issue at hand, the reliability of the professionals that we entrust our health to.
    As for the professions represented by professionals, there will always be representatives that are of questionable character, or moral principles, as there will be those of the highest order. As far as the education received by medical or chiropractic professionals, let me just point out that Ivy League educated lawyers, psychologists, economists and many others find themselves struggling to secure licensure by regulatory boards because of lack of knowledge from being bad students, so it is a fact that an educational institution is a resource for learning that like many things in life can be used wisely, or not.
    Chiropractors can be found around the globe, helping millions of people with or without the peer reviewed journals printing the reason why their migraine headaches of many years ceased to exist after an adjustment, or why is it that their suffering of sciatic neuralgia ends after an adjustment, or why an asthma sufferer no longer needs corticosteroid inhalers shortly after visiting a chiropractor, or why menstrual cramps end after a series of adjustments. Because of all these wonderful results that can’t be argued with because they are factual, by the millions, it is good that there are plenty of scientific publications that have found answers to why all these happens, to understand them one needs to be a well trained neurologist if not a well educated chiropractor.
    Standards of education of Doctors of Chiropractic are impressive if you care to look. Go to a web site of a Chiropractic program and see if you would fulfill the requirements for admission, mind the high grades that you would need to have to be a successful applicant. Compare the curriculum required for graduation as a Doctor of Chiropractic to that of a Doctor of Medicine, you will be before the realization that Doctors of Chiropractic are better educated in many disciplines as compared to Doctors of Medicine who would need to do two or three programs of specialization to match the educational credentials.
    There are good and bad Doctors of Medicine and Chiropractic, there are people going to Universities to gain credentials to make money and survive in our world the best way possible providing for their families. Have you forgotten how you struggled to decide what to do with your life? How would you make a living?
    Yes, I can totally make fun of a physician that for $90 dollars fee used a 90 cent syringe to administer a shot of cortisone in an avid runner’s knee to “handle” his self-induced chronic degenerative osteoarthritis, but I better address the fact that getting the swelling and pain down for a day without addressing adequate footwear, proper running biodynamics and body biomechanics, and sitting down with the patient to discuss her understanding of the damage of the tissues, her current age, and her willingness to continue to push beyond pain to reach her goals might lead her to need a Titanium prosthesis before she reaches 40 years of age.
    Doctors of Medicine are these recipients of millions of dollars of “support” that the pharmaceutical industry reports in their balance sheets as marketing or distribution costs. The numbers are there, hidden unless one knows where to look. It is a business, the end user – the patient with illness, is the source of income.
    Doctors of Chiropractic using their hands to adjust competently, are never going to be “judged” for using an instrument that would actually cost $225 to $1555 named an ‘activator’ that looks to an ignorant person like “something you get off internet for $10”. Continuing education credit hours are required of most healthcare professionals by their Boards to upkeep a license, yet, to learn to use the ‘activator’ a Chiropractor takes extensive training far beyond the CE requirements, just like the plastic surgeon that offers procedures of higher value to his patients.
    I for one have done the research, I can speak in facts. I am a well trained scientist, my areas of competence are neurology, molecular biology, cellular biology, glycobiology, nutrition, immunology and biodynamics.
    I choose to have chiropractic care for my family, when I move to a new city I don’t go to anyone that hangs a sign offering care, I interview with them to make a best possible choice. I know that having my nervous system free of interference to run my body properly is the best possible way of having good health provided I eat what my body needs, I exercise and I rest adequately. Being well adjusted is important to me, the best man for the job is a good Doctor of Chiropractic. So, myself and all my friends that are Doctors of Medicine, we go with our families to get adjusted about once a month.

    • Well, well Bob. You certainly have no doubts about your own splendor. A man of such endeavours has no reason to hide his identity. Men of your caliber usually do not need to hide.
       
      Your skills at healing and curing are truly awesome.
       

      …migraine headaches of many years ceased to exist after an adjustment, or why is it that their suffering of sciatic neuralgia ends after an adjustment, or why an asthma sufferer no longer needs corticosteroid inhalers shortly after visiting a chiropractor, or why menstrual cramps end after a series of adjustments.

       
      Do chiropractors have some kind of special statistical methods to be able to calculate the magnificent efficacy of their ministrations?
      You say you have research to back up your claims of chiropractic efficacy. Please share your fantastic results!
      You only need to provide the PubMed details of your papers so we can find them.
       
      Until now we have been of the distinct and substantial impression that improvement from spinal adjustments of non-spinal ailments such as asthma, menstrual cramps and headaches were due to natural fluctuations in symptoms and the chiropractors were generally fooled by their confirmation bias into thinking that the few patients who return to thank them were representative of a generalised effect of their ministration.
      It will be exciting to have you prove us all wrong.
      You will off course be in for a lot of money and fame for being able to provide a definite cure for all these relapsing problems. I am surprised that after all those decades, bronchodilating and steroid inhalers for asthma are still being produced? One would have thought chiropractic adjustments had taken over completely?

  • An interesting response to an interesting debate.

    What is interesting to me is that people are all debating opinions. There are a few facts mentioned in some statements which give the impression of that people would know what they are talking about.

    Opinions are to be expected in blog comments. Unsupported facts are, indeed, not particularly helpful, but many of the commenters here link to the sources of their information. So perhaps you’d be kind enough to give us the sources of your facts.

    Because of all these wonderful results that can’t be argued with because they are factual, by the millions, it is good that there are plenty of scientific publications that have found answers to why all these happens (sic), to understand them one needs to be a well trained neurologist if not a well educated chiropractor.

    Any chance of a link to robust evidence that “all these wonderful results can’t be argued with because they are factual”? Or is this “fact” just your opinion? You say that plenty of scientific publications have found answers. Is this an opinion or a fact. Can you link to good quality, scientific publications that provide real evidence that answer why all this happens? Understanding all this requires one to be a well trained neurologist or well-educated chiropractor, eh? Is that a fact or an opinion? If the former, please cite the evidence; if the latter, you’re suggesting that all who post on this site are ignoramuses, or at least inferior to your own intellect. I believe that’s usually called an argument from authority.

    Doctors of Chiropractic using their hands to adjust competently, are never going to be “judged” for using an instrument that would actually cost $225 to $1555 named an ‘activator’ that looks to an ignorant person like “something you get off internet for $10”.

    Oh dear. How trying it must be to read such a comment from an ignorant person! I looked up the chiropractic activator. It’s a spring-loaded plunger with a couple of finger grips. The models indeed sell for hundreds of dollars, but they look like something that can’t possibly cost more than $20 to manufacture. (That’s my opinion, so clearly I’m an ignorant person too.) If you want to see one in action try https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pSSNsa59x8. Note that the presenters can’t even spell “instrument” correctly in the opening credits. (Correct spelling is a matter of considerable importance to chiropractors, as we learned elsewhere on this site.)

    I for one have done the research, I can speak in facts.

    Do you comprehend the difference between robust evidence and speaking in what you call facts? For many of us your style of reasoning is known as arm waving. It’s evidence we’d like to see, rather than your opinion of what is factual and what is not.

    I am a well trained scientist, my areas of competence are neurology, molecular biology, cellular biology, glycobiology, nutrition, immunology and biodynamics.

    Well, good for you! Have you really never heard of the fallacy of “argument from authority”? Have you not noticed that many commenters on these blogs are at least as well qualified as you? (I am myself, but I don’t flaunt it.)

    I know that having my nervous system free of interference to run my body properly is the best possible way of having good health

    Now I’m confused. Is this another fact or just an opinion? Can you illuminate us what amounts to “interference” to your nervous system? Subluxations? How do you detect and measure this interference? How often does it occur? With millions of neurones running miles all over the body are we ever “free of interference” to our nervous systems? Or is it only the interferences that require pummelling the spine with a spring-loaded plunger?
    Thank you for adding your opinions to the debate.

  • I’m calling “bull” on this.

    This seems like the rant of a failed chiropractor. None of this, however, is actually true. Do you think that chiropractors would be allowed to practice if these things weren’t enormous stretches of the truth? People will buy things they read in books without questioning the validity. Would Insurance reimburse for chiropractic if these things were true?

  • A gymnast at an Olympic level would ask you to do 30 seconds of her 90 second routine before she would engage in conversation with you about how easy it is to do her art, and that any person with arms and legs can do it. Certainly she would make her performance seem effortless, fluid and amazing.
    Arguing with the ignorance of someone calling a precision instrument a $20 plungger, I would be the greater fool for honoring your bait. Help yourself to the vastness of resources available to educate yourself and stop your arm waving of “pay attention to me, I’ll make plenty of noise to look like I matter” yes, you matter, do your homework…

    I have spoken with people from around the world who have experienced the benefits of good Chiropractic care. This is a fact, they have benefited from the care received, they know so. They have voted Chiropractic care with their hard earned money. Insurance companies vote Chiropractic care in with their support because their bottom line benefits from their members receiving Chiropractic care. Not my opinion, their balance sheets reflect this as fact.

    But you might be the kind of person that says that there is no sun because it’s overcast where you stand and believe that the sun has actually travelled away from the plante. Newscast for you, the clouds keep you from seeing the sun, but the sun is still acting upon our planet like when you feel it. Don’t feel alone, millions of people at one time thought the Earth was flat and that the sun travelled in space to disapear in the horizon.

    When I get to my office, I’ll dig out some examples of good articles that have been designed to find answers about what makes it possible for people to benefit from Chiropractic care.

    • Many thanks for this splendid example of argumentum ad populum. Why do you stop with “the people from around the world who have experienced the benefits of Chiropractic care”? (Why the capital ‘C’, by the way?). That’s unfair to the huge numbers of people who’ve experienced the benefits of good homeopathy, Chinese traditional medicine, aromatherapy, chelation therapy, colonic irrigation, magnet therapy, reflexology and therapeutic touch.

      But what’s this you say? Millions of people thought the earth was flat? Well, that proves it then, doesn’t it? You can’t argue with that much solid testimony!

      While I’m not at all the kind of person who thinks there’s no sun when it’s overcast, if I speak with people from all over the world who do think that way, with strong conviction, then it must be the correct explanation, right?

      When you get to your office, please dig out some examples of good articles that convincingly demonstrate chiropractic manipulations produce a reproducibly measurable benefit in a definable disorder. We already know what makes it possible for people to benefit from all forms of alternative medicine; ditto religious and other superstitions: we are human beings with an innate tendency to fool ourselves when others show us care and empathy, even more so when stronger personalities speak convincingly.

      PS. Your continued obsession with the price of the chiropractic plunger gismo worries me. I hope you haven’t paid a huge sum for one and have ended up feeling a bit cheated. What I actually said in my previous post was that I guess it would cost about $20 to manufacture. Most of us ignorant people know full well that manufacturing costs are usually only a fraction of retail prices.

      • Bob said:

        a precision instrument a $20 plungger

        How precise is it?

        FrankO said:

        I guess it would cost about $20 to manufacture

        I think you over-estimate the costs of making a clicky stick. I’d say $10 tops.

  • Oops, forgive me, a typo slipped away, it is ‘planet’ in my sentence “has actually travelled away from the plante”. Sorry.

  • There is a famous quote from Donald Rumsfield ( I am not his fan) it goes like this: “There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don’t know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don’t know we don’t know.
    Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/d/donald_rumsfeld.html#4TKmZl1QUILOXFmv.99

    When it comes to human knowledge and understanding we all has a sphere of knowledge, sort of like a bubble, from which you cannot see outside – or, like being in a swimming pool with a face mask, you can see in the pool okay, but you cannot see outside of that pool. There is just so much knowledge and understanding inherent in chiropractic, however it represents a different pool of knowledge that someone like Bjorn and others here cannot, and will not see or understand. The difference is, Bjorn and others are playing God by saying they know, what they actually do not know.
    Also, I am pretty sure economy conscious US military would not have a chiropractor at every installation, and every veterans facility, as well as on most all major sport teams, if it didn’t work.

  • Nicholas, this is the groan-inducing point of view that “There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.” (Hamlet: Shakespeare. Please note Shakepeare’s pejorative use of ‘dreamt’.)
    .
    If there is a radically different pool of knowledge underlying chiropractic, please enlighten us about such knowledge, and what other aspects of our existence depend on it. When “other knowledges” require us to abandon the body of knowledge that has built over millenia, they should surely be able to demonstrate their effects as clearly and consistently as that knowledge, and provide credible evidence they exist.
    .
    Can you step out of a tenth-floor window and not plunge to your death with this other knowledge? Can you move from A to B in zero time? No; we’re not talking about anything so profound. The question is very simple: whether sticking needles in peoples’ bodies cures illness. To know whether this is a real or imagined effect the illness has to be defined — vague stuff about “feeling low” is more difficult to define than more acute diseases, but it can be done within the existing body of knowledge.
    .
    The notion of “holism”, often cited as a version of your “other knowledge” is really saying no more than that the human body contains sufficient complexity that positive and negative outcomes of illness and malaise may result from factors that never made it on to the radar of whoever is attempting a cure. (That’s a Rumsfeld “known unknown”, for sure.) Because of the complexity, we must devise experiments aimed to demonstrate the eficacy or otherwise of a single factor applied to a disorder, otherwise we can explain outcomes on anything we choose, including the time of day or the position of starts. (Oh, sorry, some people already do that.)
    .
    The final sentence of your comment is disappointing. You are seriously exceptional in regarding the US military as the final arbiter of what does and doesn’t work in this world!

    • Edzard, please can you implement a ‘preview post’ facility?! Para. 4: ‘efficacy’ misspelt and sentence should read ‘position of stars, not starts’.

  • FrankO
    What I was saying before about “being in a pool,” since your point-of view is so literal and without ability to metaphor in this discussion, I will try providing another, more direct example: just as there are visual points of view, which you might think of as being like a triangle with peripheral views becoming increasing obscure, there are fields of intellectual, spiritual, emotional, and other points of view. If you are strictly a mechanistic thinker then you inevitably miss some of the reality around you because not all things occur in the same field of view that you can directly see. For example, in the 15th century most thinkers of the time could not understand how the earth would be rotating since they did not experience the movement — they did not realize they were experiencing this from within an atmospheric bubble.
    Now to the second part, where you indicate that the US military wastes things all the time — however its hard to then extend that same concept to almost every major US sports team…you should start calling up all US football teams and argue with them that the are wasting resources on chiropractic –see how far you get…All as I can say is as the world progresses I am beginning to pity people whose intellect is being left behind….

    • Chiropractic care for older adults with low back pain reduces declines in activities of daily living (ADLs), instrumental ADLs, and improves self-rated health better than medical care

      Weigel PS, MS, Wolinsky FD, PhD.The Comparative Effect of Episodes of Chiropractic & Medical Treatment on the Health of Older Adults. JMPT 2014;xx:1-12. Epub ahead of print.

      Comments: This 2014 paper reviews a large data base of 1057 older adults treated with either chiropractic care or standard medical care for low back pain and then follows them for two additional years to compare outcomes. Chiropractic care was associated with reduced declines in ADLs, instrumental ADLS (using the phone, taking medication, handling money, shopping, preparing meals), and better self-rated health than medical care. Slowing the rate of functional decline, disability, & dependency among older adults reduces the threat of institutionalization & preserves autonomy & well-being. The study concludes that chiropractic use in episodes of care for uncomplicated back conditions has protective effects against declines in ADLs, instrumental ADLs, & self-rated health for older Medicare beneficiaries over a 2-year period.

      Study compares chiropractic to medical treatment (Tx) in episodes of care for uncomplicated back conditions & their affects on declines in function & well-being over 2 years among 1057 clinically homogenous older adults. Data is from the nationally representative “Survey on Assets & Health Dynamics among the Oldest Old ”which were linked to subjects’ Medicare claims.

      Functional health changes to evaluate disability indicators are measured by the number of limitations in: Activities of daily living (ADLs): :difficulties with getting across a room, getting dressed, bathing/ showering, eating, & getting in or out of bed.

      Instrumental ADLs (IADLs): :difficulties with using a telephone, taking medication, handling money, shopping, & preparing meals.

      Lower body function (LBFs).
      Changes in well-being which are closely associated with future functional decline, dependency, & mortality are measured by self-rated health & depressive symptoms.
      Slowing the rate of functional decline, disability, & dependency among older adults reduces the threat of institutionalization & preserves autonomy & well-being.
      Results:there is a significant protective effect of chiropractic against declines in activities of daily living, instrumental ADLs, & self-rated health compared to medical care for Tx an episode of LBP.
      Conclusion:The findings suggest that chiropractic use in episodes of care for uncomplicated back conditions has protective effects against declines in ADLs, instrumental ADLs, & self-rated health for older Medicare beneficiaries over a 2-year period.

      • Chiropractic adjustments improve smoothness of intervertebral motion, acceleration, & angular velocity of lumbar motion segments

        Lumbar motion changes in chronic low back pain patients.
        Mieritz RM, DC, PhD, Bronfort G, DC, PhD et al. Spine J 2014; 14:xxxepub ahead of print.

        Comments: This 2014 paper uses a high tech” piece of equipment (Spine Motion Analyzer) to quantify not only the overall range of motion (ROM), but the quality of motion based on angular velocity, acceleration, & smoothness of motion (aka jerk index) which is based on the number of changes in acceleration throughout a particular ROM. The results document that chiropractic adjustments improved all measurements of improved quality of motion, but several exercise programs which were also evaluated improved only half of the measurements. Importantly, this study is the first to document that chiropractic adjustments improved smoothness of motion but the exercises did not. The paper notes that simply measuring end range of motion and not quality of motion is not sensitive enough to detect important clinical improvements of motion that occur with chiropractic adjustments.

        Methods: :This study assesses changes in lumbar regional motion in 199 LBP Pts (>6 wks to 12 wks) with (w) or w/o leg pain &/or neurological signs (18-65 yrs) over 12 wks of care. Lumbar spine kinematics were determined using a high tech instrumented spatial linkage system (CA 6000 Spine Motion Analyzer; OSI, Union City, CA, USA) to measure angular velocity, acceleration & smoothness of motion at 2 pre-Tx visits & 1 F-U visit after 12 wks of treatment. ‘Low tech’ ROM measurements describe functional range but little about the quality of the motion. Simple ROM has limited use as a measure of Tx outcomes or as a stand-alone measure of disability. Addressing the patterns & quality of the motion rather than just the end ROM may be more responsive measures. ‘High tech’ 3D spinal motion analysis may aid in describing Pt movement & changes w various Tx& remedy deficiencies in the quantification of LBP impairment.
        The lumbar region spinal motion data were analyzed relative to 3 treatment modalities:
        1. High-dose, supervised exercise (20 supervised sessions of high reps of core exercises)
        2. Low-tech trunk exercise (2 supervised sessions w PT training & advice & then exercise on their own)
        3.Spinal Manipulation (SM) (2 visits/wk for 12 wks of HVLA side-posture).
        Results:Lumbar region motion parameters were altered over 12 wks in all groups, but only the SM grp changed significantly in all outcomes, and the exercise groups in half of the motion parameters analyzed. SM grp changed to a smoother motion pattern of motion but the exercise groups did not. The hypothesis that LBP Pts would move more smoothly after SM was confirmed.

        Conclusion: This study provides evidence that spinal motion changes can occur in CLBP Pts over a 12-week period and that these changes are associated with the type of Tx.

        • Chiropractic care demonstrated better results than the natural history for both acute & chronic lumbar disc herniations.

          Outcomes of Acute & Chronic Pts w MRI-confirmed Symptomatic Lumbar Disc Herniations (LDH) receiving HVLA SM.
          Leemann S, DC, Peterson CK, RN, DC, ME Humphreys BK, DC, PhD, et al. JMPT 2014 epub ahead of print.

          Comments: This 2014 study documents that chiropractic adjustments accelerate the recovery time for both acute and chronic lumbar disc herniations when compared to the natural history of recovery. Until very recently the database on effectiveness of adjustments for disc herniation has been poor, but this study, which follows on the heels of several other recent papers, demonstrates the effectiveness of chiropractic adjustments in promoting recovery based on disability scores, numerical pain rating scores, and patient global impression of change. This outcomes are considered today, to be the standards to evaluate patient-centered outcomes.

          Prospective study evaluates 148 (18-65 yrs) LBP Pts w leg pain & MRI-confirmed LDH Tx w chiro HVLA SM in terms of outcomes of self-reported Pt global impression of change (PGIC), numerical pain rating scale (NPRS) &Oswestry at 2 wks, 1, 3, 6 & 12 months.
          Methods: :Specific lumbar SM was dependent on if LDH was intraforaminal or paramedian on MRI. Outcomes: Pt global Impression of Change (PGIC), Numerical pain rating scale (NPRS) for LBP & leg pain &Oswestry at baseline, 2 wks, 1, 3, 6 & 12 mos.

          Results: There were significant improvements for all outcomes at all follow-up times. At 3 mo, 90.5% of Pts were “improved” w 88.0%“improved” at 1 yr. Although acute Pts improved faster by 3 mos, 81.8% of chronic Pts reported “improv’t” at 3 mo& 89.2% “improved” at 1 yr. There were no adverse events.
          Conclusions: A large percent of acute & importantly chronic LDH Pts treated (Tx) w chiro HVLA SM reported clinically relevant improvement.

          Discussion:Previous studies identified LBP + leg pain as a negative prognostic factor for improv’t w chiropractic, but a recent, large study found radiculopathy wasn’t a negative predictor. The % of Pts reporting clinical improvement in this study is surprisingly good, with ~ 70% of Pts improved as early as 2 wks of care. By 3 mos, up to 90.5% improved & then stabilized at 6 mo& 1 yr. It may be argued that most of the effect is explained by natural history & this might contribute significantly to outcomes in ALBP Pts, but, for chronic Pts any positive effect due to natural Hx should already have occurred. The natural Hx of sciatica in acute LDH is favorable, with 36% reporting major improv’t in 2 wks& up to 73% having resolution of leg pain by 12 wks. Acute Pts in this study had more substantial improv’t& improved more quickly than chronic Pts, with >80% reporting clinical improv’t as early as 2 wks& 94.5% improved at 3 mo. These results are better than the natural Hx statistics. Even chronic Pts w t mean duration Sx>450 days, reported significant improv’t, although this takes slightly longer.>81% reported being “improved” at 3 mos, & t 89.2% reporting improv’t at 1 yr was slightly higher than the percent of acute Pts.

          • Improved diffusion of water in lumbar intervertebral discs after spinal manipulation reduce pain.

            Study to determine if there are differences in diffusion of water within the lumbar intervertebral discs (IVDs) between LBP Pts who reported reduction in pain intensity after a single spinal manipulation (SM) visit & those who did not.
            Beattie PF, PT, PhD, et al. J Orthop Sports PhysTher 2014;44(1):19-29.

            Comments: This 2014 study is the first to document that spinal manipulation can result in improved intradiscal diffusion and that this is associated with reduced pain in symptomatic LBP patients. The authors propose that the pain reduction may be due to enhanced gas and nutrient transport, improved removal of metabolic waste products associated with pain, and the positive effect of improved pressure gradients acting on the disc. Improved intradiscal diffusion has not be studied before because until now there was no way to visualize such changes. However, now the “diffusion-weighted MRI” allows diffusion of water within the IVD to be quantified.

            Postintervention increases in the diffusion of water w/i intervertebral discs (IVDs) may be a mechanisms linked to pain reduction by these means: Increased diffusion of water within the lumbar IVD
            1) May enhance gas & nutrient transport,
            2) Aid in removal of metabolic waste products associated with pain,
            3) Have a positive effect on internal &/or external pressure gradients acting on the disc.

            Increased diffusion w/i IVDs in Pts who receive SM for LBP may be associated w a reduction in pain & provide information regarding a mechanism by which SM affects symptoms. A new application of lumbar MRI – diffusion-weighted MRI allows diffusion of water w/i the IVD to be quantified & provides an estimate of the rate at which water moves w/i the IVDs. This is represented by the apparent diffusion coefficient (ADC).

            Methods: 19 LBP Pts (20-45 yrs) given numerical pain rating scales (NPRS) before & after side-posture SM. Pts underwent T2- & diffusion-weighted lumbar MRI immediately before & after receiving a single SM. Pts who reported a decrease in pain intensity of >2 of 11 (0-10) were classified as “within-session responders,” & the others classified as “not–within-session responders.” The apparent diffusion coefficient (ADC), representing the diffusion of water in the nucleus pulposus, was calculated.
            Results: Pts who responded (n = 12) had a post-SM increase in ADC at L1-2 (P = .001), L2-3 (P = .002), & L5-S1 (P = .01) vs those who did not respond (n = 7). There were large effect sizes in ADC between responder groups were observed at L1-2, L2-3, & L5- S1.
            Conclusion: Changes in diffusion of water w/i the IVDs at L1-2, L2-3, & L5-S1 appear to be related to differences in within-session pain reports following a single SM.

  • I tried a chiropractor last week and it was a strange place. They get me in by advertising a deal for a consultation and x-rays with diagnosis.

    Well, I get there and they have me start filling out a ton of paperwork. Basically to get the deal you have to sign up for another apt where your spouse has to come in with you where they explain the x-rays (weird). So now it’s 2 appts. This 1st apt is not even an adjustment, it’s just the xrays and paperwork. Also in the paperwork is you agreeing to sign on for 3 adjustments ($55apiece without insurance). Now if you don’t fulfill making these 4 other appts, they will come after you for almost $200 instead of just the $50 you pay for the first appt. So, it’s sort of a scam where you are going to spend some money with them whether you have them adjust you or not. Of course you can deny the paperwork and walk out too. I filled it out and stayed, thought maybe they could actually help so took a chance. I should have split in hindsight.

    These people working there were strange to say the least. It became evident they were all religious nuts. The people behind the counter, the chiros and the rest of the oddball staff. I noticed that everything in the office was geared toward bible quotes and talking about how god created your body as a temple and you needed adjustments to fix your Karma and Chee. I was like WTF, where am I??

    I have a slipped disc and need relief today, not a spiritual leader to help guide me through life. I’m not a religious person and can’t stand those who push religion and their wacky beliefs on others.
    So I get my xrays from some weirdo with a long Jesus beard and a few other tests, I’m made to make another apt for me and my wife to come in and have the diagnosis read to us. We come in the next week and the receptionist is apparently the “radiologist” there and starts showing us my xrays and telling me I need their help badly. I was like is this for real? The chiropractor doesn’t go over this with me? She then starts selling me on all this mind and body garbage and spiritual nonsense which eventually leads to her explaining that I need 6 months to one year of work done. For a grand total of approx. $3500. At the end of my ‘treatment’ they will reasess if I need more. Unbelievable right?

    So while I was there I did make an apt for my 1st adjustment of the 3. I knew I wasn’t going to buy the package deal, not a chance in hell. But I figured I do the 3 appt’s to see if there were any change. Nope, no change, just a lighter wallet. These people, at least at this outfit, are rip-off artist and nut-jobs.

    • I’ve been to every doctor and specialist in my surrounding area for treatment for sciatica, piriformis syndrome ( bum knots like you wouldn’t believe), and all muscles and joints surrounding the pelvic and lower back region. My family doctor told me that it’s severe arthritis/inflammation which seem to me to be the same thing? Anyways, my doctor sent me to a bone/joint specialist. She gave me 2 options which were cortisone or hip surgery which would immobilize my joint substantially. I walked out and gave her a look like she must be crazy. Point being, I was left crippled by every doctor and specialist I could find because I didn’t want to take cortisone or have the hip surgery. I tried a chiropractor in my area who really only adjusted my pelvis and after couple months it did not help. I researched another chiropractor who had success with many of his patients so I decided to give him a try! It was night and day compared to my first chiropractor who appeared to be very professional as well. After only a couple weeks of neck and back adjustments I was healed, all my pelvic and bum muscles knots had subsided and the relief was priceless. My point is that every chiropractor is different, I was lucky enough to find a really good one after multiple attempts. If you’re family doctor and specialists can’t help you, but a chiropractor can help you. Why wouldn’t you try?

      Also I saw my doctor afterwards and told him everything and he told me to continue seeing my chiropractor unless I wanted cortisone or surgery. I also had sternum/chest and lung problems that I thought was asthma but my doctor said it was just inflammation and that by seeing my chiropractor should work. Which again, it did…. My doctor prescribed my chiropractor on more than one occasion, and it was the only thing that saved my life, I would probably be in a wheelchair with multiple surgeries and cortisone shots in agony if it wasn’t for my chiropractor. I just completed P90x a little while ago, that would have never been possible without finding a great chiropractor. Hope this helps someone.

      • Phil, thank you. Yes, I believe what you had to share is very helpful. Obviously many people here can support their claims with much data. But the laymen is the one to ask if chiropractic has helped. My daughter suffers from chronic migraines. They began when she was 8 and have gotten worse as she got older. We went to all medical doctors until she was 16. She has had a Cat Scan, 2 MRI’s, been to a neurologist, allergist, ophthalmologist, sleep doctor, different pediatric doctors. She has been prescribed various drugs which have all proven ineffective. She has been pumped with heavy duty intravenous drugs at the hospital. I remembered that when her father, who suffered from migraines, could crack his neck, he could get rid of the migraine. So after 8 years of non effective treatments and worsening symptoms, I spoke to her pediatric doctor about seeing a chiropractor. I set up an appointment for one that was recommended to me. The insurance company covered 26 appointments, but said I would need a script. I called the pediatric doctor who told me if I wanted to get chiropractic treatment for my daughter, it would come out of my own pocket. Her solution? Have my daughter checked for TMJ. I looked it up. Outside of a migraine, she had NOT ONE attribute of TMJ. I have no medical training and knew she was pulling up something, anything, other than a chiropractor. So I pay for the chiropractor out of pocket. Why? Because he has gotten better results for her than medical doctors and heavy duty medicine. He actually adjusted her and the headache went away instantaneously. My daughter had to have her wisdom teeth out and we ended up going to an oral surgeon. When I told him the pediatrician wanted her to see him for TMJ, he looked at me like “she should have known this isn’t TMJ”. He went on to describe the basic symptoms that would be present if it was TMJ, something the pediatrician should have known. If idiot me could look at it online and figure that out, exactly WHY was she telling me to go to an oral surgeon, which by the way needed her to go to the dentist first who would then have to agree to send her to the Oral Surgeon for the insurance to cover him. The dentist wouldn’t have sent her because it WASN’T TMJ. Result. Stay in pain. Not even willing to write a script so the insurance would cover it. Nothing coming out of her pocket. I no longer let my child see her. She was a quack MD. Yes, they come in ALL medical professions. My mother was molested by a gynecologist, and was so scarred by the experience she refused to visit another one after that.

        I have been to three different chiropractors, and not one of them was as the author described. None were money grabbing. All of them lessened visits when there was improvement. My present chiropractor had an affordable plan for patients who require more adjustments. He did $69 per month for as many adjustments as were needed. There are times my daughter requires more treatments in a week. And there are times we visit and he will not adjust her when there is no need. She was missing a lot of school a year before we began seeing the chiropractor. This year she has not missed much less. The difference? Chiropractic care. My chiropractor never suggests people stop seeing their MD’s. He has a more open set up and I have seen people come in pain and leave with pain gone or reduced. So I will either believe all these scientific sounding arguments against (most sound like defamatory speeches) chiropractic care, or go by the experience of those I know are getting relief, including my daughter.

        My personal experience was when I was 16 years old my back was hurt while riding on a bus when he stopped short and someone fell on me. I was bent at an angle for months and couldn’t stand up straight. I had lower back pain so bad I couldn’t lie flat in bed. My mother took me to specialists in New York city to a very expensive office. They examined my back and attributed my pain to what they said was a curvature in my lower spine which resulted in my rump sticking out farther. No therapy. No medicine. They conferred together, the two of them, and actually laughed about their prognosis. I was never able to run, walk or lie down without pain. Fast forward almost 20 years. I went to a chiropractor who took x-rays of my back. The next visit he said, “What did you do to your back?!” and showed me where the discs had been broken in two places. The injury I received when 16 had actually been those breaks. The bottom section of my spine is visibly off (the disks are almost resting on each other (the “jelly” in between the bone is almost gone in one spot and the disks are way off. This chiropractor was honest and told me there was nothing he could do. He said in order to realign the disks, a surgeon would have to move the whole spinal cord due to the way it healed and the risk of paralysis was great. The sharp pains I felt at times where when the disks would knock each other due to the soft cushion between the bones missing. All he could do was adjustments that relieved the pressure and the pain, which he did. At 57, I still cannot lie flat, on my stomach (much worse) or on my sides. All is painful. I sleep with an adjustable bed. Had the medical doctors who were back specialists saw what this chiropractic doctor saw, the might have been able to minimize the damage and pain I was feeling. So PLEASE, stop acting like medical doctors are the end all.

        I have a friend who was a critical care nurse for open heart patients. Her training was extensive. She had plenty of horror stories about regular doctor related screw ups, often things that never came out because she put her career at risk righting some of their wrongs because of the possible death that would have happened to the patients. There was enough of that going on that she felt she served the patients better by remaining a nurse (she had considered continuing her education to becoming one. She was smart enough, but opted not to become one).

        So to anyone seeking chiropractic care, I have yet to meet one of them who was a religious freak and pushed it on their patients, or used crystals, or other weird things. Most train seriously for what they do, and many work hand in hand with medical doctors when they have doctors who aren’t stuck in the stone age mentally when it comes to something other than what they are trained for. I guess the next thing this person will write a book on is the evils of going to a homeopathic doctor. Sorry for any and all typos or slips in grammar. If you find them, please refrain from trying to build an argument over a typo. Thanks.

        • Quick correction. My nurse friend worked with critical care open heart surgery patients. She had considered becoming doctor at one point but decided to remain a nurse because she could take care of the patients better, which sometimes included correcting doctors errors.

  • … to get the deal you have to sign up for another apt where your spouse has to come in with you where they explain the x-rays (weird).

    Not “weird”, it’s “cunning”. They want to get the wife signed up too. They take courses in methods to maximise the business this way. It’s called “practice building”. If he is hard up he might even have a go at your dog too:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqqXOMg4mJk 😀
    All this juggling and paperwork is mostly to make the process seem more impressive, thorough and sciency. Even the X-rays are mostly for make believe. Real radiologists who have reviewed films from chiropractors in my town confirm they are extremely poorly made and practically useless for diagnostic purposes. They see a number of them when chiros think they see a calcification or destruction somewhere and send the poor patient, paralysed from fear to a real doctor with the films. Usually it is bening pelvic calcifications in veins or uterus.
     
    A word of warning… If I had a slipped or herniatied disc, the last thing I would want is for a 180lb. muscle packet (description of the chiro I tried) to twist and thump the disc and risk him “mobilising” it further out of place. Who knows if the bl-y thing loosens and herniates even more?? Forget it. Better to let time and exercise do their magic or see a real spine specialist if there are big problems.
    My pals at the ER tell me they have had people come crawling in on all fours in severe pain shortly after being manipulated by a chiropractor, perhaps with a brief relief at first but then ten times worse. For some odd reasaon they never seem to get back at the chiro and complain or sue. I guess it’s useless?
    One hears of the odd patient in pain who walked much improved out of the chiro’s office but from what I understand, that trick (some kind of “long lever” manipulation) is not specific to chiropractic skills and many doctors know it. Generally it’s the patients who would have become better anyway who think they had benefit from chiropractic adjustments and keep coming back for more useless maintenance adjustments. The one’s they manage to dupe into this “maintenance plan” make up the bulk of their practice from what I understand.
     
    As you can see I have lost all respect for the discipline and doings of (“straight”) chiropractic and I describe things in unpolished words as they appear to me.
    Chiropractic, i.e. the original mumbo-jumbo originating in DD Palmers thick head should be outlawed by the chiropractic community itself. They can do so much good with massage and soft tissue and joint manipulations of the real kind, without the theatrical placebo ploy.
    The poor chiropractors of course take my honesty as rudeness and disrespect – It’s reality shining in their face.

  • Bjorn, why do you continually repeat your own personal experiences with a chiropractor (which I doubt) and then whenever someone else posts a positive experience you attack it for not being verifiable or scientifically measured, or for whatever reasons you attack individual accounts of positive chiropractic experiences.

    Also, when are you going to start contacting all major USA sports teams and tell them they need to fire their chiropractors and that all USA professional sports teams are wasting money on chiropractors and that you know more than they do? Or is it just that the USA is behind everyone else, IE, we are all stupid and backward in the USA vs like wherever you are, Denmark or wherever…???

  • Case Report

    Chiropractic Treatment of Lateral Epicondylitis: A Case Report Utilizing Active Release Techniques
    Jordan A. Gliedt, DC[low asterisk] and Clinton J. Daniels, DC, MS

    The purpose of this report is to describe the chiropractic management of a case of lateral epicondylitis with active release techniques (ART).

    Clinical features

    A 48-year-old white man presented to a chiropractic clinic with a complaint of left lateral elbow pain that began 2 years previous with insidious onset. The patient reported an inability to play 18 consecutive holes of golf due to the pain.

    Intervention and outcome

    Treatment consisted of 5 sessions of ART (a soft tissue technique that is applied to muscles, fascia, tendons, ligaments, and nerves) applied to the left elbow soft tissue over a duration of 3 weeks. The patient reported an absence of pain and ability to consistently play 18 consecutive holes of golf up to 3 times per week at 4 and 8 weeks post-treatment.

    Conclusion

    This patient with lateral epicondylitis responded favorably to chiropractic treatment using the application of ART, as demonstrated by reduced pain and increased functional outcomes.

    Key indexing terms: Tennis elbow, Lateral humeral epicondylitis, Musculoskeletal manipulations, Chiropractic

    • congratulations! most convincing.

      • Why so frustrated, AND…dare I say…angry? It’s palpable in the way you write. Did you have a bad experience? Are you simply going by what your instructors taught you to believe? Be happy man! We’re all just trying to help people. And I agree, more research, more research. It’s all good.

        • Jay, your comment has reminded me that many/most alternologists mistakenly believe that the term “control group” refers to the group of people over which they have managed to gain power and control. Your recent comments suggest that you react poorly to those whom you have not yet been able to mesmerise with your ‘professional’ bullshit.

  • In reply to Björn Geir:
    It seems we agree on some things. If a chiro tries to sign you up to an expensive long course of treatment or attempts to get you to bring in other family members for a “family plan”, RUN!
    As for a “slipped disc” (I hate that term), the majority are asymptomatic and often produce an over-reaction when seen on imaging! If symptomatic and chronic then a conservative, graded approach is warranted. starting with chiro, physio, massage, exercise, strengthening, rehab, lifestyle advice etc. If these don’t work then its time for spinal injections then pain clinics and finally surgery. If there is hard neuro signs, especially weakness or any red flags then I refer straight to a neurosurgeon! He frequently refers the patient straight back with advice to keep working on the patient as he is not prepared to operate. I work with medico’s and physio’s, not in opposition!
    As for straight chiropractors being outlawed and dealt with by the profession! I totally agree! The Chiropractic Association of Australia (CAA) talks of “unity with diversity” which is absolute BS! One of many reasons I shifted to the other major association here COCA 20+ years ago! Tolerating the BS or remaining silent is a form of endorsement, which I will never do! COCA has also had a gut full and is becoming more outspoken and proactive, mush to CAA’s annoyance! Long Overdue IMHO! If the profession wants respect then, as you say, we must deal with the subluxation true believers! This is happening as is reflected by the comments of the straights here who feel very threatened and attempted to set up their own straight private college by stealth based on the Barcelona College model. Barcelona’s failure to gain accreditation has derailed their plans!

  • good points Thinking_chiro…

    Bjorn, other chiro-haters, can you respond to my questions re, if chiropractic is so bad, why does virtually every professional sports team in the USA have chiropractors on staff? I argue they are on staff because chiropractic works, and it has been shown time and again to work. Bjorn you seem to think health can only come through a needle and a scalpel. I tell you there is nothing more ingenious in the known universe than the combination hands and brain, IE, a manual practitioner using his/her hands under the control of a human brain. To sum up, Bjorn, and other chiro-haters here, you are what I call “modern dinosaurs.” The world is leaving you behind because you maintain mistaken assumptions that health can only come from injections, pill, and scalpels. You fail to understand other dimensions to physiology and healing. Arrogance only makes you look bad my friend..

    Looking forward to your responses as to why virtually every professional sports team have chiropractors on staff? Oh, there is one NFL team that has no chiropractors: Oakland Raiders. Check out their record from last year, I think they managed to win 2 games the entire season—

    Also Bjorn, when will you answer my question regarding why its okay for you to import your personal experiences with a chiropractor into discussion, but whenever anyone else discusses positive outcomes, they are not valid because they are merely personal experiences? I am sure it will be a cold day in hell before I get some solid answers here.

    • LMOA….Being a HS football coach for some years now, I have to reply to the Raiders comment and it’s bad record having to do with chiropractic care,,,,,I mean that is just plan idiotic. If you cant throw, tackle, block, or run better than the team across from you, your NOT going to win many games, and I’d really evaluate who is evaluating my incoming talent (DRAFT PICKS) or my coaching staff who are getting out coached week to week. Most college’s and no High Schools to my knowledge have a chiro on staff. So Based on their talent they are either successfull or they’re not, chiro care has zero to do with that.

    • @ Nicholas
      Sorry, I did not see the question you addressed to me before Kenneth left his comment yesterday.
      Your question is easily answered. The reason why professional sports teams employ chiropractors is contained in one term: Gullibility.
      There is probably no type of adult, mentally intact human beings who are more gullible than athletes of any kind when the subject involves health- fitness- and performance-enhancing means and methods.
      Sportsmen are prime marks for snake-oil marketing of any kind. Just look at your morning paper, there will be several ads directly peddling performance enhancing stuff intended for athletes.
      Be it supplements for muscle-building or extra energy, silly coloured placebo-tapes or theatrical therapies involving a blend of massage and magic, an athlete is not going to say no to the remote possibility of better performance or less soreness. A pro football team with money to burn will of course hire a chiropractor just in case it might help. Especially since almost all the other teams have them.
       
      Please note that your comment is full of fallacies and made-up nonsense. I do not “hate” chiropractors. I feel sorry for them, and for their marks.
      Your attempts at building strawmen and childish “tu quoque” arguments are not impressing anyone. Very few idiots read the comments on this blog and those who do are not happy with me anyway.

  • While I enjoy reading various view points, for my own experience, I went to medical doctors for a chronic body tension that wouldn’t go away and piriformis syndrome. Doctors took tests and all my test results were fine. The doctor stated “your tests results are fine, there is nothing wrong with you.” I said “I know my body, I am a dancer, and there is a problem.” She replied, “You’re getting older, we all have aches and pains.” I said, “I understand that, but this is different.” This was the head of the medical department of the hospital I go to. Unless you need surgery, have a broken bone, stabbed, shot, or something that is clear cut, doctors have been utterly useless in my life. I went to do massage, didn’t help, my massage therapist said my body was rejecting her work. I did acupunture and changed my diet, helped somewhat, then I went to a chiropractor (I went to another chiropractor previously and it didn’t work.) he x-rayed me, the next day told me his findings, within one adjustment the feelings went away and I danced for 2 hours that day. I have been going regularly and while I am still not 100% I am dancing again, going to the gym and feeling overall a lot better though there is tension. Thats funny you say their knowledge is less than doctors, which might be true. But why do I, a generic person know more than any doctor I see? I tell them what to do when I go to the doctor because all they do is try to give me drugs or misdiagnose me. Has been an issue since i was 21 and im in my late 30’s now. My doctor told me last week that I need to stop acting like I know more than they do because I do. 😉 Thats pretty sad that some regular guy knows more about my issues than the doctors do when they have labs, other doctors to talk with, and other devices at their disposal. This doesn’t mean all doctors are bad, but I have had very negative experiences with them. My current chiropractor has not used strange devices. He basically said, “what I do is allow the body to communicate better thus using the bodies own healing potential to heal itself.” I feel this. Sure, its not for everyone or every condition and there are times to go see medical doctors and there are risks, just like there are risks in surgery, taking medication, and being misdiagnosed by a medical doctor….

  • Look people chiropractic treatment is equivalent to a body massage it’s really nothing more but knowledge of the body…. it’s a prescribed massage… massage parlor or chiropractor we really could lose 1

  • Listening to medical folks call chiropractic quackery reminds me of the same medical field that told people who suffered from Fibromyalgia that it was all in their head. How many people died before medical doctors took it to heart that by washing your hands between patients, or going from cadavers to humans would save lives? The medical profession has always been slow on the uptake. Psychoanalysis had a hard road to acceptance at a time when psychiatry consisted of frontal lobotamies, electro-shock treatments, ice baths, lots of pills and other treatments now considered quackery by the same field that spawned them. Is it fair to judge the medical profession now by the idiot treatments of the past? Yet they refuse to acknowledge the strides chiropractic has taken, and the many doctors who have learned their craft well and have brought results to their patients. For every bad chiropractic experience, you will find way worse medical experiences.

    Too many people put their trust behind, M.D., and many of these M.D.’s are performing plastic surgery with the most minimal training, to the detriment of the patients. We know movie stars are going to MD’s when they have plastic surgery. And look at how botched many of them are. Look at how many people have died from bad plastic surgery. A bad personal experience doesn’t condemn the whole field. One question. In the list of 20 things a chiropractor won’t tell you was that certain adjustments to the neck increased the risk of stroke. My question is how many people have died of stroke due to chiropractic adjustments? Without numbers, this is MEANINGLESS. It is hypothetical. If you have some numbers, I am interested in knowing or else I will attribute this to a statement made that lacks any real research or study whatsoever and said to be nothing more than a scare tactic.

  • I have recently been going to a chiropractor for a lower back injury (a bulging disk) and I am not entirely sure any of the relief or healing I am getting is in fact from going– I attribute a lot of my healing to simply rest, time, and a lot of my own at home stretching. My chiropractor is trying to guilt and persuade me into maintain 3x weekly ‘adjustments’ that don’t seem to really affect me-
    but, how do I know if it is helping at all?
    I will say though that the fact that he is trying to guilt me is not a very good sign for chiropractor health, to me anyway.

    • That’s what chiropractors do….it’s a HUSTLE! Stop giving in!

      • I knew a couple who were so impressed by chiropractors that they both decided to study to become chiropractors. They changed their minds when the “training” mostly consisted of seminars about how to boost income by persuading patients to come in for frequent visits.

    • @Kelsey,
      I was referred to a chiropractor by my GP when I had sciatica more than thirty years ago. I assume the GP had no understanding of chiropractic, apart from “back related”.
      ~
      The chiropractic treatment was useless in relieving the pain, other symptoms, or the prolapsed disc. The only “benefit” may have been the damage the chiropractor did, which forced me to see a neurosurgeon who operated and cured me with real medicine.
      ~
      I don’t want to disparage orthopaedic surgeons, however, for a prolapsed disc, I would still see a neurosurgeon in preference.

  • chiropractor is bogus like perhaps palm reading, and they call themselves doctor??
    give me a break, you are masseuse with funky college degree that only make some crack noise in people back and interpret it as cure for subluxation.

  • I never considered going to a chiropractor until 1 year ago a family member suggested it to me because I was suffering with daily headaches and other back/shoulder/neck pains, which although mild because they were constant meant I was taking ibuprofen every single day and no matter what I did nothing helped.
    When I got there I gave a brief explanation of why I was there, no x-rays were done, my Chiropractor felt my back, shoulders and neck and they were able to tell me I had muscular problems in places I was having pain which I hadn’t told them about. My neck was especially sore to work with, but not unbearable, but afterwards I felt relief in my head and after three sessions no longer suffered from headaches all day, every day.
    I would recommend chiropractice for everyone, but also to see a good practitioner, not just anyone. I have never felt that my chiropractor was trying to sell my anything, they have never pushed for extra sessions I don’t feel I need, never pushed any pseudo-science on me, never tried to sell supplements etc., only relieved the pain I felt in my muscles which was causing me to ache so badly even though I am in my early twenties. I read the list of claims levelled at chiropractors on here and none of them resonate or apply to my experience of chiropractice at all, although I don’t doubt that there are bad chiropractors out there who have these awful practices.
    Happily seeing my chiropractor again this year due to the same problem recurring (though much milder) which is not the fault of the original treatment (which was excellent) but because I haven’t altered my poor posture, habits and sleeping position (I’m working on this, it’s true what your parents say about sitting up after all 😉 !)

    • @Jane

      It may or may not come as a surprise to you but from your description it is quite easy to tell that your experience has nothing at all to do with “chiropractic” diagnostics or therapy. Other than the title on your therapists calling card.
      I am not saying you did not get good and correct service. You probably got excellent service but the magic trick that got you better had nothing to do with the nonsense invented by DD Palmer some hundred years ago and ubiquitously used today by chiropractors who, believe it or not, themselves are more or less blind to its nature.
      Your problem is a very common and simple one that is usually self- limiting and very easy to diagnose. Its treatment is very simple and usually rewarding. Two thirds of us get it sometime during our lives and it goes by many names such as “muscular strain”, “knitters neck”, “cervicalgia” or simply “neck pain”. If unrelieved, and the aggravating posture or overuse of muscle groups by wrong posture and bad ergonomics continues, with time it tends to become more chronic and harder to treat, but not impossible.
      Its diagnosis and treatment is in the realm of physiotherapy, massage therapy and other bona fide manual therapy disciplines. It is so simple to diagnose and treat that even I occasionally apply the magic to my wifes muscle aches.

      My analysis of your story is as follows. Your chiropractor immediately recognised the problem from the first words of description and your demeanour. You came to him when you were at your worst. He decided he did not need to play with the x-ray machine or other useless make-believe diagnostics such as the Surface ElectroMyography” toy or other magic wands. He could start the treatment right away, with his fingers as he was impressing you by finding sore muscle inflamation points you hadn’t yourself specifically noticed before. He probably did not even bring out the “clicker”, a silly little contraption they call “activator”, used to impress on the “worried well” customer by randomly clicking on their spinal processes.
      It was impressive enough for you, when he massaged out the edemea from the “knots” he felt in your neck and shoulder muscles as he verbally induced confidence and admiration. Sure it felt uncomfortably relieving. He massaged the swollen parts in the muscles, getting the cirkulation going and thereby giving your poor muscles a chance to start renewing their resources. He (rightly) told you why you were having the problem and how you should change your posture in work and leisure. I bet he even told you to buy a better pillow.
      I would be surprised though if he didn’t add a bit of the chiropractic signature theatrical i.e. the “adjustment”, which is their hallmark manipulation technique. No real chiropractor omits to twist you up like a pretsel and do a thump or two on the spine to honour the memory of old Palmer, the magnetic healer who invented the whole racket out of his uneducated imagination.

    • @Jane,
      Why not go to a physiotherapist, from which chiropractic has stolen those forms of treatment, to flesh out their grab-bag of witchcraft, in order to attempt to legitimise it?

  • In reply to Edzard:
    AE reporting should be mandatory across all professions, chiro, physio, osteo and GP’s.. We have discussed it on previous threads here. This problem is not unique to chiropractic. An Orthopod here proposed a standardized AE reporting system in hospital A&E that then gets sent to the relevant professional board for investigation. Great idea!
    In reply to Kelsey S:
    If a chiro tries to sign you up to a long care plan, run. The goal of any treatment should be to transition you off passive chiro care onto active self help as rapidly as possible. Explaining what is pain and what you can do about it is also vitally important. Ask the chiro lots of questions and if you are not satisfied then look else where!

  • I don’t want my neck cracked by my chiropractor. If I refuse this method of treatment will he be willing to just stick to therapeutic massage, electrodes, neck exercises? or is he likely to drop me?

  • In reply to clyde:
    Patient consent to any treatment is mandatory. If you say don’t crack my neck then the chiro must respect your decision. Any treatment with a patient is a collaborative process, the patient is in control, the patient decides and the practitioner respects that decision.

  • The popularity of chiropractic is at an all-time high,
    • 80% of Americans will suffer from back pain at some point in their lives.
    • Back symptoms are the most common cause of disability for individuals under the age of 45.
    • 20% of all American military medical discharges are due to low back pain.
    • More than 20 million Americans will seek chiropractic care this year.
    • Chiropractic has been around for more than 100 years.
    • Today there are approximately 50,000 chiropractors in the United States – 10,000 in Japan – 5,000 in Canada – 2,500 in Australia – 1,000 in the U.K. – and 100-500 in each of Belgium, Denmark, France, Italy, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, New Zealand, South Africa, and The Netherlands.
    • In the western world 85% of people will be disabled by back pain at some point in their lives.
    Spine 12(3):264-268.
    • 1992 costs associated with low back pain in the U.S. were estimated to be $60 billion.
    The Manga Report – 1993.
    • Nearly 30% of the U.S. population aged 18 and older have used chiropractic.
    The Gallup Organization – 1991.
    • WCB studies indicate a 45-55% saving in overall costs when treatments are provided by a chiropractors instead of a medical doctors.
    California, 1972 – Wisconsin, 1978 – Florida,1988 – Utah,1991 – State of Victoria, Australia, 1992.
    • 9 out of 10 chiropractic users feel their treatment is effective.
    The Gallup Organization – 1991.
    • 58% of those using chiropractic considered it an essential part of their health insurance package.
    The Gallup Organization – 1991.
    • “Chiropractic patients were 3 times more satisfied with their care than patients of family practice physicians.”
    Western Journal of Medicine – 1989.
    • “Chiropractors are now accepted as a legitimate healing profession by the public and by an increasing number of physicians.”
    The Manga Report – 1993.
    • “Chiropractic is a growing component of the health care sector, and it is widely used by the population.”
    The College of William and Mary, Williamsburg, Virginia, and Medical College of Virginia, Richmond, Virginia, January 1992.
    • 94% of all spinal manipulations are performed by chiropractors.
    RAND Corporation.

  • Research Supporting Chiropractic Care
    The chiropractic profession has actually accumulated a greater number of scientific trials than the medical profession has for many of the more common treatments rendered by medical doctors. According to David M. Edy, M.D., Ph.D., professor of health policy and management with Duke University, North Carolina, only 15 percent of all medical interventions are supported by solid scientific evidence. Paul G. Shekelle, M.D., MPH, of the RAND Corporation made the following statement on ABC’s 20/20, “There are considerably more randomized controlled trials which show benefit of this (chiropractic) than there are for many, many other things which physicians and neurosurgeons do all the time.”
    According to a study conducted by Ontario’s Ministry of Health “…for the management of low-back pain, chiropractic care is the most effective treatment, and it should be fully integrated into the government’s health care system.” The same study also found, “…injured workers … diagnosed with low-back pain returned to work much sooner when treated by chiropractors than by physicians.”

    According to the British Medical Research Council Study, spinal manipulation performed by chiropractors was found more effective than alternative treatments for low-back pain.

    According to medical researcher TW Meade, M.D. “…chiropractic is a very effective treatment, more effective than conventional hospital outpatient treatment for low-back pain, particularly in patients who had back pain in the past and who got severe problems”.
    The Effectiveness and Cost Effectiveness of Chiropractic Management of Low-Back Pain (The Manga Report). Pran Manga and Associates (1993) – University of Ottawa, Canada.
    Low Back Pain of Mechanical Origin: Randomized Comparison of Chiropractic and Hospital Outpatient Treatment. Meade, TW et al British Medical Journal – 1990;300:1431-1437.

    A growing list of research studies and reviews demonstrate that the services provided by chiropractic physicians are both safe and effective. Following are excerpts and summaries from a few of the more recent studies. The evidence strongly supports the natural, whole-body and cost-effective approach of chiropractic care for a variety of conditions.
    ________________________________________
    For Acute and Chronic Pain
    “Many treatments are available for low back pain. Often exercises and physical therapy can help. Some people benefit from chiropractic therapy or acupuncture.” –Goodman et al. (2013), Journal of the American Medical Association
    “[Chiropractic Manipulative Therapy] in conjunction with [standard medical care] offers a significant advantage for decreasing pain and improving physical functioning when compared with only standard care, for men and women between 18 and 35 years of age with acute low back pain.” –Goertz et al. (2013), Spine
    In a Randomized controlled trial, 183 patients with neck pain were randomly allocated to manual therapy (spinal mobilization), physiotherapy (mainly exercise) or general practitioner care (counseling, education and drugs) in a 52-week study. The clinical outcomes measures showed that manual therapy resulted in faster recovery than physiotherapy and general practitioner care. Moreover, total costs of the manual therapy-treated patients were about one-third of the costs of physiotherapy or general practitioner care. — Korthals-de Bos et al (2003), British Medical Journal
    “Patients with chronic low-back pain treated by chiropractors showed greater improvement and satisfaction at one month than patients treated by family physicians. Satisfaction scores were higher for chiropractic patients. A higher proportion of chiropractic patients (56 percent vs. 13 percent) reported that their low-back pain was better or much better, whereas nearly one-third of medical patients reported their low-back pain was worse or much worse.” – Nyiendo et al (2000), Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics
    ________________________________________
    In Comparison to Other Treatment Alternatives
    “Reduced odds of surgery were observed for…those whose first provider was a chiropractor. 42.7% of workers [with back injuries] who first saw a surgeon had surgery, in contrast to only 1.5% of those who saw a chiropractor.” – Keeney et al (2012), Spine
    “Acute and chronic chiropractic patients experienced better outcomes in pain, functional disability, and patient satisfaction; clinically important differences in pain and disability improvement were found for chronic patients.” – Haas et al (2005), Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics
    “In our randomized, controlled trial, we compared the effectiveness of manual therapy, physical therapy, and continued care by a general practitioner in patients with nonspecific neck pain. The success rate at seven weeks was twice as high for the manual therapy group (68.3 percent) as for the continued care group (general practitioner). Manual therapy scored better than physical therapy on all outcome measures. Patients receiving manual therapy had fewer absences from work than patients receiving physical therapy or continued care, and manual therapy and physical therapy each resulted in statistically significant less analgesic use than continued care.” – Hoving et al (2002), Annals of Internal Medicine

  • Cost Effectiveness Studies
    It was estimated that 1992 low back pain costs in the US were a staggering $60 billion when production lost was taken into consideration. Research has indicated that low back pain disability is growing 14 times faster than the population. It’s the leading cause of disability and morbidity in middle-aged persons, and is the most expensive source of workers’ compensation costs in North America. In the 30-50 age group, low back pain is the single most expensive health care problem.
    The escalating costs associated with low back pain have prompted legislators, policy makers and insurance companies to investigate cost-containment strategies. As you will see in the following studies, chiropractic care has been consistently identified as one of the most effective and cost effective treatments for the management of many low back conditions, in addition to a number of other neuromusculoskeletal disorders. Moreover, the volume of scientific evidence now being compiled makes a compelling case for the use of chiropractic as a means of controlling the escalating costs of our overburdened health care system.
    Prevalence of Selected Impairments. United States – 1971. National Center for Health Statistics, Hyattsville, Maryland – 1975, DHHS Publication No. (PHS)75-1526 (Series 10, No. 9) and 1981 DHHS Publication No. (PHS) 87-1587 (Series 10, No. 159)
    Back Injuries in Industry: A Retrospective Study Part I Overview and Cost Analysis. Spengler et al. Spine, 1986 – 11(3):241-245.
    • THE MANGA REPORT
    • THE UTAH STUDY
    • THE OAKLAND UNIVERSITY STUDY
    • THE VIRGINIA RESEARCH STUDY
    • THE FLORIDA STUDY
    • THE AV-MED STUDY
    • THE AUSTRALIAN STUDY

    ________________________________________THE MANGA REPORT
    The following excerpts from the Canadian government commissioned study clearly indicates the cost effectiveness of chiropractic treatment over standard medical treatment:
    • “The overwhelming body of evidence shows that chiropractic management of low-back pain is more cost effective than medical management, and that many medical therapies are of questionable validity or are clearly inadequate … Chiropractic manipulation is safer than medical management of low-back pain.”
    • “There would be highly significant cost savings if more management of low-back pain was transferred from physicians to chiropractors… Users of chiropractic care have substantially lower health care costs, especially inpatient costs, than those who use medical care only.”
    The Effectiveness and Cost Effectiveness of Chiropractic Management of Low-Back Pain (The Manga Report). Pran Manga and Associates (1993) – University of Ottawa, Canada.
    ________________________________________THE UTAH STUDY
    In 1988 a Utah Workers’ Compensation Board study found the total treatment costs for back-related injuries cost an average of $775.30 per case when treated by a doctor of chiropractic. When injured workers received standard medical treatment as opposed to chiropractic treatment, the average cost per case was $1,665.43.

    They also found the mean compensation cost paid out by the Utah Worker’s Compensation Board for patients treated by medical doctors was $668.39, while the mean compensation cost paid for patients treated by chiropractic doctors was only $68.38.
    Cost per Case Analysis of Utah Industrial Back Injury Claims: Chiropractic Management vs. Medical Management for Diagnostically Equivalent Conditions. D.C. Tracts – 1989.
    Cost per Case Comparison of Back Injury Claims of Chiropractic versus medical Management for Conditions with Identical Diagnostic Codes. Jarvis KB, et al. Journal of Occupational Medicine – 1991;33:847-852.

    ________________________________________THE OAKLAND UNIVERSITY STUDY
    After reviewing the health insurance claims for 395,641 chiropractic and medical care patients, Miron Stano, Ph.D., lead researcher, concluded:

    Those patients who receive chiropractic care, either solely or in conjunction with medical care, experienced “significantly lower health care costs… on the order of $1,000 each over the two-year period” compared with those who received only medical care. Specifically, total insurance payments were $1,138 (30% higher) for those who elected medical care only. The lower costs for chiropractic patients were attributable both to lower inpatient and outpatient costs and indicated that “chiropractic treatment substitutes for other forms of outpatient care.”
    Stano/Medstat Research. Miron Stano, Ph.D. Oakland University.
    ________________________________________THE VIRGINIA RESEARCH STUDY
    An economic analysis conducted in Richmond, Virginia in 1992 found chiropractic care to be a lower cost option for back-related ailments. The researchers concluded that if chiropractic care was insured to the extent of other medical specialties, it would likely emerge as a first option for many patients with certain medical conditions. They also believed this could result in a decrease in the overall treatment costs for these conditions.

    Additional research conducted by The College of William and Mary and the Medical College of Virginia in 1992 on mandated health insurance coverage and the economic impact of chiropractic coverage revealed:
    • The low cost of chiropractic is due not to its low rate of use, but to its apparently offsetting impacts on costs in the face of high rates of utilization. Chiropractic is a growing component of the health care sector, and it is widely used by the population.
    • Formal studies of the cost, effectiveness, or both of chiropractic, usually measured against other forms of treatment, show it to compare favorably with them.
    • By every test of cost and effectiveness, the general weight of evidence shows chiropractic to provide important therapeutic benefits, at economical costs. Additionally, these benefits are achieved with apparently minimal, even negligible, impacts on the costs of health insurance.
    • The conclusion of this analysis is that chiropractic mandates help make available health care that is widely used by the American public and has proven to be cost-effective.
    A Comparison of the Costs of Chiropractors versus Alternative Medical Practitioners. Dean DH, Schmidt RM. University of Richmond, Richmond, Virginia – January 13, 1992.
    Mandated Health Insurance Coverage for Chiropractic Treatment: An Economic Assessment, with Implications for the Commonwealth of Virginia. Schifrin LG. The College of William and Mary, Williamsburg, Virginia, and Medical College of Virginia, Richmond, Virginia – January 1992.
    ________________________________________THE FLORIDA STUDY
    This large State of Florida study examined 10,652 patients who sustained back-related injuries on the job. Their findings revealed that individuals who received chiropractic care compared with standard medical care for similar diagnoses experienced had a (i) 51.3 percent shorter temporary total disability duration (ii) lower treatment cost by 58.8 percent ($558 vs. $1,100 per case) (iii) 20.3 percent hospitalization rate in the chiropractic care group vs. 52.2 percent rate in the medical care group.
    An Analysis of Florida Workers’ Compensation Medical Claims for Back Related Injuries. Wolk S. Foundation for Chiropractic Education and Research, Arlington, VA. – 1988.
    ________________________________________THE AV-MED STUDY
    In this study, 80 patients who previously received medical treatment were subsequently referred to the Silverman Chiropractic Center. Of the 80 patients, 21 percent had just been diagnosed with spinal disc problems, 12 percent had been diagnosed as requiring surgery and 5 percent had received emergency room treatment. Following chiropractic treatment, none of the patients were required to have surgery, 86 percent of the patients needed no further care, and the estimated health care savings in the group of 80 was estimated to be $250,000.
    The Av-Med Study – 1993.
    ________________________________________THE AUSTRALIAN STUDY
    In this Australian study, 1,996 workers’ compensation cases were evaluated in patients who experienced work-related mechanical low back pain. It was found that those individuals who received chiropractic care for their back pain returned to work 4 times faster (6.26 days vs. 25.56 days) and had treatment that cost 4 times less ($392 vs. $1,569) than those who received treatments from medical doctors. Also, in those patients who received chiropractic care there was a significantly lower incidence of progression to a chronic low back pain status.
    Mechanical Low-Back Pain: A Comparison of Medical and Chiropractic Management Within the Victorian Work Care Scheme. Ebrall, PS. Chiropractic Journal of Australia – 1992;22:47-53.

    ________________________________________Effectiveness Studies

    THE AGENCY ON HEALTH CARE POLICY AND RESEARCH STUDY
    • THE RAND STUDY
    • THE MANGA REPORT
    • THE AV-MED STUDY
    • THE MIDWEST RESEARCH INSTITUTE STUDY
    • THE ANNALS OF INTERNAL MEDICINE STUDY

    ________________________________________THE AGENCY ON HEALTH CARE POLICY AND RESEARCH STUDY
    On December 8, 1994, the Agency for Health Care Policy and Research (AHCPR) of the US Department of Health and Human Services released Clinical Practice Guidelines for the management of acute low back pain. Their guidelines were developed after extensive study of diagnostic and treatment methods for acute low back pain.
    The guidelines were created by the AHCPR panel to provide primary care clinicians with information and recommended strategies for the assessment and treatment of acute low back problems. The AHCPR panel was made up of 23 members consisting of medical doctors, chiropractic doctors, nurses, experts in spinal research, physical therapists, an occupational therapist, a psychologist, and a consumer representative.
    The following conclusions were made in this landmark study:
    • Conservative treatment such as spinal manipulation should be pursued in most before cases considering surgical intervention;
    • Prescription drugs such as oral steroids, antidepressant medications and colchicine are not recommended for acute low back problems.
    Other interesting finds included:
    The risk of serious complications from lumbar spinal manipulation is rare;
    There is currently no evidence supporting the use of trigger point, ligamentous and facet injections, needle acupuncture or dry needling as treatment for acute back problems;
    The panel found no evidence of benefit from the application of physical agents and modalities such as ice, heat, massage, traction, ultrasound, cutaneous laser treatment, transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulation (T.E.N.S.) and biofeedback techniques.
    Acute Low Back Problems in Adults. Clinical Practice Guidelines. Bigos S, et al. Agency for Health Care Policy and Research Publication No. 950642 (U.S. Department of Health and Human Services) -1994.
    ________________________________________THE RAND CORPORATION STUDY
    Members of the Medical Community Recognize Chiropractic’s Effectiveness

    This study, conducted by the prestigious RAND Corporation, marks the first time representatives of the U.S. medical community have gone on record stating that chiropractic is an appropriate treatment for certain low back pain conditions. A second, all-chiropractic panel’s ratings show agreement with the multidisciplinary panel that spinal manipulation is appropriate for specific kinds of low back pain. A utilization study examining chiropractic patients’ charts in multiple geographical locations in the United States is now underway. This will allow investigators to examine actual clinical cases and learn how prevalent each condition is in practice.

    The RAND Corporation (“Research and Development”) is a nonprofit private corporation in Santa Monica, California. They conduct research and development for the U.S. government and private sector, commanding international respect. It’s research programs include classified defense research for the military, applied economics, education, sociology, civil justice and health sciences.

    The Appropriateness of Spinal Manipulation for Lower Back Pain. Shekelle PG, et al. RAND Corporation, Santa Monica, California – 1992.

    ________________________________________THE MANGA REPORT
    As the largest existing analysis of scientific literature on low back pain, the 1993 Ontario Ministry of Health commissioned study drew international attention when it recommended the management of low back pain be moved from medical doctors to chiropractic doctors.

    Due to serious financial problems with the Canadian governments, the different types of treatments for low back conditions were evaluated in an effort to reduce and contain health care costs. Their findings showed chiropractic manipulation was the most cost effective and efficacious care for low back pain.

    The researchers also stated that studies on the prevalence and incidence of low back pain suggest that it is the leading cause of disability and morbidity in middle-aged persons, and is by far the most expensive source of workers’ compensation costs North America.

    ________________________________________The Canadian Government report concluded with the following findings:
    • On the evidence, particularly the most scientifically valid clinical studies, spinal manipulation applied by chiropractors is shown to be more effective than alternative treatments for low back pain. Many medical therapies are of questionable validity or are clearly inadequate;
    • There is no clinical or case-control study that demonstrates or even implies that chiropractic spinal manipulation is unsafe in the treatment of low back pain. Some medical treatments are equally safe, but others are unsafe and generate iatrogenic (doctor-induced) complications for low back pain patients. Our reading of the literature suggests that chiropractic manipulation is safer than medical management of low back pain;
    • Indeed, several existing medical therapies of low back pain are generally contraindicated on the basis of the existing clinical trials. There is also some evidence in the literature to suggest that spinal manipulations are less safe and less effective when performed by nonchiropractic professionals;
    • There is an overwhelming body of evidence indicating that chiropractic management of low back pain is more cost-effective than medical management;
    • There would be highly significant cost savings if more management of low back pain was transferred from physicians to chiropractors. Evidence from Canada and other countries suggests potential savings of many hundreds of millions annually;
    • Workers’ compensation studies report that injured workers with the same specific diagnosis of low back pain returned to work much sooner when treated by chiropractors than by medical physicians;
    • There is good empirical evidence that patients are very satisfied with chiropractic management of low back pain and considerably less satisfied with medical physician management;
    • The use of chiropractic has grown steadily over the years and chiropractors are now accepted as a legitimate healing profession by the public and an increasing number of medical physicians;
    In our view, the following offers an overwhelming case in favor of much greater use of chiropractic services in the management of low back pain:
    • the effectiveness and cost effectiveness of chiropractic management of low back pain
    • the untested, questionable or harmful nature of many current medical therapies
    • the economic efficiency of chiropractic care for low back pain compared with medical care
    • the safety of chiropractic care
    • the higher satisfaction levels expressed by patients of chiropractors.

    The following recommendations were also included in the report:
    There should be a shift in policy to encourage and prefer chiropractic services for most patients with low back pain;
    • Chiropractic services should be fully insured under the Ontario Health Insurance Plan;
    • Chiropractic services should be fully integrated into the health care system;
    • Chiropractors should be employed by tertiary hospitals in Ontario;
    • Hospital privileges should be extended to all chiropractors for the purposes of treatment of their own patients who have been hospitalized for other reasons, and for access to diagnostic facilities relevant to their scope of practice and patients’ needs;
    • Chiropractic should have access to all pertinent patient records and tests from hospitals, physicians, and other health care professionals upon the consent of their patients;
    • Since low back pain is of such significant concern to workers’ compensation, chiropractors should be engaged at a senior level by Workers’ Compensation Board to assess policy, procedures and treatment of workers with low back injuries;
    • A very good case can be made for making chiropractors the gatekeepers for management of low back pain in the workers’ compensation system in Ontario;
    • The government should make the requisite research funds and resources available for further clinical evaluations of chiropractic management of low back pain, and for further socioeconomic and policy research concerning the management of low back pain generally;
    • Chiropractic education in Ontario should be in the multidisciplinary atmosphere of a university with appropriate public finding;
    • Finally, the government should take all reasonable steps to actively encourage cooperation between providers, particularly the chiropractic, medical and physiotherapy professions.
    The Effectiveness and Cost Effectiveness of Chiropractic Management of Low-Back Pain. Pran Manga and Associates. University of Ottawa, Canada – 1993.
    ________________________________________THE AV-MED STUDY
    In this study, 80 patients who previously received medical treatment were subsequently referred to the Silverman Chiropractic Center. Of the 80 patients, 21 percent had just been diagnosed with spinal disc problems, 12 percent had been diagnosed as requiring surgery and 5 percent had received emergency room treatment. Following chiropractic treatment, none of the patients were required to have surgery, 86 percent of the patients needed no further care, and the estimated health care savings in the group of 80 was estimated to be $250,000.
    The Av-Med Study – 1993.
    THE MIDWEST RESEARCH INSTITUTE STUDY
    This study examined clinical trials published in the professional literature between 1930 and 1981.

    The researchers concluded that:
    • manual therapy was superior to placebos,
    • there was greater mobility following manipulation,
    • the duration of treatment was shorter for the manipulated groups,
    • there was improved lateral flexion and rotation after manipulation,
    • the numerous case studies throughout the literature report the satisfaction of chiropractic patients with the outcome of treatments.
    Chiropractic Evaluation Study Task III Report of the Relevant Literature. MRI Project No. 8533-D. MacDonald MJ, Morton L. For Department of Defense, OCHAMPUS, Aurora, Colorado – 1986.
    ________________________________________THE ANNALS OF INTERNAL MEDICINE STUDY
    The Third Most Widely Read Medical Journal Finds Chiropractic A Winner In Low Back Pain

    The use, complications, and efficacy of spinal manipulation for low back pain was reviewed in the Annals of Internal Medicine, the third most widely read medical journal. The article concluded that spinal manipulation clearly helps patients with uncomplicated, acute low back pain.
    Spinal Manipulation for Low Back Pain. Shekelle P, et al. Annals of Internal Medicine – 1992;117:590-598.

    ________________________________________Chiropractic Safety Studies
    Chiropractic treatments are extremely safe for people of all ages. Unfortunately, some critics of chiropractic care have attempted to manipulate the public into thinking chiropractic treatments are dangerous. Nothing could be further from the truth. Chiropractic treatments are among some of the safest treatments used in the health care field.

    Read what Canadian researchers stated after performing the largest analysis of scientific literature on the most effective and cost effective treatments for low back pain:
    “Chiropractic manipulation is safer than medical management of low back pain. Chiropractic management is greatly superior to medical management in terms of scientific validity, safety, cost-effectiveness and patient satisfaction.”

    ________________________________________THE MANGA REPORT
    The Ontario Ministry of Health commissioned Manga Report represents the largest analysis of scientific literature on the most effective and cost effective treatments for low back pain. After reviewing all of the international evidence on the management of low back pain, lead investigator Pran Manga, Ph.D., found the treatments provided by Doctors of Chiropractic were exceptionally safe – much safer than for standard medical treatments of similar conditions.
    • “There is no clinical or case-control study that demonstrates or even implies that chiropractic spinal manipulation is unsafe in the treatment of low back pain. Some medical treatments are equally safe, but others are unsafe and generate iatrogenic (doctor-induced) complications for low back pain patients. Our reading of the literature suggests that chiropractic manipulation is safer than medical management of low back pain.”
    • “Indeed, several existing medical therapies of low back pain are generally contraindicated on the basis of the existing clinical trials. There is also some evidence in the literature to suggest that spinal manipulations are less safe and less effective when performed by nonchiropractic professionals”
    • “Chiropractic manipulation is safer than medical management of low back pain. Chiropractic management is greatly superior to medical management in terms of scientific validity, safety, cost-effectiveness and patient satisfaction.”
    The Effectiveness and Cost Effectiveness of Chiropractic Management of Low-Back Pain (The Manga Report). Pran Manga and Associates (1993) – University of Ottawa, Canad
    ________________________________________THE AGENCY ON HEALTH CARE POLICY AND RESEARCH STUDY
    On December 8, 1994, the Agency for Health Care Policy and Research (AHCPR) of the US Department of Health and Human Services released Clinical Practice Guidelines for the management of acute low back pain. Their guidelines were developed after extensive study of diagnostic and treatment methods for acute low back pain.

    The guidelines were created by the AHCPR panel to provide primary care clinicians with information and recommended strategies for the assessment and treatment of acute low back problems. The AHCPR panel was made up of 23 members consisting of medical doctors, chiropractic doctors, nurses, experts in spinal research, physical therapists, an occupational therapist, a psychologist, and a consumer representative.
    Their findings included:
    • The risk of serious complications from lumbar spinal manipulation is rare;
    • Conservative treatment such as spinal manipulation should be pursued in most cases before considering surgical intervention;
    • Prescription drugs such as oral steroids, antidepressant medications and colchicine are not recommended for acute low back problems.
    Acute Low Back Problems in Adults. Clinical Practice Guidelines. Bigos S, et al. Agency for Health Care Policy and Research Publication No. 950642 (1994) – U.S. Department of Health and Human Services.
    ________________________________________THE NEW ZEALAND COMMISSION REPORT
    The government of New Zealand published a 377 page report which assessed the efficacy and safety of chiropractic care. The report was a result of almost 2 years of conducted hearings from recognized health care experts.
    Their principal findings included:
    • “Chiropractors are the only health practitioners who are necessarily equipped by their education and training to carry out spinal manual therapy (spinal adjustments).”
    • “Chiropractors carry out spinal diagnosis and therapy at a sophisticated and refined level.”
    • “Spinal manual therapy in the hands of a registered chiropractor is safe.”
    • “The duration and training of a registered chiropractor are sufficient to enable him/her to determine whether there are contraindications to spinal manual therapy in a particular case, and whether that patient should have medical care instead of, or as well as, chiropractic care.”
    New Zealand Report. Hasselberg PD. Government Printer, Wellington – 1979.
    ________________________________________Government Studies on Chiropractic
    There have been a number of large investigations conducted on chiropractic by the American, Canadian, New Zealand, Swedish and Australian governments over the last few decades. In all cases, their findings have supported the effectiveness and efficacy of Chiropractic.

    Canada’s 1993 Manga Report strongly recommended chiropractic care over medical care for the treatment and management of most low-back conditions. The 1994 AHCPR Study from the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services suggested that chiropractic spinal manipulation was a conservative and safe treatment for many low-back conditions and should be utilized prior to any surgical interventions in most cases.

    Doctors of Chiropractic have now become integral to the development of governmental guidelines for the treatment of back conditions in Canada and the U.S. In addition, many hospitals are extending privileges to chiropractors and referrals between medical doctors and chiropractors are becoming increasingly common.
    ________________________________________THE AGENCY ON HEALTH CARE POLICY AND RESEARCH STUDY
    On December 8, 1994, the Agency for Health Care Policy and Research (AHCPR) of the US Department of Health and Human Services released Clinical Practice Guidelines for the management of acute low back pain. Their guidelines were developed after extensive study of diagnostic and treatment methods for acute low back pain.

    The guidelines were created by the AHCPR panel to provide primary care clinicians with information and recommended strategies for the assessment and treatment of acute low back problems. The AHCPR panel was made up of 23 members consisting of medical doctors, chiropractic doctors, nurses, experts in spinal research, physical therapists, an occupational therapist, a psychologist, and a consumer representative.

    The following conclusions were made in this landmark study:
    • Conservative treatment such as spinal manipulation should be pursued in most before cases considering surgical intervention;
    • Prescription drugs such as oral steroids, antidepressant medications and colchicine are not recommended for acute low back problems.
    Other interesting finds included:
    • The risk of serious complications from lumbar spinal manipulation is rare;
    • There is currently no evidence supporting the use of trigger point, ligamentous and facet injections, needle acupuncture or dry needling as treatment for acute back problems;
    • The panel found no evidence of benefit from the application of physical agents and modalities such as ice, heat, massage, traction, ultrasound, cutaneous laser treatment, transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulation (T.E.N.S.) and biofeedback techniques.
    Acute Low Back Problems in Adults. Clinical Practice Guidelines. Bigos S, et al. Agency for Health Care Policy and Research Publication No. 950642 (1994) – U.S. Department of Health and Human Services.
    ________________________________________THE MANGA REPORT
    As the largest existing analysis of scientific literature on low back pain, the 1993 Ontario Ministry of Health commissioned study drew international attention when it recommended the management of low back pain be moved from medical doctors to chiropractic doctors.

    Due to serious financial problems with the Canadian governments, the different types of treatments for low back conditions were evaluated in an effort to reduce and contain health care costs. Their findings showed chiropractic manipulation was the most cost effective and efficacious care for low back pain.

    The researchers also stated that studies on the prevalence and incidence of low back pain suggest that it is the leading cause of disability and morbidity in middle-aged persons, and is by far the most expensive source of workers’ compensation costs North America.

    The Canadian Government report concluded with the following findings:
    • On the evidence, particularly the most scientifically valid clinical studies, spinal manipulation applied by chiropractors is shown to be more effective than alternative treatments for low back pain. Many medical therapies are of questionable validity or are clearly inadequate;
    • There is no clinical or case-control study that demonstrates or even implies that chiropractic spinal manipulation is unsafe in the treatment of low back pain. Some medical treatments are equally safe, but others are unsafe and generate iatrogenic (doctor-induced) complications for low back pain patients. Our reading of the literature suggests that chiropractic manipulation is safer than medical management of low back pain;
    • Indeed, several existing medical therapies of low back pain are generally contraindicated on the basis of the existing clinical trials. There is also some evidence in the literature to suggest that spinal manipulations are less safe and less effective when performed by nonchiropractic professionals;
    • There is an overwhelming body of evidence indicating that chiropractic management of low back pain is more cost-effective than medical management;
    • There would be highly significant cost savings if more management of low back pain was transferred from physicians to chiropractors. Evidence from Canada and other countries suggests potential savings of many hundreds of millions annually;
    • Workers’ compensation studies report that injured workers with the same specific diagnosis of low back pain returned to work much sooner when treated by chiropractors than by medical physicians;
    • There is good empirical evidence that patients are very satisfied with chiropractic management of low back pain and considerably less satisfied with medical physician management;
    • The use of chiropractic has grown steadily over the years and chiropractors are now accepted as a legitimate healing profession by the public and an increasing number of medical physicians;
    • In our view, the following offers an overwhelming case in favor of much greater use of chiropractic services in the management of low back pain:
    o the effectiveness and cost effectiveness of chiropractic management of low back pain
    o the untested, questionable or harmful nature of many current medical therapies
    o the economic efficiency of chiropractic care for low back pain compared with medical care
    o the safety of chiropractic care
    o the higher satisfaction levels expressed by patients of chiropractors.

    The following recommendations were also included in the report:
    • There should be a shift in policy to encourage and prefer chiropractic services for most patients with low back pain;
    • Chiropractic services should be fully insured under the Ontario Health Insurance Plan;
    • Chiropractic services should be fully integrated into the health care system;
    • Chiropractors should be employed by tertiary hospitals in Ontario;
    • Hospital privileges should be extended to all chiropractors for the purposes of treatment of their own patients who have been hospitalized for other reasons, and for access to diagnostic facilities relevant to their scope of practice and patients’ needs;
    • Chiropractic should have access to all pertinent patient records and tests from hospitals, physicians, and other health care professionals upon the consent of their patients;
    • Since low back pain is of such significant concern to workers’ compensation, chiropractors should be engaged at a senior level by Workers’ Compensation Board to assess policy, procedures and treatment of workers with low back injuries;
    • A very good case can be made for making chiropractors the gatekeepers for management of low back pain in the workers’ compensation system in Ontario;
    • The government should make the requisite research funds and resources available for further clinical evaluations of chiropractic management of low back pain, and for further socioeconomic and policy research concerning the management of low back pain generally;
    • Chiropractic education in Ontario should be in the multidisciplinary atmosphere of a university with appropriate public finding;
    • Finally, the government should take all reasonable steps to actively encourage cooperation between providers, particularly the chiropractic, medical and physiotherapy professions.
    The Effectiveness and Cost Effectiveness of Chiropractic Management of Low-Back Pain (The Manga Report). Pran Manga and Associates (1993) – University of Ottawa, Canada.
    ________________________________________THE NEW ZEALAND COMMISSION REPORT
    This 377 page report, Chiropractic In New Zealand, was the most comprehensive and detailed independent examination of chiropractic ever undertaken at that time. The report withstood judicial hearings and extensive investigations by the Commission in New Zealand, the United States, Canada, England and Australia.

    According to the researchers,
    “We entered into our inquiry in early 1978. We had no clear idea what might emerge. We knew little about chiropractors. None of us had undergone any personal experience of chiropractic treatment. If we had any general impression of chiropractic it was probably that shared by many in the community: that chiropractic was an unscientific cult, not to be compared with orthodox medical or paramedical services. We might well have thought that chiropractors were people with perhaps a strong urge for healing, who had for some reason not been able to get into a field recognized by orthodox medicine and who had found an outlet outside the fringes of orthodoxy.”

    “But as we prepared ourselves for this inquiry it became apparent that much lay beneath the surface of these apparently simple terms of reference. In the first place it transpired that for many years chiropractors had been making strenuous efforts to gain recognition and acceptance as members of the established health care team. Secondly, it was clear that organized medicine in New Zealand was adamantly opposed to this on a variety of grounds which appeared logical and responsible. Thirdly, however, it became only too plain that the argument had been going on ever since chiropractic was developed as an individual discipline in the late 1800’s, and that in the years between then and now the debate had generated considerable more heat than light.”

    “By the end of the inquiry we found ourselves irresistibly and with complete unanimity drawn to the conclusion that modern chiropractic is a soundly based and valuable branch of the health care in a specialized area…”
    Their report includes the following findings:
    • Chiropractic is a branch of the healing arts specializing in the correction by spinal manual therapy of what chiropractors identify as biomechanical disorders of the spinal column – they carry out spinal diagnosis and therapy at a sophisticated and refined level;
    • Chiropractors are the only health practitioners who are necessarily equipped by their education and training to carry out spinal manual therapy;
    • General medical practitioners and physiotherapists have no adequate training in spinal manual therapy;
    • Spinal manual therapy in the hands of a registered chiropractor is safe;
    • The education and training of a registered chiropractor are sufficient to enable him/her to determine whether there are contraindications to spinal manual therapy in a particular case, and whether the patient should have medical care instead of or as well as chiropractic care;
    • Spinal manual therapy can be effective in relieving musculoskeletal symptoms, such as back pain and other symptoms known to respond to such therapy, such as migraine;
    • In a limited number of cases where there are organic and/or visceral symptoms, chiropractic treatment may provide relief, but this is unpredictable, and in such cases the patient should be under concurrent medical care if that is practicable;
    • In the public interest and in the interests of patients, there must be no impediment to full professional cooperation between chiropractors and medical practitioners;
    • It is wrong that the present law, or any medical ethical rules, should have the effect that a patient can receive spinal manual therapy which is subsidized by a health benefit only from those health professionals least qualified to deliver it;
    • The responsibility for spinal manual therapy training, because of its specialized nature, should lie with the chiropractic profession and part-time or vacation courses in spinal manual therapy for other health professionals should not be encouraged.
    New Zealand Report. Hasselberg PD. Government Printer, Wellington – 1979.
    ________________________________________THE SWEDEN REPORT
    Up until the late 1980’s, Sweden had no legislation regulating the practice of chiropractic, although there were approximately 100 chiropractors in Sweden educated in accredited chiropractic colleges. In 1987, a commission on Alternative Medicine in Sweden conducted a detailed investigation of chiropractic education. They had the scientific literature assessed by university medical faculty and additionally commissioned a demographic survey by Statistics Sweden. Subsequent to the report, the Swedish government passed legislation recognizing and regulating the chiropractic profession in Sweden. Then, together with the governments from Denmark, Finland and Norway, it established a school of chiropractic at the University of Odense in Denmark to provide a regional chiropractic college for students from those countries.

    The reports findings included:
    • Doctors of chiropractic should become registered practitioners and be brought within the national insurance system in Sweden;
    • Training for Doctors of Chiropractic follows a 4-5 year course of university level training and was found to be the equivalent to Swedish medical training – chiropractors have “competence in differential diagnosis” and should be regulated on a primary care basis”;
    • “Measures to improve cooperation between chiropractors, registered medical practitioners and physiotherapists are vital” in the public interest. Ref 11 Supra.
    ________________________________________THE AUSTRALIAN REPORT
    In July of 1984 the Australian Federal Minister for Health asked their Medicare Benefits Review Committee to “consider requests for extending the scope of Medicare (government-funded health care) arrangements to provide benefits for certain paramedical services” – which included chiropractic services.

    The Committee recommended funding for chiropractic in hospitals and other public institutions, and stated:
    • “We are aware of the very considerable organizational and professional obstacles… orthodox practitioners and, indeed, some chiropractors may initially find the experience an uneasy one, but we consider the differences that currently exist to be unreasonable and efforts should be made to bridge the gap.”
    • “… the continuing schism between the two professions does little to help improve the health of the many Australians who might benefit from a joint chiropractic/medical approach to their problems.”
    Second Report Medicare Benefits Review Committee. Thompson CJ. Commonwealth Government Printer, Canberra, Australia, Chapter 10 (Chiropractic) – June 1986.

    ________________________________________Patient Satisfaction Studies

    Patient satisfaction studies have consistently shown that patients are extremely satisfied with the care they receive from chiropractors and far less satisfied with the care they receive from medical practitioners.
    ________________________________________THE GALLUP STUDY
    In 1991 the Gallup Organization performed a nationwide demographic study to determine the attitudes, opinions, and behaviors of both users and nonusers of chiropractic services. Their findings?

    Overall, 90% felt that chiropractic health care was effective: more than 80% were satisfied with the treatment they received; nearly 75% felt that most of their expectations were met during the last visit or series of visits; 68% said they would likely see a doctor of chiropractic again for treatment of a similar condition, and 50% would likely be willing to see a doctor of chiropractic for some other problem chiropractors treat. Nearly 80% of the chiropractic users felt that the cost of chiropractic treatment was reasonable.
    Demographic Characteristics of Users of Chiropractic Services. The Gallup Organization, Princeton, New Jersey – 1991.
    ________________________________________THE HARRIS POLL
    According to this 1994 Harris Poll, patients were more satisfied with chiropractic care than care from medical doctors and other health care professionals.

    Those who sought care from a chiropractor were more likely to be very satisfied with their care than those who visited any other practitioner. (Choices were between Chiropractic Doctors, Medical Doctors, Physical Therapists, or Osteopathic Doctors) Of those who have seen both types of practitioner, the majority were more likely to be satisfied with the care of the chiropractor than with that of the medical doctor.
    1994 Harris Poll.
    ________________________________________Patient Evaluations of Care from Family Physicians and Chiropractors
    Findings from this study indicate that patients under chiropractic care had 3 times the satisfaction rate as did patients under the care of Family Physicians. In addition, the patient’s perception of the doctor’s confidence in diagnosing and treating low back pain was almost 3 times higher in patients receiving chiropractic care compared with those receiving care from family physicians.
    Patient Evaluations of Care from Family Physicians and Chiropractors. Cherkin, D., MacCornack, F. Western Journal of Medicine – 1989;150:351-355.
    ________________________________________THE MANGA REPORT
    As the largest existing analysis of scientific literature on low back pain, the 1993 Ontario Ministry of Health commissioned study drew international attention when it recommended the management of low back pain be moved from medical doctors to chiropractic doctors.

    Due to serious financial problems with the Canadian governments, the different types of treatments for low back conditions were evaluated in an effort to reduce and contain health care costs. Their findings showed chiropractic manipulation was the most cost effective and efficacious care for low back pain.

    According to lead investigator Pran Manga, Ph.D., “There is good empirical evidence that patients are very satisfied with chiropractic management of low back pain and considerably less satisfied with medical physician management.”
    The Effectiveness and Cost Effectiveness of Chiropractic Management of Low-Back Pain. Pran Manga and Associates. University of Ottawa, Canada – 1993.

    ________________________________________Work Comp & Return-To-Work Studies
    A number of workers’ compensation studies have shown chiropractic care to be superior to medical care in the treatment of on the job back injuries. Chiropractors have been able to get their patients out of pain and back to work faster and with lower treatment costs.
    ________________________________________THE UTAH STUDY – fewer costs and days lost
    This 1988 Utah workers’ compensation board study found a tenfold savings for mean compensation costs in back-related injuries treated by chiropractors as compared with medical doctors ($68.38 vs. $668.39). To ensure accurate and true results, only those back-related injuries with the same diagnostic codes were compared between the two treatment groups. Also, the medical treatments assessed were limited to nonsurgical medical treatments only.
    Cost per Case Comparison of Back Injury Claims of Chiropractic versus medical Management for Conditions with Identical Diagnostic Codes. Jarvis KB, et al. Journal of Occupational Medicine – 1991;33:847-52.
    ________________________________________THE FLORIDA STUDY – shorter disability/lower costs/lower hospitalization rates
    This large State of Florida study examined 10,652 patients who sustained back-related injuries on the job. Their findings revealed that individuals who received chiropractic care compared with standard medical care for similar diagnoses experienced had a (i) 51.3 percent shorter temporary total disability duration (ii) lower treatment cost by 58.8 percent ($558 vs. $1,100 per case) (iii) 20.3 percent hospitalization rate in the chiropractic care group vs. 52.2 percent rate in the medical care group.
    An Analysis of Florida Workers’ Compensation Medical Claims for Back Related Injuries. Wolk S. Foundation for Chiropractic Education and Research, Arlington, VA. – 1988.
    ________________________________________THE CALIFORNIA STUDY – chiropractic patients get back to work sooner
    In this study, Richard Wolf, M.D. followed 500 individuals sent for chiropractic treatments and 500 individuals sent to medical doctors for treatment. Those who received chiropractic treatments returned to work in an average of 15.6 days vs. 32 days in those who received treatments from medical doctors.
    Industrial Back Injury. Wolf CR. International Review of Chiropractic – 1974;26:6-7.
    ________________________________________THE OREGON STUDY- chiropractic gets individuals back to work, and fast!
    This Oregon study found that individuals with workers’ compensation claims returned to work significantly faster under chiropractic care compared with medical care. In fact, under chiropractic care 82% were able to return to work after one week compared with only 41% in those who received medical care.
    A Study of Time Loss Back Claims. Portland, OR. Workers’ Compensation Board, State of Oregon, March 1971.
    ________________________________________THE AUSTRALIAN STUDY- cost & pain-relief effective with a lower chronicity rate
    In this Australian study, 1,996 workers’ compensation cases were evaluated in patients who experienced work-related mechanical low back pain. It was found that those individuals who received chiropractic care for their back pain returned to work 4 times faster (6.26 days vs. 25.56 days) and had treatment that cost 4 times less ($392 vs. $1,569) than those who received treatments from medical doctors. Also, in those patients who received chiropractic care there was a significantly lower incidence of progression to a chronic low back pain status.
    Mechanical Low-Back Pain: A Comparison of Medical and Chiropractic Management Within the Victorian Work Care Scheme. Ebrall, PS. Chiropractic Journal of Australia – 1992;22:47-53.
    ________________________________________THE MANGA REPORT – back to work… and faster
    According to this Canadian government commissioned study,
    “…injured workers … diagnosed with low-back pain returned to work much sooner when treated by chiropractors than by physicians.”
    The Effectiveness and Cost Effectiveness of Chiropractic Management of Low-Back Pain (The Manga Report). Pran Manga and Associates (1993) – University of Ottawa, Canada.

    _______________________________________

    • @L
       
      You should have a look at the definition of “argumentum ad populum”. It might be good for your promo-website but if you had been around here a bit earlier you might have noted that it does not impress on this crowd at all.
      Referring to chiropractic popularity surveys is even less impressive. On the contrary it proves a lack of understanding of what is evidence and what is not.

      Your dump of references on LBP treatment efficacy is not telling us anything new either.
      We all know that Chiropractors can be helpful in getting some LBP sufferers out of bed and back to work. But so can many doctors and physiotherapists. The methods are easy to learn and should be encouraged in primary care. No knowledge of subluxation adjustments and other Palmerian skills is required there.
      Chiropractors are no miracle makers in this context. My colleagues at the BMT have many stories of patients being stretchered in after failed attempts by the chiros. Alas, no one has made a proper study of failed chiropractic that I know of. These patients are not prone to return to the chiropractor and demand their money back, so the chiropractor remains happy in his delusion of therapeutic grandeur as it is only the lucky ones who come back for more the next time they feel a little stiff. How about showing us some chiropractic audit?
      That chiros can help some LBP’s and this has be demonstrated in variously biased studies has nothing to do with the nonsense chiropractors teach and practice when it comes to all kinds of other ailments based on the long disproven theories of subluxation and their “adjustments”. The problem with chiropractors is not lack of proof of their ability to treat some LBP’s, which seems to be their only success. It is all the other theatrical make-believe without any anatomic, pathologic or other scientific support and what is more, without any support in proper research. In particular the expansion of their theatrical therapies into pediatric and even neonatal care.

    • @L

      I’m sure it would have been perfectly adequate if you had just linked to one of the many chiro websites (such as this one) that has text identical to the over 8,000 words you chose to dump here.

  • I’ve seen chiros off and on since 1990…starting when I was 17. What always struck me odd is that no two are alike. The good ones don’t hassle you, don’t nickle and dime you, and don’t use gimmicky equipment. Still, I believe there is some merit to some aspects of chiropractic services. Most recently, a well known elitist medical facility with the name of a condiment charged me $2000 while ignoring my pain, reversing my current diagnosis of a real disease, and trying to tell me the pain was all in my head (Fibro they wanted to treat with antidepressants….that’s science?). The condiment facility didn’t do 1 x-ray. So, a friend recommended her chiro for my pain…real or imagined, it was far cheaper than the condiment quacks. After some physical assessments he took a single x-ray and oh, my goodness, I didn’t need him to tell me what I was looking at. My lower back was messed up. So, I saw him for a few weeks and he worked it back into place. And, yes, before I sound like a chiropractic apologist, he used gimmicky equipment with gimmicky excuses…after he adjusted me. The sad thing is that no one can be trusted these days. Not expensive condiment facilities or hometown chiropractors. Medicine is largely a gambit. As my mom was fond of saying, doctors aren’t experts, that’s why it’s called a practice. So many stories I could tell whether it be chiros or MDs, etc. But I appreciate the author’s honesty. To those chiropractors who are insulted, disturbed, etc. by his presentation of information, don’t be bitter, be better. Don’t abuse your patient’s trust.

    • GiGi said:

      he took a single x-ray and oh, my goodness, I didn’t need him to tell me what I was looking at. My lower back was messed up.

      I find that fascinating. A lot of people would never spot some closed fractures on an xray. What was it that made you think what you saw was ‘messed up’ before the chiro told you?

    • As my mom was fond of saying, doctors aren’t experts, that’s why it’s called a practice.

      The altie world is full of these cutesie sayings, I used to say this when I believed in alternative medicine. Now that I’ve come to my senses, I realize that at least real doctors have a sound base of knowledge and experience behind their practice. Alternative medical practitioners do what I would laughingly call “practice”: Using unproven, questionable, and often dangerous treatments while spouting all kinds of outdated/magical theories about the way the body works. They openly talk about experimenting on family members, friends, and pets even while they’re learning their trade. Medical ethics (and the law!) prevents doctors from doing that before they’re qualified.

    • Gigi–OMG, I just realized you’re talking about treatment at Mayo! Are you kidding me, you’re taking the advice of a chiropractor over the experts at arguably the best-respected clinic in the U.S.???!!!! [faint]

  • @GiGi

    Fibro they wanted to treat with antidepressants….that’s science?

     
    Yes that’s science.
    Antidepressant medications are often effective for the symptoms of fibromyalgia (FM). So is exercise and weight reduction. I bet the condiment-clinician also suggested life-style changes including serious weight loss, right?

    A good clinician, like they generally have at the condiment-clinics do not need to take X-ray images to tell that a grown up has degenerative changes in their vertebral column. We all do. All the more if you are overweight. (Note that I am not saying you are, but it is very likely given your nationality, age and FM diagnosis)
    MD’s look and listen for certain symptoms and signs before adding the extra cost and risk of radiation. A chiropractor takes X-Rays foremost to impress on the client. Their X-ray images, which always involve a lot of radiation, also on radiation-sensitive parts, are usually of low technical quality and not fit for any real diagnostics. Mine were 🙁
    I bet it was the chiro himself who pointed out to you the inevitable degenerative changes and that the condiment-clinic omitted to take X-rays, right? He would. It’s part of his training. It induces confidence in his ministrations and is good for business (and it induces repulsion towards that other clinic that he does not want you to trust). They call that “practice building techniques” and there are courses in that for chiropractors who need to boost their business.
    My friend who is a private radiologist often gets people coming from chiropractors, scared sh-less because a chiro thought he saw something on the foggy, crooked images that the patients usually brings with them. She says they cannot even do proper measurements on the spine, that’s how foggy and poorly lined-up these images often are.
     
    Fibromyalgia is very popular with alternative therapists af all kinds because firstly, the symptoms periodically wax and wane by themselves. That’s normal for this condition. The patients usually seek help at the times when they are at their worst so really all the chiro has to do is entertain you with his repeated manipulations (for which you pay) while the symptoms recede by themselves, which usually takes several weeks. That’s what happened in your case, didn’t it? He will also, if he is any good, tell you to loose a few pounds while you’re at it and exercise more, because that always helps. But he will make sure to tell you in such a way that he does not risk you being offended by the suggestion. That is one of the traps many MD’s fall into if not careful when giving advice. Even at condiment-clinics. Another friend is a top-notch oncologist at one of them. A God-damn good one. But his patients often give him poor points on the personal scale because he is forthright and honest. A bit like Dr. House he is 🙂
    Secondly, the symptoms of FM are very dependent on stress, frustration and anxiety. That is why there is a lot of advice for coping with these factors in the condiment-clinic’s patient advisory. That is also why alternative therapists always are so nice, loving and forthcoming. They really make you feel at ease, take their time and use all kinds of reassuring and soothing techniques to make you less stressed, less frustrated and less anxious. At least for a while. They always give you a diagnosis (the degenerative changes in your back) and a remedy of their liking (the spinal “adjustments”). Have you ever met a person who did not get a diagnosis and a course of treatments at a chiro’s? I haven’t and nobody í know has.
    If he is any good at his job you will come back for more when the effects of his ministrations, the placebo, if you like, has worn off or the next time the FM or the lumbago or whatever, acts up.
    That is all they have to offer, the famed placebo-effect, which never lasts for very long. It will need refills often, which is good for business, but sometimes hinders or disturbs real diagnosis and therapy and may lead to disaster in rare cases.
    The problem is that good MD’s are usually so busy that they cannot personally give you TLC in large enough doses to ensure your confidence. Maybe that is why so many big US clinics are hiring hand-wavers and potion-peddlers, to entertain and amuse the patients on the side?

    • Björn, that’s a great explanation of how all that works. I’d like to expand on the observation that good doctors don’t do tests that aren’t warranted. For several years my sister went to a lot of doctors, with a lot of emergency room visits, for abdominal pain. A few procedures were done, but her pain persisted. One of those visits was at the aforementioned condiment clinic. They couldn’t find anything wrong, not sure what they recommended. After several more rounds of visits to her local doctors/hospitals, she tried to get in at the condiment clinic again for another diagnosis. They turned her down, saying they didn’t want to waste her time and money, since they saw no evidence that would lead them to a different conclusion. (Eventually she got someone to diagnose a back problem; instead of going to a chiro, she’s at least doing some PT and other basic lifestyle changes that the condiment clinic probably also suggested.)

      When a person is told that their illness is at least partially psychosomatic, I don’t think it’s demeaning (aka, “all in your head”). It just makes sense that the brain and body interact in weird ways when stressed. At the time my sister went through her health crisis, her life was going through radical changes after a divorce. She was on her last nerve in a lot of ways.

      • LinnieMae, you’re dead right that a suggestion of psychosomatic illness is not demeaning. As I’ve pointed out in other comments, weeping when upset, blushing, goosebumps, sexual arousal and other everyday reactions are all psychosomatic. They don’t indicate mental illness; it’s just the way the body works.

  • Chiropractors are like mechanics. So your brakes squeak and you take it to a shop. The mechanic tells you that you need new rotors, pads, brake lines, alignment and it will cost you $1500. You don’t have insurance for that so you go to another mechanic. He says you must have driven in some water and left the car sit for a couple days and the rotors built up a little rust which will wear off in a couple days and that’s causing the squeak. Everything else is fine and he charges $50 for the diagnostic work. One is a mechanic and the other a con artist.

    I have gone to a chiropractor a number of times. I had injured my back. I went in barely able to walk and left feeling much better. He wanted me to come back in 2 days which I did. When I returned I was better than the 1st time but not as well as I felt when I left after the first visit. After the 2nd visit I left feeling much better. This went on for about 1 1/2 weeks. Then he told me not to come back again unless I had pain. I never went back.

    In a different city I had back pain. I went in, had to watch a movie about all the benefits of chiropractic care, read articles on the benefits of treatment and about the spine and how it affects everything except the stock market, stand on 2 scales that shows one side is heavier than the other, had multiple x-rays, he set me up for a series of treatments and a maint. program where I was to continue to receive treatment over a long period of time. I never went back. I get better on my own.

    Summary – Some are doctors that successfully treat back pain and others are con artists that should be in jail. They are a disgrace to the profession. A disgrace to the legit ones.

  • I went to school with Preston Long. Same class for all the years and same education. Preston never experienced chiropractic till he went to school. Preston, as I remember him telling me, was an orthopedic assistant and saw way too much blood and dissatisfaction from the surgeries. He added he heard chiropractic could be a good source of money making for a career, even though he did not ever try it. I remember his back would go out and he would stand and lean against the wall, afraid to get adjusted. Finally he did and ranted and raved at his positive response. At one time he seemed inspired to address the correction to the spine, whether that was through realigning, restoring motion or whatever he found and related to in our experiences. Our class adviser was an MD, cardiologist, studying and researching why chiropractic lowered blood pressures. I have many wonderful results with my patients, some the so-called miracles and some from the medical failures, just like chiropractic is not the answer for every condition. Our classmates knew of Preston and his separate approach and now the reflection on a career I have loved and improved the lives of many. I guess Preston Long is still trying to make a buck from chiropractic. I came from a science background as did many classmates. Just as the surgeon has to have hands and skills, so does the chiropractor. Those that don’t either teach, promote or degrade it. That simple. I have too many medical background patients to even indicate the lack of efficacy of what I practice. All the healthcare trades have the snake oil, leeches and back cracker rhetoric. Instead of focusing on the good, effective component and properly promoting what one does some choose to spit the bile of misunderstanding.

    • It is interesting that Preston Long lists Consumer Reports as a source to denounce Chiropractic. He must not be aware of the questionaire concerning back pain treament submitted by 14,000 of Consumer Reports subscribers. It addressed all forms of medical and non medical treatment. Chiropractic came in at #1. It is obvious his writings are moronic, to say the least. If you read Physical Therapy literature, they advocate spinal manipulation for many of the same conditions that are treated by chiropractors. The medical community is a diminishing minority primarily responsible for the stigma placed on chiropractic. The true story is told in ‘Wilk vs. AMA’ which was a federal lawsuit where Chiropractic prevailed over a conspiracy by medical doctors to ruin the Chiropractic profession. Today, most world class atheletes and professional sports teams use chiropractors. It has taken many years to overcome the damage inflicted by the AMA. What has prevailed is the assesment by the public that Chiropractic is an honest and worthy profession and medical personel that make statements to the contrary are liars.

      • @James,
        Argument from Popularity, that is, completely worthless.

        Have you not ever learnt anything about logical fallacies? It might stop you posting such specious nonsense.

  • Here is my experience over the last 5 years of off and on,( more off than on because it never felt “right”) chirocraptic care. (misspelled that on purpose) Okay so we were in a car accident on the interstate and got a pretty bad but not horrible whiplash accident. After awhile i noticed symptoms of poping and grinding sound in my neck, had very frequent headaches, and facial numbness.
    Im not gonna sit here and trash chiros because ive been there done that so many times. I just want to say that i am no better today than i was back then. In fact, it just traded one condition for another. Now the muscles in my neck are so tight i can barely turn my head. Forget driving for long periods of time. My head feels like it is turning one way and then another. This i believe, is from muscles getting torn in my neck from adjustments. So i have to take muscle relaxants and sedatives every day or it is unbearable. I honestly dont think that people should be doing this. Certainly not for a lifetime. I am the only one to do manual adjustments, they used the activator on my wife and kids (ofc to make $$$) but i cannot sit here and say they are good either, it just treated one unbearable condition for another, heck i feel WORSE today than 5 years ago. Don’t go to chiropractors people. I told my wife’s friend who had been seeing one the same thing. In my opinion from reading online for years, nobody really knows what the truth is, and its very dangerous, if nothing else the torn muscles side effect if very uncomfortable. I cant do daily activities like i use to, and i think chiros are to blame.

    • @matt1983
      It is always helpful to have negative anecdotes to contrast with the many positive ones that turn up on this blog. Neither provides data or evidence, but they make me wonder about what motivates people to post ‘reviews’. If you buy consumer items, such as TVs or holidays, and you have a bad experience with your purchase, I suspect you are more likely than not to want to express your disappointment somewhere. Which is why reviews on websites such as Amazon and Trip Advisor are probably disproportionately enriched with unsatisfied customers.
       
      The opposite seems to apply with Big Snakeoil. People who experience a perceived improvement in their condition after a visit to a chiropractor or swallowing something homeopathic seem ready to sing their praises from the rooftops. By contrast, those who have no improvement or, like Matt, negative experiences at the hands of altmed seem mainly to keep quiet about it. Is the difference because a person (the practitioner) is involved, and we all share an instinctive reluctance to bad-mouth people publicly? Just wondering.

    • I find putting 20 lb weights in either hand and stretching and doing shoulder rolls help. Yoga and massage and chiropractic care also help. I just bought a headstand stand which helps somewhat if I do it just twice a day for a minute or two. I also have come to realize that I need to strengthen my core. The accident was the problem and then my resultant poor computer posture made it much worse over the years since then. Hope you feel better.

  • Sounds like a very muddled topic. Is chiropractic care to be completely dismissed in its role in being able to help people? OR is is the conclusion that there are some things chiropractic care can help with and other things it can’t, despite the claims of some of its practitioners.
    Perhaps this is due to the entirety of the system in which the medical industry is so costly that many of its practitioners result to charging patients for things not necessary to their needs so that these students, who one day become “dr’s”, can repay their loan debt. No doubt there is malpractice in almost all medical fields, I don’t think just chiropractors the only ones guilty of over charging their patients.
    Is the conclusion then that chiropractor care can help with some problems but perhaps not to the extent in which it claims. Are there no honest chiropractors out there that say hey this may help a little but we need to take a bigger approach to this problem? And if so why is there not an approach which deals with nutrition, physical therapy, massage, training, chiropractic as a whole? Or is there? It seems there are too many specialities in the filed of health and nobody is really talking with each other to see how one can work with one another to solve the problem. The human body is so complex and our individualized approached to medicine and fixing problems is just so segmented I don’t think we are yet at the point of connecting the dots. And in our current system if there was somebody able to get all the acronyms after their name to actually be able to attack a problem from a truly educated and well rounded point of view, they would be so in debt that they need to charge an unpayable amount just to start paying of their student debt?
    Chiropractor care can help with some alignment issues…is it going to cure cancer? probably not, and nobody should think it could

    • @Markk,
      Is there any point to your post?

      Apart from most of your questions which can be answered “no”, this question deserves a response, “Chiropractor care can help with some alignment issues”; what are “alignment issues”? Is that the same as the mythical subluxation?

    • Markk said:

      …is [chiropractic] going to cure cancer? probably not, and nobody should think it could

      Why not?

  • I read an interesting article in The American Chiropractor. Found an accessible website with some of the info.

    https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-does-chiropractic-adjustment-work-dr-brian-garrett

    Remarking to the article using scientific literature to reference pathways and neuroanatomy and noting the chiropractic adjustment creating healthy changes in my own office. These healthy changes were in systemic function that altered lymphoma and white blood cell numbers returning to normal ranges and heart arrhythmia stopping, but would return until the patient went through a series of adjustments. (yes, I’m a chiropractor that requests more than one or two adjustments to create a change) and to having two children’s hearing return. This was performed by chiropractic adjustments. Do I cure all lymphomas, deafness and cardio issues? Heck no. But the patient is entitled to a better functioning nervous system.

    • @Rick
      This article just restates the central subluxation nonsense of chiropractic and cherry-picks a few positive conclusions from publications without any attempt to assess their quality. Do you really think this amounts to evidence of anything at all? Do you seriously not have the slightest comprehension of how good science works? The article is a testament to ignorance of scholarship.

      • Easy to discount. Hard to prove both ways. Results with a hypothesis, theory of working order with consistent results, whether a few percentage points above a placebo (as in many medications allowed on the market). Standard response you have to science that one doesn’t agree with in their point of view. Still two hundred years from getting close to answers. The hypothesis and theory, with conceived efforts to explanation. I’ll take the working order. Best method o have had for health restoration personally as well as delivering a health care method. The anger I feel towards this profession astounds me. Of course there are many that feel that way with many health care delivery systems. No easy answers. I love it.

        • @FrankO,
          I must take issue with your disrespect of Dr Walford.

          Behind the rambling prose of his posts, with seemingly no sense to them, lies a genius. Dr Walford has emulated the feats of the head of his religion, D.D. Palmer, by curing deafness! Not only that, but he cured this same person of ear infections through the use of chiropractic. (He lists this as one of his “published” articles. Hey, it isn’t the BMJ, but close.)
          http://www.walfordchiropractic.com/chicken-soup-for-the-chiropractic-soul

          His expertise isn’t limited to that area either. He also cures fibromyalgia through the treatment of subluxations. Dr Walford doesn’t need your science; he just knows.

  • I got whiplash in 1993. Both massage and chiropractic treatments help. So do stretching, and exercise. I don’t care about other’s opinions if it alleviates my pain and allows me to get back to work.

    • “I don’t care about other’s opinions if it alleviates my pain and allows me to get back to work.”

      Do you want doctors to conduct themselves the same way? Should they just not care about “other’s opinions”, particularly Cochrane, and do what they want?

      Dorrie, we live in a relativist time but you take it to another level.

  • @Frank Collins
    I notice that the cover of the book in which this fabulous case history is published bears the subtitle “Stories of Inspiration, Healing, Laughter and a Lifetime of Wellness”. I think Dr. Walford’s article qualifies for the third of these.

    Sorry: this should have appeared as a response below your comment.

  • True/False in One Chiropractors Opinion
    1. Chiropractic theory and practice are not based on the body of knowledge related to health, disease, and health care that has been widely accepted by the scientific community.
    a. True. That is why people call it Alternative. No surprise here.
    2. Many chiropractors promise too much.
    a. True. And some undersell it. It is very difficult to anticipate how it will affect everyone.
    3. Our education is vastly inferior to that of medical doctors.
    a. True. We study and focus on the problems that commonly occur in our office. We are trained in recognizing when medical intervention is necessary for referrals. In my opinion, we are over trained. I would like to see our program condensed similar to the Physician Assistant and Nurse Practitioner programs. They do Primary care as well as the Medical Doctors (better in my opinion) and have a master’s level education.
    4. Our legitimate scope is actually very narrow.
    a. True. But this is largely due to the Chiropractic profession actively seeking to keep it this way. The Chiropractic profession has been fighting to keep our scope to exclude drugs and surgery although this is where our profession seems to be headed.
    5. Very little of what chiropractors do has been studied.
    a. True. We are a relatively young profession with very little funding for research. Most of our profession has been driven by what we see in clinical practice. The profession is focused on doing research and will adapt with what is found through these efforts.
    6. Unless your diagnosis is obvious, it’s best to get diagnosed elsewhere.
    a. True. The profession of Chiropractic tends to focus on our patients as a whole. Part of this concept is that specific diagnosis and/or symptoms do not matter to us as much as improving the entire body from a biomechanical, neurological, and nutritional standpoint.
    7. We offer lots of unnecessary services.
    a. True. The entire point of going to a Chiropractor is to help patients prevent medically necessary services. Wellness and Prevention are our main focus.
    8. “Cracking” of the spine doesn’t mean much.
    a. True. The crack noise simply implies that a “grade 5 manipulation” was achieved. Chiropractors generally prefer this style of manipulation/adjustment although there are many techniques that adjust without causing a crack noise to occur. As long as joint mobility is restored to a fixated/subluxated vertebra, the Chiropractor does not focus on the noise a joint makes during a visit.
    9. If the first few visits don’t help you, more treatment probably won’t help.
    a. True. Most patients notice improvement relatively quickly with Chiropractic care, if Chiropractic care is going to help them. Some acute injuries however do take more time to see results depending on the level of injury and phase of healing the patient is in. These patients are often being co-managed with other providers as well.
    10. We take too many x-rays.
    a. False. Some of us take no xrays unless medically necessary. Some of us take xrays as dictated by our chosen technique, which use the xrays for Chiropractic analysis and not for medical purposes.
    b. True. There are probably unethical offices also taking xrays for the sole purpose of getting more money from an insurance company.
    11. Research on spinal manipulation does not reflect what takes place in most chiropractic offices.
    a. True. Chiropractors value research, but understand that researching spinal manipulation in a way that makes sense to how we practice is very difficult. We typically value what we see in clinical practice over research, unless the research was done very well and has no obvious bias for or against our profession.
    12. Neck manipulation is potentially dangerous.
    a. True. Given the anatomy of the Vertebral artery and the Cervical spine, theoretically cervical manipulation could cause artery injury or release an already present clot to cause a stroke in patients. Although this is not yet proven, Chiropractic schools have taken this recent public/medical fear into consideration when teaching manipulation/adjusting techniques in order to ensure that we are not harming the public.
    13. Most chiropractors don’t know much about nutrition.
    a. False. Chiropractors do take nutrition courses in school now. Nutrition is also part of our national board exams. This may have been different in the past. Many of us then continue to take additional courses after graduation if we intend on making nutrition a large part of our practice. We often use the nutrition companies to help us with questions just like medical professionals who ask pharmacists questions they have regarding specific medications. Many of the trusted nutrition companies have research and training to help Chiropractors give accurate advice if they are new to selling or promoting nutrition in their office.
    14. Chiropractors who sell vitamins charge much more than it costs them.
    a. False. We typically follow what the company we buy from recommends as standard. The patients will typically pay the same price we charge by going directly to the manufacturer. We buy wholesale and sell retail. This is how businesses generally operate.
    15. Chiropractors have no business treating young children.
    a. False. Chiropractors without pediatric specialties should not replace a child’s pediatrician, but adjusting children is easier than adults. A child or baby adjustment can typically be accomplished simply through the motioning of the patient’s spine. Using very gentle techniques that the patients often do not even notice is very typical with child and baby adjusting.
    16. The fact that patients swear by us does not mean we are actually helping them.
    a. True. Correlation does not equal causation. Speaking as a patient, I am not sure if my “wellness” adjustments are medically improving my musculoskeletal or neurological system in any measurable way. What I do know is that I feel relaxed and more comfortable after I get adjusted. I enjoy the process and the feeling afterwards that seems to last days or weeks for me. If the fact that going to a Chiropractor is enjoyable and leaves patients feeling as if they received a benefit regardless of measurable data being present as proof is bad, then get me a Harley and Tattoo my face, because I like the bad stuff.
    17. Insurance companies don’t want to pay for chiropractic care.
    a. True. Insurance companies don’t want to pay for anything.
    18. Lots of chiropractors do really strange things.
    a. Maybe. I have no personal experience with some of these strange things talked about. I would run.
    19. Don’t expect our licensing boards to protect you.
    a. True. The term Chiropractic Subluxation was used in the beginning of our profession as a way to describe what it was we were trying to correct in the spine. It was originally believed that a bone slightly out of position but not dislocated was to blame for causing nerve pinching. The term has evolved in our profession to what we commonly call the VSC or Vertebral Subluxation Complex. This VSC is commonly used instead of simply subluxation to convey the idea that what Chiropractors are trying to correct in the spine is much more complex than originally believed.
    i. A more medical explanation could be that Chiropractors are attempting to restore mobility to an otherwise mobility restricted section of the spine that could span one or multiple spinal segments. This restricted mobility once corrected will likely cause better spinal mobility, local muscular relaxation, and may reduce symptoms if present. The increased mobility or return to more normal mobility of a spinal segment or multiple spinal segments can also be described as reducing a Vertebral Subluxation Complex. Using the term Subluxation reduction or removal is simply easier and everyone generally knows what you are talking about in our profession when you use this term.
    20. The media rarely look at what we do wrong.
    a. True. The media probably have more exciting stories to run than how diverse Chiropractors continue to be and are hard to generally define. That sounds like a pretty boring story. Good thing this guy isn’t a journalist.
    b. Chiropractors like to argue as to which theories or technique is best. Defining standards within our profession will most likely take time, money, and some kind of collaboration on our end. I don’t see this happening for a long time. The good news though is that many different styles of Chiropractic will most likely mean that it will be easier for people to find a Chiropractor or Style that fits them better than having just one type of Chiropractor out there.

    Hope this helped understand our profession a little and hopefully we will continue to improve on what we currently have to better serve the public.

    • @Jeremy,
      So, after all that, chiros are little more than wannabe physios with a grandiose moniker?

      “Chiropractors without pediatric specialties should not replace a child’s pediatrician, but adjusting children is easier than adults. A child or baby adjustment can typically be accomplished simply through the motioning of the patient’s spine. Using very gentle techniques that the patients often do not even notice is very typical with child and baby adjusting.”

      This made me laugh, for the wrong reasons. Do you seriously believe you can detect and “adjust” a baby’s spine? If so, you are as deluded as every other chiropractor who has bought into the whole D.D. Palmer swindle.

      • @ Jeremy

        Re “12. Neck manipulation is potentially dangerous.
        a. True. Given the anatomy of the Vertebral artery and the Cervical spine, theoretically cervical manipulation could cause artery injury or release an already present clot to cause a stroke in patients. Although this is not yet proven, Chiropractic schools have taken this recent public/medical fear into consideration when teaching manipulation/adjusting techniques in order to ensure that we are not harming the public.”

        Shouldn’t “in order to ensure” be “in the hope that” (we are not harming the public)? You should know that chiropractors have no reliable screening procedures available to them when choosing to perform neck manipulations.

        • I agree with you Blue Wode.

          You could say “in hopes that” if you like. Chiropractors do not think the cervical manipulation is harming the vertebral artery or causing strokes to occur. We do not see this as a real worry in our office, but we see this as a simple fear held by a minority in the medical, legal, and possibly public community. When Hippocrates used spinal manipulation for his patients, he was cautious due to the fact that the soul resided in the spine. Messing with the spine was potentially messing with the soul. I fear I am causing damage to the Vertebral Artery about as much as I fear I am messing with people’s soul. If research proves otherwise, then I will of course adapt and change what I do to protect patients. If I am messing with people’s soul however, I will continue. Maybe I could become like Dr. Strange if I continue my soul manipulation practices.

          Here is something else to feed the skeptics arsenal of anti-Chiropractic ranting. The Abdominal Aorta can become enlarged in some patients causing lower back pain. If a rough adjustment is given to these patients, it is theoretically deadly. If the Abdominal Aortic Aneurysm (AAA) bursts, the patient can internally bleed to death. Have fun with this information.

          There was a test in the past to screen for Stroke potential, but it was found to give false negatives. The beginning of the test was simply taking an accurate history to rule out past stroke or a family history of stroke. The second part of “George’s Test” was having the patient extend their cervical spine (look up) and to one side then the other. This test was meant to test the ability of blood to flow through the Vertebral Artery, but was found to be inaccurate. I think patients with a history or that have other markers for stroke should have cervical ultrasound testing to rule out this possibility before starting Chiropractic care. Ultrasound testing is used in suspected (AAA) patients to rule that out when palpation of the abdomen reveals a very prominent Abdominal Aorta or when xrays detect calcification of the Abdominal Aorta and measuring the Aneurysm is possible on xray analysis.

          Now this information can either scare you, or you can feel comforted that Chiropractors are aware of your and the medical communities concerns regarding our profession. We are not turning a blind eye to these issues as people think we are. We have and are continuing to take appropriate steps to continually decrease the possibility of public harm while we continue to do what we believe to be a good thing for people who come into our office. That is the best we can do currently with the information we have at this time.

          I will also ask you to do the same as I asked Frank, Blue Wode. Go to a Chiropractor or Osteopathic medical doctor if you dare. Ask for an adjustment and tell me what you think. I tend to take peoples opinions of what I do more seriously if they have at least tried it in the past. It doesn’t work for everyone, so I like honest feedback. If you do try it out, please let me know what you think. Be honest. Be brutal if you wish. If you like it and think maybe it isn’t as crazy as you currently think, please don’t be afraid to post that too.

          Thanks for bringing up a good point regarding needing better screening tests in our profession. It scares me sometimes to think people with certain conditions show up to a Chiropractor at times instead of the E.R. I have sent patients to the hospital for Appendicitis and Diverticulitis that they thought were simply horrible back pain.

          I also had to send a patient to the hospital that thought they just had a bad headache. This patient had a brown recluse spider bite that I found on inspection and also had a staph infection as a result. After he was treated medically, his medical doctor was glad that a Chiropractor saw the spider bite and sent him in for wound draining and antibiotics to fight the staph that was in his blood stream causing his headaches. The doctor told this patient that I may have saved part of his leg by catching this so quickly and that his staph infection could have hurt him much worse if I didn’t send him straight in for medical treatment.

          All this to say that Chiropractors often have patients walk in to see us that should not be here. We train to recognize these situations and try to take necessary steps to help these people get the care they need. Continuing to improve our ability to recognize these situations, screen for potentially dangerous situations, and refer appropriately or dial 911 when necessary is very important to our profession. This is not unique to Chiropractors. I work with 3 Nurse Practitioners. They often run into these same issues where patients come in to see them when an Emergency room visit is more appropriate. Heart Attack, Stroke, Anaphylactic reactions from food or bee stings, and many other things walk into Chiropractors and other providers offices all the time. We don’t just adjust them and kick them out our doors like people think we do.

          • @Jeremy
            “Go to a Chiropractor or Osteopathic medical doctor if you dare. Ask for an adjustment and tell me what you think.”
             
            Er; why should anyone without symptoms of any kind go to a chiropractor or any other person?
             
            Do you think we should first go to see an astrologer before ridiculing their claims? Or a fortune teller, or a psychic? Why don’t chiropractors go see an acupuncturist for a bit of needling: or to a reflexologist or a reiki master? you might discover what they do is superior to chiropractic.

          • Jeremy wrote: “I agree with you Blue Wode.”

            I don’t think you do…

            Jeremy wrote: “Chiropractors do not think the cervical manipulation is harming the vertebral artery or causing strokes to occur. We do not see this as a real worry in our office, but we see this as a simple fear held by a minority in the medical, legal, and possibly public community.”

            So why then, at no.12 in the list contained in your comment above, did you say “Neck manipulation is potentially dangerous. a. True. Given the anatomy of the Vertebral artery and the Cervical spine, theoretically cervical manipulation could cause artery injury or release an already present clot to cause a stroke in patients.” ?

            Jeremy wrote: “I fear I am causing damage to the Vertebral Artery about as much as I fear I am messing with people’s soul. If research proves otherwise, then I will of course adapt and change what I do to protect patients.”

            Given that you have already stated that neck manipulation is potentially dangerous, why aren’t you, and all other chiropractors, applying the precautionary principle (i.e. not using neck manipulation) in the interests of patient safety?

            Jeremy wrote: “Here is something else to feed the skeptics arsenal of anti-Chiropractic ranting. The Abdominal Aorta can become enlarged in some patients causing lower back pain. If a rough adjustment is given to these patients, it is theoretically deadly. If the Abdominal Aortic Aneurysm (AAA) bursts, the patient can internally bleed to death. Have fun with this information.”

            ‘Anti-chiropractic ranting’? If that’s that how you view critical thinking, you should be ashamed of yourself. Aren’t you aware that chiropractors have no reliable adverse event reporting systems? Also, as far as I know, ER physicians don’t routinely ask patients if they have been ‘adjusted’ recently, so how do you know that chiropractic interventions aren’t harmful?

            Jeremy: “I think patients with a history or that have other markers for stroke should have cervical ultrasound testing to rule out this possibility before starting Chiropractic care.”

            And what of congenital abnormalities of the internal neck anatomy in healthy people with no history or markers?

            Jeremy wrote: “We have and are continuing to take appropriate steps to continually decrease the possibility of public harm while we continue to do what we believe to be a good thing for people who come into our office. That is the best we can do currently with the information we have at this time.

            ‘…believe to be a good thing’? Where are your ethics? Why aren’t you adopting a cautious attitude in view that you have already admitted that neck manipulation is potentially dangerous? Once again, why do you not apply the precautionary principle and always use other options? Is it because neck manipulation takes only a few seconds – IOW, because most chiropractors are lazy?

            Jeremy wrote: “I will also ask you to do the same as I asked Frank, Blue Wode. Go to a Chiropractor or Osteopathic medical doctor if you dare.”

            If I did go to one, how could I (or anyone else for that matter) be sure that it wasn’t the clinic of a vitalistic chiropractor? (NB. the vitalist element makes up around 80% of the chiropractic industry.) Do the chiropractic regulators provide directories which illustrate the practice styles of their individual registrants?

            Jeremy wrote: “Ask for an adjustment and tell me what you think.”

            Why would I do that when I know that the perceived benefits of an adjustment are outweighed by the potential for catastrophic, life-threatening complications? With cheaper, safer, and more convenient options available, why would I risk my life and money?

            Jeremy wrote: “I tend to take peoples opinions of what I do more seriously if they have at least tried it in the past.”

            Bearing in mind that you’re not likely to hear again from customers who have had negative experiences, I hope that you take the opinions of these people seriously: http://whatstheharm.net/chiropractic.html

            Jeremy wrote: “It doesn’t work for everyone, so I like honest feedback.”

            Well, here’s some for you: Could ‘it doesn’t work for everyone’ be because its effects are non-specific? As Professor Ernst has commented in the past “…there is no such thing as a placebo responder (someone who always benefits from placebo) and a placebo non-responder (someone who never benefits from it). This unreliability makes it problematic to count on placebo effects in clinical practice.”
            http://www.ebm-first.com/a-close-look-at-alternative-medicine/163-mind-over-matter.html

            Jeremy wrote: “It scares me sometimes to think people with certain conditions show up to a Chiropractor at times instead of the E.R. … All this to say that Chiropractors often have patients walk in to see us that should not be here.”

            Perhaps that’s because most chiropractors – confusingly and undeservedly – call themselves doctors.

      • I am glad I could make you laugh Frank.

        Chiropractic is simply a profession that focuses on finding drug free and surgery free ways of helping people. If the medical field has specialists who are evolving to think like us such as physiotherapists prescribing Vit D for back pain instead of jumping straight towards medications, then I guess you could say that they are wannabe Chiropractors not that we are trying to be like them. Chiropractors were still trying to find drug and surgery free ways of helping people when Alexander Flexner decided that the only thing that should be taught in Medical School is the use of drugs and surgery. His term Quackery applied to everything except those two things. Nutrition, Psychology, Chiropractic, Osteopathic Manipulation, and possibly Acupuncture were all considered quackery due to them not being drugs and surgery.

        I do not consider myself delusional regarding Child adjusting. I have patients sent to me from pediatricians for symptoms such as colic or chronic ear infections. I usually find minimal fixations present in young kids, and typically only find small upper cervical fixations that easily move under gentle mobilization. I don’t think in terms of finding and eliminating Subluxations in my office, although I do not find this terminology to be a problem when Chiropractors do use it. I know what they mean and appreciate them holding on to the terminology of our previous Chiropractors for historical purposes. I tend to see positive results with gentle upper cervical mobilization in my child patients. The parents think that it helps, and the pediatricians tend to think that it is helping them as well. As with everything in healthcare, I will pay attention to new research and will adjust my office appropriately.

        By the way,
        I never advise parents to stop seeing their pediatricians. I don’t think general Chiropractors are appropriate to replace a pediatrician. I also am not saying that a pediatric specialist Chiropractic is a replacement for a pediatrician. What I know about pediatric specialty Chiropractors is that they are more focused on learning child development stages and knowing when a parent should be referred to a pediatrician for evaluation of specific symptoms than a general Chiropractor. I personally adjust my 9 month old son very gently and he tends to laugh when I do it. I would never do anything to hurt my son or any other child. I don’t always know if my gentle mobilization of children is doing much for them, but I am confident so far that I am not doing anything to harm them. I would stop immediately if I thought I was doing anything that would hurt a child. If research ever proved that what I was doing was hurting anyone, then I would stop doing those things immediately.

        I hope this was informative and wasn’t too humorous for you. If you have never been adjusted by a Chiropractor or Osteopathic medical doctor, maybe you should give it a shot. I would respect your opinions more knowing that you have at least experienced what it is that we do for a living for people. I know it wouldn’t qualify as evidence in a research setting, but it would be extremely safe, gentle and possibly informative for you. I think you would probably enjoy an old school, done by hand only Chiropractor. I do not use drop tables or activators in my office. I only prefer hands one spinal manipulation as a personal preference. If you do try it out, please let me know what your honest opinion of the adjustment was.

        • I kind of understand the ignorance (which can be improved upon) in a non-volatile way of stating “just don’t know” and throwing an opinion out. I had this recently sent to me on “Professional Comparison”
          Comparison of DC, DO, MD, ND, PT, RMT, LMT. Data was collected from 2014 academic calendars among the top ranked programs in North America. You may have to copy and paste to see the site that does a nice job of showing the educational focus for the above professions.

          https://www.prohealthsys.com/students/professional-comparison/

          I was attracted to chiropractic in that it benefited the nervous system, musculoskeletal system and probably many related systems. I had not been helped in certain health, possibly some sickness conditions, with traditional medicine. Does not mean they are wrong, or anyone is “more right”. The above web site comparison helps to illustrate the focus of the education and emphasis.

          • @Rick
            I’m not sure what the education bar graph is supposed to prove. It’s not the hours spent that matter, it’s the quality of the education. You can spend a lifetime being indoctrinated with nonsense under the name of ‘education’, as many cult practices demonstrate.
             
            I was attracted to chiropractic in that it benefited the nervous system, musculoskeletal system and probably many related systems.
             
            And the reasonable evidence to support these benfits is where?

          • @Rick,
            “I was attracted to chiropractic in that it benefited the nervous system, musculoskeletal system and probably many related systems.”

            In what way?

        • Funny how terms, as “quack” came about and are still used.

          I was told the word “Quack” is an old term from the physicians that used a specific method of care not up to standards. The use of heavy metals to treat illness has been around for a long time and mercury was one used often for venereal disease. Quacksalver’s similarity to quicksilver, or mercury—a heavy metal sometimes slipped into counterfeit medications—might suggest a connection between the two, but there doesn’t seem to be any recorded evidence that the element led to the name. Maybe Quicksilver being used to treat VD, especially the rampant syphilis outbreaks, helped perpetuate the Quecksilber {noun} german word. But further investigation reflects even more.

          It seems Quack originated from a Dutch term: “Quack, in the sense of a medical impostor, is a shortening of the old Dutch quacksalver (spelled kwakzalver in the modern Dutch), which originally meant a person who cures with home remedies, and then came to mean one using false cures or knowledge.”
          So far, I know of only on profession that still uses mercury into the body. Thiomersal (INN), commonly known in the U.S. as thimerosal, is an organomercury compound. This compound is a well established antiseptic and antifungal agent.
          The pharmaceutical corporation Eli Lilly and Company gave thiomersal the trade name Merthiolate. It has been used as a preservative in vaccines. Reduced or eliminated in vaccines for children under six years recently.

          • Interesting. I have not heard this before. My only knowlege of our profession being called “Quackery” was within the Flexner Report. It looks like I was incorrect in my original post on this topic. I wrote Alexander Flexner and it looks like his first name was actually Abraham. I should have double checked before posting.

  • Blue Wode:

    First of all, I would like to address an obviously ignorant statement you made regarding many Chiropractors calling themselves Doctor. All Chiropractors call themselves Doctor because that is our earned title. This is not disputable. Our official title in the Health Care profession is Doctor of Chiropractic. I do not think patients who show up to my office think they are coming to a Hospital and are seeing an M.D. considering they made an appointment at a Chiropractic Clinic.
    I work alongside Nurse Practitioners at my office and they get the same things walking in their door. They are also surprised when people who should have gone to the E.R. show up to our clinic. They have called 911 many times through the years for patients who didn’t realize their situation was as severe as it was. This is true for every provider and why we are educated to level that we are. Saying that we shouldn’t call ourselves “Doctor” is just plain moronic.

    The general population has made a strong associating between the word Doctor and M.D.s, but they are also aware that other doctors are present in our health care system and society that are not M.D.s. They typically look at the big sign outside that says Chiropractic, Hospital, Emergency Room, Dentist, Psychologist, or University to determine which type of Doctor they may run into. Suggesting people confuse a Chiropractor with a Medical Doctor while they are working in their own Chiropractic clinic is absolutely an absurd statement. If this was a real problem, the public has a lot more problems than I can help them with, and I want to move immediately.

    http://www.jmptonline.org/article/S0161-4754%2808%2900347-3/abstract

    So, I was a little liberal when I read No 12 and the use of the word “potential”. Let me rephrase my opinion to help you understand what I meant. There is a medical argument that has been made trying to link the possibility of Stroke being associated with Cervical Manipulation in a select few in the Medical System. Here is one study done to help find any actual truth regarding this connection. This connection is based on the Anatomy of the Vertebral Artery and not actual cases that have been proven to have been caused by cervical manipulation.

    This is one of the studies that help Chiropractors make decisions on the reality of this situation. We do not think there is any association between stroke and Chiropractic since it does not occur more often in our patients than in the general population. I should have rewritten No 12 to exclude the term “potentially” as this is vague. The statement “neck manipulation is dangerous” is actually False. There are obviously contraindications and precautions to manipulation such as fracture and yes congenital abnormalities.

    This study would lead most people to the conclusion that this idea that cervical manipulation causes stroke is a myth similar to Hippocrates irrational fear of interfering with someone’s soul during spinal manipulation.

    https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/update-chiropractic-neck-manipulation-and-stroke/

    Here is a discussion in Science based medicine that shows the obvious bias against our profession in some of the medical community. As hard as they try, the medical profession cannot prove that there is a connection between Cervical Manipulation and Stroke. Believe me, the people who irrationally hate us, hate us a lot. Well you guys already know that considering your previous posts. These arguments are based on the idea that they do not find any benefit or value in what we do. Even if there is no real risk of harm, they do not want people to see Chiropractors. I agree that we need to research further the efficacy of spinal manipulation to show the medical community and public that what we are seeing in our clinical practice and what patients are seeing is real. Let me add that this bias against what we do not being effective is not held by the majority of the medical community today. Orthopedic surgeons especially find Chiropractors to be safe and effective treatments for many of their patients and refer to us all the time. Most every medical provider I have ever met is pro-Chiropractic and considers the myths surrounding the “potential” dangers of our profession to be irrational witch hunts by a select few in the medical community.

    http://stroke.ahajournals.org/content/32/5/1054.full

    Here is another example of research trying to prove that Cervical Manipulation is linked to injury. If you read this study carefully, you will see that it not only says that some Medical Doctors are sure that Chiropractic manipulation or cervical manipulation causes VBA to occur. In the same conclusion, the writer does a good job of explaining that patients who are having VBA episodes less than 45 years old are extremely rare. The fact that these patients are so young and that this is such a rare event causes the patient and their doctor to “hunt” for a culprit even if there isn’t anyone to blame. Chiropractors are often blamed for what this paper admits is probably a false accusation. This conclusion also states that they cannot find any association with cervical manipulation and stroke in older populations.

    Ok. So the conclusion basically says that some M.D.s blame Chiropractors for their very rare VBA patients. The conclusion then says that this is probably an unfair accusation given the pathophysiology of the condition making it easy to blame an injury on someone unfairly when there is probably no one to blame. Then it goes on to explain the research didn’t even find out if the patients who went to the Chiropractor in the same week as having a VBA were even manually cervically manipulated or if neck pain was even their complaint when they went to the Chiropractor.

    After all of this, a logical medical doctor, chiropractor, dentist, psychologist, or anyone else who has any level of intelligence can see that the conclusion to this research should state that Chiropractic is not thought to be linked to VBA and that the fear of a select few in the medical community is based on the pathophysiology and nature of VBA in patients under 45 years old. Given that these patients with VBA may have not had cervical manipulation, further analysis of what the patients received during their Chiropractic visit should be determined.

    ….. But it doesn’t say that. It says that Chiropractic doesn’t really do anything anyways so even if there isn’t a real risk and that we are unfairly being blamed, we should stop doing cervical manipulation.

    So, I was being way too liberal when I originally posted my opinion of No. 12. I should have said False. There is no real danger associated with Chiropractors performing cervical manipulation as taught within our college programs.

    So, I again extend to you the suggestion of both you and Frank trying a spinal manipulation as done by a Chiropractor, Osteopath, or Trained Physical Therapist, because the fear of death is irrational and based on myth. You will be fine. You will not die. You will not be injured. It is not that serious. If you do get over your irrational fear and hatred for something that is commonly referred for many patients by their medical doctors these days without any fear of injury, then I am sorry you are scared.

    Oh, and you do not have to have a symptom to receive spinal manipulation. You also do not have to have a symptom to eat a salad, take a supplement, do yoga, get a massage, receive acupuncture, go for a physical, get an allergy exam from an M.D. using a skin prick test, get your blood pressure checked, take your temperature, and many more. Get over yourself.

    • Jeremy wrote: “First of all, I would like to address an obviously ignorant statement you made regarding many Chiropractors calling themselves Doctor. All Chiropractors call themselves Doctor because that is our earned title.”

      It is a courtesy title. In the UK it may be used by chiropractors only if they make it clear that they are registered chiropractors and not registered medical practitioners. That is because a degree in chiropractic does not command the same depth and quality of training as a degree in medicine.

      Jeremy wrote: “Saying that we shouldn’t call ourselves “Doctor” is just plain moronic…Suggesting people confuse a Chiropractor with a Medical Doctor while they are working in their own Chiropractic clinic is absolutely an absurd statement.”

      Tell that to the UK’s Advertising Standards Authority. Its guidance on the use of the title ‘Dr’ makes it clear that chiropractors should not mislead the public by using it:
      https://www.cap.org.uk/Advice-Training-on-the-rules/Advice-Online-Database/Use-of-the-term-Dr-Chiropractors.aspx#.VeB51KBViko

      Jeremy wrote: “This is one of the studies [ http://www.jmptonline.org/article/S0161-4754%2808%2900347-3/abstract Cassidy, JD et al, Risk of vertebrobasilar stroke and chiropractic care: results of a population-based case-control and case-crossover study. J Manipulative Physiol Ther. 2009 Feb;32(2 Suppl):S201-8.] that help Chiropractors make decisions on the reality of this [neck manpulation and stroke] situation. We do not think there is any association between stroke and Chiropractic since it does not occur more often in our patients than in the general population…This study would lead most people to the conclusion that this idea that cervical manipulation causes stroke is a myth similar to Hippocrates irrational fear of interfering with someone’s soul during spinal manipulation.”

      Like most chiropractors, Jeremy has failed to point out that the study’s authors said that the results of the study had to be “interpreted cautiously…we have not ruled out neck manipulation as a potential cause of some vertebrobasilar artery stroke”. Indeed, it is worth reading the following brief critique of the study:

      QUOTE
      “Several hundred published cases have drawn our attention to an association between chiropractic spinal manipulation and vascular accidents [e.g. 1]. Extension and/or rotation of the neck puts strain on the vertebral artery which, in predisposed individuals, may dissect [1]. This theory would provide a biologically plausible mechanism for these adverse events. But neither anecdotal data or a plausible theory alone can establish causality. Proponents of chiropractic therefore claim that the association is, in fact, not causal and should therefore not deter us from recommending neck manipulation.
      This argument has found support from a Canadian case control study [2]. It is now frequently cited by proponents of chiropractic who claim that chiropractic spinal manipulation is entirely safe. Here I will provide a brief critique of the new evidence [2] and try to put it into a clinical context.

      Cassidy’s case control study
      The paper in question [2] provides a retrospective case-control study and case-crossover analysis. The authors, two of whom are chiropractors, used the data from 818 hospitalised stroke patients, and matched them, for the case-control analysis, with 3164 control subjects. For the cross-over analysis, they compared them to data from the same patients from previous time periods. Usage of chiropractic services primary care physicians was extracted from health billing records.
      The results indicate that, compared to exposure to treatment by physicians, there was no excess risks of chiropractic therapy. According to proponents of chiropractic, these findings suggest that many stroke patients have a history of consulting chiropractors because they consult these practitioners for their neck pain and headache [2], which can, of course, be precursors of a stroke. According to this theory, the chiropractic treatment would not be a cause but an innocent bystander of the vascular accident.

      A critical assessment
      The study by Cassidy et al [2] is no doubt interesting but it also has several flaws which must be taken into account. Its authors acknowledge this fact and state: “Our results should be interpreted cautiously … we have not ruled out neck manipulation as a potential cause of some vertebrobasilar artery stroke.” [2] Unfortunately this advice is rarely heeded by those who argue that this evidence demonstrates the safety of chiropractic neck manipulation. Particular concerns relate to the following issues:

      • Non-hospitalised stroke cases, transient cerebral ischaemia, stroke patients residing in long-term care facilities and patients not covered by the Ontario Health Insurance Plan or patients not reimbursed for consulting a chiropractor were all excluded from the analyses. It is conceivable that these exclusions had a significant influence on the results.
      • The authors included all strokes that incurred within 30 days of the index date. This could have weakened an already weak signal: most strokes associated with chiropractic occurred soon after treatment [1]. Sub-analysis of the Cassidy data seem to confirm this; the odds ratio for a stroke within one day of chiropractic is 12.0 compared to 3.1 for the 30 day period [2].
      • Most strokes occur spontaneously and relate to the elderly population. The Cassidy analyses [2] included all age groups. This might have further diluted the weak signal. Sub-analysis of the Cassidy data confirm that the odds ratios for patients below the age of 45 years are consistently higher than those for patients beyond that age.
      • Cassidy et al took their evidence for a stroke from discharge notes. Such notes are notoriously unreliable and no data were provided to show how accurate these data were. This may even be more relevant for vertebrobasilar strokes, the type of stroke relevant in relation to chiropractic neck manipulation [1].

      Conclusion
      Apart from a plethora of anecdotal data [1], at least two further case-control studies suggest a causal association between chiropractic manipulation and vascular accidents [3,4]. The analysis by Smith et al [4] made an attempt to control for the possibility of bias through pre-existing neck pain and concluded that manipulation was a risk factor independent of that variable.
      The Cassidy study [2] is a valuable contribution to the debate about chiropractic’s safety but is by no means a compelling proof for the harmlessness of chiropractic neck manipulation. In fact, the balance of the currently available evidence would seem to point in the opposite direction.
      The most benign interpretation of the totality of the evidence is therefore as follows. There is an association between chiropractic and vascular accidents which not even the most ardent proponents of this treatment can deny. The mechanisms that might be involved are entirely plausible. Yet the nature of this association (causal or coincidental) remains uncertain.
      The cautionary principle, demands that, until reliable evidence emerges, we must err on the safe side. Considering also that the evidence of any benefit from chiropractic neck manipulations is weak or absent [5], I see little reason to advise in favour of upper spinal manipulation.”

      Ref: Ernst, E. Vascular accidents after chiropractic spinal manipulation: Myth or reality? Perfusion 2010; 23:73-74
      Link: http://www.chirowatch.com/stroke/2010%20vascular%20accidents%20after%20chirosm%20-%20myth%20or%20reality.pdf

      More critical comment on the Cassidy study here:
      http://www.ebm-first.com/chiropractic/risks/491-chiropractic-and-stroke-evaluation-of-the-paper-risk-of-vertebrobasilar-stroke-and-chiropractic-care-results-of-a-population-based-case-control-and-case-crossover-study-spine-2008-feb-15334-suppls176-83-cassidy-jd-boyle-e-c.html

      Jeremy wrote: “Get over yourself.”

      Jeremy, you are not doing yourself any favours:
      http://edzardernst.com/2012/12/ad-hominem-attacks-are-signs-of-victories-of-reason-over-unreason/

      • Blue Wode:

        In advertisements, I am not allowed to call myself Doctor without the term Chiropractor attached. I could also use the initials D.C. as that stands for Doctor of Chiropractic. Using only the term Doctor by any professional who is one but not a Medical Doctor does create confusion. I have no problem with this advertising restriction as it is fair that some people would call me thinking I am a medical doctor if I do not not make it clear that I am a Chiropractor in my advertisements. That is not to say that people who come to my Chiropractic clinic will mistake me for a Medical Doctor, because that is just simply not plausible. My business cards say D.C. behind my name or Doctor of Chiropractic to make sure no one is confusing me with a Medical Doctor. That doesn’t imply that a medical doctor’s training is better than mine. That implies that some people will think I am a Medical Doctor. I am sure Dentists advertise that they are Doctors of Dentistry and cannot simply advertise themselves as Doctors on business cards or billboards.

        I wrote “get over youself” not because I am out of research or ideas, but because I think you and Frank are making mountains out of mole hills. You guys are taking the facts and blowing them out of proportion to make your point. You saying that Chiropractors are undeserving of the Title Doctor within our profession is no different. Why can you say that I am undeserved of the title Doctor (which is an insult in my opinion) , but I cannot tell you to get over yourself.
        I am not calling you names or personally attacking you because I am out of ideas as this link you posted describes. This seems pretty hypocritical in my opinion. I do agree that personal attacks often happen when a person has run out of ideas, but believe me, I have lots more ideas and arguments to make.
        I think the irrational fears surrounding this profession are fun to debate. I can’t wait for what the future holds for these arguments. Chiropractors are already working inside the Military and working in Hospitals. As soon as the medical community fully admits that our profession is valid and safe through their own research, I hope you will come back to this post and admit that I was correct in my arguments.

        That all being said. I have so far had a lot of fun debating these topics with you. If I can’t change your minds regarding my profession or if you will not try it out and give me feed back, I appreciate your intelligent debating. It is rare for me to find intelligent debaters that I can discuss these things with. Please do not take offense if I do say anything out of frustration. I may not agree with people who do not like Chiropractic, but I don’t want to stop the discussion.

        • Jeremy wrote: “Using only the term Doctor by any professional who is one but not a Medical Doctor does create confusion.”

          But the confusion created by other professionals is almost invariably far less than that caused by chiropractors calling themselves Doctor. Most other health professionals who use the title Doctor are obviously dealing with a specific field – e.g. dentists treat teeth, vets treat animals.

          Jeremy wrote: “I have no problem with this advertising restriction as it is fair that some people would call me thinking I am a medical doctor if I do not make it clear that I am a Chiropractor in my advertisements. That is not to say that people who come to my Chiropractic clinic will mistake me for a Medical Doctor, because that is just simply not plausible.”

          It is highly plausible. Many chiropractors use deceptive practice-building tactics and one of their big favourites is to advertise that they are family practices offering ‘wellness’ care. That, to me, is very similar to masquerading as General Practitioners.

          Jeremy wrote: “Why can you say that I am undeserved of the title Doctor (which is an insult in my opinion), but I cannot tell you to get over yourself…I am not calling you names or personally attacking you because I am out of ideas as this link you posted describes. This seems pretty hypocritical in my opinion.”

          It is not being hypocritical. It is perfectly fair to say that chiropractors don’t deserve the title Doctor given that they work in a healthcare profession that’s based on pseudoscience and which is still very much mired in quackery. The bottom line is that there is no scientific evidence to support chiropractic’s unique interventions.

          With regard to personal attacks, you didn’t just say ‘get over yourself’. You have peppered your comments with thinly veiled ad homs such as:

          “I would like to address an obviously ignorant statement you made”
          “Saying that we shouldn’t call ourselves “Doctor” is just plain moronic”
          “Suggesting people confuse a Chiropractor with a Medical Doctor while they are working in their own Chiropractic clinic is absolutely an absurd statement”
          “Believe me, the people who irrationally hate us, hate us a lot. Well you guys already know that considering your previous posts”
          “Here is something else to feed the skeptics arsenal of anti-Chiropractic ranting”

          Jeremy, your defensive arguments are not new to me. Indeed, when chiropractors resort to them, it always reminds me of this Upton Sinclair quote: ‘It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.’

      • Thank you Blue Wode for your important,comprehensive and well researched inputs.

        I wish to add my view on their misuse of titles and terms.
        I did earnestly try chiropractic therapy several years ago (Yes Jeremy, according to your criteria I have the right to an opinion) after finding that in the US it was considered helpful for uncomplicated LBP. I really gave it a very fair and honest chance but after some weeks I started to realise that I was in effect being “railroaded”. The chiropractor fired the “coup de grace” into his credibility when he invited a seasoned, scientifically active surgeon (=me) to an evening lecture at his practice, where he told the group of patients about the concept of subluxations and the theory of nerve impingement that, if relieved would cure or benefit anything from Asthma to Zygomycosis and anything in between including gallstones and appendicitis, problems with which I am professionally familiar. His knowledge of anatomy and pathology was also pathetically amateurish.
        I realised then and there that the theoretical basis of chiropractic is first grade nonsense and I also realised that the results of his manipulations, in whom I had placed serious trust, were seriously wanting. After the initial weeks of him giving me the VIP attention with pampering and sweet talk, he started me on a program of twice weekly, rather costly ministrations that quickly degraded down to me taking my shirt of, waiting in a cubicle and when it was my turn in a steady flow of patients (he had five cubicles with magazines for us to wait our turn) him to spend exactly two minutes on “Hi, how are you, lay down, twist, thump, crack… see you on thursday!”
        The only[sic] improvement during these weeks was that of his economy at my cost.
        He even insisted on cracking my cervical spine even if I had never had any problems or symptoms from it. He said it was pre-emptive.
        This experience got me thinking critically. I felt deceived and after reading up on DD Palmer and all the information on chiropractic, I came to the conclusion that chiropractic is NOT A REAL PROFESSION! Chiropractic is to all practical purposes A RELIGION!

        Of course you can argue that the dictionary definition of “profession” also may encompas imaginary and faulty knowledge but the use of the term is in practice deceptive.

        • Bjorn Geir,

          Thank you so much for your honesty. This is all I ask of people who doubt Chiropractic. I value your opinion as a health care provider and am sorry the Chiropractor you went to did not live up to what I hope is a better standard of care for our profession in the future. I am comforted by the the fact that most Chiropractors I have gone to in my life (since the age of 10 or 11), did not practice in such a poor way. If he attended a Chiropractic college that did not adequately teach him Anatomy and Physiology before he graduated, then I think the school not only owes the public an apology but should refund this Doctor of Chiropractic back his tuition and living expenses. He could then hopefully go to a better Chiropractic School with higher standards of education and/or change professions without the overwhelming debt he is no doubt in due to his education costs. I truly (no sarcasm intended) appreciate your intelligent and honest opinion given your experience. The profession can work with this information to better ourselves and hopefully start regulating Chiropractors who fall below a certain level of practice.

          By the way guys. I am not unreasonable. I have read the links you have posted, and I appreciate the fact that you have made intelligent debates. I apologize if I have peppered my comments with defensive arguments. I am naturally passive aggressive, and this is just how I talk. I will do a better job of editing this out of my future arguments.

          I would like to add that if specific spinal manipulation techniques are proven through research to actually be dangerous to the public, I will fully support steps to be taken to keep these dangers to as low a level as possible. I will also weigh the benefit vs risk of these procedures in my office in order to decrease any potential risk to my patients who I care very much about and would never intentionally hurt.

          I know that Chiropractors in the United States have made efforts to decrease or eliminate Cervical Extension from manual manipulation of the cervical spine by using either little to no cervical extension in the spine and even using alternative prone and/or seated cervical manipulation techniques in response to this medical concern. This is being done in the United States proactively by the Chiropractic community even in the face of not believing that the causal relationship between stroke and Extension/Rotation manipulation of the spine is causing harm.

          I know some of you will take this argument and then add that you think the benefit does not exist and that there is never any reason to adjust given this fact. I disagree fully on this point, but do agree the Chiropractic profession should continue research efforts to prove that what we do is effective. My clinical and personal experience with Chiropractic so far has led me to think that there is obvious and great benefit to me and my patients.

          • Jeremy wrote: “My clinical and personal experience with Chiropractic so far has led me to think that there is obvious and great benefit to me and my patients.”

            Jeremy, “has led me to think” is not good enough. I would venture that most CAM practitioners (and their patients) make wrong assumptions about treatment outcomes. CAM practitioners, nearly all of whom rely on ‘patient satisfaction’ in order to earn a living, will be particularly averse to questioning if it really was their intervention that produced a positive result. For a more comprehensive understanding of this mindset, I suggest that you have a slow read through the late Barry Beyerstein’s classic essay, ‘Social and Judgmental Biases That Seem to Make Inert Treatments Work’ (The Scientific Review of Alternative Medicine, Fall/Winter 1999, Vol. 3, No.2). It’s a thorough analysis of alternative medicine and common errors of reasoning. Here are the areas he examined:

            1.) Psychological reasons for the popularity of alternative therapies:

            The will to believe

            Logical errors and lack of a control group

            Judgmental shortcomings

            2.) Social and cultural reasons for the popularity of unproven therapies:

            The low level of scientific literacy among the public at large

            An increase in anti-intellectualism and anti-scientific attitudes riding on the coat-tails of New Age mysticism

            Vigorous marketing of extravagant claims by the “alternative” medical community

            Inadequate media scrutiny and attacking critics

            Increasing social malaise and mistrust of traditional authority figures-the anti-doctor backlash

            Dislike of the delivery methods of scientific biomedicine

            Safety and side effects

            Psychological distortion of reality

            Self-serving biases and demand characteristics

            3.) Why might therapists and their clients who rely on anecdotal evidence and uncontrolled observations erroneously conclude that inert therapies work?

            The disease may have run its natural course

            Many diseases are cyclical

            Spontaneous remission

            The placebo effect and the need for randomised, double blind assessments

            Some allegedly cured symptoms were probably psychosomatic to begin with

            Symptomatic relief versus cure

            Many consumers of alternative therapies hedge their bets

            Misdiagnosis (by self or by a physician)

            Derivative benefits

            A link to the entire essay can be found here:
            http://www.ebm-first.com/a-close-look-at-alternative-medicine/153-alternative-medicine-and-common-errors-of-reasoning.html

            Also see here:

            Chiropractic spinal manipulation = placebo!
            http://edzardernst.com/2015/08/chiropractic-spinal-manipulation-placebo/

          • @Jeremy
            You say you hope for a “better standard of care” in the future.
            Whether you like it or not, here is my well informed take on that hope of yours:
             
            In order to ‘improve’ a standard of care you need to have one in the first place. Chiropractic is a made-up mistake from the very beginning, devised by a lunatic magnetic healer and propagated by greed, lack of education and indifference to genuine facts of anatomy, physiology and pathology.
             
            I have gone to depth in my study of the basis of chiropractic and its application. There is nothing[sic] medically useful at all in ‘genuine chiropractic’… period. There is very little useful in various additions to it since its inception by the barmy magnetic healer. Most of its development has been in further parlour tricks and practice building smoke and mirrors. Of course there is the odd lucky strike with an LBP coming out of the most acute phase by the twisting manipulation. That is commonplace physiotherapy that even many physicians know how to do.
            Of course many chiropractors have learned physiotherapeutic techniques and many are helpful with life-style coaching and such. That is beyond ‘chiropractic’ and part of the real world.
            A ‘better’ standard for chiropractors inevitably means that they stop fooling themselves and others and learn a proper trade properly.
            Some of them could of course become radiology assistants as they already know how to turn on the apparatus and point it at the patient. That’s about all the real radiology they know. I have checked on that too.
            Some would want to retrain to become proper physiotherapists.
            Some could become nutritionists (real ones that don’t sell useless vitamins and food-intolerance tests) and so on.
            Yes you lot can achieve a ‘better’ standard but it would mean giving up practically all your cabaret acts. You would have to start by admitting that poking and cracking the spine does not have any effect on diseases through the nervous system at all.
            You would have to realise that neck wringing is ineffective and dangerous!. You would have to learn that your silly clicker apparatus don’t do diddly squat (note what the inventor calls himself 😉 ). You would have to stop lying[sic] about toddlers needing early adjustments for imaginary birth trauma or that children need adjustments to “boost” the immune system (this joker is simply too much!) or to cure asthma, allergies or ear problems. You would have to stop pretending to be able to help with infertility, indigestion, and so on for a long list of all the deceitful conjurer’s tricks that I have seen chiropractors take money for, pretending to work through non existent nervous system mechanisms by pretentious poking, prodding and pulling.
             
            Yes, by all means, reform the profession! Good luck with taking a very lucrative selling[sic] act away from all these performers and tell them they have to stop thinking they are helping people and even saving lives.
             (even if you didn’t look at any of the links above, don’t miss this one)

          • Well said… very very well said…
            I see even to argue with many chiropractors even the strongest evidence is presented towards them, the way the answer you back points in the direction of their lacking of critical thinking/reading/analysing…etc

            If this type/line of work is something anyone is burning for, and REALLY want help the patients/humans best as possible, why choose something “alternative” and try to fix it, in this case chiropractic, instead of just become physiotherapist, orthoped., a profession which they have worked hard and still do towards scientific approaches for years, instead of bias-based studies like chiropractic, acupuncture, healing, angle therapy…etc

            and for those who still try to protect the chiropractic studies or other alternative therapies lack the basic knowledge of critical thinking…and much more that I would not use my time to explain here.. but I recommend strongly to take a in-depth look at this link:
            and by that I will not say or comment more on this page, which is a very interesting discussion.

            https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

            https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

  • Thank you Blue Wode for that link. I am probably going to read it a few times.

    Here is article that does a good job of discussing the concerns Chiropractors and other Providers potentially have regarding strictly using only Research and Guidelines to dictate patient care. I understand that research is necessary to ovoid the issues that Barry L. Beyerstein discusses in the link you shared.

    http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/24/1/18.full

    “Because this “gold standard” of evidence is rarely available, except in industry-sponsored drug trials, researchers have come to rely on other methods for determining “best evidence,” such as small clinical trials with insufficient statistical power, studies with a nonrandomized control group, other nonrandomized control studies, and, finally, studies without a control group such as case studies or testimonials.”

    Much of research is flawed and many conclusions based on this research are based on errors in the actual methods or statistics being used and/or misinterpretation of the results. http://www.globalresearch.ca/editor-in-chief-of-worlds-best-known-medical-journal-half-of-all-the-literature-is-false/5451305

    I posted the link above to discuss the other side of Evidence Based Medicine. Although I agree that research is important in health care. I think the idea that Research Trumps Clinical Experience is problematic. I think Clinical Experience and Research should work together. Clinical Experience should not be ignored in light of research. Research, Clinical Experience, and Patient Expectations should all play in both medical and alternative health care. http://community.cochrane.org/about-us/evidence-based-health-care

    The ideas of Abraham Flexner in his Flexner Report were very intelligent in reforming the Health Care system. The problem with his approach to health care is that it discounts the practitioners experience and knowledge, while also creating a harsh environment for patients. This approach to healthcare does not fit my Philosophy of what healthcare should look like. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Flexner (in case people don’t know who he is)

    Strict research only based guidelines should not be used to dictate healthcare instead of allowing providers to use the research in decision making. This would push healthcare to become very rigid and controlled with actual providers being left out of the decision making process. Individual patients would become simple numbers and would not opt to be part of such a heartless way of conducting health care.

    I can understand wanting a perfect healthcare system where no doctors are required and patients are simply numbers. Future health care may one day lose all providers and rely solely on insurance agents and research to make all medical decisions. Medical Doctors, Chiropractors, and other healthcare providers going to school to become anything more than technicians in their fields may indeed be the future. Alternative medicine may one day completely disappear. Personalized medicine may be replaced with research and guidelines dictating medical decisions to patients and providers.

    I do not feel this is the direction that health care should take both as a provider and as a patient. There are those that are pushing for this version of EBM system to take complete control. I do doubt the health care community as a whole will be able to fight this shift. I think this system is already happening and taking over in the United States. Medical doctors and Chiropractors are often upset that what they think is necessary for a patient is often denied by insurance companies. This leaves both providers and patients feeling that their care is becoming further and further out of their control.

    Some would say that excluding all medical practices and alternative practices until research has conclusively and hopefully without flaw supported the procedures to be performed would be ideal. I would argue that until we have enough quality research in healthcare, the provider’s clinical experience and expert opinions and opinions of the patient’s perceived benefit treatment must be considered in medical and alternative medical decisions.

    So, although I appreciate your opinion and the link you provided. I argue that Yes… My clinical opinion is good enough for now. To discount my expert clinical opinion and that of other providers in search for an entirely research based healthcare system is not only a bad idea, but not possible until limited and flawed research is no longer an issue.

    • Jeremy wrote: “Clinical Experience should not be ignored in light of research. Research, Clinical Experience, and Patient Expectations should all play in both medical and alternative health care.”

      Jeremy, Sackett’s definition of EBM (which you appear to be citing) is, essentially, the ‘conscientious, explicit, and judicious use of current best evidence’ in which clinical expertise and patient values are not a substitute for science, but are part of the mix. Many chiropractors, however, seem content to add their own prejudices into the mix at the expense of their patients’ time, money, and – in some cases – lives. IOW, like most CAM proponents, chiropractors are known to ignore unfavourable evidence, and use dishonest selectivity in their research methods. For example:

      Quote
      “What they (British Chiropractic Association) don’t do is mention any of the papers that contradict their claims. They cite Sackett et al. (1996) as their criterion for what constitutes evidence, That paper says “Evidence based medicine is the conscientious, explicit, and judicious use of current best evidence”. That means all the evidence. So why, for example, is there no mention of Olafsdottir et al. (2001), “Randomised controlled trial of infantile colic treated with chiropractic spinal manipulation”. That is one of the few really good papers in the area. It compared chiropractic treatment of babies for colic with placebo treatment (the nurse just held the baby for 10 minutes (the time the chiropractor took). The conclusion was…Chiropractic spinal manipulation is no more effective than placebo in the treatment of infantile colic.”
      Ref: http://www.dcscience.net/?p=1775

      Also, Jeremy, your goalpost-shifting exercise has been attempted previously by Alan Breen, Professor of Musculoskeletal Health at the Anglo European College of Chiropractic. FYI, it was countered by some sound, critical comment:

      Quote
      “The Journal of Health Services Research and Policy has just published a ‘perspective’ piece by Professor Alan Breen of the Anglo-European College of Chiropractic…Breen concludes ‘strong ontological commitment to only part of the knowledge base seems often to be the stance taken to contest the scientific basis of Chiropractic’ – at the end of an argument where he neglects to mention any trials that test the efficacy of Chiropractic for any condition. Moreover, the article does not cite a single negative study or review. Instead, politicians and committees are the preferred source of authority. Again, a preference for one side of the knowledge base is seen in the author’s focus on risks that are not balanced against benefits. Having had a look for the evidence, it appears to me that in an evidence-based biopsychosocial model for the treatment of musculoskeletal complaints: Chiropractic is, at best, unnecessary.”
      Ref: http://apgaylard.wordpress.com/2009/07/03/in-praise-of-chiropractic/

      Finally, Jeremy, I have to agree with Björn Geir’s comment above about chiropractic being a very lucrative selling act. Indeed, I’d go further and say that its performers are aptly named – chiroprACTORS.

      • ChiroprACTORS. I see what you did there. Pretty clever with your capitalization there hoss. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Hoss

        I think it is funny that Bjorn went to having one experience within a Chiropractic office to all of a sudden being an expert with his wikipedia and youtube skills in Chiropractic. Pretty impressive Bjorn.

        Did you also say that every medical doctor and physical therapist knows how to do spinal manipulation? I think not. L.O.L. (not really. I have a scowl)
        Why would medical school or physical therapy school bother teaching such wild and crazy things in school? Or did you youtube how to do it?

        BTW. That video was geared to take advantage of other Chiropractors. Our dean specifically explained that these guys made lots of money in the 80s when insurance was throwing money at us like fat kids throw broccoli at waiters not bringing their cake fast enough. This guy made tons of money I bet you in the ‘Mercedes 80s”, when Medical doctors were taking “incentives” for proscribing specific pharmaceutical brand medications. He stopped making money in his “million dollar practice”, which I doubt very much and decided to go into business trying to dupe young Chiropractors instead. Chiropractors who fall for these guys typically think they are going to learn how to run an office and make money with which marketing strategies work and which don’t. We open offices and don’t yet have the luxury of simply graduating and buying a BMW like my medical doctor friends have told me they did. I wish our lives were as easy as yours. Believe me. If I wasn’t specifically persuaded by my advisers (anesthesiologist and dermatologist) against going to medical school, I would have such an easier life right now. If you guys think you are right about Chiropractors today making the big bucks, then “I got news for you Walter Cronkite ….. you aren’t”. (Zoolander)

        • prescribing not proscribing .. typo

        • @Jeremy
          I suggest that the next time you get all upset over critical comments on chiropractic, that instead of spontaneously spurting out your Wrath and making a fool of yourself, you take a little time out Before diving into the deep end. It always helps to read the aggravating text a few times over so you can at least avoid misquoting it severely. It is also advisable in such circumstances to wait with your reply till the next day when most of the stress hormones (and perhaps other inebriating substances ?) have washed out of the system.

    • @Jeremy
       
      “I think the idea that Research Trumps Clinical Experience is problematic. ” I don’t. I think the idea that individual practitioners, alternative or otherwise, believe they know better than the outcomes of (well-conducted) research is a very bad one. The one inescapable thing about science is that it often fails to confirm subjective opinions and ‘common sense’.

      • Okay guys. I guess I may be moving the goal post on this subject. I am not sure what that means, but I have developed an informed consent form and would like your feedback. What I am hearing in these arguments is that tricking the public into thinking we are evidence based more than we are is your biggest concern. That the public may not know the full story and they should be properly informed before trying Chiropractic or any CAM type of care over medical care or in conjunction with medical care. So give me your feedback and let me know if you think patients can make an educated decision based on what we have talked about so far.

        Chiro Activity Awesomeness
        Informed Consent for Chiropractic Care
        Doctor(s) of Chiropractic on staff Dr. Joe Hamershmit and Dr. Not a Medical Doctor Billy

        (initials) _____ I understand that I am seeking treatment at Chiro Activity Awesomeness with the knowledge that Chiropractic is a form of care that was not developed in research based medicine. It is therefore a subgroup of CAM healthcare or (Complementary and Alternative Medicine). As this is a type of CAM healthcare, adequate research has not been done to prove that the benefits of Chiropractic treatment are not beyond the explanation of alternative methods (such as placebo). Much of Chiropractic has been developed around the practitioner’s clinical experience and education regarding human anatomy and physiology. Patient feedback has also played a large role in shaping the profession of Chiropractic. This is partly due to the Chiropractic profession not trusting the medical research that has been done regarding our profession as we do not feel it is unbiased or without flaw. Some in the medical community and research community do not support the idea that Chiropractic and other CAM healthcare practices are beneficial to the public and that only medically approved treatments should be a viable options for patients. Chiropractors and other CAM professionals feel that both Traditional (allopathic) and CAM fields are beneficial in giving patients choice and control in their health decision making process. Some of the concerns that part of the medical community and chiropractic community have had disagreements over in the past specifically relate to the theory that Rough Extension-Rotation adjusting of the cervical spine as done by older Chiropractors called (rotary break) is linked to stroke or VBA (a type of neck artery injury). Although the two professions are in the middle of a long standing debate over this topic, Chiropractors are taught to adjust cervical spines (specifically the upper cervical spine) without using this old technique. Modified cervical manipulation has been implemented in this and many Chiropractic offices to take this consideration into account until a final consensus can be reached between the two professions. Please feel free to do your own research, but keep in mind that quality research is often hard to identify. If you want to ask you medical doctor or primary care physician for more information regarding their opinion on Chiropractic care and want them to supply you with their research or evidence to support their claims, please feel free to do so. If you have any question regarding this information please do not initial or sign this form without first asking your Doctor of Chiropractic… not to be confused with an M.D. No Medical Doctors work at this location. They can be found in buildings marked hospital or at medical facilities that do not have the word Chiropractic or Doctor of Chiropractor on the building most of the time. If you fully understand this informed consent and wish to continue, please initial the top of the paragraph, print, sign, and date below.

        Print/sign/Date

        Sorry I added some peppa to this informed consent. It could not be helped. Arguments lacking in pepper are not as spicy and tend to be bland. I will try not to over pepper my arguments though. I hope you guys don’t mind a little pepper, because I tasted a little or maybe a lot of spice in your arguments. And I liked it.

        • That’s not an informed consent form, it’s a polemic. But it does lead me to wonder under what circumstances a chiropractor, whose profession claims to cure virtually all known diseases, would seek the attention of an acupuncturist (ditto) or a homeopath (ditto). Or a homeopath to seek a chiropractor, and so on.

          • “That’s not an informed consent form, it’s a polemic.” FrankO

            You are probably right.

            “But it does lead me to wonder under what circumstances a chiropractor, whose profession claims to cure virtually all known diseases, would seek the attention of an acupuncturist (ditto) or a homeopath (ditto). Or a homeopath to seek a chiropractor, and so on.” FrankO

            Good question. Although, Chiropractors should not be claiming they cure all known disease. Like Bjurn pointed out, Chiropractors claiming to be able to cure everything is out of line.

            1. To learn something new or a new perspective (I like to shadow medical specialists also)
            2. To give more accurate critiques in website conversations
            3. To gain perspective when looking at research
            4. To find new or better ways of helping myself or my patients
            5. To help patients understand what they should expect if they want to try other options (medical or CAM) rather than or in conjunction with Chiropractic
            6. To look for other providers or therapies that I can add to my practice
            7. To figure out which therapies (medical or CAM) work better for me or specific symptoms
            8. To keep me from getting lazy and simply waiting for symptoms to present that may then require more invasive treatments to fix (heart disease, diabetes, etc.)
            9. For fun. I like all of it. (medical and CAM)
            10. To avoid potential dangers (real or theoretical)

      • True.
        Unfortunately the definition of well conducted research seems to be a relative term. If much of research is flawed and possibly misinterpreted, and the majority of high quality “gold standard” RCTs are only affordable to the rich pharmaceutical companies with obvious bias, how can I do anything but take the research for what it is? I can’t justify telling my patients that their personal opinions of improvement are worthless. I can’t justify throwing my clinical experience and opinion down the toilet. I can only take the research into consideration and make my best judgement.

        • @Jeremy
           
          Good quality research is not necessarily expensive. It depends on investigators first defining a protocol that subjects a specific hypothesis, e.g. that chiropractic manipulation can cure a specific disease, to a test that will dispassionately expose the hypothesis to be true or false. The double-blind approach, with a test and a control group, is the best we have to date. The criteria for success and failure must be defined in advance and stuck to rigidly throughout — no post-hoc data mining allowed. The random allocation of patients to test and control groups has to be done in a way that ensures neither patient nor practitioner knows which treatment is being applied. None of this is rocket science, nor does it need to cost huge sums of money.
           
          The main reason pharmaceutical trials cost so much is because, for medicines that actually do things to the body, there is an obvious requirement for huge numbers of tests to be done — quite outwith the basic science of the trial — to check for unexpected side effects. None of this would be needed for tests with CAM.
           
          The persistent bleats from CAM about ‘big pharma’ and huge trial costs sound hollow when you consider the chiropractic business hauls in annual revenues or 12-15 billion dollars in the USA alone!

          • Hi Frank,

            I was just curious – where did you get the 12-15 billion revenue figure from?

            If that was true wouldn’t that mean the 45,000 (approx) chiros working in the US would be earning $266666.67? I can therefore see why it is difficult to get chiros to change the way they practice if they earning that much money.

            N.B the 45,000 chiro figure comes from the Bureau of Labor Statisitcs – http://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/chiropractors.htm

          • @AN Other

            According to the World Federation of Chiropractic, there were 75,000 chiros in the USA in 2012 – the same year as the BLS figure of 45,000. Are the WFC inflating the numbers, do you think?

            Anyway, although I don’t know where FrankO got the $12-15 billion figure from, you are conflating revenue with earnings.

            But this all does raise the issue of how much chiros are spending on research and what they are doing to raise funds, doesn’t it? Any idea?

          • @FrankO

            Good points.

            I am just curious how to have a control group with cervical manipulation (done by hand). How can you give “sham” adjustments with this type of manipulation? I am not saying that this should exclude us from research. I just see logistical issues with potential research given this problem.
            How would you have a double blind study where the practitioners wouldn’t know that they are giving grade 5 manipulations?

          • @ Alan

            I would think that the Bureau of Labour statistics would have the more accurate data. Therefore, the WFC is probably exaggerating about the number of chiros.

            I would say earnings is quite a loose term as it can mean money earned before or after tax. I should have used the term revenue (or turnover), which would mean the amount of money taken in before expenses and tax are deducted. Even then, having a 1/4 million turnover is pretty good going – it just makes me think where did this 12-15 billion figure derive from?

            The only example i know of where chiros have raised money for research is in Denmark, where they take 10% of each patient fee and put that into a research fund. I think that could be easily applied to other countries who have chiros.

            Do you know of any similar scheme where money is directly taken from a profession for research purposes?

          • @management
            We’ve reached the last level of indentation for responses which means this thread will now, once again, look like a disconnected series of comments. Perhaps if the comments could be numbered, so each can refer to a previously numbered comment, it might be simpler to follow the to-and-fro of arguments?
             
            @jeremy
            You’re right that you can’t blind a chiropractor to whether they’re giving real or sham spinal manipulation. So instead you blind the person evaluating the outcome(s) of the therapy. Sham manipulation in the best published trials consists of making movements that look like spinal manipulation but which investigators agree should not be effective.
             
            Another approach, valid for chronic problems in which the claim is only to alleviate symptoms, is a cross-over trial, in which patients who were first randomly assigned to real or sham treatment for a given time then switch to the opposite treatment, after a suitably long intermediate “wash-out” period in which they receive no treatment. The symptoms are evaluated during/after all three phases by someone who is blinded throughout as to which treatment the patient is receiving.

        • Jeremy said:

          the majority of high quality “gold standard” RCTs are only affordable to the rich pharmaceutical companies

          How much does a RCT cost?

          with obvious bias,

          Does the same apply to trials conducted by chiros?

          • @ Alan Henness

            I have no clue how much RCTs cost.

            I think that research done by Chiropractors is absolutely bias. I would love for a third party not invested in either Medical or Chiropractic to test some of this stuff to be honest.

            I hear Naturopaths are thinking of or are thinking of adding Manipulation into their education. I am not sure if this is true, but they may also be bias against the medical profession given they are part of CAM as well.

          • Jeremy said:

            I have no clue how much RCTs cost.

            If you don’t know how much one costs, how do you know “RCTs are only affordable to the rich pharmaceutical companies”?

          • Sorry Alan. I was referencing an argument I previously made using this article as a source.

            http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/24/1/18.full

            “Because this “gold standard” of evidence is rarely available, except in industry-sponsored drug trials, researchers have come to rely on other methods for determining “best evidence,” such as small clinical trials with insufficient statistical power, studies with a nonrandomized control group, other nonrandomized control studies, and, finally, studies without a control group such as case studies or testimonials.”

          • @Jeremy

            You’ve lost me now.

            Do you disagree with any of the following?

            1. Chiropractic (ie whatever makes chiro unique from other treatments) is amenable to RCTs.
            2. Chiros should be conducting high quality RCTs in preference to other methodologies.
            3. It’s in the best interests of the public that this research be done.

            If so, is it being done? If not, why not?

          • @Alan

            Hmmm. It is getting a bit confusing.

            I was basing the idea that the majority of quality “gold standard” RCTs were done by potentially biased pharmaceutical companies based on a quote I took from this article in a previous argument a little further up the page.

            Here is the article link. http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/24/1/18.full

            Here is the direct quote from that article.

            “Because this “gold standard” of evidence is rarely available, except in industry-sponsored drug trials, researchers have come to rely on other methods for determining “best evidence,” such as small clinical trials with insufficient statistical power, studies with a nonrandomized control group, other nonrandomized control studies, and, finally, studies without a control group such as case studies or testimonials.”

            My interpretation of this quote was that the majority of “gold standard” research is affordable only to the pharmaceutical companies who I am sure are biased in favor of their products.
            My interpretation may be off, but this quote still implies that much of research falls below this gold standard due to financial limitations.

            This idea leads me to conclude that defining the role research plays and how heavy its role is in EBM must be based on how well the current “best evidence” is.

            People opposed to Chiropractic often state it is a religion based on philosophy over science. I could argue that holding todays “best evidence” as infallible is also choosing to “believe” in research beyond its limitations. I choose to keep my professional opinion and patient opinion as important when making decisions regarding patient care. I am not yet comfortable with joining a more religious perspective and holding our “best evidence” to the level some want me to.

            I may also be biased in this way, because I am currently an atheist. I grew up Baptist and my step-father is a Baptist preacher. Not only do I think the King James Version of the bible has potential flaws due to it being translated from the original texts, I don’t believe the original text to be the word of god and therefore infallible. I consider the bible to be an intelligent collection of stories to help populations live together. I think that the bible was important for shaping some cultures who wanted to grow beyond a small population where others could keep a close eye and wrong doing had quick consequences.

            I think the Bible and religion itself has served a greater purpose of helping small civilizations grow into large civilizations. Although the bible and religion has served a great purpose, I do not trust it as infallible as it was written by humans. It is intelligent. It has great life lessons, but I cannot see it as more than that. I cannot make myself believe that it is actually holy in the sense that it is perfect beyond my reason and logic.

            Similarly, I cannot make myself trust todays “best evidence” beyond my own logic or reasoning. I cannot make myself “believe” in current “best evidence” against my own judgement. I cannot make myself ignore my own opinion and the opinion of my patients over the research of today. When people ask me to do this in any aspect of my life, it evokes a sympathetic response.

            Likewise though to be fair, I don’t think people should hold the philosophy of Chiropractic to the level of infallibility either. I approach everything with skepticism until I have tried it myself and formed my own conclusions. I know that some want me to believe that my own opinions and thoughts cannot be trusted. I know that some want me to say that my patients opinions cannot be trusted.

            I can’t live with that. I can’t live with the idea that I have to give up the trust I have in my own logic and reasoning, and that I should completely put my trust in the hands of researchers and the medical field. I don’t care how smart someone is, they are still human.

            ……….. Anyways,
            I hope this clarifies.

            oh yea.

            I do not disagree with your 1-3 bullet points.

            I think Chiropractic schools are trying to do research.

            I think Chiropractic schools are having trouble raising MONEY for research considering we do not get much money in the way of grants in our field from what my research teacher told me before I graduated. I think having a mandatory 1% tax that goes to research, as I read in another post, is a great idea for our profession.

          • The question simply is, if chiros are at all interested in good research, why has the money not already been raised and the research been or being done? The 1% levy could raise $120 million per annum in the US alone. Why is this not happening?

        • I get your point, but seriously you don´t get it, if reason jumped up and bite you in the nose, you would still not get it…and thats why people like you should not touch people… find another type of work that have nothing with healthcare to do… sorry! not trying to be an asshole here… but after all of this discussion I have seen and the way you reason things… there is not much more to say than… you will just not get it…sorry!

          • This is a 2 part reply.

            @Alan Henness – Chiropractic research.

            We are doing research currently. I think the schools have done a good job of making individual Chiropractors aware of the need. Many of us donate money back to our schools, and I think some of our mandatory Continuing Education seminar money goes back towards research. We also join state and national organizations that I believe donate money towards research. I am not in research, so I am not completely sure how they are funded. Chiropractic schools may also get some grant money. I think we are or were behind on research efforts due to funding, but my experience is that today’s Chiropractic profession is making research a top priority.

            @EvidenceBasedPractice – wrote that I don’t get it

            Thank you. Your post was so lazy, that I think you actually made me look better by posting it.

          • Well, it’d certainly be good to see research results that are able to substantiate the claims made by chiros, but I can’t see that happening – I see little enthusiasm for any of it, yet chiros plough on against the tide of current evidence.

  • Hey Guys. I know I have gone a little crazy with my posts being so numerous and long. I will give you guys a break from me for a little bit.
    I just want to leave with this final thought.

    If it is true that traditional medical care is based heavily on current research and 50% of that research is potentially “false” due to the problems I discussed previously, is it then fair to say that todays medical health care system is based on 50% pseudoscience? If this is the case, when does medical healthcare join CAM (complimentary and alternative medicine)? If medical healthcare joins CAM, What is left but CAM? ………… BOOM!

    P.S. “Only a Sith deals in absolutes” Obi Wan Kenobi

    • @Jeremy
       
      Where do you get the figure of 50% or research being false? In any case, the great thing about science is that it is self-correcting. If you think people on this blog unreasonably pick on Big Snakeoil proponents, you should see the extent to which medical scientists wade into published medical research; particularly clinical trials. Those practising medicine want to use the approaches (prevention, diagnosis, treatment) that are best supported by research, which is why they get angry when drug or appliance companies are caught trying to bend evidence. When a medical practice of any kind is clearly shown to be of no demonstrable value, it is dropped. That’s what ‘evidence-based medicine’ is all about.
       
      Sadly, different criteria seem to apply to the many and various forms of medical quackery. Once something has been reasonably shown to be of no medical benefit, its devotees fight tooth and nail not to let it drop. They continue, often for centuries, to proclaim that what they do is reasonable and valid, even when what they do has been demonstrated, over and over, to be based on reality-defying principles and of no clinical value. That’s why they end up being called ‘complementary’ and ‘alternative’: these are terms of derision, not approval. I’m afraid your attempt to suggest that medicine and snakeoil merge into one is founded on sand, not on reality.

    • “Only a Sith deals in absolutes” Obi Wan Kenobi

      As a chiropractor deals in the bogus.

  • I am so confused having seen a chiropractor previously feeling the physical therapy was going nowhere. Now I have a 12 year old with Tourette’s whose current tic is to pound his ears on his shoulders or throw his head back and then forth with great force. He is already on medications for this and other issues. He felt the pain was less after 4 adjustments but now his father sent me this link to “prove” me wrong. I don’t want him on pain medications or more medications of any type so is my son wrong, just 12 and being convinced by a chiro who actually has a treatment plan with a beginning and end and no wild promises but is on the supplement bandwagon which is a whole other topic. Do I stop taking him, who would I take him to see as far as a medical doctor who can do something to relieve and prevent spinal injuries (my greatest fear) from his current tics. I feel hopeless, confused, don’t have hours and hours to pour over every research study done out there. Who do you trust when they are able to obtain a license and practice???? This is all giving me a headache…

    • Of course the chiropractor has a treatment to offer. They never do unnecessary work. If they do not need the money, they do not offer to do it.
      (S)he will get paid for anything (s)he does and any improvements, however small (s)he will convince you were due to his/her ministrations, so you are happy with your investment and will recommend more to come and get “adjusted”.
      If no improvement, there is always another customer around the corner willing to try. And the money is in the bank anyway.
      If you go along with the “treatment plan” you may note that the chiro will be constantly reinforcing your faith in the treatment by his/her talk and demeanour. (S)he will use suggestive and soothing technique to help you and your son relax. This is guaranteed to give at least an impression of improvement.
      Ah, well. The choice is yours.
      But before you decide, just read the wikipedia pages on Chiropractic and on DD Palmer. That should be enough to help normally gifted people understand the basis and nature of chiropractic. Everything that is written there can be confirmed in one way or another. Most statements are supported by references.

  • I would suggest you speak with your pediatrician to address the fear of your son injuring his neck due to his condition to start with. Then I would ask your pediatrician and chiropractor to communicate with each other regarding your son’s case. I have not jumped on the supplement bandwagon.
    I hope this helps you.

  • “Quackery”? What the hell is wrong with you people… Chiropractic care is pragmatic, definitely healing and true. Anything other than that and you’re seeing the wrong practitioner.

    After my 2nd visit my spine was more aligned than its ever been and the toxins that were released from the terrible posture of my spine rang true hours after the adjustments. I’m talkin’ diarrhoea… among other symptoms of detoxification. Which is a sure sign there is healing taking place.

    Watch this video and then please go back to your pessimistic, skeptical holes from whence you came. THANK YOU.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IU9emzBDRA

    • ROFL!

      Yup. It’s still quackery. And if you can’t understand why, please read Prof Ernst’s other posts here.

    • Yup, I see the power of suggestion. Anything else?

    • “…my spine was more aligned than its ever been and the toxins that were released from the terrible posture of my spine rang true hours after the adjustments”.
      Please enlighten us: what toxins? For how long was your spine more aligned than it’s ever been? Do you have the faintest idea how the body works?

    • @Jack,
      Though I don’t believe Jack is your real name; it is more likely Ian Rossborough, or some stooge put up to this by him.

      That ridiculous video is on Rossborough’s website; http://www.chiropracticexcellence.com.au/.

      Rossborough is an anti-vaxer who makes all of the same stupid claims about mercury, deaths from real medicine, permanent disabilities from HPV vaccine, and many other nonsenses. He advertises with testimonials from his victims in contravention of the Chiropractic Board of Australia guidelines. All-in-all, an unsavoury character.

      Now, the claims from above;
      “After my 2nd visit my spine was more aligned than its ever been ”
      How would anyone know? This is just dumb and doesn’t require any further rebuttal.

      “the toxins that were released from the terrible posture of my spine rang true hours after the adjustments.”
      This is even English or sensible, so refer to the point above.

      “I’m talkin’ diarrhoea”
      At least Jack got that right; he is talking absolute shit.

      “among other symptoms of detoxification.”
      Aahh, detox, that long debunked notion from alt-meds.

      “Which is a sure sign there is healing taking place.”
      A sure sign of what for what purpose? Refer to point one, again.

      Chiropractors claim to be well educated, however, this shows the opposite.

  • If the patient gives consent for the video then it is a testimonial. If the patient hasn’t given consent, including all the people in the background, then it violates patient confidentiality. Either way it is unacceptable! Rossborough has also featured in one of Reasonable Hanks blogs on anti-vax chiro’s so I am totally unimpressed! I have had a discussion with a chiro who has a practice not far from him and asked if he has talked to him. He just rolled his eyes and said “he doesn’t listen!”

  • You people really believe this guy??? He has not done any research whatsoever about what Chiropractic is. Everything he has said on here have been lies. He is disgusting and I am very sad for his patients.

    • So, Denise, what, precisely, are the lies you perceive?

      • He has not done any research whatsoever about what Chiropractic is.”

        Quoting the prof from above;
        “Preston H. Long is a licensed chiropractor from Arizona. His professional career has spanned nearly 30 years. In addition to treating patients, he has testified at about 200 trials, performed more than 10,000 chiropractic case evaluations, and served as a consultant to several law enforcement agencies. He is also an associate professor at Bryan University, where he teaches in the master’s program in applied health informatics.”

        If he doesn’t know by know, when do you think he might?

        “Everything he has said on here have been lies.”

        Based on what? Your say so or do you have a credible source?

        “He is disgusting and I am very sad for his patients.”

        Ah yes, the personal slur. It just would not be complete without a personal attack. Did you take a Bex, have a cup of tea, and a little lie down to expunge the disgust?

  • Some chiropractic theories may be off base but people be acting like MDs can’t make mistakes. I think dermatology has to be one of the most inaccurate sciences out there. I saw 4 dermatologists and 1 regular doctor for a skin condition that was eating my *** up. I was given 3 different diagnoses. 1 of those diagnoses permanently ****ed me up because after the dermatologist misdiagnosed my condition after his observant 30 second inspection I was given this garbage drug called Kenalog which is a steroid injection. If you don’t believe it’s garbage look up all the people trying to file a class action lawsuit against this drug by Google Kenalog class action lawsuit. Anyways, within one week of being injected with this garbage I blew out my calf and my lower back. I tried to sue both the doctor and the drug but it’s almost impossible to file medical malpractice in right wing states. Theoretically I had the right to sue since I was misdiagnosed and said misdiagnosis lead to injury. So…..now I have been seeing doctors and chiropractors about my back injury that was caused by the esteemed medical industry. Let me go back and discuss one of the side effects of Kenalog steroid and that’s tendon rupture. I’ve seen a couple spine specialists regarding said back injury. Here’s what I’ve come to conclude, if it doesn’t deal with the discs in the back they don’t care. Although most back injuries are due to ligament damage (from Internet research) they don’t pay attention to that. If it’s musculoskeletal they send you to a physical therapist, who by the way does the same back popping that a chiropractor does, although they say for different reasons. Currently I’m being treated for a misaligned spine and the ligament damage that caused my misaligned spine. Yes, the misaligned spine shows up on X rays and also shows up when my back seizes up from delivering heavy stuff for my job.
    From my experience if I have a musculoskeletal injury I’m better off seeing a chiropractor and an osteopath who does prolotherapy. One to align my back and the other to inject prp to rebuild injured tissue to hold by back in the proper alignment.

  • Here is what a do know from my experience with my chiropractor:
    1. He still has his Grey’s Anatomy Book in his office.
    2. He plainly tells all his patients “I am not here to treat sore backs and stiff necks, even though that may be a benefit of my services” “My concern is with your spinal alignment since the nerves of your body control all its functions. By ensuring that your nerves are free from subluxations, your body can more effectively heal itself regardless of whether your other doctors’ are needed or not. Whatever they do will be aided by a better functioning nervous system.”
    3. He X-rays his patients ONCE when they first come to see him. He swears never to waste our money doing that again unless we experience some sort of serious spinal trama (i.e. car wreck).
    4. He does spinal adjustments only…..don’t know what those other services the author was referring to are.
    5. After months of head pain & vision problems and the many referrals of my wife to doctors who couldn’t figure out what was wrong, so they referred her to more expensive doctors who still didn’t know but put her on powerful drugs and then sent her to even more expensive doctors who still didn’t know but put her on even more powerful drugs with even more powerful side effect and then sent her to more expensive……………..(of course all these doctors were well versed experts on “the body of knowledge related to health, disease, and health care that has been widely accepted by the scientific community” and had performed multiple x-rays, CT scans, and an MRI; we decided to try our now chiropractor who “friends” had been begging us to see for months (seeing my wife’s pain & suffering at the hands of the “professionals”). HE takes one X-Ray and shows us that her neck has a sideways curvature. After a few months of seeing him, she is mostly pain free and her vision problems have gone away.
    I guess we found out the hard way that the real quacks are the pill pushers collecting their kickbacks from the drug companies & the diagnostic/imaging/radio-logical health service providers while also collecting their expensive fees.

    • @TincanJoey,

      “1. He still has his Grey’s Anatomy Book in his office.”

      Did he show the section on spinal subluxations? See point 2.

      “2. He plainly tells all his patients “I am not here to treat sore backs and stiff necks, even though that may be a benefit of my services” “My concern is with your spinal alignment since the nerves of your body control all its functions. By ensuring that your nerves are free from subluxations, your body can more effectively heal itself regardless of whether your other doctors’ are needed or not. Whatever they do will be aided by a better functioning nervous system.””

      Since no other chiropractor has ever been able to identify a spinal subluxation, would you please provide the contact details of your unique chiro? I think every other chiro on the planet would be ecstatic to see what no one has ever been able to see, until now.

      “3. He X-rays his patients ONCE when they first come to see him. He swears never to waste our money doing that again unless we experience some sort of serious spinal trama (i.e. car wreck).”

      He has wasted your money by requiring money for pointless treatments.

      “4. He does spinal adjustments only…..don’t know what those other services the author was referring to are.”

      That is because chiropractic is premised on spinal adjustments.

      “5. After months of head pain & vision problems and the many referrals of my wife to doctors who couldn’t figure out what was wrong, so they referred her to more expensive doctors who still didn’t know but put her on powerful drugs and then sent her to even more expensive doctors who still didn’t know but put her on even more powerful drugs with even more powerful side effect and then sent her to more expensive……………..(of course all these doctors were well versed experts on “the body of knowledge related to health, disease, and health care that has been widely accepted by the scientific community” and had performed multiple x-rays, CT scans, and an MRI; we decided to try our now chiropractor who “friends” had been begging us to see for months (seeing my wife’s pain & suffering at the hands of the “professionals”). HE takes one X-Ray and shows us that her neck has a sideways curvature. After a few months of seeing him, she is mostly pain free and her vision problems have gone away.”

      Did the chiro take another X-ray to show your wife’s neck was no longer curved? I suspect not because, in all likelihood (ie, 100%), it will still be curved.

      Do you not see the problem in your last sentence; “after a few months of seeing him”? The natural progression of the condition may be the cause of her pain-free status, not someone who manipulated her spine. I also suspect the some other issue involved if, as you say, medical specialists could not find anything?

      “I guess we found out the hard way that the real quacks are the pill pushers collecting their kickbacks from the drug companies & the diagnostic/imaging/radio-logical health service providers while also collecting their expensive fees.”

      Are you sure you aren’t a chiropractor trolling this thread, or, perhaps, a conspiracy theorist?

  • 1. and that proves… what? That he is trying to impress his patients customers perhaps?
    2. Too bad none of this is true. No one has been able to demonstrate the subluxations by any objective means. They were invented out of the blue by an uneducated magnetic healer by the name of Palmer and have never been proven in any way.
    3. Why do they even perform the first X-ray? Chiropractors claim they can feel the subluxations so they shouldn’t have to radiate the patients at all in order to perform their adjustments.
    4. That’s how chiropractors perform chiropractic. Other services are not chiropractic.
    5. How do you know it was the ministrations of the chiro. Have you never contemplated why chiropractors are only good at things that improve over time? Most things do.

  • Well I have scrolled through this entire “Debate” per say to absolutely no avail. The age old argument between the medical and chiropractic field’s I see haven’t changed. And it never will. In the perfect world, there would be no “bad” doctors or “bad” chiropractors, but their are….BOTH. My medical doctor is a personal friend of mine. His main concern is the health care of his patients. You ever been in a doctor’s office where you didn’t wait? I do, every visit. He schedule’s his appointments an hour apart. Money is not his main concern. I work for a Chiropractor. He is also my friend. Is he a Quack? Absolutely not. He is passionate about his profession because he helps people live a more meaningful and functional life through his care. Does chiropractic work? I don’t care about 2 million study’s in either field. I’ve seen people that had to be carried into our office because their pain was so bad they could barely move, much less walk. I’ve seen the same people walk out. Yes, chiropractic adjustments work. Does manipulating the bones in our body help prevent disease? I don’t know. Can anything my medical doctor do for me, other than advise me on how to live a more health lifestyle, help prevent disease? NO……..He can only determine that something is going on that is not normal with my body. Majority of the time if it’s not to a detrimental point he will prescribe me a drug that will or may help with the situation. So, as mentioned earlier, the debate continue’s. I’m not going to stop seeing either one because I have recieved positive benefits from both.
    My dad always told me, if it aint broke…..don’t fix it. If it’s broke, fix it.
    I have been fixed by both.
    Next argument……………………….:)

    • @Rick Moncrief,

      I was tempted to give a logical reasoned response to the points you make, however, the post is so full of errors of language and logic, I can’t see the point. So, I will answer you with a logical fallacy, an ad hominem, instead; there is no evidence you are intelligent enough to recognise a logical response.

      “per say”? Please, if you want to pretend to be clever, don’t stuff up something so simple?

  • The nastiness from the anti-chiropractics on this thread speaks VOLUMES to me.

    • @Elise Curran

      That is your view, most likely based upon infatuation.

      When being nice and didactic is not enough to deter deceptive and dangerous health-practices (Chiropractic has repeatedly been shown to be both), things get to the point where the deluded perceive themselves being at the receiving end of a nasty assault on their indoctrination.

      Do you have anything constructive to add to this discussion?

  • Whatever. I know that I got a migraine last friday that I could not get rid of with pain pills, back massages, high doses of ibuprofin, tried everything. Nonstop pain for nearly 5 days. So finally broke down and called my chiro yesterday morning for an adjustment before the holidays were ruined. Feeling great.

    • And how can you prove it wasn’t just the walking involved in going to the chiro’s office that really did the trick?

    • What would have happened if you’d not been manipulated by a chiro?

    • Lord, people, I will just address all of you. First, I am a lawyer. Lawyers and doctors don’t exactly get along very well, if you didn’t already know that. I would be the first person to say someone is a quack or “practices” terrible medicine. Second, years ago I had the opportunity to compare my spinal xrays both before and after a series of treatments. Pictures don’t lie. Third, I graduated summa cum laude for undergrad and cum laude for law, so I’m not exactly stupid. I also cannot be hypnotized, by the way. Oh, and what would have happened? Probably still have a headache since the ibuprofin wasn’t working and I’m out of pain pills (that MDs won’t hardly even prescribe anymore). But my back was so out of whack that it is trying to slip back to where it had been (I have terrible posture but I’m straight after adjustments without even having to try), my bad for not keeping up with my monthly maintenance, so will return after the holidays.

    • Thou doth protest too much, methinks.

      • Thou doth have no arguments or evidence, methinks.

        • I’ve been reading more of this thread…. y’all sound like a broken record to all the people speaking out against your theory. Can we have some new material, please?

          • Can we have some idea of what you believe is wrong. Please try to be specific.

          • Gladly. You cannot prove that I am incorrect, because I have presented evidence to the contrary. You all attempt to shift the burden of proof by suggesting that perhaps walking to the chiropractor cured my migraine headache, or perhaps it cured itself and I am confusing cause and effect, or perhaps it’s the placebo effect. But since by definition you cannot prove that any of these things are correct, yet insist instead that I must prove they are incorrect, you are engaging in an argument from ignorance. You cannot prove a negative. Look it up. Alternatively, quit telling people they never learned critical thinking.

          • Oh dear. Please read up about logical fallacies, argumentation in general and science and evidence.

          • Yah okay, I will get right on that …. LMFAO. By the way, you don’t use a rake to dig a hole. Or what is the other saying? Something about not bringing a club to a gunfight? Oh, as further response, in case these innuendos are lost on you, see my latest reply to the thread in general. Believe that ties into your science and evidence retort and wraps the package up nicely… all Christmasy, as it were.

          • PS, you have no skin in this game, what are you, anyway? Like a superpac for doctors? Or did some “alternative medicine” person (which I refuse to call a chiropractor, thats insane, but trying to speak in a language with which you are accustomed) done you or yours wrong or something?

          • All that gets you another ‘oh dear’, I’m afraid.

            However, if you do have any substantive argument to make, please feel free. Backed up with reasoning and good evidence, of course.

          • We need to work on either your reading comprehension or your short term memory. I told you. I had a migraine for five days. I went to the chiropractor. He adjusted my neck and back. It immediately disappeared. Asked and answered. Again.

          • You really do need to look up – and learn – all about logical fallacies, particularly (in this case) post hoc ergo propter hoc.

          • I already addressed that. So you are saying, I have a migraine. For days. VERY unusual for me. I walk into the office. I still have a migraine. I lay on the table. I still have a migraine. He cracks (he hates it when I say that) my back and my neck. I sit up and its gone. Did my sitting up from a lying position miraculously cure me? Come on. Res ipsa loquitur.

          • Good grief. It’s still an unverified and unverifiable anecdote.

  • I can only say after reading this report, that the man who wrote it Mr. Ernst, was obviously pissed off at someone who had ridiculed him. Mr. Ernst you are an idiot and a back stabber to say the least. And I am just an everyday 64 year old woman , who stubbled across your ridiculous article. Suck it up and try to be a man.

  • @Lynn

    Alternatively, Prof Ernst is pissed of at chiros who mislead people and based his article on good evidence.

    However, perhaps you could say what it is you find ridiculous?

  • What I find MOST interesting about this diatribe, is that the God Complex appears to be a worldwide phenomenon. Here I thot it was just an arrogant American MD affliction.

    • Nope. I’ve checked back through your comments, Sherrie, and you’ve failed to say what it was that Prof Ernst got wrong. Perhaps you could tell us?

      You have, however, thrown around insults, ad hominems and a host of other irrelevant ‘arguments’ and fallacious opinions.

      • ??? I thot all Ernst did was regurgitate Preston H. Long??? Short of his personal comments, of course. I would presume, without taking the time to read or reread ALL of Ernst’s comments (as to me, hoping I was better at law than reading x-rays…. not in your category of insults or ad hominems I guess?), I am sure I stated plenty that he got wrong.

        • Well, you commented under Lynne who was referring to Prof Ernst. However, if you were referring to Preston Long, the same question can be asked: what, precisely, did he get wrong?

          • Oh, I think Long probably got some right and some wrong, some partially right, some partially wrong, all typical when trying to make generalizations. Will have to go back through it to answer you PRECISELY. Must have been Ernst that got my dander up; all I was trying to do was answer my dad’s question regarding what a chiro does for me, exactly, and all I find is these hateful sites by MDs saying chiros are quacks. And I am still awaiting a response as to your skin in the game, btw. MD Superpac? Paralyzed your mother?

    • Every time I’ve had a migraine it has ended of its own accord: each onset was slow; each termination was quick; only the severity and the duration varied. My post hoc reasoning is that migraines, colds, and many other conditions follow a similar pattern, which is of course also backed by volumes of clinical evidence.

      Had I instead used a treatment or remedy while I had the condition, it would be strongly tempting to believe that it caused the termination. The correlation between the treatment and the cure would always be 1, in other words, this statement would always be true: If I use treatment T for condition C then the condition will terminate. However, the following conclusion is invalid: Therefore, treatment T cures condition C. Correlation does not imply causation, *especially* when the sample size is one (aka an anecdote)!

      I find it beyond belief that a lawyer would construct multiple fallacy-ridden arguments to support their belief that a branch of alt-med is medically efficacious, which carries the implication that the benefit outweighs the risks.

      • Oh thats rich. You have an issue regarding the RISKS. I’d love to see some statistics on the number of people MDs have maimed or killed vs. same for chiros.

        • a cough syrup is also less risky than chemotherapy – that’s why, in medicine, it is not the absolute risk of a therapy that is important but its risk/benefit ration.

        • Sherrie, You are not able to weigh the risk-benefit ratio for chiropractic because it is not subjected to the strict reporting standards that are required in both science- and evidence-based medicine. Being a lawyer, you will of course be fully aware of this despicable double standard.

          • If I am unable to, then you are also unable to. This argument is becoming very circular.

          • Good grief. There is – at best – scant evidence of benefit from chiropractic manipulations. There is some evidence of harm but there are no universal AE reporting systems for chiropractic so we do not know the full extent of the harms caused. For all treatments, it is the balance of benefit against harm that has to be weighed. For chiropractic manipulations, the precautionary principle therefore goes against chiro.

      • Hi Pete,

        I’ve got a few questions for you: let’s use colds as an example. Let’s say that every time you catch cold (condition C), the symptoms last for 7 days. After treatment T, symptoms resolve in 12 hours. Let’s say you find this to be true whether T is applied on day one or day 4, etc. – resolved in 12 hours.

        Let’s say you can duplicate this on others – same 12 hour resolution, regardless of where in the cycle you administer T. Let’s say you start asking around – and others have the same experience. Let’s say you start looking for explanations, and the only ones you find are from “outdated” medical texts that use a medical model totally different from the modern model – but accurately describe your observations and experiences.

        So my questions: At what point do you move on from “this is coincidence” to “this is placebo”. At what point do you move from “this is placebo” to “this works for some reason”?

        And, after duplicating this pretty consistently – at what point does saying “this is coincidence/placebo” change from skepticism to superstition?

        • I think I can probably answer this one for Pete, help him out a bit …. at the point which people no longer will go to the doctor for a cold (condition C), because they choose instead the voodoo mystery treatment T. 😉

          • Sherrie F wrote: “What I find MOST interesting about this diatribe, is that the God Complex appears to be a worldwide phenomenon.”

            Answering questions on my behalf being a wonderful exemplar of “the God Complex” to which you were referring. I have not appointed you as my lawyer, and never will, so cease and desist from answering questions on my behalf forthwith.

          • (Dryly) Mr. Attkins, that response purporting to be on your behalf was tongue in cheek; do note the winky face.

          • (Comically) Ms. F, you seem unable to comprehend not just science and critical thinking skills, but also British satire.

          • Lawyers tend to not find veiled threats amusing, regardless whether they are intended to be satirical. That said, I recently spent a year in london and adore British satire.

          • Dear Sherrie, I can assure you that I never issue veiled threats. I’m delighted that you have visited London and that you adore British satire, which is an acquired taste; and like our fine traditional ales [beers], it doesn’t travel well across the globe! Our banter should never be conflated with the modern “Bantaar, innit!”: a pathetic excuse for deplorable behaviour. The best place to fully learn this essential difference is in a backstreet Glaswegian or Irish pub.

            Despite our disagreements, I sincerely wish you a Happy New Year and I thank you for your comments,
            Pete

        • Hi jm, from the previous discussions that we’ve had (which ended highly amicably with mutual respect, understanding, and sincere kindness towards each other) I have no wish to be argumentative or in any way disrespectful towards you. Please bear this in mind as you read my reply…

          A common cold typically lasts for seven days. A cold that resolves within, say, 12 hours, is caused by an infectious agent (viral, bacterial, or otherwise toxic to humans) that is highly atypical of the group of viral agents that are classified under the category of viral agents well known to be the direct cause of the common cold. Although the common cold rarely results in death, it causes widespread suffering and misery to those who catch it, and widespread loss of employee productivity to employers. Obviously, we all wish that there currently exists, and/or hope that there will exist, a medically efficacious quick cure/remedy to this and many other global problems. Personally, I don’t think that if there are currently medically efficacious remedies for the common cold it would be possible for governments, religions, and the science community to keep it under wraps. Neither would keeping the cure under wraps serve their vested interests. If there is a branch of alt-med that can be clearly shown to be medically efficacious that also has benefits that, on average, clearly outweigh its risks of harm, then I think it fair to say that even hardcore skeptics would embrace it with open arms, jump for joy, and would likely nominate its inventors/discoverers for a Nobel Prize. However, we must never forget that the promotors of alt-med, such as homeopathy, not just have little evidence for its efficacy, we have overwhelming volumes of empirical evidence to show that its harms largely outweigh its benefits — nobody should embrace this nearly 200 years of known quackery with open arms. I think this is shameful, and it doesn’t bode well for our desire to create a truly caring humanity, both now and for the future.

          Your ending questions are, I think, profoundly important to 21st Century medicine:
          “At what point do you move on from ‘this is coincidence’ to ‘this is placebo’. At what point do you move from ‘this is placebo’ to ‘this works for some reason’?

          And, after duplicating this pretty consistently – at what point does saying ‘this is coincidence/placebo’ change from skepticism to superstition?”

          I’ve already written a very long comment and it would not be prudent for me to write an essay-length reply via Edzard’s blog. I invite you to read this excellent article by David Colquhoun “Placebo effects are weak: regression to the mean is the main reason ineffective treatments appear to work”:
          http://www.dcscience.net/2015/12/11/placebo-effects-are-weak-regression-to-the-mean-is-the-main-reason-ineffective-treatments-appear-to-work/

          As always, jm, sending my very best wishes to you and your family,
          Pete

          • Hi Pete,

            I used the example of a cold because you mentioned it along with migraines. I’ve never had a migraine, so I picked colds. In retrospect, I should have picked a different ‘condition C’ for this topic. Or just kept it as a generic “Condition C”.

            My main interest is related to your comment “Had I instead used a treatment or remedy while I had the condition, it would be strongly tempting to believe that it caused the termination.”

            If you repeat the same treatment, for the same condition, with the same results…how many times before it ceases to be coincidence? For you personally – not as a “Treatment T has been proven to work for Condition C” type of thing. (When I mentioned placebo, I meant in a personal, psychosomatic way, not a test/control way.)

            If you got on a treatment table with condition C (self-limiting), and it was gone when you get off the table…the first time – meh. Twice…coincidence? Three times…weird. Twenty times…?? It’s hard to believe that you would have that kind of coincidental timing a couple dozen (or even a dozen) times. Unless you were really, really, really lucky.

            As you said, this is not meant to be argumentative or disrespectful – I value your opinion on this, especially since you’ve had a fair amount of experience receiving a variety of treatments. And at some point, we’ll have to dig deeper into colds :). ’Tis the season and all.

          • Hi jm. During my childhood I naturally assumed that each practitioner I was taken to was an expert in their specific area of health care: a dentist is for our teeth; an osteopath is for our skeleton and posture; an optician is for our eyes; a psychic tells us about our past lives and our future; some other types of practitioner remove blockages in vital energy (life force); a homeopath prescribes medicines that are much safer and more effective than those prescribed by a GP. I believed that all these practitioners cured problems and illness, and improve our quality of life. I was also taught that if I did not get better, it was my fault: I was either not doing what I’d been instructed to do by the practitioner; or I was resisting the treatment by putting up a mental block / my faulty thinking.

            During much of my adult life I remained certain that alt-med was efficacious because, after visiting a practitioner I always felt better, which in turn confirmed my belief. I could list several branches of alt-med that convinced me of their efficacy during the first treatment session. After, say, tens of treatments by the practitioner it became very obvious to me that it was far more than a really lucky coincidence. So, yes, I have loads of first-hand experience of this correlation as a patient. It doesn’t properly answer your question about self-limiting conditions because my conditions are not self-limiting.

            My feeling better after each alt-med treatment not only reinforced my belief in the treatment, my feedback to the practitioner also reinforced the practitioner’s belief in their treatment modality. Perhaps an apt scientific term for this is a “positive feedback loop”. The problem with positive feedback loops is that they inevitably result in the system either getting stuck at the maxima or minima of its range, or cyclically alternating between the maxima and minima of its range. An oscillator is an incredibly useful application of a carefully tuned positive feedback loop. Positive feedback loops are the last thing we want in systems of health care; we need their counterpart, a negative feedback loop that allows the system to update itself in the light of new empirical evidence and to filter out sporadic anecdotal evidence.

            Gosh, these important things are so difficult to discuss meaningfully and openly via a comment thread! If we were having this discussion sitting by a log fire, and if I remember correctly, drinking a fine whisky, I’m sure it would be mutually beneficial and therapeutic. We wouldn’t need an RCT to verify our experience 🙂

            Thank you for your questions, they have helped me to reflect on my past experiences and to perhaps in the future, reflect on them with less sorrow.

          • Hi Pete,

            Thanks for that – and you’re right, the blog comment format can be…challenging. But you’re consistently and admirably rising to the challenge!

            And, the fire & whisky are ready and waiting…

          • Thank you very much for your kind words, jm. I don’t have a website or any social media accounts therefore I’m unable to provide a means by which we can further our meaningful discussions. I’d rather not publicly state my email address for, I think, similar reasons that you would not wish to reveal yours. If you ever visit England during the months of Winter then we shall indeed find a way of sitting by a log fire and chatting while sipping some fine whisky.

            From our discussions, I strongly feel that your successes in helping some people with their health problems is unlikely to be caused by the treatment modality [modalities] that you use, and is very likely to be the inevitable result of your sincere caring, kindness, empathy, and compassion towards those people — an increasingly rare commodity/talent/gift in the modern world. You have helped to improve my ways of thinking and my quality of life just via your comments, not via the treatment modalities that you promote / engage in, for which I sincerely thank you.

            Kindest regards and very best wishes for the New Year,
            Pete

        • “Cold” is one of the favourite subjects for make-believe healing because it is not a single disease but a collection of symptoms.
          How often have we not seen this kind of anecdote:

          I felt a bad cold coming on and immediately took a dose of X and the next day it was gone

          Feel free to replace with the woo of your fancy.

          The common cold is a viral condition can be caused b any number of different viri and present in many ways. Some resolve quickly others take several days. Different patients can display different progress for the same virus so while one of the family is bedridden for days, another can fight the same virus overnight, if his immune system has the resources (no, I don’t mean scraping the skin or cracking the spine 🙂 ).
          “Cold”-symptoms however, are very often not caused by virus but by other factors such as dry air starting an irritation in the mucous membranes, a very common occurrence in frosty climate or in airliners, especially if you have the air-inlet open and spewing super-dry air on you. Allergies or irritating dust particles are also a common causes of “cold”-symptoms. In such cases the symptoms often disappear very fast again.
          Woomongers like “jm” love healing the “Cold”. They can tell you that

          If you come to me with your cold, I will perform this wonderful, ancient, energy modulating magic (…or whatever. In “jm”‘s case scrape your skin all blemished or put suction cups to make round suckmarks) on you that will let the big bad cold go away much quicker.

          The woomongers only notice the customers who return and tell them how wonderful it worked, the “cold” was already better the day after and so forth.
          The one’s who do not get miraculously better usually never return and the woomonger is happily unaware of his failures. If they come back to complain, the woomonger has all kinds of alternate explanations, often blaming the customer. An example of this is the homeopaths who always find something mysterious that has ruined the effect. Coffee is a common “cause”. If the customer got worse before becoming better it’s called “healing crisis”, a term used by many kinds of quacks.

          Another favourite condition for magical healing is “migraine” because headaches (most headaches are not migraine) are extremely common and (practically) always self-limiting. They are also extremely stress related, which is good for business because it is very easy for a good “healer” to soothe the patient, get her relaxed and make her feel better right away. They wouldn’t need do the magic theatrical trick but it helps the suggestive effect.

          Yes, there are many ways to make a “cold” get better in only one week instead of seven days as usual 🙂

  • Gentlemen: It would appear that we are simply going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Cheers.

  • In response to #19.

    I’m not even sure what the chiropractic licensing board is used for… maybe as an ILLUSION of some kind of protection or help when one has been injured by a chiropractor. They certainly didn’t help me in any way with my complaint of injury due to a chiropractor’s incompetence and negligence. Even the secretary at the NCCB’s office told me he would probably just get a slap on the hand, after he caused a TFC tear in my wrist, which cost nearly $60,000 in medical bills!! He didn’t pay one dime on it, but I had to pay $10,000 out of my own pocket. I’m still making monthly payments on services for the two surgeries I had to have, to repair the damage caused by that chiropractor.

    The chiropractor simply LIED in the hearing saying (basically) that he didn’t know what I was talking about, and that was good enough for a decision to be made that he was innocent. There was only 1 real chiropractic board member there, and he didn’t feel like my complaint deserved to go before the full board. FYI – I have RECORDED EVIDENCE where the chiropractor ADMITS to knowing I complained about the wrist pain, because he checked it, but then says throughout the whole rest of the hearing that I never said anything and he never examined my wrist. HE ADMITTED IT, AND THEY STILL DID NOTHING!!!

    It was mentioned above that attorneys and doctors don’t usually get along… but not in my case. I found out my attorney (which was supposed to be filing a lawsuit against the incompetent chiropractor) was actually friends with the guy (or at the very least acquainted enough to be friends on LinkIn). He held onto my case for 19 months before dropping it (8 days before the hearing). This was after he told me that I HAD to file a complaint with the chiropractic board and their decision would determine if I had a case, which was a complete lie!

    IF anyone is interested in reading my story, I have posted it on a Facebook page, and I am searching for message boards and forums to get the word out. I have spent countless hours/days gathering my documents, researching information, and putting together that webpage to help warn others of issues they are likely to face if they are injured by a chiropractor, a real doctor, or any other healthcare professional.

    A lot of people think it is easy to sue someone when the provider is truly negligent (especially if you have to have surgery to fix what they did) but things are not that simple. Yes, I realize that there are other’s with experiences that are much worse than mine… I’m just trying to get helpful information out to the public. The chiropractor has already had his attorney send me a cease and desist letter, so if you want to read it, you might want to hurry!!

    If interested in reading about my experience, my story is located on Facebook at: https://www.facebook.com/ChiropracticHell/ or you can do a search for: My $60,000 Chiropractic Visit (on the Facebook website, of course)

    Best wishes to you all, for good and caring healthcare providers… that help you instead of hurt you!

  • I know this comes way after the agreement to disagree, but I have to say this. My doctor would have happily let me be a pretzel after an accident, shrugging shoulders. My chiro on the other hand has straightened out my spine, hips, shoulders … and the pain disappeared as well. I go to him whenever I feel things tighten up and get painful again. Every time, he has made my life bearable (nay, normal!) for a few months to a year after treatment. I pick when I want to return. He knows what he’s doing. I don’t care what the medical profession claims. You guys bicker at every turn, even amongst each other. I know a heart surgeon who was picked on by another heart surgeon only because, amazingly, even he wasn’t “good enough” as he’s never done an “in utero” heart surgery like they had. Disgusting ego. Heros, sure. But it never ends with the narcissism and hierarchy behind the scenes, I’m afraid, so I don’t place much credibility on anything but personal evidence that I can walk pain free.

    • So you have to keep returning to him, to treat the same condition… and you think it’s working? You are willingly, repeatedly subjecting yourself to risks you admit are not getting cured.

      Your “personal evidence that you can walk pain free” is contradictory to your first statements that you have to go back often, for multiple parts of your body and relief lasts as little as “a few months” (a typical timeframe for placebo effect).

      And yet, you distrust the medical profession, not because they can’t cure, but because of competitive nature of healing, and stick with the one who you admit hasn’t cured you. Bizarre. Utterly bizarre.

      Just think… if you’d gone to a real doctor, you’d not just have to live life in a “bearable” state of pain, you could have been pain free tens of thousands of dollars and years ago. But you’d rather go with temporary pain relief that has recurred for years, making your life miserable. FWIW, you absolutely cannot “adjust” hips or shoulders. You can relieve muscle tension TEMPORARILY (just like you admit to), but you cannot magically induce your body to realign with a few pushes and pulls every now and then. Permanent repositioning requires things like braces so your body HOLDS and grows into said position. Can you straighten your teeth by wearing braces for 5 minutes a day? No.

  • Im just going to add out there that chiropractic is the only thing that REALLY alleviates my back pain. Two rounds of PT have helped some. I would say I get 50% better on PT only, but 90% better on chiropractic only (during treatment). Science is what it is. Its an amazingly awesome thing, actually. ha. However, occasionally there are items overlooked or not researched or understood enough. It happens. We dont know and understand everything yet.. but that doesnt mean something is a crock because it is still being researched or some dude that did research is correct on all accounts. While I cant speak for crystals and other “odd” things mentioned above, I would hope someone out there considering chiropractic care would read what I am writing and understand, no doc as ever asked to examine my female colon. It really worked for alleviating an intense amount of pain. If you arent sure where to go, dont let this article scare you from trying. It was the difference between being completely mobile and barely able to bend over to brush my teeth.

    • Same here. I was young and had no insurance when I first visited a chiropractor after an accident that injured my lower back. Like many here I was skeptical but I didn’t have much choice. Not only did she alleviate all pain, she worked with me to make things affordable, never pushed for excessive visits, and showed me simple exercises to maintain a pain free back. Now I have excellent insurance but still visit her from time to time – generally when I’ve failed to follow her advice and end up in pain again.

      I’m sure there are bad chiropractors. Just as I’m sure there are bad doctors, barbers, electricians, or any other occupation. My suggestion to anyone that is thinking about chiropractic care, just keep an eye out for any snake oil tactics.

      • @ Aaron on Thursday 03 March 2016 at 15:49,
        Thanks Aaron, you’ve just demonstrated the power of placebo.

        However, something isn’t right about your post; I think this is some ever-so-clever chiro posting some silly, ficticious anecdote because it will seem soooooooooo genuine and real, unlike the crock it is.

    • @ Jen on Tuesday 09 February 2016 at 13:27,
      Putting aside the rest of the incoherent drivel, what is a “female colon”? Is it different to a male colon, apart from being in a male body?

      If it is what it seems to be, how would a chiro examine it, without either a finger up the ought or an endoscope?

  • The lack of professionalism being shown by the majority of the posters on this forum is mind-blowing.

    Reality check, people. No one needs your approval or permission to seek the forms of treatment they wish to pursue for their own issues. If a person’s life is negatively impacted based on a decision they made for themselves then it was their decision and choice to make.

    Lowering your own morals to insult those who do not share your views is beyond pathetic not to mention insulting someone’s intelligence based on what could have been a typo or a foreign-born citizen who likely masters English better than you master her language.

    I came here expecting significantly more than the pissing match delivered by individuals suffering from self-righteousness and an obvious supervalistic complex. My bad.

    • @ Jennifer B on Tuesday 09 February 2016 at 19:58,

      “lack of professionalism”? Professionalism in what? Do the rules mention it? WTF are you on about?

      “Reality check, people.” Oh, the font of wisdom speaks.

      “No one needs your approval or permission to seek the forms of treatment they wish to pursue for their own issues. If a person’s life is negatively impacted based on a decision they made for themselves then it was their decision and choice to make.”
      If one of your friends wants to go to a crystal healer when they have been diagnosed with HIV, is that is perfectly alright because it is their decision?

      “Lowering your own morals to insult those who do not share your views is beyond pathetic not to mention insulting someone’s intelligence based on what could have been a typo or a foreign-born citizen who likely masters English better than you master her language.”
      Generally, the ones who are insulted are trolls, alt-med loons, or self-righteous prigs. Can you see the way I am heading here?

      “I came here expecting significantly more than the pissing match delivered by individuals suffering from self-righteousness and an obvious supervalistic complex.”

      Then you haven’t read much of the content or, quite possibly, don’t understand it. Argument from ignorance isn’t an acceptable stance. WTF is “supervalistic”, since Google can’t find it except in some crap song?

      “My bad.”
      Oh my, you talk American TV.

      I have a suggestion; have something constructive to say, otherwise stick up broomstick up your @r** and sweep the floor on the way out to see your naturopath, homeopath, crystal healer or chiropractor. (Gawd, sanctimonious tools annoy me. Sorry, prof, for the diatribe.)

    • @Jennifer B
       
      “If a person’s life is negatively impacted based on a decision they made for themselves then it was their decision and choice to make. ”
       
      That’s caveat emptor, buyer beware, plain and simple. So I guess you hold similar contempt for those who legislate to make car seat-belt wearing compulsory, who impose regulations to prevent your electric applicances from bursting into flames, who set standards for food purity and safety. Those who shout stridently and repeatedly in an effort to get people to stop smoking are ‘unprofessional’.
       
      Some of us resent con artists of every description. Big Snakeoil is full of them. When you say “No one needs your approval or permission to seek the forms of treatment they wish to pursue for their own issues.” you are denigrating not just the efforts of those on this blog who try to talk reason against nonsense, but you are effectively denying any role in health care for national and international agencies that regulate medicine.
       
      A few miles from where I live there’s a sign reading “Dangerous cliff: do not attempt to cross this fence.” By your standards the person who placed the sign is unprofessional. The person who decides to cross it is perfectly justified.

      • “Some of us resent con artists of every description.”

        If a person knowingly cherry picks some quotes and stands by while others run with the distortion – would that person be a con artist? What if they intentionally change technical definitions? Falsify survey results? Come to conclusions without fully understanding (or intentionally ignoring) a method being studied? Curious as to where you draw the line…

        • Please jm, explain what you mean because you speak in riddles. You think you are very clever, however, most here draw a breath, roll our eyes skyward and think “WTF” whenever you post your usual (oops, meant normal) crap.

    • “I came here expecting significantly more than the pissing match delivered by individuals suffering from self-righteousness and an obvious supervalistic complex. My bad.”

      Hypocrite, thy name is Jennifer B.
      *spends dozens of words ripping people apart*
      *says she’s better than everyone and people ripping each other apart is bad, mmkay?*

  • I would not go to any chiropractor because they are quite expensive. anyone that wants to fix their joints have a better chance at reading this here http: //shortcutreviews.w eebly. com/blog/how-to-cure-sciatica-for-your-back-or-foot-problems

    I used to have back problems, until my doctors recommend to learn more about it. I changed my diet and learned yoga along the way. I am now free from any joint pains.

  • My guess is that Preston is a failure in practice. What do failures in their profession do? 1) Teach 2) Write a book. End of story. Most of the negative things about chiropractic you find online all lead back to a jaded failure.

    • Mike Jacobs wrote: “My guess is that Preston is a failure in practice.”

      And what if your ‘guess’ is wrong? Then what?

      Mike Jacobs wrote: “Most of the negative things about chiropractic you find online all lead back to a jaded failure.”

      If you took a closer look, I think you’d find that most online chiropractic commentators who expose chiropractic for what it is (i.e. mainly quackery), are non-chiropractors who are well-versed in science.

    • Thanks for demonstrating your lack of critical thinking skills.

  • Now, I also want to add that I don’t believe a chiropractor can help anyone with a Lumbar herniated disc. I have been a DC for 15 years. From day 1 to year 3, I wasn’t able to reverse a disc bulge or successfully treat a disc patient let alone satisfy any of the low back claims that many DC’s make. Maybe I am just not that good. IDK. BUT, I decided not to treat LBP after that. Neck and mid back pain is all I treat now with great success. Lastly, I have NEVER used the term subluxation in practice. Ever.

    • Mike Jacobs wrote: “I have been a DC for 15 years…I have NEVER used the term subluxation in practice. Ever.”

      That’s pretty meaningless, when you consider that the following 329 terms either relate to, are synonyms for, or have been used or cited in connection with describing a subluxation or aspects of a VSC:

      Aberrant motion
      (Ab)normal articular sensory input
      Abnormal dysfunction
      Abnormal fixation
      Abnormal instantaneous axis of rotation
      Abnormal mechanics
      Abnormal motion or position
      Abnormal muscle function
      Abnormal nervous system function
      Abnormal spinal function
      Altered intervertebral mechanics
      Altered joint structure and function
      Altered nociceptive and proprioceptive input
      Altered regional mechanics
      Arthropathic
      Abnormal function
      (Ab)normal joint mechanics
      Abnormal joint motion
      Abnormal motion or position
      Abnormal muscle function
      Abnormalities of range of motion or coupling
      Abnormal nervous system function
      (Ab)normal regional sympathetic tone
      Abnormal restrictive barrier in or around joints
      Abnormal spinal function
      (Ab)normal structural relationship
      Acute joint locking
      Acute locking
      Adverse mechanical tension of the nervous system
      Altered alignment
      Altered joint motion
      Altered nervous system movement
      Altered physiological function
      Apophyseal subluxation
      Arthron (extremity joint subluxation — see also “vertebron”)
      Articular derangement
      Articular dyskinesia
      Articular juxtaposition
      Biomechanical distortion
      Biomechanical impropriety
      Biomechanical insult
      Biomechanical stress
      Blockage
      Blocking
      Bony displacement
      Bony maladjustment
      Bony lesion
      Cervical joint dysfunction
      Changes of the dynamic segment
      “Changes of thoracic segments”
      Chiropractic lesion
      Compensatory structural subluxations
      Comprehensive lesion
      ” … compromise proper function”
      Deconditioned syndromes
      Deviation of the bodies
      Errors of static or motor mechanics
      Facet joint syndrome
      Facet synovial impingement
      Facilitated spinal system
      Facilitated subluxation*
      Functional pathology
      Functional subluxation*
      Chiropractic subluxation
      Chiropractic subluxation complex
      Comprehensive lesion
      ” … compromise proper function.”
      Delayed instability
      Deformation behaviour
      Degenerative dynamic segment
      Derangement
      Derangement of the opposing joint surfaces
      Discoradicular conflict
      Disorder of the disc
      Disrelationship of the facets
      Displacement
      Disturbance in the mechanico-dynamics
      “(vertebrae) … don’t move enough, or they move too much.”
      Dynamic forceps
      Dynamic segment
      Dysarthric lesion
      Dysarthrosis
      Dysfunctional joint
      Dysponesis
      Dystopia
      Dysfunctional segments
      Engagement of the spinal segment in a pathologic reflex chain
      Erratic movement of spinal articulations
      Excursion (Conley) = (“Wandering from the usual path.” — Taber’s)
      Facet imbrication
      Facet joint dysfunction
      Facet syndrome
      Facilitated segment
      Facilitative lesion
      Fanning of interspinous space
      Fixation
      Fixed vertebra
      Focal tenderness
      ” … force other joints to move too much.”
      Functional block
      “(subluxations) … force other joints to move too much.”
      Functional compromise
      Functional deficit
      Functional defects
      Functional derangement
      Functional and structural changes in the three joint complex
      Functional disturbance
      Functional impairments of motion
      Functional spinal lesion
      Functional subluxation*
      Gravitational (im)balance of joints (with) reduced chronic, asymmetrical forces
      Harmful dysfunction of the neuromusculoskeletal system
      Hyperaemic subluxation
      Hyperanteflexion sprain
      Hypermobility
      Hypopmobility
      Hypokinetic aberration*
      Impairment
      (Im)properly direct(ed) coordinated, (in)harmonious motor programming
      Inability of the segment to articulate about its new axis
      Incomplete luxation
      Incomprehensible pattern of symptoms and clinical findings when compared to with examination of mechanical lesions in the extremities
      Instability of the posterior ligament complex
      Interdiscal block
      Internal joint derangement
      Internal vertebral syndrome
      Intersegmental instability
      Intersegmental subluxation
      Intervertebral blocking
      Intervertebral disrelationship
      Intervertebral dysfunction of the mobile segment
      Intervertebral joint subluxation
      Intervertebral obturations
      Intervertebral subluxation
      Joint bind
      Joint disturbances
      Joint dysfunction
      Joint immobilization
      Joint “instability”
      Joint movement restriction
      “Just short of a dislocation”
      Kinesiopathology
      Kinetic intersegmental subluxation
      Kinetic subluxation
      Lesion
      Less than a locked dislocation
      Ligatights
      Localised/referred pain
      Locked
      Locking
      Locked subluxation
      Locks up and restricts motion
      Lose their normal motion or position
      Loss of elasticity
      Loss of joint movement
      Loss of juxtaposition
      Loss of segmental mobility
      Low back dysfunction
      Malalignment
      Maladjustment (of a vertebra)
      Malposed vertebra
      Mechanical interferences
      Mechanical malfunctioning
      Mechanically infringe
      Manipulatable joint lesion
      Manipulatable lesion (adjustable subluxation!)
      Mechanical derangement
      Mechanical disorder
      Mechanical dysfunction
      Mechanical instability
      Mechanical irritation of the sympathetic ganglionic chain
      Mechanical musculoskeletal dysfunction
      Mechanico-neural interaction
      Metameric dysfunction
      Mild pubic diastasis
      Minor derangement
      Misalignment
      Misalignment of the fibrocartilaginous joint
      Motor unit derangement complex
      Motion restriction
      Movement restriction
      Multisegmental spinal distortion
      Musculoskeletal dysfunction
      Myopathology
      Nervous system impairment by the spine
      Neuro-articular dysfunction*
      Neuro-articular subluxation*
      Neuro-articular syndrome*
      Neurobiomechanical
      Neuro-dysarthric
      Neuro-dysarthrodynic
      Neurological dysfunction
      Neurodystrophy
      Neurofunctional subluxation*
      Neuro-mechanical lesion*
      Neuromuscular unit
      Neuromuscular dysfacilitation
      Neuromuscular dysfunction
      Neuropathology
      Neuropathophysiology
      Neurospinal condition
      Neurospinal distortions
      Neurostasis (Wilson)
      Occult subluxation
      Offset
      Orthokinetics
      Ortho-spondylo-dysarthrics
      Osteological lesion
      Osteopathic lesion
      Osteopathic spinal lesion
      Osteopathic spinal joint lesion
      Pain and debility without recognisable pathology
      Painful intervertebral dysfunction (“PID”)
      Painful minor intervertebral dysfunction (“PMID”)
      Palpable changes
      Paravertebral subluxation
      Partial dislocation
      Partial or incomplete separation
      Partial fixation
      Partial luxation
      Pathogenic interaction of spine and nervous system
      Pathophysiological mechanics
      Pathologically altered bradytrophic tissue
      Pathologically altered dynamic segment
      Pathomechanics
      Pathophysiology
      Perverted function
      Physiologic displacement
      Physiologic lock the motion segment
      Positional dyskineria
      Posterior facet dysfunction
      Posterior joint dysfunction (“PJD” — see “three-joint complex”!)
      Posterior joint syndrome
      Post-traumatic dysautonomic
      Prespondylosis
      Primary dysfunction
      Primary fibromyalgic syndrome
      Pseudosubluxation
      Putative segmental instantaneous axis of rotation
      Reflex dysfunction
      Reduced mobility
      Regional dysfunction
      “Relative as absolute lack of space within the intervertebral foramen”
      Residual displacement
      Restricted motion
      Restriction
      Restriction of unisegmental mobility
      Reversible with adjustment/manipulation
      Sagittal translation (Conley)
      Sectional subluxation
      Segmental dysfunction
      Segmental instability
      Segmental movement restriction
      Segmental vertebral hypomobility
      Semiluxation
      Simple joint and muscle dysfunction without tissue damage
      Shear strain distribution
      Slight luxation
      Slightly luxated
      Slightly misaligned vertebra
      Soft tissue ankylosis
      Somatic dysfunction
      Spinal dysfunction
      Spinal fixation
      Spinal hypomobilities
      Spinal irritation
      Spinal joint blocking
      Spinal joint complex
      Spinal joint dysfunction
      Spinal joint malfunction
      Spinal kinesiology
      Spinal lesion
      Spinal mechanical dysfunction
      Spinal pathophysiology
      Spinal segmental facilitation
      Spinal segmental instability
      Spinal subluxation
      Spine restriction
      Spino-neural conflict
      Spinostasis (Wilson)
      Spondylodysarthric lesions
      Sprain
      Stable cervical injury of the spine (see also “instability” above)
      Static intersegmental subluxation
      Static subluxation
      Strain
      Strain distribution
      Structural abnormalities
      Structural derangement
      Structural disrelationship
      Structural intersegmental distortion
      Structural lesions
      “Stuck”
      Subtle instability
      Sub-luxation
      Subluxation
      Subluxation complex
      Subluxation complex myopathy
      Subluxation syndrome
      Subluxes
      Three joint complex
      Tilting of the vertebral body
      Tightened, deep, joint related structures
      Total fixation
      Translation
      Unresolved mechanical tension or torsion
      Unstable lumbar spine
      Unstable subluxation
      Vertebragenous syndromes
      Vertebral derangement
      Vertebral displacement
      Vertebral dysfunction
      Vertebral dyskinesia
      Vertebral factor
      Vertebral genesis
      Vertebral induction
      Vertebral lesion*
      Vertebral pathology
      Vertebral subluxation
      Vertebral subluxation complex
      Vertebral subluxation syndrome
      Vertebrally diseased
      Vertebroligamentous sprain strain
      Vertebron (see also “arthron”)
      Wedged disc
      Zygopophyseal pathophysiology

      42 Terms for a Sacroiliac Subluxation

      Abnormal pelvis biomechanics
      Altered sacroiliac mechanics
      Changed motor pattern (in muscles)
      Change in relation
      Displacement
      Disturbed normal relationship
      Distorting the normal mechanics
      Downslips (see also “upslips”)
      Dysarthria
      Dysarthric syndrome
      ” … effect on body mechanics”
      Instability of the pelvic joints
      ” … irritation of the nerves is possible … ”
      Joint binding
      Joint dysfunction
      Joint lesion
      Joint motion restriction
      Joint slip
      Joint syndrome
      Limitation of motion
      Malposition
      Malrotation
      Mechanical dysfunction
      Misplaced
      Misplacement
      Motions are restricted
      Partial luxation
      Primary dysfunction
      Restrictions
      Rotatory slips
      Shear dysfunction
      Shear mechanism
      Slight luxation
      Slip
      Slipping sacroiliac joints
      ” … stick at the limit of normal motion …”
      Strain
      Strain and laxity
      Tilts (anterior, posterior)
      Upslips (see also “downslips”)
      Vertical slipping of the innominate on the sacrum

      Synonyms
      59 Synonyms or Metaphors for the “Spinal Adjustment”

      Arthral alignment
      Atlas therapy
      Biokinetic remediation
      Bone setting
      Chiropractic manipulation
      Chiropractic manipulative therapy
      Corrective spinal care
      Disengage
      Diversified-type force application to release the segment at its articulation
      Facet adjusting
      Fix
      Flexion distraction manipulation
      Functional restoration
      Gentle adjusting
      Gently relieve the locked subluxation
      High velocity facet adjusting
      Human readjustments
      Joint manipulation
      Low force/amplitude manipulation
      Manipulation
      Manipulative surgery
      Manipulative therapy
      Manipulatory
      Manual adjustment
      Manual cavitation
      Manual medicine
      Manual reflex neurotherapy
      Manual therapy
      Manual treatment
      Mechanical treatment of the nerve centres.
      Mobilisation
      Neuro-mechanical spinal chiropractic management
      Neuromechanical correction*
      Neurotherapeutic
      Neurotherapy
      Orthokinetics
      Orthopedic orthokinetics
      Osteopathic manipulative therapy
      Osteopathic osteological adjustment
      Physiatry
      Physical medicine
      Readjustment
      Reconstructive measure
      Reduced
      Reduction
      Reduction of dislocation
      Release of intraarticular pressure
      Replacement
      Repositioning
      Restoration of mobility
      Slipped into place
      Specific mobilization
      Spinal adjustment
      Spinal manipulative therapy
      Spinal manual therapy
      Spondylotherapy
      “Springing the spine”
      Vertebral adjustment*
      Vertebral medicine

      * Unreferenced

      REF: Rome PL. Subluxation Synonyms and Metaphors: Usage of chiropractic terminology in the literature — 296 ways to say “subluxation.” Chiropractic Technique 1996;8:1-12.

    • Well Mike, you are very nicely concealed from Google, which I find strange. A shy chiro is a rare, if not impossible, construct.

      You also make sweeping generalisations, about Preston Long, for which you have no evidence. If you do, please share?

    • I found only one Michael Jacobs listed as a chiropractor online. Your own webpage has a BIG FAT BAR for “sublaxtions”. On the page, you go into the fake word salad for “sublaxtions” woo:

      “What Are Subluxations?

      A subluxation is the result of spinal bones with improper motion or position affecting nerve communications between your brain and your body.
      man on mobile phone

      Distorted nerve communications can be an underlying cause of many health problems.

      A subluxation is a stress response. Muscles go into spasm. Spinal bones lock up. And adjacent nerves are choked or chafed. This interferes with the control and regulation of your body. This garbles communications between the brain and parts of your body.

      Only a chiropractic examination can detect subluxations.”

      Of course only a chiropractic exam can “detect” them – because they aren’t real and no real medical professional will make up something so stupid, then claim to treat it.

      Here’s your blurbs:

      “Naturally, chiropractors help traditional back and neck problems, but chiropractic has also produced wonderful results with a variety of other health problems. Newborns, seniors and everyone in between can benefit.”

      So at least, we’re starting with you saying that newborns you’ve never seen can benefit from things you could do to them (which is an outright lie).

      Then again, your “Common Chiropractic Myths” blurb is straight out of the marketing handbook given at “conferences” fake chiros attend to say they “attended”, which is 99% how to sell and 1% how to avoid being sued.

      LOL – in fact, this blurb: “The “scientific” argument is largely a red herring and the sign of a double standard. Medical economist David Eddy, MD, Ph.D., observes that only 15% of medical procedures have ever been scientifically verified, and the other 85% of common medical procedures have no “scientific basis!””

      … you didn’t even bother to change into your own words from the marketing book. There are literally thousands of webpages with the same line. And it’s false. He was referring to PUBLISHED studies, not treatments. You know, the ones that include the fake chiro studies too? I mean, the guy is literally arguing AGAINST you guys, and you STILL use it in marketing materials…

      At least you bothered to correct his name from the typo in the original materials of David Edy. Though I note you ignore the fact he’s against chiropractic medicine and is a staunch advocate of extremely verified evidence-based medicine. His systems approach to quantifying treatment for various healthcare providers argues AGAINST using chiropractors due to damage and complete lack of support for it’s efficacy. Will you be quoting him on that? Something tells me… no.

      I find it screamingly hilarious chiros keep using that quote, completely out of context, because it actually argues against chiropractors and entirely for the medical profession. It’s like a guy slicing off his nose with a cheese grater and telling everyone how it’s proof of how fabulous stainless steel is for dishwasher facades. Sure, a few less informed may think it’s a great point. The rest of us are wondering why in the heck he’d maim himself to sell a few dishwashers.

  • It wouldn’t matter if there was proof or not….i mean people tend to go for the cheaper solution ….and if it doesn’t work then they go to a clinic…even medicines have a generic brand…so leave chiropractors alone….if you go to a chiropractor your gonna feel like you got ripped off….if you go to a hospital. Your gonna feel the same way…

  • @ Mike gezzie on Wednesday 09 March 2016 at 09:48,

    “It wouldn’t matter if there was proof or not….i mean people tend to go for the cheaper solution ….and if it doesn’t work then they go to a clinic…even medicines have a generic brand…so leave chiropractors alone….if you go to a chiropractor your gonna feel like you got ripped off….if you go to a hospital. Your gonna feel the same way…”

    Reply? How, when no one knows what this drivel means?

  • I’m thinking that NECK INJURY/STROKE/DEATH caused by a chiropractor should be higher on your list of 20. This would wake up those who are skeptical about the concern. I just want people to understand that when you say “Neck Manipulation is Potentially Dangerous” you really mean that it is potentially inevitable because there have been enough cases to deem it flat out dangerous. If your interested check out http://whatstheharm.net/chiropractic.html . The website has just over 40 cases listed and each of their full stories. It could easily happen to anyone. Regardless of how long they have been getting adjusted or how long the chiropractor has been in practice. The first thing to try would be exercises that are recommended to help with bad posture/lack of movement throughout the day. Look up exercises to avoid (toe touches, sit ups, leg lifts according to webMD) Lifting weights can help your spine but don’t lift weights if you get a sudden pain when you start. Anyways, thanks for publishing this article and book.

  • After a recent car accident, I was forced to get a lawyer since the other driver was uninsured. Just hours after signing with them I had a Chiropractor calling me. The treatments are far too frequent, inconsistent, and unprofessional. They assign you exercises from a Copyrighted page of a book and that they NEVER monitor for accuracy. They even allow me to blow them off when I choose due to time restraints. When I try to explain that I am feeling fine now, they advise me they need to do a re-evaluation to be sure. My opinion is that it is all money driven and designed to assist the Law firm by increasing the overall cost of care, since that number is used as a multiplier in the case settlement.

  • I am late coming to this discussion, but not late in the world of back surgeries. I have had 5 since 1998; three of which, were in the past two years. The medical profession failed at the various and numerous attempts to help me. I had 3 different surgeons and each one claimed the last surgery was not what I needed. I am fused from T1 – S1, complete with rods/screws and spacers. I have the 360 surgery … through the abdomen then flipped over and back opened during the same surgery. I now walk with a cane or rolling walker. The last surgeon accidentally cut through my nerve on L4…now, I have drop foot too and have to wear a leg brace for that mistake. When I started having shoulder and neck pains two months ago, I knew I didn’t want another surgery…so, I went to a Chiropractor. Folks you can say anything you want…All I can say is I feel so much better going to him. Oh, and my insurance covers it…so, with a grain of salt, I think it’s great.

    • Well, at least we have ample proof that chiropractors are good at verbally convincing their customers.
      Chiropractics has had more than a century to prove itself. If DD Palmer had been right, the world would be very different. At least, we would have considerably more than 6-12% of the population of North America going to the chiropractor. (Much less in the rest of the world)
      Instead, the metaphysics based invention of chiropractic has delivered little but advanced massage and a sh-load of marketing verbalism:

      Chiropractic marketing starts with chiropractic education and training. You can’t expect a patient to stay on wellness care for long if they aren’t taught the full spectrum of benefits of your services.

      Education must be an ongoing process because often, the symptoms and rewards are invisible – but we know they are there.

      It’s not only the education, but also the time you spend with your chiropractic patients on the table that allows you to gain testimonials, reviews, and referrals… if done effectively.

      Learn the table talk secrets that I used to create a waiting list that was commonly 4 weeks out, and had patients willing to drive up to 8 hours to visit me in my small Northern Ontario city.

      In this webinar recording you will learn:

      1) How to create a similar educational experience for every member

      2) What trigger words to use so you don’t miss any opportunities

      3) How to structure your table talk scripts so that members are EXCITED to refer

      4) An extensive list of table talk ideas

      … and more.

      What the words highlighted by me in this text really mean:

      “The customer doesn’t always get any better but a lucrative practice depends on you knowing how to convince them otherwise.”

  • This is a “seeing is believing” type arguement. Let’s say I’m an artist painter and I sell you painting classes… an xray will show you no improvement was done to you but somehow you feel better after taking the class. There is also no scientific study showing that the art class was beneficial. What difference does it make? If someone gets a benefit or it imoroves their life or, they think it does… that’s between them and the chiropractor. Also, should we care if insurance pays for it or not? No. Last I’ve heard, no insurnace company has ever gone under. Two more things: there are some people that think the xray field is a quack too. Theat the radiation we’re exposed to isnt worth the information we receive but because we can actually see something, its generally more accepted because seeing is believing. There are also the xray believers that think we should get a healthy dose of radiation everyday!

  • @im on Sunday 24 April 2016 at 13:02,

    “This is a “seeing is believing” type arguement.”

    It’s called an anecdote.

    “Let’s say I’m an artist painter and I sell you painting classes… ”

    This is off to a bad start; what does an art class have to do with a person having an illness? Would they come to your art class only because they are unwell, or is incidental?

    “an xray will show you no improvement was done to you but somehow you feel better after taking the class. There is also no scientific study showing that the art class was beneficial.”

    Why would you X-ray someone after an art class? Maybe you should answer the questions above first?

    “What difference does it make?”

    The difference is that if they are really unwell, they wouldn’t (I hope) go to an art class, they would go to a doctor (not a pretend chiro-type doctor). A real doctor is qualified to treat illness, not faff around with their back or neck pretending to cure them.

    “If someone gets a benefit or it imoroves their life or, they think it does… that’s between them and the chiropractor.”

    Please read about placebos and their dangers before you post something so abstruse?

    “Also, should we care if insurance pays for it or not? No. Last I’ve heard, no insurnace company has ever gone under.”

    So, insurance fraud is OK with you?

    “Two more things: there are some people that think the xray field is a quack too. Theat the radiation we’re exposed to isnt worth the information we receive but because we can actually see something, its generally more accepted because seeing is believing.”

    Some people? Who are they?

    “There are also the xray believers that think we should get a healthy dose of radiation everyday!”

    Really? You must associate with strange people.

    • Frank how do you address the people that say they can walk now that haven’t been able after seeing “traditional” doctors?

      • Jim said:

        Frank how do you address the people that say they can walk now that haven’t been able after seeing “traditional” doctors?

        Sir or Madam or as appropriate… then ask them in which peer-reviewed medical journal their case studies were published.

      • @ Jim on Monday 25 April 2016 at 17:21,

        “Frank how do you address the people that say they can walk now that haven’t been able after seeing “traditional” doctors?”

        Why didn’t you say straight up you are a chiro? (the really bad writing gives it away.) You rely on anecdotes which, for the most part, are worthless. Science, real science not make-believe coming out of chiro publications, demands the exclusion of human frailties of which there are many.

        If you have a small part of the prof’s blog, you would have come across the terms “self-limiting” and “regression to the mean” and you might understand the inferred question in your post? I wouldn’t back it though.

  • I am a chiropractor and honestly this is the most bullshit I have ever seen on one page. Some things may be true in an extremely small number of chiropractors but for the most part most of these accusations are false.

    • I do admire your evidence-based and well-considered argument and logic.

    • @ Hunter on Saturday 30 April 2016 at 07:42,

      “I am a chiropractor and honestly this is the most bullshit I have ever seen on one page.”

      Of course you are a chiropractor; who else would make a sweeping generalisation without any evidence? Who else would write so badly while thinking they are a highly educated, health professional? Who else would make such an assertion without having any solid evidence and, I suspect, rely entirely on anecdotes from the people they have fleeced? Who else would be so brazen with their language because they know they are right but have nothing in Cochrane to show it?

      “Some things may be true in an extremely small number of chiropractors but for the most part most of these accusations are false.”

      As always, on what do you base this startling claim? The good prof, as have others, has amassed many examples of the absurd claims made, not just by individual chiros, but by their representative organisations. If chiros don’t want to aggregated with such nonsense, then they should find another profession; hopefully one founded on more than the metaphysical claims of a charlatan.

      As I normally do of chiros who think they are above reproach, post your website URL and let people examine how sound your views are? Doctors of medicine and doctors of philosophy are required to justify their views, so why not you?

  • Pardon the spelling or grammar but I just don’t have the time to edit.
    Everyone over promises in the medical field, including real live Doctors! I really don’t need to read the book. Just need to read into what my body tells me pre and post a Doctor’s and/or Chiro visit. My experience with Doctors has been nothing short of a racket that deceives the public into thinking they know what they’re doing. The only thing they really know is how to prescribe pills and rack up a medical bill. They are experts at that. I do know there are good Doctors – somewhere. However, in the end, after they’ve done their part, they will gravitate to pills, pills, and more pills.
    After a motorcycle accident where I broke my femur bone and three ribs, I got a good picture of the medical industry and medical Doctors. On each visit after I stabilized and my strength came back (got off crutches), they sent in three different Doctors at different times asking the same one question. Can’t imagine the bill they sent into the insurance company for the three Doctors to simply ask “how are you feeling?” Really? Every visit? Three at a time? In the end, all these “Doctors” prescribed was pills for post treatment. Thank goodness I met my maximum out of pocket dollar amount.
    It wasn’t long after post treatment before I developed another issue, my left hip rotated forward for whatever reason which pinched a nerve in my lower spine that caused intense pain down the sciatic nerve. NONE of the Doctors knew why I had this pain. NONE. So what did these fantastic miracle workers prescribe to fix the issue? Yup, muscle relaxers! More pills! After x-rays, MRI’s and a hefty medical bill (because of the new insurance season), the Doctor’s prescribed MORE PILLS!
    After continuing to get worse, and on my way in becoming a heroin addict, I finally got fed up and went to a Chiropractor who evaluated my gait, my leg alignment, and my spine. He was the one that noted my hip was moved forward which was causing my lower spine area to compensate and press hard against a nerve the leads to the sciatic nerve. After 5 visits, only $150 later, AND NO PAIN PILLS, the pain was gone. End of story.

    I’ve also had the same experiences when I lived in Hawaii. I surfed in Hawaii for eight years. Sometimes, on a wipe out, my spine got out of alignment from the twisting that occurs underwater. At first I sought the great medical Doctors and what did they prescribe? Pills! I went to a Chiropractor on the North Shore and within two treatments, problem solved.

    So what is with you and your book? Are you not opening your eyes to the many who do get help from Chiropractors? Over promising? Have you even evaluated your pill pushing money hungry industry? When I go to a chiropractic appointment, I get in within in 10 minutes of waiting. When I go to a medical appointment, it can take hours with no apology for waiting for the pill pusher! The only Doctors worth their salt are surgeons, everyone else are glorified and legalized drug dealers. If I need surgery I will go to a Specialist but I won’t got to a Doctor for spinal issues unless Chiropractic intervention doesn’t help it.

    And if you don’t believe me on any of this, my wife is a nurse anesthetist and observed the racket during my femur bone recovery. Sending in three Doctors to ask the same question and prescribe pills for almost everything they can’t figure out.

    We need reform. We need to pay Doctors less money. You’re not worth it and put people in debt without concern.

  • I have a comment, as a response, for Beth. I formally opposed myself to that statement, that if you don’t go see a regular doctor, you are throwing your money away. It’s totally false, and wrong. My personal experience is saying otherwise. 3 years ago, i had an accident, where i ended up, with a comminuted fracture of my right humerus, which came out of the shoulder socket. The orthopedic surgeon told me that i had no other choice, but to have a 4 hours operation done, offering me 3 options, which all included a metallic device, made of titanium. I really didn’t feel like having this operation done on me at all, and had that funny feeling, that I was being used as a guinea pig. But since i had no better, or other offer at all, against my heart, I went for it. In the beginning, i profusedly thanked this surgeon. But shortly after, I developped a serious bump, in my back, which I knew, was a result of this operation. I also discovered, that I had been shortened of an inch, or an inch and a half, on the right side. Then i started to develop, atrocious spinal pains, and problems, that could make me scream, and so awful, that I had to go lie down. Finally, I spoke about it to my sister, who brought me to her chiropractor, in Florida, where I was told, that because, of the fall, and the operation, , I had developed a lot of scar tissue, and when I looked at the x rays, made by the surgeon, i discovered that I had a build up, of bony calcification, from the atlas and axis, all the way down to between my shoulder blades. The little rehabilitation, of the surgeon, didn’t do much for me, particularly, after he gave me a booklet, and told me to do the exercises, on page 7, with a few little drawings, as guidance.Sorry to have to displease the one who wrote this article, the person who really helped me, was this chiropractor, and I greatly helped him, by practicing my yoga regularly, for what he thanked me. Since I couldn’t stay with my sister forever, I came back to where i reside, and have been seeing a different chiropractor who I am sure do not have the same expertise, as the former one, but who also does me good. So chiropractors are not quacks, contrarily, to what I have read tonight.And there are charlatans in every professions, including the general medicine one, as well as surgery, and orthopedic surgeons.

  • I’m 77 years old. My experience with chiropractors goes back to when I was16, at that time I had dislocated something in my lower back, I visited our family doctor who after his exam said,” I can prescribe a muscle relaxant and you should be ok in 10 to 12 days, but if it were my back, I’d go see a chiropractor. Over the years I’ve had several really good chiropractors as well as several who were complete con artist. The good ones all had one thing in common, they all wanted to have the condition fixed in as few visits as possible. Most would end the visit with, “if you still have a problem give me a call and with the ones I consider to be truly well trained, I never had to go back more than twice. I can recall one instance where I had to return 3 years later and the chiropractor said, “are you back again. I thought I fixed you 32 years ago & the one that I went to at 16, gave me a series of exercises to do that resolved my lower back problem for the next 61 years. Chiropractors, like doctors come in all flavors, some good some bad, your job is to sort them out.

  • Hello,

    I will really appreciate if a chiropractor can answer my questions. I have problems with my back and I have been to 15 sessions at a chiropractor. After a session, I couldn’t move at all, my back was stuck and after I finished my sessions I had two very bad episodes of migraine. Before I never had migraine at all. Can a bad procedure be the cause?
    Also, I have a doubt because my doctor told me that is better to correct as much as we can the posture before tone the muscles, because you strengthen the muscles in a vicious position. Then if we go to a kinesioteraphiest can’t cause as more trouble ?Because you relax, tone your muscles with some exercises but never put the spine back as the other procedure can do. Thank you.

  • Wow, Preston is an idiot. Read his book? I couldn’t even read this whole article. General rule of thumb in chiropractic school, I went to Palmer of Florida by the way, graduate of 2011. General rule is, the chiropractors that sit on the insurance panel and analyze chiropractic cases, well, are failed chiropractors. The ones that failed our national boards. We take 4 sets by the way, to hold a doctorate license. The ones that do not understand how to run a business. The ones that cant adjust. The ones that literally were not good enough to survive, so they take solace elsewhere. And from the bit i did read, This guy doesnt have a clue about the profession as it is today.

    I am an evidence based chiropractor. I do not use the word subluxation in my office. Ever. I do not take x rays. I do refer out for imaging, based upon a thorough examination, and if no contraindications, 2 weeks of conservative care. I use a plethora of techniques, backed by research, to treat musculoskeletal pain syndromes. If you think you can do it better, try. I have a pretty solid track record though.

    Now, about how quackery chiropractic is, and the MD world is so god given great. Medical error represents the third largest causes of death in the US. There is now an “assumed risk” when going to the emergency room. wow, stand up profession.

    Discredit a holistic approach to back pain, that is proven effective. I am not going to add a link to an article here, because if you can’t take your time to google it, do not know how, just dont bother reading further because you dont deserve a seat at this table. Discredit spinal manipulation for back pain, but you support the use of opoid medications, look in the mirror and realize you are a part of the problem.

    Our health care system is so jaded, we have no idea what “science based medicine” even is anymore. Maybe Biochemistry isn’t a science anymore, because anyone that pushes statins, acid blockers, insulin, or opoids needs a solid slap in the face.

  • All the medical schools in the US teach very (AND I MEAN VERY LITTLE) little about nutrition. The only treatment a doctor can offer is pharmaceutical medication. They are HEAVILY influenced in medical school by the pharmaceutical companies–medical students are given free dinners, tickets to games and etc… As they progress through medical school, the gifts get bigger, too! Even the food in hospitals they serve to patients is atrocious! Patients are given jell-o and white bread! What kind of nutrition is that! FREE HEALTH CARE FOR ALL! Just like in France and other European countries! And the doctors get paid more for getting their patients off medication and getting better!

  • Was considering visiting the local chiropractor to see if they could help my weak back muscles get better. Changed my mind because of this article. Thanks for warning me!

    • WhimpyBackGirl267 said:

      Was considering visiting the local chiropractor to see if they could help my weak back muscles get better. Changed my mind because of this article. Thanks for warning me!

      Good! What was it that made you think a chiro might help?

    • Go find yourself a good physiotherapist. Unlike chiro it’s a regulated evidence-based profession so a lot less prone to crap.

  • My experience is as a Chiropractic office manager for a bit over 4 years and have been personally adjusted for over 10 now. Unfortunately the “proof” in the effectiveness of an adjustment will always be controversial. This is due to the fact that the medical community doesn’t accept patient testimonials. Very simply, patients come in with pain and the adjustments safely relieve that pain in a majority of cases. Most patients continue care because it continues to relieve pain and over time (if the injury isn’t too vast) it heals.

    Where in the world is the proof that the medical treatments work??? All they do is mask symptoms and never address the underlying issues. What else can an MD do but “prescribe” a drug or surgery? Nothing. There have be numerous patients that have come into the office with a surgery recommendation and have complete resolve of their pains with Chiropractic care.

    The major difference between an MD and a DC is their approach to health. MD’s look at specific symptoms and prescribe a drug or surgery for it. A DC will do a thorough examination (including palpating an injured area; again numerous MD diagnoses where the alleged doctor never even touched the injured area!?!) and get to the root cause of the problem. A DC will look at the entire picture including; exercise, food, environment, in addition to the physical examination before even treating a patient. How do MDs show up in a room spend 2-3 minutes with a patient and give a diagnosis?? The answer is because that’s how they were trained in their residency by other MDs that do the same flawed practice.

    MDs like the quack writing this site have an agenda against Chiropractic. My theory is they know it works and presents a major threat to their egos and profession. If not, why not just let Chiros be?? How many people are being hurt by DCs…how many DIE from an adjustment??? Compare that to the dangers of surgery and the endless amounts of death/complications from prescription drugs and tell me who’s Daffy. How do MDs morally prescribe 11 different types of “medications” and tell the 350 pound patient they’re healthy?!?!?

    For anyone seeking Chiropractic care, take the time to find a good one. The best source is a good referral and if you can find a DC who also practices Applied Kineseology, you’ll be even happier.

    • Brandon G. said:

      My experience is as a Chiropractic office manager for a bit over 4 years and have been personally adjusted for over 10 now. Unfortunately the “proof” in the effectiveness of an adjustment will always be controversial. This is due to the fact that the medical community doesn’t accept patient testimonials.

      Perhaps you could actually spend some time trying to understand why patients testimonials are deemed not a reliable source of evidence? Then you might begin to see why the rest of your comment is nonsense.

    • “and if you can find a DC who also practices Applied Kineseology, you’ll be even happier.” I’d be very happy — my tears of laughter would provide the empirical evidence!
      http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Applied_kinesiology

    • Brandon G. on Monday 27 June 2016 at 00:49

      “For anyone seeking Chiropractic care, take the time to find a good one.”

      How does one distinguish between charlatans performing witchcraft? Please do tell?

      “The best source is a good referral and if you can find a DC who also practices Applied Kineseology, you’ll be even happier.”

      Despite all of your post being total nonsense, this one trumps everything in its sheer stupidity. Do you know what “applied kinesiology” is? Here is something for starters; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applied_kinesiology

      I can’t even begin to explain what a ridiculous, unscientific, load of crap it is. If you really believe it is real, there is no hope for you. What next; is the Tooth Fairy going to become a religious icon? Your lack of understanding of any science is breathtaking and scary.

    • if you can find a DC who also practices Applied Kineseology, you’ll be even happier.

      I stopped laughing at AK a long time ago when I realised it is used extensively by many alt-med practitioners to defraud gullible customers.
      Knowingly or not, chiropractors who practice that kind of extreme doltishness ought to be treated the same as Bernie Madoff.

    • “For anyone seeking Chiropractic care, take the time to find a good one.”

      Is that because there are so many bad ones?

      Advice to the readers: For anyone seeking Toothiologist care, take the time to find a good one 🙂

  • I think money is a bottom line proof. People will not pay for what doesn’t work, as money is a scarce resource. My patients keep coming back to me and they report their pain is much better. Yesterday I just did a re-eval on a patient that saw me 2/x week for 2 weeks. The re-eval had her neck pain as a 2/10. When we started it was a 8/10. The neck pain was chronic and lasted for a few years. It could be complete coincidence — it can all be coincidence. And this is just one example out of many. But again, people will not dole out money for no reason. I do not preach to my patients. I do not entice them with anything except my experiences. They get better, they keep paying. I would be out of business if they did not. Honestly not everyone has responded. Some people I can not get to improve. Perhaps my skill level was not up to snuff with certain types. I generally make sure to also correct the soft-tissue issues because much of the pain is muscular. For low-back pin, I am constantly working on the sciatic nerve entrapment I find in the popliteal fossa. For some reason, most low back pain patients get sciatic irritation there and I do the soft-tissue work there, it invariably adds to the effectiveness. I constantly work on the psoas muscle — the levator scap and trap for neck pain. Being a chiropractor is the best decision I made in my life. Everyday I can wake up and learn more about the body and how to improve people’s lives without drugs and without surgery. It’s awesome. The naysayers really are on the wrong side of reality. The truth sets us free. But Bjorn, Edzart live in the limits of their own minds.

    • Do you understand nothing about evidence and bias?

    • @Nicholas

      Thank you for mentioning me in the same sentence as one of the worlds experts in debunking make-believe medicine. I am deeply honored.

      I did not go to a chiropractor yesterday, how come I woke up much better from the back pain that has been bothering me?
      I once actually believed what was written about chiropractic being able to help with LBP. I eventually improved as usual, even if it took unusually long that time. The only discernible effect of the chiropractors ministrations was a shift in economy from mine to his. But boy did he work on convincing me his thumping and jerking was helping with this and that. The man is a great salesman for sure. He even wrung my neck even if I never had any problem there. He said it was prophylactic and for my wellness or something. I realized after several weeks of repeat visits that this was doing absolutely nothing for me apart from emptying my wallet. When the bloke invited me to an evening lecture full of baloney about being able to help with anything from infertility to appendicitis by “adjusting subluxations”, I finally stopped going. Later I have read up on the matter so I am not only a “naysayer”, I am a bl**dy well educated one, in more ways than one.
      It may well be that the massage and manual manhandling you describe and sound like regular physiotherapy stuff, has good (albeit temporary?) effects but the business of chiropractic adjustments of imaginary subluxations depends on people who take in the marketing manipulation and mistakenly think it was the thumps and jerks that helped.

      BTW you misspelled the link to your fancy marketing site. No wonder people get taken in by such a glossy storefront full of dubious claims.

    • Nicholas Disabatino said:
      “I generally make sure to also correct the soft-tissue issues because much of the pain is muscular. For low-back pin, I am constantly working on the sciatic nerve entrapment I find in the popliteal fossa. For some reason, most low back pain patients get sciatic irritation there and I do the soft-tissue work there, it invariably adds to the effectiveness. I constantly work on the psoas muscle — the levator scap and trap for neck pain.”

      Interesting that you do a lot of work that is not based on spinal nerve function at all. Chiropractic manipulation therapy is an ineffective technique and is the core of Chiropractic, but your soft tissue therapy may be the reason your patients benefit. Soft tissue therapies are a different issue and certainly may help, at least with short term pain relief and sometimes long term.

      Your therapeutic success does not validate chiropractic theory, training or general chiropractic practice, since you apply a bundle of techniques, some of which work and some of which are ineffective.

  • Sorry for the typo. I can imagine that if you went to someone repetitively and got no results you might (through irresponsible thinking paint with a very broad brush). What you have done by denigrating an entire class of professionals is moreover the height of bigotry. Maybe you are not happy about Harry Lilliard and “the first chiropractic adjustment.” But George Washington owned slaves, does that mean we should not be American citizens? There are always going to be crazy people out there whom attack an entire class of people, and I suppose we should not even communicate with such people: It is extremely Un-American — like being anti-negro or anti-Semitic. Most chiropractors just wake up in the morning trying to use all available resources to help people through non-surgical, not pharmaceutical methods.

    Of course me telling you all this is like telling a fascist not to hate everyone in the Jewish race. They all ready made up their minds to do so, and they value for whatever emotional reason the hatred of the other race. Same thing here.

    • False dichotomy, No true Scotsman, claim to patriotism, claim to altruism, sweeping generalisations, and a cliche.

      Do you write in anything other than logical fallacies. I know it takes thought but, please, do try?

      Edit; Why do you treat children?

    • I repeat;
      Why do you treat children?

      On the strength of that alone, you are a charlatan.

  • Also I did not mean to imply that the people here are fascists — I have not conducted a scientific study to determine — though I may advance the hypothesis. Bjorn, please tell me why do you keep providing your personal testimonial against chiropractic, but you will not allow testimonials in favor of chiropractic? Why is there such a double standard in these posts where you are concerned?

    • First time someone implies i’m a fascist. What a moron. The reason I tell of my own experience with chiropractic is to illustrate why I became skeptical of chiropractic in the first place and also to preclude the usual “You haven’t tried it” rant.

      • Bjorn, you state that when others testify to their positive results from chiropractic, their testimony is invalid. But your testimony is valid. Which is it? I do not know you personally (though I am sure in person you are a real peach), so I do not know your political leaning. However, fascists denigrated an entire class of people just as you do with those of us in the chiropractic profession.

      • The commenter Nicholas Disabatino has with incredibly insolent and unwarranted insinuations made himself unworthy of more words or effort as far as I am concerned. But let’s address that last infantile remark anyway to clarify some things, more for the audience than trying too force-feed this intellectually impervious person.

        I have on a number of occasions here in this blog written about my own experience with a chiropractor. I do this not to present an anecdote about this commercial cult but to illustrate a few points.
        Firstly I tell my story to illustrate why I became interested in the phenomenon[sic].
        Secondly because I wish to illustrate their modus operandi as I experienced it, which involved sweet-talk marketing and inaccurate, unrealistic customer information. I was of course spared the “doctor-bashing” but have heard many stories of it and it can be observed in the plethora of publicity videos chiropractors have placed on Youtube for example.
        Thirdly I point out their disregard for safety and consent. The chiropractor I frequented during some months insisted on repeatedly manipulating my neck in a manner I have later found out is extremely hazardous. No information was given on possible safety issues with any of his manipulations and no consent was asked. The global chiropractic community should long since be well aware of this rare but potentially devastating hazard. In the real health-care setting such a concern would lead to an immediate moratorium on its application pending a serious re-evaluation. Instead the global chiropractic cult chooses to completely ignore the suspicion of danger, meets information and critique with insolence and blindly continues to wring necks with vehemence.
        Fourthly I tell this story to preclude the all too common block-headed remarks about me not being qualified to have an opinion on chiropractic without personal experience.

        • I do not believe you are being truthful of such experiences. There is no way you went for “some months” as you write — unless your intention all along was to pull from that experience testimony against your chiropractic experience. Furthermore, the “experiences” you relate do not reflect on the standards of care that chiropractors are trained on. Why would someone (someone supposedly as intelligent as Bjorn) who hates chiropractors continue to go “for months.” What, all of a sudden on the last visit you became suspecting? And again, why would your experiences be valid, but everyone else positive experiences be invalid? Still unanswered of course. You are a fraud, and a bigot Herr Bjorn. Other than that, you are a swell fellow.

          • “Why would someone (someone supposedly as intelligent as Bjorn) who hates chiropractors continue to go “for months.”?”
            I do not know the answer but perhaps Bjorn is one of these unusual people who is intelligent enough to change his mind; perhaps he did not ‘hate’ chiros at birth and only came to dislike quacks when he realized they were a danger to mankind? you, of course, do not have that problem; you seem to adhere truthfully to your dogma – right or wrong!!! and this is why you lack the imagination and prefer to say ‘I do not believe you’ which is as much as saying ‘I think you are a liar.

  • Nicholas Disabatino wrote on Friday 01 July 2016 at 21:05 : “I think money is a bottom line proof. People will not pay for what doesn’t work, as money is a scarce resource”

    @ Nicholas Disabatino

    I think you need to read this article:
    http://www.ebm-first.com/a-close-look-at-alternative-medicine/153-alternative-medicine-and-common-errors-of-reasoning.html

    QUOTE
    “Even when they derive no objective benefits, devotees who have a strong psychological investment in alternative medicine can convince themselves that they have been helped. According to cognitive dissonance theory, when new information contradicts existing attitudes, feelings, or knowledge, mental distress is produced. We tend to alleviate this mental discord by reinterpreting, i.e., distorting, the offending input. To have received no relief after committing time, money, and “face” to an alternate course of treatment (and most likely to the cosmology of which it is a part) would be likely to create this kind of internal dissonance. Because it would be too disconcerting, psychologically, to admit to one’s self or to others that it had all been a waste, there would be strong psychological pressure to find some redeeming value in the treatment.”

  • It is interesting that Edzard does not allow a reply function to his post to me. The moderator had to come to the rescue of little Bjorn because the latter’s fraud hath been exposed. You know that Bjorn was exposed when he requires rescue from a co-conspirator. When a moderator must respond on behalf of another bigot you see right there the entire website is a sham — and yet the bigot BJorn’s questions remain unanswered. Ahh, the poor physician continued to attend chiropractic “for months” and one day arose to discover he was being deceived. Smart enough to make it through medical college, but it took months to realize he was being deceived by the unter mensh chiropractor.

    • can you do something other than ad hominems?

      • So you are denying there is bigotry on this website — directed against individuals, based on feelings or beliefs held regarding the larger group?

        Quick internet definition”
        big·ot·ry
        ˈbiɡətrē/
        noun
        intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself.
        “the difficulties of combating prejudice and bigotry”

    • I forgot to mention the fifth and perhaps most important aspect of my experience. The ‘bait and switch’, a common method of conjurers and charlatans.
      Initially I was quite positive towards chiropractic because I had read that it should be effective for uncomplicated lower back pain, which I was having problems with. An instrument salesman I was dealing with told me this chiropractor was keeping his back in shape and gave me his number. He received me after hours and took a lot of time shooting x-rays and measuring and prodding, all the while incessantly selling the concept of chiropractic care. I later saw the X-ray images and found them incredibly substandard. He was extremely forthcoming for the first weeks but I wasn’t really improving much. Nonetheless I decided to give this a good chance and go all the way. It took several weeks, maybe eight to ten before I could say I was alright but not great. By then the switch was happening. For quite some time he let me come biweekly and then weekly for “maintenance”. These visits took all of three to four minutes. He had a system of cubicles where he could crank through at least ten if not fifteen maintenance adjustments per hour and it was not cheap!
      It wasn’t until I had spent a good deal of money on this that It started to dawn on me that the only real improvement his ministrations had caused were on his bank balance and these repeat adjustments didn’t make much sense other than as a money making mill. I found some excuse to stop going and it was not until later I realised I had been deceived and trapped in a sense of guilt over not going for these visits.
      After this I learned how to deal with and prevent LBP and every bout since then (with decreasing frequency) I have quickly dealt with on my own. Last week I woke on thursday morning with quite a spasm in the usual place. It was gone the next day. Part of the trick is being active and a good hike can work wonders. Prevention is keeping the back muscles strong With simple exercises and hiking. Also for bouts, sensible use of analgesics, a hot bath and a muscle relaxant in the form of 18 yr old single malt whisky from the Isle of Arran.
      My chiropractor experience was one of the factors instrumental in later fueling my interest in health-related deception and fraud.

      It is sad how some of those who come here to advocate their chosen fantasy-medicine lack the maturity and intellectual capacity to take part in a grown-up discussion.

      • Because you are a liar. I do not believe a word you write. It is all a facade to make your bigoted point. You expect us to believe you, a doctor, went to a chiropractor “for months,” and then one day just realize it was all a sham. Whatever dude. your a sham.

        • With reference to “Nicholas Disabatino on Wednesday 06 July 2016 at 03:45”

          The commenter has either hit the bottle very hard last night and expressing himself under heavy influence just before passing out, or if sober he is demonstrating a personality totally unfit for work in healthcare or with human interaction in general.
          This is getting really sad.

        • @Nicholas It doesn’t matter whether you believe Björn or not. His experience resonates with me as it would with every person I know who has had the misfortune to be “treated” by a chiro. You ask “why would your experiences be valid, but everyone else positive experiences be invalid?” In a nutshell, it’s because positive anecdotes do not prove that chiropractic work (I hope I don’t need to explain why) while negative experiences undermine claims that chiropractic is effective and that chiropractors are professional and ethical in their practices.

          Calling people liars and bigots because they disagree with you and challenge what you say is typical of the kind of ignorant and unprofessional dummy-spitting behaviour I have come to expect from chiropractors and other quacks.

          • it is possible that the last word of your comment was more fitting than you thought; here is a paragraph from Nicolas’ website:

            It’s never too early for your child to see a chiropractor. In fact, family chiropractors often see children just minutes after they are both. The birthing process is extremely strenuous which is why it’s important for both mom and baby to see a chiropractor as soon as possible. Children will often benefit a lot from chiropractic care.

            In order to ensure your child is developing fine, it’s important to see a chiropractor regularly. Children should see a chiropractor as soon as possible within their first month of life, then every 3 months for the first year. The child should then see a chiropractor every 6 months, when they’ve hit a developmental milestone, suffer from a fall or a trauma, or are having trouble with balance.

          • Bernie Madoff was jailed for a similar level of deception as is apparent in the paragraphs Professor Ernst cites. Bernie made the mistake of using false monetary instruments rather than health-deception. The prefix “health-” seems to nullify liability.

            Where is this bloke operating?
            I wonder if there is no authority in his country that can address this blatantly deceptive marketing?

          • @ Björn Geir on Wednesday 06 July 2016 at 11:10

            Disabatino engages in his witchcraft here;

            http://sandiegochiropractictherapy.com/meet-the-chiropractor.html

            where he “treats” fibromyalgia and allergies. No evidence of course but I expect a nice little earner for someone with no scruples.

      • Bjorn, it’s unfortunate your experience was with such a chiropractor. Yes, those types are out there and an embarrassment on this profession. But not all practice in such manners. We are an eclectic group no doubt and I’ve encountered most camps.

        Trust those who seek the truth but doubt those who say they have found it.
        André Gide

        • I certainly ‘sought the truth’ .
          What I have found is that my own experience was in no way unique or special.
          I found that chiropractic had been invented out of one uneducated charlatan’s show.
          I found that chiropractors spend years in school but learn very little other than the nonsense the magnetic healer imagined and how to successfully turn it into a lucrative business.
          I learned that the theoretical basis for chiropractic “adjustments” is anatomical and physiological fantasies that have never been confirmed.
          I learned that the only chiropractic maneuver that has a hope of effect is in the case of uncomplicared LBP, when chiropractors sometimes strike lucky and manage to, almost inadvertently, give some relief in an acute lumbago.
          I learned that this is something most physiotherapists and many Doctors know how to do, without the theatrical thumping.
          I learned that my colleagues in the ER regularly see people who were at the chiropractors but worsened.
          I learned that many chiropractors add alll kinds of nonsense to their collection of parlour tricks to increase cash flow. Even applied kinesiology to name one of the more imbecile.
          I learned that many chiropractors lie to their customers about healthcare and medicine, for their own gain.
          I learned that many of them are active antivaccinationists and even think “adjustments” can replace vaccines and medicine!
          I learned that the neck wringing my chiropractor insisted on performing needlessly could have torn my vertebral artery(-ies) and caused terrible brain damage or death.
          I learned that the chiropractic community in toto denies this and refuses to even consider this terrible, albeit rare complication.
          I learned that many chiropractors realise their signature “discipline” and methodology is false medicine and want to reform their religion.
          I learned that some of them have become apostates and reap the wrath of their brethren.
          I learned many more disheartening facts.
          I learned, in summary, that chiropractic is little more than an elaborate snake-oil religion.

          You don’t need to talk condescendingly about me seeking the truth. I already did. Actually I am constantly doing it. And what’s more… I change my mind if what I find commands.
          How about you?

          • BG: You don’t need to talk condescendingly about me seeking the truth.

            DD: the quote was not intended to be condescending towards you. My apologizes if that is how it appeared. In other posts I’ve actually credited you as appearing to be a truth seeker, I assumed you had read those posts.

            BG: I already did. Actually I am constantly doing it. And what’s more… I change my mind if what I find commands.

            DD: Good. As time allows I will try to comment and/or address most of the issues you presented, provided you are interested. If not, I won’t waste my time.

            BG: How about you?

            DD: I like to think so.

    • Nicholas Disabatino said:

      It is interesting that Edzard does not allow a reply function to his post to me.

      If you are referring to this comment of Edzard’s, it doesn’t provide a ‘Reply’ button not because Prof Ernst is censoring you but because that thread of comments has reached the website comment nesting limit of five levels.

  • @Björn Geir
    Did he give you any exercise and lifestyle advice, rehab, exercises, Tx choices, Time frames etc etc? Sounds like he was a crack-em and stack-em! The “Bait and Switch” is a term commonly used on critical chiropractic forums as well! You have more in common with the critics within chiropractic than you realize!
    +1 for the single malt!
    When I was at uni and my parents were overseas my brother and I discovered 2 bottles of single malt that a patient had given dad and he had put away and forgotten about! They were by then 50 years old and as smooth as silk. A year later a similar bottle was sold at auction for $2000. Dad went looking for them and was a tad upset at their consumption! Meh, he didn’t drink Scotch and they would have been wasted on guests! 30 years later my taste buds still remember!

    • Did he give you any exercise and lifestyle advice, rehab, exercises, Tx choices, Time frames etc etc?

      No CC he did not.
      He convinced me to buy an expensive pillow of his friend but as I said previously, there was no consent form or AE warnings.
      What you’re listing is the kind of free, effective measures that you learn in med-school and what I realised later I had been missing out on.
      Such advice is likely to speed up natural cure and therefore be counter-productive for a chiropractor’s practice building.

      You should enjoy do well in med-school learning real healthcare and I bet you’d become a great physician.
      It’s still time I hope, so get going if you’re not already on your way.

      • @BG
        I’ve had an informed consent form as standard since 1995 and it has been a common law requirement here in Australia for all professions since 2000. AE warnings are part of the informed consent!
        With 4 surgeons, 1 GP, 2 chiro’s, 1 RN and 1 PhD in the family I have been discussing/learning real healthcare for close to 50 years!
        I’m too busy providing best evidence based care to all the patients sent to me by my local doctors to go back to Uni!

  • I would love for us to get a neutral moderator in this forum. There is no way to get any get anywhere when it is run by someone with such a polarized point of view.

    Here is a great one. Maria argues that relating positive results of chiropractic experiences are not valid, why relating negative ones are — simply because, she says so. No one here is bigoted, but chiropractors by their nature are “unprofessional” “quacks”– and that is not a bigoted statement. This is why a neutral moderator is required in this forum.
    I am not denying that there are bad people in the chiropractic profession. But there are a great many that are absolutely dedicated to the craft of manual therapy towards the end of improved health and decreased reliance on pharmaceuticals. There is no way they can all be unprofessional and quacks. To say that is the same as when Hitler claimed that all Jews were part of an international conspiracy and that all Jews were by their nature vermin. That sais, it is apparently impossible for the moderator of this forum and his followers to understand that any time you cast aspersions to all individuals within a group, that is bigotry and is actually a form of maltreatment – if such a thing as evil exists, that is evil because it promotes injustice by targeting all individual members within a broader group. This is what my push back has been here. One can have issues or a viewpoint against concepts, such “subluxation theory,” or whatever, but to make larger statements about entire groups of people is more than insidious, it promotes injustice.

    I am still convinced that Bjorn is a liar. There is no way this person when to a chiropractor for months, and one day woke up with a completely different attitude. He may have sampled an ineffective chiropractor once, maybe twice — but never more.

    Edzard I know this is your forum Big Man, but why not stick around as a host and make a genuine effort to find a neutral moderator? I would love for some well educated neutral person have a look at the material on this forum to provide some feedback. Of course this would not be done because the underlying sham of this website would be exposed.

    Still it would be great to have someone here who has no interest just be able to comment on the fairness and logic of posts, ground rules etc.

    • to call someone a liar is bad; to repeat the allegation is unforgivable. you are banned from this discussion!

    • Godwin’s law.

    • Nicholas Disabatino

      None of your comments have been moderated or deleted.

    • Nicholas whined: “Maria argues that relating positive results of chiropractic experiences are not valid, why relating negative ones are — simply because, she says so.”

      No, not simply because I say so but for the reason I gave in my original comment which, despite its simplicity, poor Nicholas is evidently unable to even grasp, let alone argue with.

      Nicholas then whined: “chiropractors by their nature are “unprofessional” “quacks” yada, yada, yada”

      Who said that? Not me, Nicholas. My comment was that in my experience chiropractors behave unprofessionally and your behaviour on this site is entirely in keeping with that experience. That is all.

  • http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23060056

    Read this and poke holes if you can. ha

    “There was a statistically and clinically significant benefit to those patients receiving chiropractic manipulative treatment…”

    “The majority of systematic reviews find that chiropractic manipulative therapy appears to reduce pain and disability at least moderately for many low back pain patients.”

    “73% of participants in the SMC plus CMT group rated their global improvement as pain completely gone, much better, or moderately better, compared with 17% in the SMC group.”

  • There is no need for us to poke a hole in this paper Mr. [sic] Mozingo. There is a big gaping hole in it already. If you wish to contribute to the discussion here and tell us something about chiropractic by referring to published papers, it would help if you knew how to read them.
    A “pragmatic”, “pilot study” with an A vs. A+B design is not proof of anything. It is a way of pretending to do science in order to deceive those (like you) who do not know how to see through the big gaping hole.

    Professor Ernst has often explained the A vs. A+B trick. Here is one post on it http://edzardernst.com/2012/11/how-to-fool-people-with-clinical-trials/

  • People go to the doctor because they have symptoms. Low back pain being a very high-ranking reason for people to go to the doctor. 73% of the people that see Chiropractic can improve there pain symptoms without fueling the opiate addiction we have in this country. Are you saying this study is false and people do not get better? My patients see a 50 to 70% Improvement in five visits.

    Are you simply looking for clinical evidence or scientific research that the pharmaceutical industry uses? I would like to see the clinical research that Fosamax was going to work. Also show me how depression doesn’t cause negative symptoms. Show me how all cases of heartburn that get prescribed antacid medication are due to too much acid in the stomach.

    I understand that the Chiropractic profession has some Physicians that work slightly under the ethic standard. Can you look in the mirror and say the medical profession does not?

    This clearly is not a debate on whether chiropractic works or not. This is people yelling that they’ve had bad experiences. I went to a dentist wants and he gave me a root canal I did not need. But I do not stand up and bash the entire Dental profession.

    So, bjorn, sorry, I did not take time to Google you. But thanks for the internet traffic to my website, show me the evidence of what does fix back pain period.

    • Trent: Are you saying this study is false and people do not get better?

      What they are saying is that this particular type of study has some issues that makes the application the findings questionable.

      One, or both, of the arms would have to be modified to address some of these issues but that would no longer be considered “standard care”. (A larger n could have helped as well).

    • Mr. Mozingo is evidently new to this blog. The efficient remedies for back pain have been discussed here ad nauseam. It’s sometimes called SMC and entails mostly patient education, time, activity, exercise, physiotherapy and medication as needed. If Mr. Mozingo had trained as a real Dr. he would have known this already.

      • I appreciate your efforts of condescension. But it is Dr. Mozingo, as I hold a doctorate degree.

        Again, you are seeking empirical evidence that chiropractic works, and shame those physicians that perform the therapy, but do you have evidence that your physiotherapist can do something that I can’t do? Do you have evidence that an exercise you can perform will reduce discogenic pain faster than McKenzie protocol? Are you saying that assisted soft tissue mobilization like graston therapy does not work? Outside of medication which I do make referrals when necessary which form of progress for low back pain have you just discussed that I can’t do?
        Or is it the spinal manipulation you can’t get on board with. Or the activation of mechanoreceptors through a high velocity adjustment to assist in alleviated a facet syndrome scenario.

        I am new to this biased blog. I am not exactly enthusiastic to the only argument I keep hearing is show me evidence. Blah, blah. Evidence of subjective change isnt good enough. What evidence do physiotherapist run on?

        Again, there are holes in the best of evidence, and I gave the Fosamax example. That was proven, with your evidence to work, and people’s jaws fell apart. Sorry, if your style of evidence can allow that to happen, count me out .

      • Björn: “?..SMC and entails mostly patient education, time, activity, exercise, physiotherapy and medication as needed.”

        Hum, pretty much what most chiropractors do, along with SMT and minus the medication of course.

        Job analysis

        Health promotion utilization on a daily basis:

        Ergonomics postural advice. 98.8%
        Physical fitness/exercise promotion 98.5
        Changing unhealthy behavior 97.3
        Nutrition dietary advice. 97.0
        Stress reduction 97.5
        Self care strategies 98.1
        Disease prevention 92.5

        Passive adjunctive:

        Cryotherapy 89.9%
        Trigger point therapy. 86.8
        Bracing 83.1
        E stim 76.6
        Moist heat 71.3

        Active adjunctive (2009)

        Correct therapeutic exercise 96.8%
        Rehab exercise of spine 92.3
        ADL advice 84.6
        Rehab exercise extremities 84.3

      • Chiropractic methodology was invented[sic] by an uneducated quack and has developed only minimally since then. Its purported and advertised mechanism of action i.e. “adjustment of subluxations” is totally unverifiable and does not have any basis in anatomy, physiology or pathology.
        Those chiropractors who mix efficacious therapy modalities into their practice are using non-chiropractic methods. That is fine with me as long as they do it properly and do not lie to their customers.
        Mainly US chiropractors call themselves “doctors and physicians” as you do. It is a deceptive overstatement devised by themselves for marketing purposes. I do not use these titles because I consider them erroneous, overrated and deceptive.
        Most of chiropractor’s data comes from their own surveys (not research), which provide false overstatements good for marketing and boastful statements on blogs like Mr. Mozingo’s and Mr. Dale’s above.
        My knowledge of chiropractic comes from my own experience, from interviewing patients and colleagues who have experience of chiropractic and its consequences and from extensive studies of various sources.
        I consider myself fully equipped to have an opinion about chiropractic, what it is and what it is not.
        If you wish to refute my opinion, please do it with real evidence.

        • Björn…Chiropractic methodology was invented[sic] by an uneducated quack and has developed only minimally since then.

          Well, kind of. Palmer was under the study of Still and Palmer later added some eastern thinking to it, that didn’t necessarily change the methodology, but the philosophy. Granted, his son took it a different direction.

          Björn…Its purported and advertised mechanism of action i.e. “adjustment of subluxations” is totally unverifiable and does not have any basis in anatomy, physiology or pathology.

          That depends on definitions. In another post you mentioned physiotherapists and MDs doing adjustments so apparently they think “something” is there.

          Björn….Those chiropractors who mix efficacious therapy modalities into their practice are using non-chiropractic methods. That is fine with me as long as they do it properly and do not lie to their customers.

          I’m not sure how one decides what is and is not “non-chiropractic”.

          Björn….Mainly US chiropractors call themselves “doctors and physicians” as you do. It is a deceptive overstatement devised by themselves for marketing purposes. I do not use these titles because I consider them erroneous, overrated and deceptive.

          Here, the requirements were set up by the Department of Education.

          Björn….Most of chiropractor’s data comes from their own surveys (not research), which provide false overstatements good for marketing and boastful statements on blogs like Mr. Mozingo’s and Mr. Dale’s above.

          If you have better evidence of what chiropractors are doing in practice I would be willing to look at that evidence. Until then, surveys are the best we have to determine such topics.

          Björn…My knowledge of chiropractic comes from my own experience, from interviewing patients and colleagues who have experience of chiropractic and its consequences and from extensive studies of various sources.
          I consider myself fully equipped to have an opinion about chiropractic, what it is and what it is not.
          If you wish to refute my opinion, please do it with real evidence.

          Actually, an opinion only requires another opinion, which she gave.

          • …Palmer was under the study of Still and Palmer later added some eastern thinking to it,…

            The lame leading the blind 😀

        • http://www.nbcnews.com/health/cancer/farid-fata-doctor-who-gave-chemo-healthy-patients-faces-sentencing-n385161

          I think this type of lying to patients should be slightly higher on your concern list.

          But you have zero interest in a sound comparison of professions. I have made a clear distinction of dentistry, chiropractic, and medical systems having glitches, and you will not hold an intelligent conversation. I have asked for forms of evidence for therapies you find sound for low back pain. Compared them to the therapy a sound chiropractor can use, and you do not respond. I ask about the evidence you are looking for, and show clear contrast of its efficiency to provide sound medical practices, and you do not respond.

          http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/06/18/unnecessary-surgery-usa-today-investigation/2435009/

          Maybe you don’t understand how surgery affects the biomechanical health of the body. Maybe, like most of these surgeons, you simply don’t care, but profit is more important.
          Don’t worry, I will continue to try and fix the atrocity that a poorly performed discectomy or spinal fusion creates.

          This one-sided witch hunt for the bad demon chiropractor is ignorance at its finest. Please, keep the traffic to my website going, keep reading my blogs, because eventually, I hope you finally learn something.

          • Do you clearly state to your clients, before obtaining their informed consent: Most of what I was taught while acquiring my DC was bullshit.

          • Wow, Pete, that is really impressive reasoning.

      • I believe he should be addressed as “Dr.” Mozingo.

        The “efficient remedies” for back pain didn’t help me. You know what did? Chiropractics. When THREE neurologists at Duke University Medical Center (a premier institution in the US) told me I had multiple sclerosis, I was devastated. A friend whose brother is a chiro recommended I see a chiro based on my symptoms (weird aches and pains, numbness, tingling, brief moments of memory loss and confusion). I walked into his office, and asked to be evaluated. I DID NOT tell him my symptoms or what the docs at Duke said because I am trained in psychology as a scholar-practitioner and didn’t want to influence his findings. I was skeptical, to be sure. He did something that I think was an EMG, and said, “I bet your right arm is numb all the way down to your little finger” (check); “Do you have frequent headaches? I see some damage to your C3-C5 which are here (pointing; another check); “How long have you had sciatica?” (“Is that the shooting pain in my hip and leg? The doctors gave me pain killers but they didn’t really help. Physical therapy helped a little bit, but not much”; “I’ve suffered with that for over 15 years”). His response: “I can fix your neck and upper back right now, but your sciatica will take a while because there’s more damage”. And he did. I walked out of there having paid about $150 for the x-rays and EMG and adjustment. Compare that to the $30,000 my insurance company paid to Duke. I was totally pain free (and not numb or tingling) except for the lower back. I went to him every day for a week, then every other day for a week, then a few times a month, and eventually the sciatica was alleviated when the discs were in proper alignment and actually remained there. Now I only have to go once a year for my lower back because once he fixed it, I was given some maintenance exercises to keep it there. My neck has become home to my osteoarthritis, and every chiro I’ve seen (8 different ones since that first in 1999; I’m a military wife and move a lot) has told me there is nothing I can do because strokes run in the family and they don’t want to risk manual manipulation. The “activator” tool is not helpful. But my lower back, despite continued deterioration of everything from L1-S1 remains relatively pain free. The upper back thing hasn’t returned. Say what you want about chiros. But I’ve been to 8 (all over the country) and ALL of them were helpful, upfront about the limits of their practice and expected results, and NOT quacks.

        I do NOT have MS by the way.

        So this is my little bit of anecdotal evidence that MDs can make big mistakes, and chiros can be helpful without drugs, upselling, or quackery. Say what you want about needing empirical evidence. But in the end, patients care about what makes them feel better. If chiro works, go for it. It’s way better than getting hooked on pain killers!

  • Interesting how elaborate anecdotes often appear when needed. One might think there were people with miracles to tell, who are following the blog and waiting to defend their particular hero, be it a chiropractor, acupuncturist, homeopath or any of the main varieties of quackery…

    The ingredients are almost per standard… Let’s try to paraphrase a little breakdown of the highlights of a successful anecdote:

    *Not less than THREE specialist Doctors had failed to diagnose right
    *The wrong diagnosis was devastating! (Nothing less than MS this time)
    *Diffuse and non-specific symptom collection, “weird aches and pains, numbness, tingling, brief moments of memory loss and confusion”
    That might actually fit well with MS but many other things too
    But not so well with the purported diagnoses of sciatica and cervical arthrosis/disc.
    *I didn’t think of going to a chiropractor myself
    *I am a scholar
    *I was skeptical at first
    *Because I am smart “I DID NOT tell him my symptoms or what the docs at Dukes said”
    *The chiropractor seemed to divine the diagnosis, he’s so smart.
    *A detailed and dramatic, almost verbatim description of the encounter follows, with direct citations too what the wonderful chiropractor said years ago.
    *Fancy apparatus and tests
    *Instantaneous relief… Another recurring miracle that has for some reason gone unconfirmed outside anecdotes.
    *Inexpensive compared to the expensive incompetents who made the “big mistake” diagnosis
    *Add a bit of condiments for credibility, this time impressive one’s about perils of neck manipulations in a worn cervical spine and the “activator” being useless (it is and many chiro’s recognise this).
    *A little sermon in the end about how caring chiropractors are and the ‘proof is in the pudding’ trope to justify the anecdote.
    *And of course it was way better to be saved by the inexpensive hero than become a drug addict.

    And we are supposed to believe a chiropractor didn’t write this advertisment…?
    Hard… very hard in fact.
    The text is just too filled with standard chiropractor “sound bites”. Did anyone count them? 😀
    It’s literally too perfect
    Of course I cannot verify whether this story is prepared by a chiropractor or not but I have a firm suspicion that one must at least have been instrumental in its conception and construction 🙂

    OK…, let’s suppose this is a bona-fide story and not written by Mr. Mozingo or a friend of his.

    Sciatica is usually self-limiting so no proof there that the chiropractic ministrations were elemental in the improvement, which usually comes with time anyway, whatever you do or don’t. Perhaps even the chiro pulled a cervical disc a bit in and the symptoms got better.
    A wonder why chiropractors haven’t been able to reliably confirm such wonders and become part of ER staff the world over. Much more likely it was a lucky strike if true?

    The commenter claims the (no less than “THREE”) neurologists made a “big mistake” and there is no MS. This is in no way certain and it is not likely the neurologists made a mistake if this story is true.
    MS is a strange disease and the diagnosis when symptoms start, is always pending further development. The commenter might very well still have had a bout of MS back then. And (s)he might not have.There is no way of knowing but the symptoms listed do not sound unlikely for MS.
    MS is a chronic condition which comes and goes as it likes. Some people are lucky and get only one bout and that´s it for the rest of their lives. Others have a bout and then no symptoms for a long time. For some it is a progressive nasty disease. Its patterns of exacerbation are often random. The “THREE neurologists” probably explained their diagnostic consensus with much more maybe’s and perhaps’es than the poor patient ever was able to comprehend. All (s)he heard and remembered was the devastating doom: “MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS” and forgot all about it yet being a tentative diagnosis. How often have I not seen this phenomenon. That’s why I always carefully follow up on such information-giving and take another discussion later, when the patient has recovered from the initial shock of a difficult message.

    If there is one thing chiropractors excel at, it is convincing their customers that they know better than the Doctor-“amateurs” who only know how to diagnose wrong and prescribe perilous pills for Big-Pharma.

    This anecdote can be easily interpreted NOT to corroborate the efficacy of chiropractic or the superiority of their diagnostic abilities.

    • Becoming a part of ER staff probably isn’t necessary in smaller facilities…being on call makes more sense.

      Example… http://www.dynamicchiropractic.com/mpacms/dc/article.php?id=15395

      • Yes. We all know the levels of absurdity health care has reached in many US hospitals and institutions. We can also easily see that the infestation of chiropractic over there has not contributed to the general state of health. It seems we constantly have to remind our stateside commenter friends and trolls that the world is much bigger than the US. If Dale who thinks he’s a Doc had read my comment with an open mind, he would have noted that I said the “world over”.

        Chiropractic is actually a rare distraction if you count globally.
        It seems the majority of mankind can very well do without it 😉

        • bG: If Dale who thinks he’s a Doc had read my comment with an open mind, he would have noted that I said the “world over”.

          I know what you wrote.

          Apparently you are not open to an intelligent discussion…looks to be par for the so-called skeptics on EE blog. Take care.

          • don’t you just love it when a so-called doc calls you a so-called sceptic?

          • True, perhaps Bjorn doesn’t consider himself a true skeptic. After all, by definition he would have to question all opinions (which interestingly, from what I’ve seen, makes me more of a true skeptic than most here)

            1A person inclined to question or doubt all accepted opinions (Oxford)

    • It must be wonderful to live in a world where you can deny anything and everything that doesn’t fit your perception of reality.

      I can guarantee you that every word I wrote is absolutely true, except for the “conversation”. That is my best recollection of how things went. It was, after all, 1999 and I’ve aged a bit.

      I can also promise you that THREE doctors at Duke sat me down with my husband and said, (this isn’t verbatim but the general gist): “We find evidence that you have multiple sclerosis. The only part missing for the definitive answer is the lack of plaques on your brain. However, only 40% of MS patients show these plaques in the early stages. We’re going to refer you to…” blah, blah, blah!

      In the 17 years since then, the problems that took me there have not re-appeared. I’ve also had to have two MRIs in the interim for other reasons. Neither showed any evidence of plaques or other indicators of any neurological disease or disorder. It is possible that back then I experienced what is now called a Clinically Isolated Syndrome. If so, I am one of the lucky ones to have not progressed to MS. Or, more like, the doctors were wrong.

      I should also add that not one of the chiropractors I’ve had has ever suggested that I not seek medical treatment when necessary.

      You stated, ” Perhaps even the chiro pulled a cervical disc a bit in and the symptoms got better.” Gee, evidence that a spinal manipulation worked! Yes, I know that sciatica is generally self-limiting. But when it goes on for weeks on end to the point where you can’t walk, sleep, and enjoy life, it’s time for an adjustment from a chiro.

      Think what you want, but I have found chiro to be far more useful in alleviating my pain than traditional medicine.

      For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don’t, no proof is possible.

      • Jeanski, you wrote:

        For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don’t, no proof is possible.

        With these words you characterize chiropractic as a belief system! Surely something that claims to cure (many) medical problems should be able to demonstrate efficacy beyond anecdotes from believers?!

        • Why are anecdotes that support chiro any less valid that the ones who claim it is ineffective? In the absence of empirical evidence, I’ll go with what works for me.

          • The claims that chiro is ineffective are usually based on the lack of good evidence, not anecdotes. Do you understand why anecdotes – and personal experience – are not reliable indications of what is actually going on?

          • How does “lack of evidence” equate to ineffectiveness? It doesn’t. Again, people are using their personal experiences to say it doesn’t work. I’m using mine to say it does. A lot of good empirical studies started with anecdotal stories that led someone to test them. Someday it’ll happen for chiro as well.

          • How does “lack of evidence” equate to ineffectiveness? It doesn’t.
            CORRECT!
            but in responsible healthcare we tend to use such treatments with positive evidence for effectiveness and avoid those that have a lack of evidence; in fact, for all intents and purposes, the latter category is classified as ineffective until good evidence tells us otherwise.

          • Neither of them is valid as evidence. When I tell of my experience with a chiropractor, it is not an anecdote told as evidence that it did not work. It is to illustrate salient points we regularly make about their commercial and marketing modus operandi, their disregard for safety and omission of truthful patient information. And I tell it to contradict the usual critique that I have not tried the “pudding”.
            If you are who you say you are, which I am doubting more and more due to the similarity of your comments to the argumentation and laments of chiropractor’s, I can only say: good for you, but your story and your arguments are unconvincing in light of other well established facts.

          • “It is to illustrate salient points we regularly make about their commercial and marketing modus operandi, their disregard for safety and omission of truthful patient information.”

            Certainly this is an anecdote. I, personally, have never experienced this. I’m not saying it didn’t happen to you or others, but it hasn’t happened to me or any of the other people I know. Therefore, you can’t use it as evidence that chiro doesn’t work or is too commercial.

          • “Why are anecdotes that support chiro any less valid that the ones who claim it is ineffective?” They’re not. Both are equally invalid as ‘hard’ evidence of something. Both prompt the question: are there any robust data to support either side. The answer is in the affirmative: clilnical trials of high quality do not support the efficacy of chiropractic.

            “In the absence of empirical evidence, I’ll go with what works for me.” Like I say, there’s plenty of empirical evidence. The problem is that humans are exquisitely fine at fooling themselves. (There’s a lot of empirical evidence for that, too.)

      • Jeanski said:

        I can guarantee you that every word I wrote is absolutely true

        Wow.

        Perhaps we don’t need to test the claims of chiros or Big Pharma any more: we just ask them to make the same declaration. How does that sound? That’d be OK, wouldn’t it?

      • @Jeanski
        Why should we take your history as evidence of the efficacy of chiropractic.
        What I was mainly trying to point out is that nothing in your account can not be explained more credibly by other factors than what the chiropractor did.
        Please try to apply the knowledge and training of a scholar and psychologist (your own words) to your history. Try applying the fact that chiropractic was invented more than a century ago out of no scientific findings or experience and a few years later applied as a fully developed commercial product. It has not evolved significantly since then other than adding even more unlikely claims of efficacy for things such as ADHD, bedwetting, infertility and even appendicitis. Try keeping in mind that this basis that chiropractic is built upon, i.e. subluxations and their effect upon the nervous system has never been confirmed despite all the modern technology available. Try keeping in mind that most of humanity does not have access to chiropractic and in the areas where they have, the public health is not significantly improved, on the contrary even.

        Remember you are a psychologist. They should be the first to acknowledge how readily the human mind and memory is affected by suggestion and bias.
        Until new evidence and data supporting that chiropractic adjustments have a credible basis in reality and your experiences cannot be explained by more likely and well known factors, your story remains a simple anecdote that only supports the well known fact that chiropractors are good at convincing their customers.

      • @ Jeanski on Monday 11 July 2016 at 23:17

        A sufferer of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychologist%27s_fallacy.

        I know someone similar to Jeanski with about as much self-affection. This other woman is doing her PhD in pysch and I can’t help wondering if she has forgotten what it is about. She certainly seems to have forgotten psych is deeply based on statistics, much as Jeanski has.

        • Anyone who quotes Wikipedia has immediately lost all credibility.

          • a truly moronic argument!

          • Because Wikipedia is an open source that anyone can post to. There is no way to verify what they said unless they include legitimate sources on the topic. Depending on the topic, I’ve noticed they include a lot of newspaper and magazine articles and far fewer with real research. Again, it depends on the topic. I tell my students they can start there to read up on something to get a better understanding of a topic, but under no circumstances can they use it to write their term paper.

          • LOL!

            And anyone can correct and improve – as long as they link to appropriate sources. But perhaps you’re not fully aware of its rules.

            Anyway, perhaps you could tell us what was wrong with the article Frank Collins linked to?

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychologist%27s_fallacy.

            Also, please say why you seem to believe it’s less reliable than yourself?

          • @ Jeanski on Tuesday 12 July 2016 at 18:50

            “I tell my students they can start there to read up on something to get a better understanding of a topic, but under no circumstances can they use it to write their term paper.”

            Why? According to you, all you need is an opinion without evidence. Surely it will be adequate for the students to submit an assignment based entirely on their firsthand anecdotes and their opinions, just as you express here?

            You really do have the Psychologists Fallacy, much like some other dopey psychologists I know.

  • This should be interesting!
    Dale would you classify many on this site as True Skeptics or Pseudo-skeptics?
    The table on this site is interesting:
    http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/characteristics.php
    Let the fun begin! 🙂

    • Hehe..

      A good call “CC”, but I think you are missing the goal.

      I have no problems identifying myself with the left column of this comparison.
      What you guys are not grasping (among other) is that this blog is not about genuine healthcare. It is about “alternative medicine”. Critique on genuine healthcare is mostly misplaced here. I can assure you I am also active on that front.

      Let’s take you up on your appeal for entertainment and examine this elaborate list of standards a dishwasher-proof skeptic should adhere to:

      *Questions everything and takes nothing on faith, even from cherished established institutions.
      -A good example is the Cochrane collaboration and the bunk about acupuncture for migraine we discussed recently. Many of my colleagues still think this institution still collects nothing but bulletproof evidence. Alas, just like PubMed is wide open for bunk the Cochrane collaboration is wide open for seriously biased reviews.

      *Asks questions to try to understand new things and are open to learning about them.
      -If I had a tenner for every time I asked “jm” to come with something NEW, but that character kept talking about ancient emperors and fantasy phenomena no one has ever seen, measured or confirmed in any way.
      For me to be able to consider evidence as new and interesting, it has to contribute something more than already is well known. I have asked a lot of questions here and certainly been open to learning. The problem is the altmed fan’s constantly come dragging with OLD NEWS they think is applicable as new and credible. When we yet again reply critically to such already debunked garbage the altmed adherents think we are close minded and get all worked up about us being rude and judgmental.

      *Applies critical examination and inquiry to all sides, including their own.
      -I can assure you I am active in critical appraisal and reformative work in my own profession and healthcare in general. As a morsel of evidence for this is the fact that I went back to school in 2008-2010 and took a masters degree called EMPH-Executive Master of Public Health in order to be better equipped in working for better healthcare.

      *Withholds judgment and does not jump to rash conclusions.
      -Most of our responses here are to OLD news not needing much consideration or new thought. This may of course easily be perceived as rash knee-jerk judgements, namely by those alt-med aficionado’s who have little experience in such a discourse. When someone flags a paper I read it before responding if I am not familiar with it already.

      *Seeks the truth and considers it the highest aim.
      -Bring on the TRUTH by all means… and provide evidence for it. I will certainly be the first to change my mind if someone can for example come with credible, well supported information that supports the theory of subluxations and that adjustments of them help with infertility and migraine or whatever. Hitherto we have not seen much more than imitations of science.

      *Thinks in terms of possibilities rather than in preserving fixed views.
      -In my EMPH studies they had us undergo a comprehensive personality profiling that revealed just that 🙂

      *Fairly and objectively weighs evidence on all sides.
      -My wife says I spend too much time reading articles and searching for references.

      *Acknowledges valid convincing evidence rather than ignoring or denying it.
      – The keywords here are ‘valid’ and ‘convincing’. As said before, we are still waiting for something new and interesting in support of any of all the altmed varieties. Professor Ernst spent his academic career looking for such evidence and I suspect he keeps this blog going in the honest hope someone will come up with ‘valid convincing evidence’ that can be discussed and evaluated.
      When we skeptics “deny” something it is generally because it is neither new, valid nor convincing.

      *Possess solid sharp common sense and reason.
      -I try but my success is for others to judge

      *Are able to adapt their paradigms to new evidence and update their hypothesis to fit the data.
      -The keywords are ‘new evidence and data’. Alternative Medicine remains alternative simply because there is no new evidence and data coming up that makes it possible to start to consider it useful.
      Show me new evidence and data and I will show you how I adapt my paradigm and update my hypotheses.

      *When all conventional explanations for a phenomenon are ruled out, are able to accept paranormal ones.
      -There is an abundance of conventional explanations for the perceived existence of both Santa Claus and chiropractic efficacy. The same applies for acupuncture, homeopathy and any of the more than four hundred different altmed varieties (the list is ever growing).

      *Accepts that there are mysteries and revels in trying to understand them.
      – If I didn’t revel in trying to understand mysteries I would just now be out in the nice weather painting the window frames instead of sitting here typing my thoughts to people who mostly aren’t able to comprehend them. a good thing the wife has gone off to work, she would not let me finish this little essay.

      *Views science as a tool and methodology, not as a religion or authority to be obeyed.
      -Have a look at my publication list and CV if you think I haven’t tried to adopt the toolbox and methodology of science.

      *Understands the difference between the scientific process and the scientific establishment.
      -Check

      *Acknowledges that the scientific establishment is subject to politics, corruption, control, censorship and suppression, as all human based institutions are – and therefore must be critically examined and scrutinized, rather than taken on faith, especially in the light of contrary evidence to their claims.
      -Why do you think I spent two years learning more about how to understand and deal with establishments, institutions and politics?
      Critical appraisal of Health Care in general is not the subject of this blog and would mostly be considered off-topic here. Many of the regular commenters here, including me, are active on other fronts in this respect.

      *Will admit they are wrong when the evidence calls for it.
      -Show me I’m wrong and I’ll show you how I change my mind.

      I would certainly (for example) and even gladly pay to go to a chiropractor if anyone can convince me with evidence that I would benefit from it.

    • @ Uncritical_Chiro on Tuesday 12 July 2016 at 00:44,

      Trust you to post complete nonsense. Do you ever read the links you post?

      That website is run by paranormal loons who believe in such things as telepathy with animals. It also lists these websites as “pseudo-sceptical”;

      James Randi and his JREF crowd
      Michael Shermer
      CSICOP and their crowd
      Penn and Teller and their “Bullshit” show (pun intended) which is an insult to one’s intelligence
      The Mythbusters
      Phil Plait and his “Bad Astronomy” folks

      Perhaps it is not too far removed from the belief system of chiros; innate energy, the power of gawd, and clicky things that demonstrate the power of regression to the mean and self-limiting conditions. You’ve made quite a living from it yourself, treating fools who know no better and relieving them of their cash.

      If you are going to post crap, at least make it humorous crap, such as studies which show the efficacy of chiropractic so that they can be torn another ar…………. Nothing you write surprises me any more; all of it is self-serving garbage.

      Why don’t you take issue with Not-a-doc Dale who is a subluxationist but is too pathetic to admit it. We all know who he is but his cowardice runs deep. How about you showing some spine and giving him what-for for holding nonsense views?

  • My post was to stimulate a conversation and it generated two differing responses!
    Thankyou @Björn Geir for a detailed and well thought out response! Much appreciated!
    That you are active on other fronts does not show on this blog. You should write for Science Based Medicine as they spend as much time criticizing the BS within medicine as BS in CAM!
    Some of the greatest critics of medicine that I know are doctors and this critical culture is sadly lacking in certain sections of the chiropractic profession. I went to SOT, AK and Activator seminars among many others when I first graduated 25+ years ago out of curiosity. There was not the explosion of technique empires, foolosophy love fests and practice management guru’s that we see now! At all three I asked the presenters one word repeatedly “Why?” and they all looked at me in bafflement and replied similarly “It’s in the manual, it works, just follow it!” By the end of the weekend they actively avoided me! I was very unimpressed and never took those techniques and further!
    That there is a lack of a critical culture across the whole profession as often pointed out by the regulars on this blog is far from accurate as is adherence to outdated dogma!
    I am deeply immersed within the critical culture and reform process and it is sad to say that I maintain my “Critical_Chiro” pseudonym for the sole purpose of avoiding personal attach from the subluxation true believers within my own profession. I know of two outspoken critics who have had their jobs threatened, had attack lawyerssent after them and vexatious claims made against them to the registration boards in an attempt to silence and bankrupt them (Its not just medicine that this happens).
    The evidence for chiropractic is changing rapidly and I have cited many articles and pointed this blog in the direction of researchers. The main frustration I have is not the criticism which is essential to reform but rather the knee-jerk judgements that we all are uncritical subluxationists.

    @Frank Collins
    Your knee jerk dogmatic response is what I find so frustrating! You know full well that I do not genuflect to the high altar of subluxation and inate so to label me as such is disingenuous! Dale is not one by the way so you have got the wrong Dale and made assumptions yet again. I communicate with him regularly and he is very active within the anti-subluxation critical chiropractic community!

    • @Critical_Chiro
      What I have a really hard time wrapping my head around is why people like you keep clinging on to the “Chiropractor” title. We all seem to agree that the basic ideas behind chiropractic theory and techniques as devised by the ignorant DD Palmer are pure nonsense. Subluxation and its purported effects do not exist. That some chiropractors have adopted other techniques and methods and promote sound lifestyle and diet etc. is really beside the point, the problem is all the idiots who continue to sell useless “adjustments” and what is even worse, antiscientific dangerous activities like anti-vaccine propaganda.
      Why sensible people who happened to end up in this “profession” and have later come to their senses and found that it is no good, do not get out of there and take up physiotherapy or something less riddled with deception and snake-oil commercialism. Cannot be so difficult, or…?

      • @Björn Geir
        Your observations mirror ones I have with critical chiropractors. Not surprisingly critical physio’s I talk to have similar issues with the dinosaurs and guru’s doing identical things in their profession! Those of us that are following the evidence are essentially going down the same path!
        The BS merchants here in Australia are attempting to undermine the universities and set up a vitalistic private college in South Australia. So just as the profession makes advances they try to drag us back into the dark ages! We should excise the BS merchants label them as outdated “Vitalistic Chiro’s”, cast them adrift and move on and create a new title for ethical, evidence based chiro’s.
        Funny you should make that comment as I am in discussions with the relevant people at the uni about doing a PhD and going down the research/academic path! As I am about to turn 50 this must be my mid life crisis! What is even more interesting is its Edzard among others who piqued my interest in research! Wonders never cease!

    • @ Critical_Chiro on Saturday 16 July 2016 at 02:08

      “Your knee jerk dogmatic response is what I find so frustrating!”

      Why are you surprised? You post complete crap, knowing it so, and think you won’t be taken to task over it? Gawd help me. (By-the-way, it is “kneejerk”, not separate words, and it isn’t just language with which you have problems.)

      “You know full well that I do not genuflect to the high altar of subluxation and inate so to label me as such is disingenuous!”

      Then why post such abject nonsense? You bring it on yourself and the smallest degree of introspection might show you that. (By-the-way, it is “innate”. The red underscore means something when you are writing the post.)

      “Dale is not one by the way so you have got the wrong Dale and made assumptions yet again. I communicate with him regularly and he is very active within the anti-subluxation critical chiropractic community!”

      Yeah, Not-a-Doc Dale; far too cute and with a high level of self-affection. The only one I could find, after a search, is Dale Comrie. Given the wording used, I suspect it is him. If he refrained from being a smart-arse, he may start to make some sense.

      “The evidence for chiropractic is changing rapidly and I have cited many articles and pointed this blog in the direction of researchers. The main frustration I have is not the criticism which is essential to reform but rather the knee-jerk judgements that we all are uncritical subluxationists.”

      Well, either the Prof is totally incompetent or what you provide lacks substance. Don’t punt on the latter. As Björn says, repeatedly, show evidence and people, including me, will believe anything, even homeopathy, but there isn’t anything of worth. What you don’t seem to internalise is that Björn is a real doctor who cuts people open and changes their lives for the better, whereas you faff about with backs and your colleagues call themselves “doctor”. Why don’t you do as Björn suggests and retrain as a physio?

      As I have said, more times than I can remember, medicine scrutinises itself closely and constantly and roots out renegades where it can. Not so chiropractic, it can’t even work out what is chiro and what isn’t. And (I know) you want to remain a part of this nonsense? No wonder I lost any respect for you.

  • @FrankCollins
    Actually its knee jerk or knee-jerk not kneejerk! Red underscore under the single word! Splitting hairs!
    Dale Comrie is actually very active in Chiropractic Australia and the reform process. I know him personally and he is a reformer worthy of your support! He is definitely not Doc Dale. Doc Dale is not even Australian and his replies on this site are well thought out and to the point!
    Over the years I have repeatedly shown you reform, reformers, research and researchers to no avail! You need to start making the distinction otherwise its indiscriminate carpet bombing!
    A recent Systematic Review and meta-analysis by neurosurgeons on chiropractic and cervical artery dissections noted “medical dogma” and high risk of bias when it comes to chiropractic!
    As I have said, more times than I can remember, I am all for pointing out the BS but it has to be balanced by support for reform and the reformers! Regulars on this site are good at pointing out the BS but balk at taking the next step!
    As for “faffing about with backs” Hmmmmm! Rather a lot of faffed-up backs out there Frank causing a major burden on the overstretched medical system! If we stick to faffing around with faffed-up backs and ditch subluxation there is a future!
    “medicine scrutinizes itself closely and constantly and roots out renegades where it can”
    I would have to agree that a similar critical culture is sadly lacking in chiropractic (but not non-existent) and where it is active it gets attacked from the true believers on one side for questioning the faith and from the other by external critics for not being critical enough! This is one of the joys of being a critical evidence based chiro! You get frustrated and hammered from all sides!
    You may be surprised that discussions on critical chiropractic forums mirror much of what is said on this forum.
    I have also made my views on the abuse of the title “doctor” abundantly clear on this site more times than I care to remember!

    • Critical_Chiro wrote: “A recent Systematic Review and meta-analysis by neurosurgeons on chiropractic and cervical artery dissections noted “medical dogma” and high risk of bias when it comes to chiropractic!”

      FYI, that paper has been torn to shreds:

      Harriet Hall, MD
      “I ask you to imagine that there is a pharmaceutical drug that fits this description. Imagine that there are the same numbers of studies showing an association of that drug with a deadly side effect like stroke or death. The FDA would pull it off the market; they wouldn’t wait for definite evidence of causation that fulfilled all of Hill’s criteria. And I think the people who are making excuses for neck manipulation would want them to take that drug off the market. I don’t think they would want to take such a drug.”
      https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/chiropractic-and-stroke-no-evidence-for-causation-but-still-reason-for-concern/

      Mark Crislip, MD:
      “If chiropractic neck manipulation were a medication? Based on the severity of the potential reaction it would have a black box warning in the PDR. If side effects were combined with efficacy, chiropractic would never be approved, much less make it out of clinical trials.”
      https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/chiropractic-ignoring-the-precautionary-principle-since-1895/

    • @Critical_Chiro

      You said:

      Over the years I have repeatedly shown you reform, reformers, research and researchers to no avail! You need to start making the distinction otherwise its indiscriminate carpet bombing!

      ‘Reformed Chiropractors’, perhaps one day ‘United Reformed Chiropractors’, different from ‘Reformed United Chiropractors’? Clearly there is no true chiropractor (equivalent to the ‘no true Scotsman’ fallacy). You seem to be wanting to emulate religions, with no limit to the number of chiropractic sects.

      The root problem is that, at its core, there is no convincing evidence that chiropractic, with or without subluxations, makes any meaningful difference to any condition, beyond what one would expect from TLC and placebo effects, combined with regression to the mean, spontaneous resolution and all those other good things that encourage post hoc ergo propter hoc reasoning. I shall remain an undiscriminating atheist where chiropractic is concerned, however much that hurts you because you believe your sect is better than others.

    • @ Critical_Chiro on Wednesday 20 July 2016 at 08:08

      “Actually its knee jerk or knee-jerk not kneejerk! Red underscore under the single word! Splitting hairs!”

      No, you don’t understand. In the same way you want to redefine science, I’ve decided to redephine and/or re-spell words when I want. I won’t be limited to any words, nor will I seek reference to a dikshonary. I will be a kiropractor of words.

      “Dale Comrie is actually very active in Chiropractic Australia and the reform process. I know him personally and he is a reformer worthy of your support! He is definitely not Doc Dale. Doc Dale is not even Australian and his replies on this site are well thought out and to the point!”

      Well thought out? S/he displays the same cognitive dissonance as you, so no surprise with that comment.

      “Over the years I have repeatedly shown you reform, reformers, research and researchers to no avail! You need to start making the distinction otherwise its indiscriminate carpet bombing!”

      When (if) kiro ever shows efficacy over any other form of treatment in properly controlled trials, I will accept the results. Until then, kyro deserves “carpet bombing”, as do the adherents to the cult.

      “A recent Systematic Review and meta-analysis by neurosurgeons on chiropractic and cervical artery dissections noted “medical dogma” and high risk of bias when it comes to chiropractic!”

      Many would disagree with your take on the study, as evidenced on this blog.

      “As I have said, more times than I can remember, I am all for pointing out the BS but it has to be balanced by support for reform and the reformers! Regulars on this site are good at pointing out the BS but balk at taking the next step!”

      As I have asked several times, reform what – something that no basis for existence?

      “As for “faffing about with backs” Hmmmmm! Rather a lot of faffed-up backs out there Frank causing a major burden on the overstretched medical system! If we stick to faffing around with faffed-up backs and ditch subluxation there is a future!”

      Sadly, many people are sooks and think post hoc ergo propter hoc when it comes to a treatment actually doing something. As with the old adage, sometimes a cold takes seven days, other times a week.

      ***************************************************************************************
      “medicine scrutinizes itself closely and constantly and roots out renegades where it can”
      I would have to agree that a similar critical culture is sadly lacking in chiropractic (but not non-existent) and where it is active it gets attacked from the true believers on one side for questioning the faith and from the other by external critics for not being critical enough! This is one of the joys of being a critical evidence based chiro! You get frustrated and hammered from all sides!
      You may be surprised that discussions on critical chiropractic forums mirror much of what is said on this forum.
      I have also made my views on the abuse of the title “doctor” abundantly clear on this site more times than I care to remember.
      **************************************************************************************
      This only demonstrates that khiro has no reason for existing. Seriously, aren’t you embarrassed that chhiro started from DD Palmer?

  • @Blue Wode
    Have you read Harriet’s review! She did not tear it to shreads!
    It is telling that not once did she acknowledge that the authors were not chiropractors! She repeatedly called them “they”. The whole thing was aimed at portraying the systematic review and meta-analysis as the chiropractic profession burrying its head in the sand! She also failed to answer the Neurosurgeons conclusions of poor quality and the high risk of bias of medical reports in regards to adverse events. She went through the Class II and class III studies and comfirms their poor quality, interviewer bias (thats medical interviewer), recall bias (patient), reasons for seeing the chiropractor was not assessed (by the Dr), records did not reveal whether a patient had had neck manipulation (medical records). She is agreeing with the neurosurgeons. This issue of poor adverse event reporting was covered approximately 2 years ago here:
    https://www.mja.com.au/insight/2014/7/support-chiropractor-reporting
    We have also repeatedly discussed this and you portray it as an issue unique to chiropractic! I’m all for an accurate reporting system for all professions as I have repeatedly stated in the past!
    Not long ago I followed up on this issue with senior doctors to find out if anything had eventuated! They replied that there was sniveling from the hospitals over who would finance it and it went no further!
    She then cites Edzard Ernst in regards to Phrenic nerve injury! We have also discussed the poor quality of those case reports as well! Only one doctor accurately described what the chiropractor did, the rest assumed and in one the patient clearly described the procedure which was a bog standard Levator Scapulae stretch used by just about every profession and the doctor then called it a “chiropractic neck manipulation” (that particular study was then cited by radiopedia, very poor!).
    Mark Crislip in that post discusses forces applied to the neck. He inaccurately used a lumbar study and applied it to the cervical spine! I called this error to his attention twice and have still not recieved a reply! He then incorrectly equated it to hanging and whiplash and added the image of a noose to ramp up the emotion! Unimpressed!
    @Frank Odds
    I happily belong to the evidence based sect no arguments there and our first tenet is “Subluxation is a load of BS!”
    You belong to the entrenched dogmatic critic sect whose first tenet is “All chiropractors are rabid subluxationists and reform is non-existent!” Your next tenet should be “Its about time we supported the reformers within the chiropractic profession that share our beliefs!”
    I never discount the importance of placebo or nocebo in any clinical encounter Frank and I discuss regression to the mean with my patients and in reports to my referring doctors! My treatment goal with every patient is to make them independent and in control! I tell them that I look forward to the day when they tell me to “Get Nicked!”

  • @Blue Wode
    I understand it well Blue and apply it in my practice! The precautionary principle applies to all approaches to the cervical spine, not just chiropractic. Looking at the evidence base for all approaches it is low to moderate! If you look at adverse event reporting for all approaches it is non-existent and desperately needed by ALL!
    So if the evidence base is similar then cost/benefit and risk/benefit comes into play and chiropractic is a strong option for the conservative treatment of chronic neck pain, cervicogenic headaches etc!
    What we both agree upon is blanket over treatment for non-existent subluxations! There the cost/benefit is for the practitioners bank balance and the risk/benefit for the patient is unacceptable no matter how rare!
    Thanks for that first reference, I don’t have that one in my library! I agree with its and that is one reason I read all articles in full no matter who the author is and what profession they are from and not rely on abstracts which often have me scratching my head as they bear little resemblance to the full article! Some on this blog should do likewise! 🙂
    That article is for back pain and is from 2005. I would recommend you read the 2008 special supplement of The Spine Journal where Dr Scott Haldeman invited leaders in all fields to write an article showing the evidence base for all the major approaches for the management of chronic low back pain:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Evidence-informed+management+of+chronic+low+back+pain+with
    I was surprised with the level of evidence across the board and the summary by Dr Haldeman forever changed my views on research! Until then I assumed that the medical approaches had strong evidence!
    So looking at the cost/benefit and risk/benefit of chiropractic it comes out near the top and should be a first line treatment for the conservative management of chronic low back pain!
    Second referenced article by Edzard I agree with him! Hands off the babies! No arguments there!
    The ICPA list of research is solid case studies and the plural of anecdote does not equal evidence!
    The issue of the difficulty blinding any manual therapy research has been discussed here by Edzard in the past. I sent him two articles, one by Howard Vernon on a novel sham, and he thought that they looked promising! De-tuned ultrasound used by the physios as a sham also looks promising!

    • Critical_Chiro wrote: “if the evidence base is similar then cost/benefit and risk/benefit comes into play and chiropractic is a strong option for the conservative treatment of chronic neck pain, cervicogenic headaches etc!”

      No, it’s not. See here: https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/compare-and-contrast/ Reports of deaths after chiropractic treatment are “about three times the number of deaths from trovafloxacin, an excellent antibiotic abandoned in the U.S. as too dangerous”.

      Critical_Chiro wrote: “looking at the cost/benefit and risk/benefit of chiropractic it comes out near the top and should be a first line treatment for the conservative management of chronic low back pain!”

      I disagree. It cannot be recommended while there continues to be a lack of standardisation in the profession:

      QUOTE
      “Chiropractors view the spine as an entity. Where they diagnose ‘subluxations’, they will normally manipulate and ‘adjust’ them (11). And ‘subluxations’ will be diagnosed in the upper spine, even if the patient suffers from back pain. Thus many, if not most back pain patients receive upper spinal manipulations. It follows that the risks of this treatment should be included in any adequate risk assessment.”

      Ref: Spinal manipulation for the early management of persistent non-specific low back pain — a critique of the recent NICE guidelines, Edzard Ernst, Int J Clin Pract (18th August 2009).

      Reference (11) is Ernst E. Chiropractic: a critical evaluation. J Pain Sympt Man 2008; 35: 544–62. Page 6 of the paper mentions a report that indicates that only 11% of all cervical manipulations are “appropriate” and gives the reference Coulter I, Hurwitz E, Adams A, et al. The appropriateness of manipulation and mobilization of the cervical spine. Santa Monica, CA: RAND, 1996:18e43.

  • @Blue Wode
    Have to disagree Blue! If all approaches have a similar evidence base then comparing likes is essential. There must be a valid clinical reason to treat! That is why I discussed the conservative management of chronic neck and low back pain and not mythical subluxations.

    Your point in regards to standardization is a good one! I have been having similar discussions with chiropractors on this issue. The education here across all the universities is to a high standard and is enforced by CCEA. Then the graduates go out and some associations seems happy to accredits total BS courses for continuing education hours! This seriously annoys many chiro’s and needs to be addressed! A good first step would be for the registration board to review who can accredit continuing education and clamp down on BS courses! This would send shock waves through the subbie ranks! Forcing them to practice based on current best practice and clinical guidelines would cause them to burst an artery! (Pun intended!)

    • @ Critical_Chiro wrote: “Have to disagree Blue! If all approaches have a similar evidence base then comparing likes is essential…Your point in regards to standardization is a good one!”

      @ Critical_Chiro

      What is it that you don’t get about the negative risk/benefit profile for chiropractic?

  • @Blue Wode
    In regards to subluxation there is no argument Blue!
    In regards to following evidence based guidelines and best practice for the management of chronic conditions its a different kettle of fish!
    Time for the critics to support reformers following the guidelines!
    Contrary to what is entrenched dogma to many on this site Blue we are not all subluxationists!

    • @ Critical_Chiro

      How can chiropractic be an option when many chiropractors don’t follow evidence based guidelines – i.e. how can medical doctors and the public be confident that they are seeing an evidence based chiropractor when there is no standardisation across the profession? As has been pointed out to you several times before, it’s usually a lucky dip.

      • In regards to guideline compliance it is an issue across the board! There have been many studies recently on this topic! As with any consumer choice Caveat emptor and do your homework!

        • Critical_Chiro wrote: “As with any consumer choice Caveat emptor and do your homework!”

          Are you being serious? Regulated, conventional medicine evaluates therapies on behalf of patients and follows evidence based standards. Are you saying that you’re happy for the onus to be on chiropractic patients to separate the wheat from the chaff despite chiropractors being regulated in order to protect patients from bad practice?

          • No I would like to see the regulations tightened up so the fringe are forced to reform or perish!
            As for GP compliance to clinical guidelines I was surprised by a recent article on the poor levels. Will have to dig it up! There are good and bad in every profession, patients know it and my referring doctors know it and that is one of the benefits of the referral relationship! Accountability!

        • @ Critical_Chiro on Monday 01 August 2016 at 02:42

          “In regards to guideline compliance it is an issue across the board! There have been many studies recently on this topic! As with any consumer choice Caveat emptor and do your homework!”

          You have written some dopey things but this is at the top of the heap. BW points out the obvious problem with your ridiculous assertion, but it goes further than that.

          Even chiros can’t agree what chiro is; they use different methods (some so laughable, it defies sense); clicky things that are comedic and impart so little force/energy they couldn’t knock a mosquito over; take X-rays needlessly to find something that doesn’t exist; and promote other forms of witchcraft that make chiro look respectable. Yet, despite all this, you tell us chiro is a medical profession deserving of serious consideration.

          It is true chiros do have regulatory bodies but these are next to useless because they are so ineffective. How indeed does a regulatory body enforce standards when no one knows what constitutes chiropractic? Now, you think prospective suckers should exercise due diligence in seeking out a chiro? How on earth would they do that when chiros can’t even agree on what form of bullshit they employ?

          Really? Retrain in a real profession. I haven’t taken you seriously for a long time but you’ve now taken it past absurd.

          • @Frank Collins
            You are so focused on the BS and have been carpet bombing for so long that you are blind to reform and incapable of change. You are too used to shooting the messenger! (Dale is a good example!)
            @BW made some good points about how can patients separate the good from the bad. My point is that this is no different to selecting a surgeon or any health care provider. There are surgeons who I refer to who are superb and others who I would never refer to and are not held in high regard by their peers! My referring doctors know exactly how I practice and refer accordingly. We have had this conversation many times on this blog!
            “How indeed does a regulatory body enforce standards when no one knows what constitutes chiropractic?”
            This is an issue here where one association refuses to accredit some courses for ongoing education hours and the other seems to be happy accrediting just about anything sent to them! There are heated discussions on this topic here!
            Point out the BS but you also need to support reform and the reformers! We have had this conversation as well many,many times!
            P.S. Sorry for the slow response but I have been a tad busy treating “suckers” referred by doctors!

  • http://www.collective-evolution.com/2016/07/25/prescription-drugs-are-killing-us-meet-one-doctor-out-of-many-who-just-published-a-paper-about-it/

    I was not going to reply to this thread, mainly because no one replies to any valid points about the medical practices I have to watch day in and day out.

    It is exhausting hearing you people babble on and on about the empirical evidence that you need for validity in chiropractic, and yet there is absolutely no empirical evidence that supports physical therapy presented when I ask for it. The article above discusses how the medical profession is now the 3rd largest cause of death in the US. The research being used to prescribe medication after medication, is unethical and skewed.

    No surgeons responded to this article defending how you can literally cut people open, doing harm, with no just cause.

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/06/18/unnecessary-surgery-usa-today-investigation/2435009/

    Not every doctor is 100% doing the right thing. Medical, chiropractic, surgeon, ENT, etc. There are bad fish. You have heard multiple chiropractors acknowledge the weak points in the profession on this thread. You have seen us collaborate on ways to strengthen our profession. But where is the give and take? Are you all really in 100% support of the medical profession as it is today?

    • Trent Mozingo wrote: “The article above discusses how the medical profession is now the 3rd largest cause of death in the US.”

      @ Trent Mozingo

      Here’s medicine’s answers to its critics:

      Part 1
      http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/answering-our-critics-part-1-of-2/
      Part 2
      http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/answering-our-critics-part-2-of-2-whats-the-harm/

      And here’s a snippet from Death by Medicine:

      QUOTE
      “Doctor-bashers use their numbers to argue that alternative medicine is safer. Maybe it is. I suppose not treating at all would be safer still. It depends on how you define ‘safe’. To my mind, a treatment is not very ‘safe’ if it causes no side effects but lets you die. Most of us don’t just want ‘safe’: we want ‘effective’. What we really want to know is the risk/benefit ratio of any treatment. The ironic thing is that all the statistics these doctor-bashers have accumulated come from the medical literature that those bashed doctors have written themselves. Scientific medicine constantly criticizes itself and publishes the critiques for all to see. There is NOTHING comparable in the world of alternative medicine.”

      Link http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/death-by-medicine/

    • @ Trent Mozingo on Tuesday 26 July 2016 at 23:13

      You provide a link to some nutjob website and expect to be taken seriously? It only took about 30 seconds to find a story by the creator of this “revelationary” website about crop circles and that he makes these statements;

      “While he was able to come up with a scientifically feasible explanation for this phenomenon, he fails to address how hoaxers could come into possession of such advanced technology. It’s clear that there would be no other way to make some of these circles, so what is really going on here?”, and,

      Whatever the case may be, the fact that scientists are taking note should signal that this phenomenon is worth our attention.”

      I suppose, though, it is about on par with the quality of research undertaken by chiros. As long as they want to believe something, it muuuuussssssttttt be true. Really Mozingo, is that the quality of you as a professional?

      “No surgeons responded to this article defending how you can literally cut people open, doing harm, with no just cause.”

      When you provide real evidence of this occurring, please provide it, rather than outlandish claims?

      “Not every doctor is 100% doing the right thing. Medical, chiropractic, surgeon, ENT, etc. There are bad fish. You have heard multiple chiropractors acknowledge the weak points in the profession on this thread. You have seen us collaborate on ways to strengthen our profession. But where is the give and take? Are you all really in 100% support of the medical profession as it is today?”

      Tu Quoque, Red Herring, Special Pleading, Plea to the Middle Ground, and False Dichotomy! Well done, only five Logical Fallacies. I am disappointed though, with your mindset, I expected more in such a short paragraph.

      Mozingo, go and find a real profession, not some half-baked pseudo-science fit only for dummies.

      • “As long as they want to believe something, it muuuuussssssttttt be true”

        I would say that it is just as easy to pin you as, “as long as you do not want to believe in something, it CANNNNNOOOOTTTTTT be true.”

        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3399029/

        This research states how the adjustment can activate the central nervous system, and alter biomechanics of the spinal segments. Read if you want.

        I am not a doctor basher. I refer to pain management clinics, neurosurgeons, and primary MDs regularly. What you biased people are not seeing is that with an alternative approach at the beginning of a treatment plan, many unnecessary medications can be reduced. Many unnecessary surgeries can be reduced. If you are an MD that is not open to that. If your ego is too strong to coincide with alternative care, then so be it. I am not sure that anyone cares, and thankfully, your hard work to be the staple of health care has finally taken the medical costs in this country that I work in to astronomical levels. Good for you. Your wallet is certainly proud. The CDC released the numbers that medical error is the 3rd leading cause of death in the US, but do not worry, the big pharma lobbyist are having them redo their numbers. It will be back to positive studies that undermine the negative, just like the majority of pharmaceutical studies.

        http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa013259#t=abstract

        and here is a study based on arthroscopic knee surgery. Sure, it is a subjective review. I am sure that is not good enough.

        • @ Trent Mozingo on Wednesday 27 July 2016 at 13:59

          Well, you don’t disappoint; you start with a Tu Quoque and it goes downhill quickly thereafter. What is about Logical Fallacies you don’t understand? It is like talking to some school kid who thinks they are a great orator when they keep spouting fallacy after fallacy.

          So much for the study which you claim states, “This research states how the adjustment can activate the central nervous system, and alter biomechanics of the spinal segments.”, when it says this;

          “Based upon the experimental literature, we propose that SMT may produce a sustained change in the synaptic efficacy of central neurons by evoking a high frequency, bursting discharge from several types of dynamically-sensitive, mechanosensitive paraspinal primary afferent neurons.” and this;

          “Conclusions

          In conclusion, spinal manipulation could affect the nervous system by activating paraspinal sensory neurons during the maneuver itself and/or by altering spinal biomechanics. Biomechanical changes which follow the manipulation would, in turn, modulate paravertebral sensory neuron signals. As a short-lasting, dynamic mechanical stimulus, spinal manipulation may take advantage of two signalling characteristics of the nervous system: 1) inherent high frequency signalling properties of dynamically-sensitive primary afferent neurons and 2) response properties of post-synaptic neurons. Experimental studies reveal that spinal manipulation evokes a high frequency discharge in some primary afferents. In experimental studies not using spinal manipulation, spatial and/or temporal summation of high frequency input produces sustained changes in synaptic efficacy. Future studies directed at understanding how central neurons are affected by high frequency sensory input from paraspinal tissues during the manipulation are warranted based upon the literature and should contribute to our understanding of the mechanisms for spinal manipulation’s action.”

          Did you not notice the fifth word in the paragraph above?

          “your hard work to be the staple of health care has finally taken the medical costs in this country that I work in to astronomical levels”

          Do you really believe this tripe? Perhaps you should read more widely than alt-med sites? Increased life expectancy is one contributor to increased medical costs, as is the number of diseases that can now be successfully treated; see if you can find any of the number of others?

          “The CDC released the numbers that medical error is the 3rd leading cause of death in the US, but do not worry, the big pharma lobbyist are having them redo their numbers. It will be back to positive studies that undermine the negative, just like the majority of pharmaceutical studies.”

          This has been dealt with on this site countless number of times. I am not even going to bother with it. If your ignorance is so profound, nothing, including facts, will dispel it.

          “here is a study based on arthroscopic knee surgery”

          Yep, that is what medicine does. What meaningful PROPER studies does chiro do?

          Now on to you;

          From your blog – http://newstarthealthcenter.blogspot.com.au/
          ****************************************************
          As far as business marketing goes, I would say big Pharma are geniuses. They control the health care market, and they have created a health care system that seems to only have ONE method of treatment, pharmaceuticals. We have no connection to the adverse affects of medications and the traditional medical system.

          As I mentioned earlier, the traditional medical system is necessary, but I encourage you to try and understand that it is not necessarily the best choice for your initial method of care.

          Diet and lifestyle based conditions like high blood pressure, pre-diabetes, hypercholesterolemia, and obesity are addressed with synthetic medications to cover up the symptoms, instead of the doctor taking the time to address the root cause of these condition to prevent them.

          Try Alternative Medicine First

          This blog is to encourage each of you to further explore into the alternative medicine avenue.

          The true beauty of alternative/holistic care, is that is will actually follow the Hippocratic Oath, “If at least, I will do no harm”.

          Holistic medicine such as
          Massage Therapy
          Chiropractic Therapy
          Nutritional Supplementation
          Herbal Supplementation
          Reiki
          Yoga

          Regardless of the symptom that you start to have. If you have been diagnoses with a chronic condition, find a holistic provider and just get a second opinion with their treatment options. If they can keep you off of a single medication, your health will benefit.
          *******************************************************

          From this one – http://new-starthealthcenter.com/laser-assisted-fat-loss.html

          If you have or are considering Liposuction, take a look at Laser Lipo. We utilize a cold laser non-invasively to turn fat cells into energy. This process allows you to lose inches and weight fast, safely and effectively. Our Laser Lipo will have those hard to lose inches melting away.

          LOSE INCHES!
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          LOSE UP TO 18 INCHES IN 42 DAYS
          Zero Side Effects
          Zero Pain
          Zero Surgery
          Zero Down Time
          Add a Detoxification Program to Lose Inches and Weight

          ***************************************************************

          From this – http://new-startsolution.com/index.html

          Why Join The New-Start Solution?
          The 4-Phase System is designed to Restore Your Health!
          It is a Step-By-Step, FOOLPROOF Plan!
          Endless Support from an Active Physician, Dr. Moz!
          Online Consultations with an Active Physician!
          ALL from the Safety and Security of Your OWN HOME!
          Your Health Can Not Afford Not To!!!

          *********************************************************

          And from – http://new-starthealthcenter.com/new-start-solution.html

          The New-Start Solution is not just another fad diet, it is:
          A food elimination diet
          A concise meal plan
          Nutritional Supplementation
          A physician monitored system

          ************************************************************

          My conclusion is that you are not just a crackpot but an unscrupulous quack who misrepresents himself and promotes witchcraft. Also, you are NOT a primary care physician but a deluded chiro with an insurmountable and unjustified ego coupled with total cognitive dissonance.

          • Look skip, I am not sure who you think you are. What you think you have done with your life, but do not ever attack my character from your keyboard. Cognitive dissonance? have I staggered one time from the principle of my thoughts? No

            By definition, a primary care physician is a physician who usually is the first health professional to examine a patient and who recommends secondary care physicians, medical or surgical specialists with expertise in the patient’s specific health problem, if further treatment is needed.

            So, yes, I am just that. It is within my scope of practice.

            I did not start with a tu Quoque, I was merely mocking your ignorant hypocrisy. I am glad you learned a new word though and spray it every where you can.

            I like that you accept that a study for arthroscopic knee surgery is useless in regard to osteoarthritis. But, why does the medical practice of arthroscopic surgery for osteoarthritis continue to happen?

            I do not care to argue with you. Clearly you have an agenda. But please, keep reading my work, hell, maybe even sign up for the new-start solution. Most keyboard warriors could use the help.

          • @ Trent Mozingo on Thursday 28 July 2016 at 20:47

            “Look skip”
            Yes, I am Australian, if that is what you mean.

            “I am not sure who you think you are.”

            I am an ordinary person with a fervent dislike of pseudo-science (alt-med and others), duplicity, misrepresentation, religion, or any other form of delusional belief systems. I am a compassionate person with a belief in social equity and that people should not prey upon one another. Is that enough?

            “What you think you have done with your life”

            Is that important, or is it another Logical Fallacy of which you seem very fond (rhetorical question alert)?

            “but do not ever attack my character from your keyboard.”

            If your character is what enables you to make outlandish claims, unsupported by evidence, then I will criticise you for it. If I was there in person, I would do exactly the same. I can say this because I have done so before. If you put yourself in a position to be subject to criticism, don’t be surprised if it happens. If you intend some form of intimidation, I would think twice about that.

            “Cognitive dissonance? have I staggered one time from the principle of my thoughts? No”

            There is a distinction between principles and new knowledge. Cognitive dissonance, largely, refers to the latter, though many have it with the former.

            “By definition, a primary care physician is a physician who usually is the first health professional to examine a patient and who recommends secondary care physicians, medical or surgical specialists with expertise in the patient’s specific health problem, if further treatment is needed.”

            It is a question of whether you are qualified to act as a primary care physician and the answer is clearly negative. Have you ever cut skin or had to tell someone they have a disease which will end their life shortly?

            “So, yes, I am just that. It is within my scope of practice.”

            Errr, no.

            “I did not start with a tu Quoque, I was merely mocking your ignorant hypocrisy. I am glad you learned a new word though and spray it every where you can.”

            If you don’t understand what is a Logical Fallacy and what you did constitutes just that, it is hard to know where or how you might understand. “Ignorant hypocrisy”? Please explain why? I have known the term for quite some time; you just provide numerous instances where its use is appropriate.

            For your information, the term should be capitalised for both words if one is capitalised, and every where should be “everywhere”. I only do this because you are such an pretentious knob with a poor command of language.

            “I like that you accept that a study for arthroscopic knee surgery is useless in regard to osteoarthritis. But, why does the medical practice of arthroscopic surgery for osteoarthritis continue to happen?”

            Medicine does research and learns from it. It may take time but, at least, it is faster than the 121 years ago that chiro was invented by a convicted charlatan and nothing much has happened since.

            “I do not care to argue with you.”

            Clearly, you do.

            “Clearly you have an agenda. But please, keep reading my work, hell, maybe even sign up for the new-start solution.”

            I explain that above, if you read it. Your invitation will not be taken up, even putting aside its remoteness from my location, simply because they are nonsense. You offer Reiki and what other energy healing nonsense? In short, you are a charlatan in the mold of Palmer.

            “Most keyboard warriors could use the help.”

            What is it about Logical Fallacies you do not understand or is it all of it? I do sense a form of attempted intimidation; I may be wrong but, rest assured, I would have no difficulty saying this to you face-to-face. I rarely do.

  • Cost effective conservative healthcare is critical to the current state of health in the United States. Healthcare providers must prioritize the well being of their patients. More so patients should be entitled to a wide array of options regarding their own personal healthcare,whether allopathic, complementary or alternative. When researching scientific literature, it is imperative to understand the hierarchy of evidence, but also to understand the context in which the scientific model governs. For example, randomized controlled trials are very popular in research, where you double blind the administer and recipient, control and placebo etcetera. But how does this model fit into complementary medicine such as Chiropractic? Chiropractic care emphasizes many factors of health such as: restoring joint biomechanics and connective tissue functionality, nutritional and lifestyle recommendations. For an elementary example with ragards to complementary care and the RCT, a plant needs water nutrients and sunlight to thrive and be healthy. Take a study with a 100 plants in a dark room. Give only 50 of those plants water, and you will still see that a majority of those plants will weap just like those void of water. So according to a RCT that water must not be beneficial, but can actually be detrimental to the plant and cause it to weap. Is that the case, no because we know it is intuitive that a plant needs water, sunlight and nutrients from the soil. All physiologic factors must be taken into consideration when administering healthcare. Fortunately, drugs and surgery work brilliantly for acute care but the healthcare profession must own up to the growing demands of chronic disease and disability via preventative and lifestyle care. Much research has been presented regarding chiropractic efficacy, cost effectiveness and safety. Healthcare professionals that stay current in research should know that the question of chiropractic validity has shifted from if it works towards how to integrate into the medical community. Practical application of research models must be utilized and respected, other than RCTs that favor pharmaceuticals. Healthcare does not have to be a system which only addresses pathology, but also optimizes physiology. If you are concerned about the mechanisms and the maladaptive physiology chiropractors treat here is a resource. http://cams.nycc.edu/estudent/cmSPDocuments.asp?ak=Bor9fwP5tQZJuyGdlx5Jk4QWT2dJiY2HjpMYkcVpnVqb22AesfSeBYx9AbMVJIyQquStukhXs9ITEdxrMJxIW8k7EceqNn6ThisibMYeZ2w3OpHl4k2wHvQRHqf68PwGcBEoBlHFASGVtFs3dmaI&CourseDocumentID=80302 My only intent is to be informative and progressive in helping others. Thanks for your time.

    • @Skyler

      You said:

      Take a study with a 100 plants in a dark room. Give only 50 of those plants water, and you will still see that a majority of those plants will weap just like those void of water.

      I don’t know the meaning of the word ‘weap’, but whether you meant ‘weep’ or ‘wilt’, you’re wrong. The plants given water will survive far longer than those left to dry out. The survival and recovery times for the two groups can be easily measured. This sort of experiment was done centuries ago. By depriving plants of just one of your three factors you can assess the relative importance of water. sunlight and soil nutrients to growth and survival.

      You can even deprive them of individual nutrients and work out what’s essential for growth and survival of particular plants. In the 19th century this was done for agricultural crops and we learned that NPK — nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium — were required, which led to progressive development of successful fertilizers. But these are now regarded by ‘organic’, ‘planet-friendly’ folk as ‘chemicals’ in much the same way as you deprecate pharmaceuticals.

      Real medicine has progressed by similar research approaches: discovering the causes of disease by designing meticulous experiments that rule in or out single factors and combinations of factors. What has chiropractic to offer by comparison? Mealy-mouthed apologies for genuine knowledge and understanding, just like your comment. “Much research has been presented regarding chiropractic efficacy, cost effectiveness and safety. Healthcare professionals that [sic] stay current in research should know that the question of chiropractic validity has shifted from if it works towards how to integrate into the medical community.” Much of the ‘best’ chiropractic ‘research’ has been discussed on this blog. It pales in comparison to real medical science.

      Chiropractic, like all other forms of faith-based medicine, remains strictly for the gullible. We can get perfectly adequate nutritional and lifestyle recommendations without chiropractors, thank you. And the suggestion that proper doctors don’t know or care about restoring joint biomechanics and connective tissue functionality is insulting to the medical profession. The basis of chiropractic remains tweaking spines, entirely without evidence to support your claims of efficacy.

  • @ Skyler on Thursday 28 July 2016 at 04:53

    Are you Skyler Pham?

    “Cost effective (delete conservative) healthcare is critical to the current state of health in the United States.”
    Yep.

    “Healthcare providers must prioritize the well being of their patients.”
    Is there another way?

    “More so patients should be entitled to a wide array of options regarding their own personal healthcare,whether allopathic, complementary or alternative.”
    Baseless assumption and erroneous.

    “When researching scientific literature, it is imperative to understand the hierarchy of evidence, but also to understand the context in which the scientific model governs. For example, randomized controlled trials are very popular in research, where you double blind the administer and recipient, control and placebo etcetera. But how does this model fit into complementary medicine such as Chiropractic?”
    Why should it be any different? Oh, you are using the Logical Fallacy, Special Pleading because you chiro is different.

    “Chiropractic care emphasizes many factors of health such as: restoring joint biomechanics and connective tissue functionality, nutritional and lifestyle recommendations.”
    Are you suggesting doctors and physios don’t consider these factors? Which rock do you live under?

    “For an elementary example with ragards to complementary care and the RCT, a plant needs water nutrients and sunlight to thrive and be healthy. Take a study with a 100 plants in a dark room. Give only 50 of those plants water, and you will still see that a majority of those plants will weap just like those void of water. So according to a RCT that water must not be beneficial, but can actually be detrimental to the plant and cause it to weap. Is that the case, no because we know it is intuitive that a plant needs water, sunlight and nutrients from the soil.”
    Another Logical Fallacy, False Analogy, and a ridiculous one at that.

    “All physiologic factors must be taken into consideration when administering healthcare.”
    Who would have thought? Are you going to write a paper on this?

    ” Fortunately, drugs and surgery work brilliantly for acute care but the healthcare profession must own up to the growing demands of chronic disease and disability via preventative and lifestyle care.”
    Yep, that is what happens in real medicine.

    “Much research has been presented regarding chiropractic efficacy, cost effectiveness and safety.”
    Really? Do you have some that counters the lack of evidence the prof has found? Please provide it?

    “Healthcare professionals that stay current in research should know that the question of chiropractic validity has shifted from if it works towards how to integrate into the medical community.”
    No, it hasn’t. If you have evidence, please provide it but, at this stage, you are kidding yourself.

    “Practical application of research models must be utilized and respected, other than RCTs that favor pharmaceuticals.”
    RCTs don’t favour anything other than provide evidence for what works and none for that which does not.

    “Healthcare does not have to be a system which only addresses pathology, but also optimizes physiology. If you are concerned about the mechanisms and the maladaptive physiology chiropractors treat here is a resource. http://cams.nycc.edu/estudent/cmSPDocuments.asp?ak=Bor9fwP5tQZJuyGdlx5Jk4QWT2dJiY2HjpMYkcVpnVqb22AesfSeBYx9AbMVJIyQquStukhXs9ITEdxrMJxIW8k7EceqNn6ThisibMYeZ2w3OpHl4k2wHvQRHqf68PwGcBEoBlHFASGVtFs3dmaI&CourseDocumentID=80302

    The document is behind a password barrier and, besides, it is from the New York Chiropractic College, hardly an unbiased institution.

    “My only intent is to be informative and progressive in helping others. Thanks for your time.”
    Your intention may be this, however, you have not provided anything but a meaningless, pointless, and erroneous post.

  • I too was anti Chiro. I suffered a whiplash type neck injury 1 year ago. I found no relief with conventional medicine, pills etc. Acupuncture and massage provided some relief. In frustration (persistent neck pain), I approached a Chiropractor. Reluctantly. I am most, most happy with the results. It is important to stretch the muscles that have led to the pathology causing the pain. Like any profession, in the wrong hands, can be disastrous. (Thanks Dr. Brian R.)
    PS. Hopefully the author too gets to experience the benefits of Chiro in his future.

    • @ “Jan” on Tuesday 16 August 2016 at 21:36

      “I too was anti Chiro. I suffered a whiplash type neck injury 1 year ago. I found no relief with conventional medicine, pills etc. Acupuncture and massage provided some relief. In frustration (persistent neck pain), I approached a Chiropractor. Reluctantly. I am most, most happy with the results. It is important to stretch the muscles that have led to the pathology causing the pain. Like any profession, in the wrong hands, can be disastrous. (Thanks Dr. Brian R.)”

      Well “Jan”, this is simply marvelous. Having been a long-term doubter, you were, in effect, “forced” to see a chiro because nothing else worked, but chiro did.

      “PS. Hopefully the author too gets to experience the benefits of Chiro in his future.”

      Ummm, the author is a chiro.

      This has given me a really good laugh. Only a chiro could be so dopey as to assume everyone else is as dopey and not see through the gaping holes of this BS. “Conventional medicine”, “pathology causing the pain”, “stretch the muscles”, and the last sentence of the first paragraph so badly written are so typical of a chiro writing this, thinking to them self I am so fiendishly clever no one will see through my brilliant ruse.

      LOL for all the wrong reasons, non-doctor Brian.

  • I AM ONE THAT GOES BY MY GUT INSTINKS PERIOD….IF I FEEL THAT CHIRO IS SHADY THEN I WALK AWAY OR ANY OTHER KIND OF DOCTORS PRACTICE….LIKE SOMEONE ONCE SAID…IT IS OUR BODY WHEN WE GO INTO ANY KIND OF THERAPY OR WHATEVER ELSE…WE AS A THE CLIENT MUST BE THE ONE TO NO WHEN WE DON’T FEEL SOMETHING IS NOT FEELING RIGHT WHETHER IT IS CHIROPRACTOR OR A THERAPIST STARTS TO MANIPULATE PARTS OF US…..SO THEREFORE AM I FOR CHIROPRACTIC OR THERAPY…THE ANSWER IS TO GO BY GUT INSTINKS BEING THERE IS ALSO AN OLD SAYING…NOT ALL CHIROPRACTERS OR THERAPISTS ARE GOOD….MANY ARE FAILED FAILURES TRYING TO ONLY DO MORE HARM THAN GOOD…MAYBE THAT IS FOR THEIR OWN SATISFACTION & YET GET PAID FOR DOING SO……..

    • Your gut instincts stink, but it’s good to no you can’t spell even simple words. Your post is trying to say ‘buyer beware’, there are good and bad in all walks of life. But as a society do we not have a duty at least to point people away from things that are ineffective? The problem with gut instincts is — as I think Carl Sagan once said — “I try not to think with my gut”.

      When you post again, please avoid shouting at readers in all caps.

    • Bart, did ever finish any form of schooling?

  • Dr. Preston H. Long,
    Hello Dr.

    In June of 2015 I began treatment with a Chiropractor (Chiropractor A) whose philosophy is to only adjust C5 to correct, “subluxation”. Specifically, my neck is straight because I have arthritis in C3, C4, and C5. My treatment plan was to have C5 adjusted 3 times a week for 12 weeks with the goal of adding the curve back into my neck. My hips immediately began feeling pressure and the pain got significantly worse over the 12-week period. I discontinued my care by advising the Chiropractor that I was not interesting in continued care with him because it was the most painful experience I had been through in my life.

    After seeking the care of another Chiropractor (Chiropractor B), I found out that the treatment plan by Chiropractor A very likely created a C shaped curve in my lower back. This was deduced from x-rays provided to me by Chiropractor A. The x-rays showed that at the beginning of the 12-weeks my lower spine was straight and at the end of the 12- weeks my lower spine has a C-Shape.

    This C shape curve has caused my tailbone to rub on my lower spine. The long term effect, I have been told is arthritis in my lower back.

    My question to you is: Do you have a medical explanation that explains why adjusting only C5 would cause a lower spine to curve with the consideration that a patient has arthritis in C3, C4, and C5 and those vertebrae’s are essentially fused together?

    Thanks you,

    • I wanted to add a correction to my previous post. The adjustment was done on C1 not C5.

      Thank you,

    • Your neck is not straight because you have arthritis in several segments, your neck has arthritis because your neck is too straight…distortions like this place stress on the joints which in turn become arthritic. I do doubt that adjusting C 5 would be the only answer for your problem, however.

  • The adjustment was done on C1 not C5

    Ouff… that sounds frightening. Good thing your vertebral arteries survived. I would never allow a chiropractor or anyone else do any kind of fiddling with my neck, especially the upper parts where the cirkulation to the brainstem and other important parts of my brain go through narrow holes in the C’s and can be compromised by “adjustments”.

  • If your back hurts for 30 years, and after seeing a chiropractor you go pain free for 30 years, was your money well spent?

    I believe with spinal manipulation, and chiropractors, a risk vs benefit analysis needs to be made. Many chiropractors claim to be able to cure all illnesses which stinks of quackery even to the untrained nose, but I personally did have a long period of suffering from lower back pain ended by a couple of trips to the chiro.

    I weighed up the pros and cons, and not being able to lift a pencil off the ground, the possible benefits outweighed the possible risks. If it didn’t work, hopefully the worst outcome would be a small amount of pain to my wallet.

    I can’t say for certain that the chiro “fixed” my back, or that long term damage that rears it’s ugly head in the future won’t occur, but for now I am happy.

  • If I hadn’t been getting chiropractic treatment over the past ten years, I would be in a wheelchair by now. I know for a fact I would. So if it is quackery or not I really do not care. I need it.

    • “If I hadn’t been getting chiropractic treatment over the past ten years, I would be in a wheelchair by now. I know for a fact…”
      I suggest you think about the difference between speculation and fact.

    • @ Tass on Thursday 08 September 2016 at 16:57

      “If I hadn’t been getting chiropractic treatment over the past ten years, I would be in a wheelchair by now. I know for a fact I would. So if it is quackery or not I really do not care. I need it.”

      I am intrigued. How do you know “for a fact” you would be in a wheelchair by now?

  • Having been in chiropractic education for 14 years…( I am back in full time practice now ), I can say for sure that this article is not accurate and the author is either misinformed or confused. I have been in this profession for 39 years now and know what our limitations are. We are no longer simply manipulators of spinal joints, let’s get that understood right away. Our scope of practice has expanded greatly since I was a student and we cover many areas of physical medicine, including spinal and extremity manipulation, rehabilitation, numerous therapy modalities, nutrition, etc. By the time our students graduate ( after 7 to 8 years ) , they have both an undergrad degree and a chiropractic degree, plus other options for advanced training…and all of their credits are accepted by manor universities.

    • QUOTE
      Some confuse the terms “dietitian” and “nutritionist,” and this tends to be erroneous.[1] However, in many countries and jurisdictions, the title “nutritionist” is not subject to professional regulation; any person may call themselves a nutrition expert even if they are wholly self-taught.[2] In the United Kingdom, Australia, parts of Canada, and most US states, the term nutritionist is not legally protected, whereas the title of dietitian can be used only by those who have met specified professional requirements. One career counselor attempting to describe the difference between the two professions to Canadian students suggested “all dietitians are nutritionists, but not all nutritionists are dietitians.”[3]
      END QUOTE, retrieved 2016-09-19 from:
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutritionist#Regulation_of_the_title_.22nutritionist.22

      Please properly explain to us your other “numerous therapy modalities”.

    • @
      J.S. Copeland on Monday 19 September 2016 at 14:35

      “Having been in chiropractic education for 14 years…( I am back in full time practice now ), I can say for sure that this article is not accurate and the author is either misinformed or confused.”

      You were in chiro “education” at Logan College where they teach;
      Activator Methods, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Activator_technique
      Active Release Technique (ART), https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3huEAQAXiY
      Applied Kinesiology, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applied_kinesiology
      Flexion-Distraction (COX),
      Gonstead System, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonstead_technique
      Graston Technique, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropractic_treatment_techniques#Graston_technique
      Pro-Adjustor, http://www.adjustorpro.com/
      Sacro-Occipital Technique (SOT),
      Soft Tissue,
      Thompson, and
      Upper Cervical Specific.

      I ran out of interest towards the end because it was becoming too ridiculous; ridiculous that adults believe this crap.

      “I have been in this profession for 39 years now and know what our limitations are.”

      Apparently not, Jimmy.

      At your place you;
      Stick needles in people’s ears http://copelandchiropracticandacupuncture.com/auriculotherapy/
      Flog them useless supplement premised on witchcraft http://copelandchiropracticandacupuncture.com/nutrition/
      Use dodgy practices with no evidence http://copelandchiropracticandacupuncture.com/medilift-microcurrent-face-body/
      Stick needles elsewhere http://copelandchiropracticandacupuncture.com/acupuncture/
      claiming to cure/treat these conditions;

      Allergies/Asthma Immune System Deficiency
      Anxiety/Depression Infertility
      Arthritis/Joint Problems Knee Pain
      Back Pain Macular Degeneration
      Bladder/Kidney Problems Menopausal Discomfort
      Childhood Illnesses Neck Pain/Stiffness
      Colds/Flu Pre-Menstrual Syndrome
      Cough/Bronchitis Paralysis/Numbness
      Dizziness Rhinitis
      Drug Addiction/Smoking Sciatica
      Fatigue Sexual Dysfunction
      Frozen Shoulder Shoulder Pain
      Gastrointestinal Disorders Sinusitis
      Gynecological Disorders Skin Problems
      Headache/Migraine Stress/Tension
      Heart Problems/Palpitations Tendonitis
      High Blood Pressure

      “We are no longer simply manipulators of spinal joints, let’s get that understood right away. Our scope of practice has expanded greatly since I was a student and we cover many areas of physical medicine, including spinal and extremity manipulation, rehabilitation, numerous therapy modalities, nutrition, etc.”

      Even more nonsense.

      “By the time our students graduate ( after 7 to 8 years ) , they have both an undergrad degree and a chiropractic degree, plus other options for advanced training…and all of their credits are accepted by manor universities.”

      During which time they learn vast amounts of pseudoscience.

      Jimmy, you are as big a crackpot as all other chiros. The evidence is clear (and you aren’t a doctor BTW).

  • Lol – most of your sources are from other sceptics –

    Very “scientific”

  • The biggest issue with your 20 things MOST chiropractors won’t tell you is the fact that you are attempting to generalize an entire profession based on the actions of a few. Do some chiropractors take too many x-rays? Yes, some do but so do some orthopedists and even dentists. For the most part palpation on the bones static position or how they move against one another in combination with patient symptomology is enough to establish an effective treatment plan for the diagnosis. Often findings from an initial exam are backed up by findings on radiographs or MRI’s. Most chiropractors don’t believe they can cure everything with a quick impulse to the spine, however it is proven that manipulation and soft tissue work can help with many nonmusculuoskeletal health issues including ones you have mentioned such as asthma. While it cannot be cured on the subluxation based model you claim we all follow. Adjusting the thoracic spine and mobilizing the rib cage can help improve respiration which significantly helps people with the condition. Research has proven the risk of stroke following cervical spine manipulation is not any greater than that of any member of the population (receiving treatment or not). Sometimes things do take time and years and years of a person breaking down their body can’t be fixed in a few short visits, but all treatment plans do have an expiration date to show improvement by. Chiropractic treatment has been proven to help in patients as young as a few days old even though the treatments greatly differ. Some doctors specialize in the care of pregnant women and infants/children. Our “vastly inferior education” uses the same physiology, pathology, and anatomy textbooks as medical schools. On average we spend over 500 hours more in anatomy class, 300 more in diagnosis classes, 200 more in neurology, 50 more in orthopedics, and 200 more in radiology. When taking into account all of the shared courses and a handful of additional ones including manipulation technique, nutrition, physiotherapy, and advanced imaging chiropractors spend just as much time, if not a few more class hours working on their “vastly inferior education”. With that being said we are not perfect. Every group of professionals have some who have potential to drag down the profession as a whole. However with that being said it is wrong to try and bash an entire group by the actions on a very small minority and chiropractic care does a lot more good than harm to people. One of the biggest things being the ability to remove people who can be effectively treated with our conservative based treatments so that people that really need to be under the care of MD’s can see them with the availability required and not waste taxpayer money on unnecessary prescriptions and procedures.

  • This thread is long and daunting. I have been seen over the years by all manner of medical professionals, therapists, and chiropractors for my conditions. They all found me to be “medically fascinating,” even beyond the usual term “medically interesting.” Because I am so fascinating for anyone treating patients, no matter the profession, I get a lot of attention when I come for a visit.

    Some background. I have a grade 4 Spondylolesthesis at the L5 S1 level. No, I am not a medical professional, I am just well versed on my own conditions. I am also a Type One Diabetic. The back problem was found when I was 13. The T1D was discovered when I was 16. Both are very severe.

    Here is what I have found to be true about health care FOR ME. No doctor or therapist can do it all. That is why there are specialists. That is why there are dentists, behavioral health professionals (and this breaks down significantly), primary care physicians, specialists like endocrinologists, cardiologists, neurologists, etc. etc. etc.

    Why?

    Because the human body is complex. A specialist can delve deeper into understanding of how one part of the body works better than a general practitioner.

    So, anyone arguing that a Chiropractor is a quack because they do not often do specialty care should also come to the same conclusion for a primary care physician.

    I see an ophthalmologist, spinal orthopedic surgeon, psychologist for PTSD, endocrinologist, and recently saw a cardiologist. I need specialists.

    I saw 2 DCs (doctors of chiropractic) when I was 13. The first one had never seen a back like mine. It was fascinating, after all….a rare condition (at least at the level that it was). He made adjustments when he should not have. He was not a good DC. So, I got a second opinion. I contacted another DC after months of pain and failed treatment. I had my x rays redone and a thorough physical and discussion with the second DC. He found me just as fascinating, but he did the right thing. He immediately referred me to a spinal orthopedic surgeon because Dc’s do not perform surgery, surgeons do. His expertise was more on the primary care level, not the specialist level. That is what most DCs are, unless they have more extensive education and training, such that a specialist MD would have.

    I also had a mishap in the medical world. 3 years after my spinal fusion, I began dropping weight rapidly, having excessive thirst, but more noticeably, I began vomiting repeatedly and violently. I was taken to the ER where medical physicians tested me to see if I was pregnant or on drugs. When neither test came back positive, they shrugged their shoulders and sent me home. Not long later, I went to another ER and that is when they found out that I was Type One Diabetic.

    In case you are unaware, this is an auto immune disease. The immune system gets confused and kills healthy cells in the body thinking they are germs. The cells killed in mine are the ones that make insulin…a vital hormone for survival. I could have died. Many kids, teens, and young adults die when they are not properly diagnosed for T1D. I run a blog about this disease and coping with a life-long requirement to wear an IV-like infusion set attached to a pump so I can artificially received this life-saving drug.

    You want to talk about scams. Let’s talk about Eli Lilly jacking up the price of insulin from $90 per vial in 2006 to $400+ per vial today. I spend an average of $5,000-$6,000 per year for just my life-saving treatment. That does not include my costs with specialists dealing with my spine issues.

    So, in conclusion, a bad doctor screwed up and a good doctor saved me from both the medical profession and the chiropractic profession. I was at the borderline of paralysis when I got that second opinion. I need forearm crutches to walk, but I CAN, thanks to a DC. I have also been able to come off of horrible medications for migraines by seeing a DC. My primary care gave me the drugs…that knocked me out most of the day when I had to take them to eliminated the migraines. The DC was able to do it without drugs.

    If you are struggling with the concept of a chiropractor, look at them as not being the medical verses chiro. Look at it as the primary care verses specialist instead. If any doctor claims they can do more than what their licensed, credentialed description offers, they are lying. Don’t trust THEM…no matter the profession. Don’t be all or nothing. It could save your life.

  • Yay I made it to the bottom! Tad bit much drama for me. Go enjoy your lives:) there is a lot out there:)

  • I had a stroke after chiropractor neck manipulation. It was vertebral artery was dissection that caused a stroke. I’m lucky to be alive. A week ago it was on the news that model Katie May died from a simple visit to a chiropractor for an adjustment, which ultimately left her with a fatal tear to an artery in her neck. You should think twice before go to chiro

  • I have cracked ribs from a chiropractor and suffered Stevens Johnson Syndrome due to an M.D. prescribing an anti-biotic for a simple skin eruption. Permanent damage to my body on both counts. Whatever happened to ‘Do no harm?’

  • I have to say I was shocked by this. My chiropractor saved my life from in-ept medical practitioners who nearly killed me with the drug regime prescribed for my accident related pain over 40 years ago. Since then I have become a firm believer in the benefits of the therapy, which is cost effective and gives results.

    As a medical student and a lecturer I know in South Africa a chiropractor has a far better education in anatomy and physiology than a doctor.

    It is apples with apples though, but my findings as an academic are that most educated and forward thinking medical professionals either do or would work with chiropractors for the benefit of the patient.

    • “As a medical student and a lecturer I know in South Africa a chiropractor has a far better education in anatomy and physiology than a doctor”
      as a medical student, you have a lot to learn, I suppose. you might refer to the anatomy of the musculoskeletal system, but there is more, much more.

    • Gail,

      I find it strange that “a medical student and a lecturer” has not learnt that:
      1. “in-ept” is not a medical term that I’m aware of, whereas “inept” *is* a defined word;
      2. “accident related” is a hyphenated adjective in English;
      3. “cost effective” is a hyphenated adjective in English;
      4. “forward thinking medical professionals”: “forward thinking” is also a hyphenated adjective in English — as are most compound adjectives, such as the adjective in the scientific term “signal-to-noise ratio”.

      I do not normally nitpick abuses of English grammar due to my own ineptitude. In your case, I’ve highlighted your errors because the website to which your name links specifically states:

      Learning for Adults by Adults

      A group of professional educators who are passionate about creating, designing and training superb learning content.

      I don’t think that even the Oxford comma would save that statement from disgrace.

  • My chiropractor saved my life from in-ept medical practitioners who nearly killed me with the drug regime prescribed for my accident related pain over 40 years ago. Since then I have become a firm believer in the benefits of the therapy, which is cost effective and gives results.

    The poster Gail Gibson seems to have a vested interest in chiropractic as a link on the website given leads to a chiropractor named Alexandra Gibson.
    Wife perhaps??

    If there is one thing popular chiropractors excel at, it is convincing their marks customers that they are lucky to have found them instead of the dangerous, even murderous doctors who almost killed them with their side-effect riddled Big-Pharma drugs. The (spurious?) text above is an excellent example of such “brainwashing” by a chiropractor. Even if I am a surgeon myself, I found myself many years ago being “conditioned” in a similar way by a chiropractor. I suddenly realised the man was leading me on into a habit of continuing financial support for “maintenance”. This prompted me to investigate deeper into the origins and nature of chiropractic and what I found was elemental in sparking a profound interest in questionable health care and quackery. The more examples I see of chiropractors marketing and methods, the more convinced I am that they have nothing to offer other than make-believe methodology. Many of them of course have adapted efficacious physiotherapy methodology but that is beside the point.

  • Wow, what a long and bitter discussion. I’m not the argumentative type but I’ll paint a target on myself and probe with a few questions. First of all, I’ll put out there that I am a Chiropractic Physician. I know there’s some argument about the validity of my profession using the term Dr. or physician but I’m comfortable using it as I did invest 8 years into a rigorous education as have my peers. I’d consider myself to be a medically-oriented DC. I’m not “anti-medicine,” I don’t feel like I have a fight with the MD’s in my town like some might and I also don’t feel like I have all the answers to every malady a patient may be experiencing. I also admit, and am embarrassed, that there are those in my profession who are dishonest and make outlandish claims about what they are able to successfully treat. That is very unfortunate but not exclusive to my field. I know that you’ve attempted to discredit what I do, based largely on the premise that there is little good, peer-reviewed evidence for it. It’s already been pointed out there is some research that supports my profession but I’m not under the illusion that it’s an enormous body of evidence though there is more research evidence published as time goes by. A question I have is if peer-reviewed, published research is the only form of evidence we should consider as being of any value? Does Dr. experience or patient experience count for anything? Also, at the heart of Chiropractic is joint manipulation/mobilization. If it (joint manipulation) is of no value why is it used by those in the mainstream medical community (DO’s, PT’s)? Also, I’m on very good terms with most medical professionals in my community and have frequent patient referrals from family Dr’s, Orthopedists, Neurologists, Dentists, etc. I know that’s not the form of evidence you praise but acceptance from a wide variety of professionals certainly must carry some credence, no? As I said, I’m not the argumentative type so an argument isn’t what I’m after here, I’m looking for a little civilized discussion.

    • @T

      Thanks for this post. You’re looking for a little civilized discussion, so let me discuss a few of your points.

      I know there’s some argument about the validity of my profession using the term Dr. or physician but I’m comfortable using it as I did invest 8 years into a rigorous education as have my peers.

      The problem is the content of the “rigorous education”. Since authentic doctors also spend 8 years studying, you do raise the question why you didn’t choose simply to study medicine (and therefore entitle yourself unequivocally to the designation of “physician”). I could link to many chiropractic colleges which seem to teach a lot of nonsense along with intensive anatomy, and I know Wikipedia is far from a 100% reliable source, but what it says about chiropractic education seems to sum up the problem. I think you’ve created a new kind of logical fallacy, a variant of the argument from authority: argument from time spent studying something.

      A question I have is if peer-reviewed, published research is the only form of evidence we should consider as being of any value? Does Dr. experience or patient experience count for anything?

      Short answers, respectively: ‘yes’, and ‘no’. Personal experience is only anecdote. At best it can stimulate genuine scientific research — plenty of discoveries stem from casual observations that are followed up by rigorous experimentation — but at worst, and in the present context, it can lead to a ratcheting up of subjective conviction that, on its own, may be mistaken. An earlier post on this blog covers the situation. It’s about a homeopath, but could equally apply to your chiropractic or any other form of camistry.

      If it (joint manipulation) is of no value why is it used by those in the mainstream medical community (DO’s, PT’s)?

      Aha! That’s a variant of the question I have posed many times to chiropractors on this blog. If you eschew the subluxations, vitalism and spiritualism that characterized chiropractic in its origins, what exactly is it you do as a chiropractor that distinguishes you from physiotherapists and others, who also practise spinal manipulation? So far, I’ve never received a response. Perhaps you can help me understand?

      …acceptance from a wide variety of professionals certainly must carry some credence, no?

      No, not really. Doctors, orthopedists, etc., all have patients for whom they judge they can offer no help. In some instances they suspect there’s nothing really wrong with them, in others they can diagnose an illness but have no treatment they can usefully apply. So they refer them to others who might be able to help, often by compassion and, essentially, administering a placebo.

      You do realize you’re saying the same thing as priests and other clergy here, don’t you? They also get a lot of referrals from various kinds of doctor, they undergo long periods of training and they accrue considerable experience in dealing with the public. I’m sure they too imagine this “certainly must carry some credence” about their various beliefs in a god.

      • Thank you for the response, Frank. Like I said, I like a good discussion without a lot of huffy-puffy emotion.

        Regarding Chiropractic education, I can’t speak for every Chiropractic school as I only attended one. I do get the impression that there is not as much uniformity from school to school as there would ideally be, they are, however, accredited and students are eligible for federal student aid. There are some classes taught that you may not see as having much value. I did have classes that included chiropractic philosophy that you may not see as being of much worth along with a great deal of anatomy, physiology, biochemistry, pathology, differential diagnosis, case studies, biomechanics, extensive radiology, histology, microbiology, etc, etc. along with evidence-based practice courses and, of course a great number of courses on manipulation. I honestly can’t see much in the curriculum, at least at the school I attended, that could be labelled as nonsense by a reasonable person. Some of my professors had previously taught at medical schools and some had not. I’m not sure how one would determine whether an education is sufficient to render one a Dr. I also know while in school I became casually acquainted with a few MD’s, one of them a well-respected Neurologist who made it well-known he found the education we received at that particular school to be impressive to him. Not a definitive study I know but not a bad indication. How would you quantify the quality of education at any institution? I chose to pursue a degree in Chiropractic vs. medicine for a few reasons. Among them being that I simply enjoy this type of work and believe it is a valuable form of treatment that is appreciated by and beneficial to many people.

        Regarding the use of joint manipulation by a DC vs. another professional. I’m not sure there’s an awful lot of difference between what I and any of them do. Some DC’s would argue that we’re trained to be much more specific and precise leading to better outcomes. That could be debated. What I do know is that is what I specialize in. I perform thousands of manipulations a year. I know a few DO’s in my town who manipulate a bit here and there but not with much regularity, according to them. Same with some of the PT’s. I don’t like to beat my own drum but I feel like I’m a good person to do that because I’m damn good at it, through a lot of training and experience. Also, in my area like many others, our PCP’s are overloaded with patient care and very often are eager to refer to specialists, who are also often overloaded. If I specialize in manipulation, why not allow me to do that? A family doctor could set broken bones or evaluate and remove a suspicious spot on the skin but would generally refer those things to an orthopedist or dermatologist as they have greater experience and expertise with them. I had a patient just this week who had been to an orthopedic surgeon and was having some sciatica-like symptoms. The surgeon told him that was a nerve issue and he only worked on bones and that he ought to see a Chiropractor. It was something he’d been dealing with for a few weeks and, miraculously, after a few minor adjustments and some simple at-home care after two days he was nearly 100% improved with respect to pain and function. Anecdote, I know, but is that a bad model for how things sometimes work in healthcare? One more thing. If my manipulations are the same as those performed in the medical community is it valuable to consider cost of care? The cost of the average case I manage is a fraction of the cost for the same type of case managed medically.

      • T

        When you become used to doing something from day to day, you end up seeing it in a different light from other people. Almost certainly a positive light, otherwise you’d stop doing it. Your response to my comments illustrates this perfectly.

        I linked to a previous blog post from Edzard on The Making Of A Homeopath. You don’t seem to have taken in the message. You say “Also, in my area like many others, our PCP’s are overloaded with patient care and very often are eager to refer to specialists, who are also often overloaded.” That seems to be another kind of logical fallacy: argument from workload.

        You go on to equate chiropractic as a speciality with orthopedics and dermatology which seems to me is a kind of insult to orthopedists and dermatologists, whose fields are underpinned by a considerable amount of first-class biomedical research that offers support for genuine progress in bone and skin medicine. Please contrast the situation in orthodox medicine with chiropractic, which at best seems only to provide rather feeble attempts at clinical trials of spinal manipulation therapy (SMT).

        “I perform thousands of manipulations a year… I don’t like to beat my own drum but I feel like I’m a good person to do that because I’m damn good at it, through a lot of training and experience.” See paragraph 1 of this comment. But thank you for addressing my question as to what, specifically, you do as a chiropractor that differentiates chiropractic from other, orthodox medical specialities. It is, as I already suspected, SMT.

        There’s a widespread belief that, at least, chiropractic SMT can provide benefit for lower back pain, yet the study that is discussed in this blog post suggests SMT is no better than sham manipulation for lower back pain. Please read the full post: it’s not cherry picking, the final sentence states the Cochrane review position of SMT for lower back pain. Please read also the 27 comments — only a handful compared with the present thread! — some of which address your contention that some chiros think “we’re trained to be much more specific and precise leading to better outcomes.” You claim to have studied evidence-based medicine during your training: why do you take no account of the (non-) evidence for chiropractic?

        As for chiropractic education, you seem to feel that — apart from “classes that included chiropractic philosophy that you may not see as being of much worth” — your training was more or less the same as is offered in a school of medicine. Personal disclaimer: I’m no kind of medic, myself, but for many years I taught my speciality (microbiology) to medical students so I’m not talking entirely from ignorance of the situation. The problem I have indeed is that “chiropractic philosophy”. Your comment writes this off almost as a trivial component of the training, but I’m far from convinced.

        I googled “Chiropractic colleges in US” and found a website entitled “Top 5 Best-Reviewed Chiropractic Schools in the U.S.”. (This is to explain the basis of the cherry picking that follows.) The first entry for one of the highest rated chiropractic colleges in your country is the National University of Health Sciences near Bloomington, IL. Along with chiropractic, I note that this school offers Naturopathic Medicine, Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine; all pseudo-medical disciplines that have been criticized extensively on this blog. Digging deeper, I read under the heading “Chiropractic Philosophy”, that “At National University, students are broadly educated and extensively trained in evidence based medicine to provide whole health healing to patients. During the course of study at National University, students study in an integrative learning environment alongside other natural health care focused professions. Students are well prepared to become first-contact, primary care physicians, ready to diagnose, treat and manage a wide range of patients and conditions.” I would venture to suggest that this philosophy is far from evidence based: many of those who comment frequently on this blog would probably use more deprecatory language.

        The National University of Health Sciences also provides further insight: “Chiropractic physicians enjoy the following advantages over physical therapists and certified athletic trainers:
        Primary care physician standing in most states.
        Authority to make diagnoses and prepare treatment plans.
        A wider range of modalities to meet patients’ health needs, including: laboratory tests, diagnostic imaging, chiropractic adjustments, nutrition, botanical medicine, acupuncture and more.
        Because most DCs are self-employed, they enjoy more autonomy. They have more control over their income, work hours, who they will see, where they will work, the ability to specialize, with no ceiling on their success.

        I remain far from convinced that a DC (USA) qualification is roughly equivalent to an MD.

        You end your comment with what you acknowledge is an anecdotal account of a patient with sciatica. “…miraculously, after a few minor adjustments and some simple at-home care after two days he was nearly 100% improved with respect to pain and function.” Errm; I think you’ll find sciatica is in most cases a self-limiting condition, so your anecdote is an example of the logical fallacy of post hoc ergo propter hoc. Please try to imagine (I pointed out this sort of thing in my previous comment) how you could turn this interesting anecdote into something meaningful as evidence. Do you not recognize you need at least to have a large group of patients with sciatica, define a specific parameter to measure treatment outcome, randomly assign them to verum and sham (control) chiropractic groups and look prospectively at how much more your treatment offers over sham?

        In the UK, medical treatments are assessed by a body with the acronym NICE. Just for your information, NICE no longer recommends acupuncture, chiropractic or osteopathy for low back pain. Please take time to register the fact that acupuncturists believe sticking needles into ‘meridians’ is just as effective as your SMT: surely they can’t both work by the placebo effect?! They’re based on totally different ‘philosophies’.

        I have gone on far too long, Thank you, T, for the opportunity to conduct a debate on chiropractic in a civilized manner. I have my view, which I’ve attempted to justify in my two comments, and you have yours, ditto. It’s a bugger of a task to change peoples’ minds if they won’t respond to clear evidence, so I shan’t respond further, assuming you have nothing new to offer.

  • I used to be passionate about debunking things like chiropractic medicine and other pseudosciences, but I have since grown tired of doing so. Most people have already made up their minds. I still will try to inform those I care about, but outside of that I have largely moved on. I am thankful that the author of this piece, and many other people in the comments, are still fighting to debunk this kind of garbage. Maybe one day I will get back into it.

    The problem is that most people are stupid. People don’t care about evidence. People think facts and opinions are interchangeable. When you have a planet in which millions of people still believe that a 600 year old Noah built a 750 foot long ark that held two of every kind of animal on it, including enough food and water and space to keep them alive for a year, all the while it rained so much that the planet was covered in water to the point that even Mount Everest was submerged… well, I can’t say I’m surprised people believe in chiropractic medicine. There are too many widespread, crazy beliefs held by human beings. It tells me that we are just not wired in a way that allows us to accurately discern truth from fiction. Until something changes, there will be many people that continue to believe irrational crap. Who knows, maybe in 100000 years (if people are still around), we will be able to put these pseudo-scientific theories to rest. Until then, I fear that the battle is, on the whole, hopeless. It frustrates me; it saddens me; it disappoints me, and it angers me. But it is the reality in which I live, and the situation [at least at the current time] seems hopeless.

  • If something benefits another person, whether that be physically or psychologically, and it is not harmful to them or to others, then people need to get off their high horses and let them do it. Proper chiropractic care can be beneficial to others (even if it’s only satisfying psychologically). It is true that we need to watch out for fraud of any kind when it comes to this kind of stuff. But as has been pointed out previously, there are crooks in every profession. It can definitely be dangerous and harmful both physically and financially when you’re not cautious about it. However, I have also met some really disingenuous doctors who I came to see, did not listen to me, and just gave me the latest drug that came into their office. I have also met massage therapists who only relieved my pain temporarily, as well as chiropractors.

    If someone has the luxury to seek chiropractic care, and they are careful about who they choose, and they’re consulting a team of other health care professionals (such as physicians, specialists, etc.), then I don’t really see the problem with it. Instead of suggesting the eradication of practices such as chiropractic care, why not suggest more useful and practical recommendations like adjusting curriculums, changing requirements for licensure, and so forth? “If you want to go quickly, go alone. If you want to go far, go together.” I am just suggesting that collaboration seems to be better in most cases of health care. A well-rounded team of professionals is definitely much better. We all can’t do everything, and this applies whether you are a chiropractor or doctor.

    It’s sad that I’m reading through these comments and seeing lots of people coming back to the page over and over again to reply to every single comment just to make themselves feel better lol. Please, go out there and engage in better scholarly conversations by being more open minded.

    • “engage in better scholarly conversations by being more open minded” BUT BE CAREFUL: YOUR BRAINS MIGHT FALL OUT!

    • Sigh said:

      If something benefits another person, whether that be physically or psychologically, and it is not harmful to them or to others, then people need to get off their high horses and let them do it.

      It’s not as simple as that, of course, but how would you determine whether something was beneficial and how would you determine if it was harmful? And how would you weed out the fraudsters?

  • @ Sigh on Wednesday 28 December 2016 at 09:22

    So much relativist nonsense in one post, so from the start……….

    “If something benefits another person, whether that be physically or psychologically, and it is not harmful to them or to others,”

    As Alan Henness asks above, who or what determines harm or benefit to both the person and others? Is it you, the person, their friends or family, the witch who lives down the road, a committee of chiropractors (lol), or someone else? Please tell us, who?

    “then people need to get off their high horses and let them do it.”

    A high horse or a concern the person will receive a treatment which will actually benefit them. Do you believe a placebo is fine for someone with bowel cancer, for instance?

    “Proper chiropractic”?

    Not even chiropractors agree with a common modality. As you are most likely a chiro who has written this tripe, perhaps you could tell us what it is?

    “care can be beneficial to others (even if it’s only satisfying psychologically).”

    As above, is a placebo good enough, as long as the person “feels” better, no matter how soon they might die afterwards?

    “It is true that we need to watch out for fraud of any kind when it comes to this kind of stuff.”

    Who determines fraud, both in the type and provision of treatment; the person, the treater, of whom?

    “But as has been pointed out previously, there are crooks in every profession.”

    There is a complete difference between a crook practising a profession which has a foundation in research, and one who peddles nonsense. Chiropractic comes to mind here for the latter.

    “It can definitely be dangerous and harmful both physically and financially when you’re not cautious about it.”

    Cautious about what and how does one exercise this? What qualifications does one need to be able to exercise adequate caution? Please, I’d love to know?

    “However, I have also met some really disingenuous doctors who I came to see, did not listen to me, and just gave me the latest drug that came into their office. I have also met massage therapists who only relieved my pain temporarily, as well as chiropractors.”

    Please write this in English so I may respond?

    “If someone has the luxury to seek chiropractic care, and they are careful about who they choose, and they’re consulting a team of other health care professionals (such as physicians, specialists, etc.), then I don’t really see the problem with it.”

    No, you wouldn’t given the tripe you’ve written so far. I assume you are American as you refer to healthcare as a “luxury”, rather than a basic human right. Again, how is one “careful” about their “choice”? How does one know whether a chiro is consulting real doctors and, importantly, taking their advice? Generally, this won’t happen because most real medicos know chiro for what it is; alt-med nonsense.

    “Instead of suggesting the eradication of practices such as chiropractic care, why not suggest more useful and practical recommendations like adjusting curriculums, changing requirements for licensure, and so forth?”

    Because these measures do not change what chiro is and isn’t.

    ““If you want to go quickly, go alone. If you want to go far, go together.””

    From where did you drag this little platitude? I do know but the prof might ban me if I use a crass term for the lower rear abdominal area.

    “I am just suggesting that collaboration seems to be better in most cases of health care. A well-rounded team of professionals is definitely much better. We all can’t do everything, and this applies whether you are a chiropractor or doctor.”

    “We”? Hmm, I suspect I am correct, you are a chiro pretending not to be. Chiros have done this here before; pretended to be Joe Public and offered up such complete tripe.

    “It’s sad that I’m reading through these comments and seeing lots of people coming back to the page over and over again to reply to every single comment just to make themselves feel better lol. Please, go out there and engage in better scholarly conversations by being more open minded.”

    If you were the least bit “scholarly”, you wouldn’t have written such nonsense. However, as you are a chiro, you are definitely not.

  • As with most debates, it is near dam impossible to convince either party that they are indeed right, or wrong.

    The whole reasoning behind a personal belief is that as an individual your perception is true, and that’s that.

    The best research anyone can do is their own … Anyone can Google or buy a book to research a subject and find compelling evidence, but how reliable is it?

    For those who belive its nothing more than a con, become a chiropractor. FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF!

    For those already practising and wanting to prove the benefits, approach existing clients and ask if they’d be happy to take part in live research, maybe offer a discount?

    There is no doubt that there are con-artists at work, but is that any surprise? Really?

    At the end of it all, if your not willing to put your OWN time and money into something you believe in, to arrive at a decision with your OWN findings then there is really no point in even entering the race.

    • The whole reasoning behind a personal belief is that as an individual your perception is true, and that’s that.

      No, that’s not that. Like you say, “Anyone can Google or buy a book to research a subject…” If you google words such as ‘self-deception’ and ‘delusion’ your research will swiftly reveal that humans are particularly vulnerable to such problems. Eye-witness testimony is notoriously unreliable (ask any halfway decent conjuror).

      What we need in these circumstances is a tool to help us avoid fooling ourselves with our ‘individual perceptions’. Cue (fanfare) science, which is not (as some imagine) a philosophy but a tool to help us establish the objective truth of our subjective perceptions. Science has worked exceptionally well for millennia, by leading people forward, slow step by slow step, to a fuller appreciation of objective reality. Chiropractic, like all forms of snakeoil, is a subjective delusion that pretends to surround itself with scientific trappings. But its extraordinary claims do not stand up to robust scientific scrutiny.

  • I’ve never been able to make it through a football or lacrosse season at peak performance without chiropractic care.

  • @Bernard

    How many seasons have you gone with and without chiropractic care? Were they randomly chosen to test your (implied) assertion that chiropractic does something special for you? Have you ever tried anything else for a season: homeopathy? massage? reiki? crystal therapy? How did they do? They all claim to ‘help’ with musculoskeletal problems and they all have positive testimonials from individuals. You see, subjective experiences can fool us into believing something is true that isn’t really true at all. Think of how many people can’t get through a day without reading their horoscopes.

    • I tried chiropractic care for uncomplicated lower back pain about ten years ago. It has never taken so long for me to get better as that time. the only thing that definitely improved were his finances, at my cost.
      I realised after several weeks that the chiropractor had enticed me into ongoing “maintenance therapy that did not seem to be helping any so I stopped. Since then I have had several bouts of LBP but never sought chiropractic care. I have cut them all short by using well chosen pain killers and simply made sure not to be inactive. Get out there and walk, mow the lawn or whatever, just don’t succumb to the bed when it sets in.
      With chiropractic logic, this experience of mine should prove that NOT being adjusted is better for acute LBP, right?

  • Should you not wish to read the background of what preceded my paralysis, scroll down down to “VERY IMPORTANT.”

    With all of the hundreds of entries on this blog, if just one person reads this, who may find help from it, it will be worth my effort. I began seeing a chiropractor over 20 years ago, when I was suffering from terrible and ongoing tension headaches.
    Within one month, these headaches were reduced to a manageable level, then nearly disappeared a few years later with CPAP treatment, due to OSA. At the time, that particular chiropractor only used an activator to adjust my spine. He never used any manual cracking or harsh moves. However, he did push ongoing visits, which I felt were unnecessary and if I went to him every 18 months or so, as needed, his treatment usually worked for me, regardless of his criticism of not seeing me much more often. He never took my insurance, which I didn’t like, but going to him on occasion, it wasn’t an issue.

    Then, in 2012, I had an ankle injury, which in turn, lead to sciatica. I decided to find a local chiropractor who was in network with my insurance. I went to him for about three years, as needed, and he did help my pain quite a bit.

    HOWEVER, this chiropractor would only use manual manipulation on me and when I began having more headaches and neck spasms (much bed rest due to surgeries), he began cracking my neck. However, I never left his office feeling worse and usually a bit better. But, the only thing that took away the neck spasm was acupuncture. It took several visits, but did work.

    VERY IMPORTANT: I finally had surgery for a torn posterior tibial tendon, in my left ankle, in May 2014, in which the injury happened exactly two years prior. The treatment initially was to wear a large stabilizing boot, which in turn caused sciatic pain, which in turn lead me to the last chiropractor, as stated above.

    Two days after surgery, I began having severe breathing issues, especially when lying down on my back or right side. Bed rest was imperative due to the ankle surgery. Five days post op, I was still suffering and scared enough to go to the ER, fearing I had a blood clot. While it was determined I did not have a blood clot, they found I was suffering from atelectasis, which is anesthesia induced pneumonia. I was given an antibiotic to clear the lung. Unfortunately, my breathing did not improve much at all. I had additional tests and it was determined near the end of June 2014, that I had a paralyzed diaphragm, on my left side. Hence, the issue of not being able to lie down on my right side, because I was putting pressure on the right lung, which was not being squeezed (as much) as my left lung, with the diaphragm pushing into it, nearly up to my left shoulder! I was seeing a pulmonologist by then, who gave me very little hope. The best he could offer was to tie down (plicate) the left side of my diaphragm, taking the pressure off my left lung. This didn’t sound like a true “fix” of the situation, but just a band aid, to get by. To me, breathing needs more than a band aid!

    As miserable as I was, while healing with my torn tendon and lack of breathing capabilities, I was desperate for a solution, which led me to an extensive search on the Internet. I finally found Dr. Matthew Kaufman in Shrewsbury Township, NJ. SEE: http://www.AdvancedReconstruction.com. If you have a paralyzed diaphragm, you need to check this out!! I only mention his name, because he is the ONLY DOCTOR IN THE WORLD PERFORM PHRENIC NERVE GRAFT SURGERY, at thus time!

    In Nov. 2014, I spoke to Dr. Kaufman, who recommended more time for healing and some PT to improve my breathing.
    While there was a very small improvement, additional tests showed that I had a damaged or pinched phrenic nerve on the left side of my neck, causing the diaphragm to barely move. It was later found out, that my right phrenic nerve was also damaged, but not to the same extent. Our phrenic nerves stem from our C 3-4-5 disks on our spike and control our diaphragm to move, which is our largest muscle to help us breathe properly. By now, you may see where this is going.

    In September 2015, I had a nerve graft on my left phrenic nerve and a pacemaker placed on the left side of my diaphragm to help it move and to also assist in healing the phrenic nerve. As the diaphragm moves, the phrenic nerve is aroused and in turn heals faster, so in turn, it will help the diaphragm begin to move better more quickly, as intended.
    As soon, as the nerve graft was completed and before the pacemaker implanted, the diaphragm began moving enough, to indicate a successful, though very long healing process.While inconclusive, deductive reasoning led to the most likely scenario that the phrenic nerves were initially damaged by the chiropractic neck adjustments, but not apparent until I underwent anesthesia from the tendon transfer surgery in my ankle. The theory is that my metabolism was slowed down to the point that the phrenic nerve began to not conduct any synapses to move my diaphragm. I honestly cannot think of any other factors which would have led to the educated conclusion. In short, the diaphragm stopped moving due to a two step process; neck cracking, then anthesia overdose.

    With this in mind, I have to say that the NECK CRACKING was the initial CAUSE of my BREATHING PROBLEM. Ironically, I had brought up the risks of neck cracking to my chiropractor one month before my ankle surgery and he said his malpractice insurance was very low, because any risks were much less than 1 percent. Lucky me! I ended up in that so called less than 1 percent. I certainly did not win any lottery!! After bringing up the issue with my chiropractor of possibly having a pinched nerve (instead of a damaged one) his recommendation was for additional neck manipulation with an expert chiropractor in San Jose, Ca, whose father was a guru chiropractor based in Colorado. Against my better judgment, I did not go that route, which could have caused even more damage! Once in surgery, my surgeon determined that nothing was pinched, but, I had scar tissue from a “spinal injury” which could have not been from anything else, outside of the chiropractic adjustments. I did go back to the chiropractor once or twice post op, for low back adjustments, but the neck is off limits to any cracking! Only the little activator is allowed by me. My surgeon did feel these treatments were okay to use, but obviously NO MANUAL NECK ADJUSTMENTS!

    If you do have your neck adjusted manually, this is a risk you take! I learned the hard way. While, my breathing is improved and I am 19 months post op, the time for the phrenic nerve graft surgery to see its greatest benefit is at 33 months post op. My last nerve conduction study showed that my left phrenic nerve was working at 25 percent to capacity, instead of the 10 percent capacity ore op and that the right side was at 50 percent to working capacity, as opposed to 25 percent pre op. These results were at 12 months post op.

    In the meanwhile, I’m on SSDI and in a pulmonary rehab program, which has touched on diaphragm strengthening enough to help me get stronger and taught me to breath better using diaphragmatic and pursed lipped breathing techniques along with exercise, to strengthen other muscles to compensate for the weakened and healing phrenic nerve/diaphragm process.

    Please feel free to respond or ask any questions, in which you feel I may have left out some detail or something you may not understand in my statements, Going to pulmonary rehab has taught me the importance of exercise and oxygen to lower my BP, which as been elevated ever since the injury, as my heart works harder to compensate for the labored breathing.

    I pray that this entry helps someone who has this same issue as myself. It is rare, but very important to the right person!

  • I never thought of the fact that We take too many x-rays.
    That’s a good point.
    Anyway, I actually have another guest post idea that would be perfect for your site.
    It’s called: “chiropractor after car accident settlement”
    I could have it sent to you this week.
    Either way, thanks again for your Comment!
    Best

    • happy to have a look at it but cannot promise to post it. please send it to me by email, not as a comment.

      • 10 years ago i paid for 12 visits before my insurance kicked in. the following 29 visits were great. i cant crack my neck. or my thorax. the way he pulled my neck out and twisted it.. i have never experience that kind of crack. in HS at 17 i marched up 5th avenue with perfect posture. i was 6 foot 1 173. i could stand up straight for 3 hours and we won the columbus day parade with me leading the trombones and sax as the line center of the 3rd line. Now i cant look at the ceiling and cant hold my head up.i want to be able to sgta

  • In my opinion, Dr. Ernst seems to have the same insecurities he implies chiropractors have. Look at all of those titles after his name! Aside from MD, and PhD, I doubt one person in a million on the street would recognize FMedSci, FSB, FRCP, FRCPEd. But, I guess more medals on your chest makes you a better soldier. It has something to do with glitter. Didn’t Dorothy sprinkle glitter on her ruby shoes? Next time, I would suggest just typing the entire alphabet after his name. At least the average Joe can relate to that.

    I have been a chiropractor since 1981. I won’t get into my professional history, but what I have read here is, to say the least, eye opening–both from chiropractic supporters and detractors. Everyone seems to be missing the biggest point: Just about all healthcare, in any form, is elective. No one has to be treated for anything–unless they pose a danger to society. Healthcare is a business. What health care providers do is only as important as it is to one individual at a time. If someone wants surgery, then they should go to the best surgeon. If someone wants chiropractic, then go to the best chiropractor. Agreed, the notion of ‘best’ is largely subjective. The important thing is for the provider to be honest about his/her abilities and training. The consumer needs to know what they’re buying. Healthcare providers are a commodity just like pork bellies and orange juice. Like it or not, even the most skilled surgeon, chiropractor, or dentist, is no more and no less important than a skilled barber, butcher, plumber, or caterer. Once doctors, of any discipline, drop their self importance, i.e., check their egos at the door, we can have a civil conversation. Truth is, a reliable garbage collector is more important to me than most doctors.

    • Like it or not, even the most skilled surgeon, chiropractor, or dentist, is no more and no less important than a skilled barber, butcher, plumber, or caterer.

      There is a slight difference here. Surgeons save lives, chiropractors take lives.

      we can have a civil conversation

      A conversation with a quack remains a conversation with a quack, regardless of its level of civility.

    • Phil Defotis said:

      I have been a chiropractor since 1981.

      After your opening paragraph, why does this not surprise me?

      Just about all healthcare, in any form, is elective. … The important thing is for the provider to be honest about his/her abilities and training. The consumer needs to know what they’re buying.

      As a chiropractor, presumably you don’t rate high quality evidence for any treatment as an important factor that a potential consumer should take into account?

      Once doctors, of any discipline, drop their self importance, i.e., check their egos at the door, we can have a civil conversation. Truth is, a reliable garbage collector is more important to me than most doctors./blockquote>ROFL!

    • @Phil Defotis on Tuesday 28 March 2017 at 13:45

      Phil, you would have to be a chiro to write such crap and expect anyone to take it or you seriously.

      “In my opinion, Dr. Ernst seems to have the same insecurities he implies chiropractors have. Look at all of those titles after his name! Aside from MD, and PhD, I doubt one person in a million on the street would recognize FMedSci, FSB, FRCP, FRCPEd. But, I guess more medals on your chest makes you a better soldier. It has something to do with glitter. Didn’t Dorothy sprinkle glitter on her ruby shoes? Next time, I would suggest just typing the entire alphabet after his name. At least the average Joe can relate to that.”

      Or one might conclude the prof spent a lot of time and effort education himself. Some, on the other hand, make unwarranted and pointless attacks based on ignorance.

      “I have been a chiropractor since 1981.”

      A prolonged period of ignorance, as well as duplicity and thievery.

      “I won’t get into my professional history,”

      No, I’m sure you won’t because it would open you and your practises up to scrutiny and that would be embarrassing.

      “Everyone seems to be missing the biggest point: Just about all healthcare, in any form, is elective. No one has to be treated for anything–unless they pose a danger to society.”

      Everything, including all forms of cancer, heart disease, stroke, kidney disease, asthma, tuberculosis, malaria, tetanus, polio, syphilis, glaucoma, worms, ulcers, and ten of thousands of others, is elective?

      “Healthcare is a business.”

      Most others, I’m sure, would describe it as a profession or vocation, but I understand chiro is not about healthcare, rather is all about making money from the gullible.

      “What health care providers do is only as important as it is to one individual at a time.”

      It probably is to those for whom their only thoughts are for themselves.

      “If someone wants surgery, then they should go to the best surgeon.”

      Surgeons must meet professional standards and are subject to scrutiny by their peers.

      “If someone wants chiropractic, then go to the best chiropractor.”

      The first question is; why would anyone want to go to a chiropractor? The second is; how does one discern different degrees of bogus?

      “Like it or not, even the most skilled surgeon, chiropractor, or dentist, is no more and no less important than a skilled barber, butcher, plumber, or caterer. Once doctors, of any discipline, drop their self importance, i.e., check their egos at the door, we can have a civil conversation.”

      This is where chiro “logic” excels in reverse.

      “Truth is, a reliable garbage collector is more important to me than most doctors.”

      I hope you remember that when you or a loved one get a serious disease such as cancer. Although, you could treat them them because you are a “good” chiro?

      I found some of your handiwork, very amusing; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeYrcFZj7S4

  • I am really bored stiff now with what I have read of the homeopathic skeptics views on this website. An incisive analysis such as the one on chiro above would be more interesting and challenging to respond to.

    Can anyone recommend an equally incisive critique of homeopathy on this website?

      • Thank you Edzard.

        I was hoping for a first *choice* article and comments on this website but if those are your top 3 choices then it should provide the ‘complete’ skeptic view.

        Wendell Holmes’ critique is adored by homeopathy skeptics so if his paper can be rebutted then that will be job done. Should be fun.

        • I DID NOT SAY THESE ARE MY 3 TOP CHOICES – I said: try these!

          • That is true, do you have a top choice of a homeopathy critique? Possibly one of your books: Trick or Treat, or, Homeopathy – The Undiluted Facts?

            I don’t want to read a lot of books by homeopathy critics and use up valuable time to debunk them, and then have someone coming along with another one and another one, like the comments by some people on this site. No matter how many times they are corrected, they come back for another correction lesson.

            Not sure why Frank is getting into a twist but then again emotional ranting is also commonplace here here and here.

          • “… do you have a top choice of a homeopathy critique?”
            no

          • @Greg on Wednesday 29 March 2017 at 13:09

            “I don’t want to read a lot of books by homeopathy critics and use up valuable time to debunk them, and then have someone coming along with another one and another one, like the comments by some people on this site.”

            Good luck, but you’ll need more than that; more likely to overthrow the laws of physics.

            “No matter how many times they are corrected, they come back for another correction lesson.”

            Name the first time you were successful?

            “Not sure why Frank is getting into a twist but then again emotional ranting is also commonplace here here and here.”

            You wouldn’t. I’m becoming increasingly sick, and less tolerant, of fools like you who use the advances of science to live a comfortable and reasonably disease free life with many options, but think you know better when it comes to nonsensical crap like homeopathy.

        • I notice that this thread is already almost one thousand comments long. I know I am extending an off-topic deflection but since dear Greg is being pampered with reading material, (which will perhaps have the same result as throwing water on a goose?) here is one for him that just came out: https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-three-phantoms-of-homeopathy/

    • @Greg on Wednesday 29 March 2017 at 09:01

      “I am really bored stiff now with what I have read of the homeopathic skeptics views on this website. An incisive analysis such as the one on chiro above would be more interesting and challenging to respond to.

      Can anyone recommend an equally incisive critique of homeopathy on this website?”

      Bored stiff? As I tell my seven year old friend, bored people are boring people in their own way. In your case, perhaps you should get off your lazy arse and find it for yourself, rather than asking to be spoonfed. Why the good prof acquiesced to your puerile request is beyond me. He is far more accommodating of wilful fools than me.

  • Actually, I have another guest post idea that would be perfect for your site.
    It’s called: “Benefits of Infant Chiropractic Care Options”
    I could have it sent to you this week.
    Either way, thanks again for your insights!
    Most Excellent,

  • @Elizabeth Nall on Monday 17 April 2017 at 14:15

    “It’s called: “Benefits of Infant Chiropractic Care Options””

    I’m looking forward to this, because the link is to this;
    http://www.jacksonvillechiropractic.com/2017/01/19/people-suffering-pain-never-heard-chiropractic-care-pain-treatment-2/

    The chiro is a subluxationist and an acupuncturist, and a very poor speaker with little logic;
    http://www.jacksonvillechiropractic.com/videos/

  • Chiropractic “treatment” should at least require physician physical clearance to avoid exacerbating, complicating, accelerating the evolution or covering up symptoms of an underlying evolving condition.

    • Chiropractors are physicians by law because they are trained and pass boards on diagnosis just as medical physicians. If you look it up DC’s have just as many hours in the classroom as MD. Also MD’s have no training in manual manipulation so frankly screening a patient is out of there scope/ expertise.

      • Chiropractors are physicians by law […]

        That goes against what I think I know. They are – and only here and there – allowed to carry the title of Doctor, but that is a very different beast from being a physician.
        You have any evidence/proof of your claim?

      • @RJ

        Chiros are not permitted to call themselves physicians in the UK: it would be a breach of the Medical Act 1983.

        See also: Defining what a “physician” is

        But chiros as doctors? Seriously? There’s a good article that I can’t find at the moment that compares the training of chiros versus medical doctors. Suffice to say, chiros don’t come out at all well.

      • “If you look it up DC’s have just as many hours in the classroom as MD.”

        Please try not to confuse time spent studying something with time well spent. People have devoted amazing numbers of hours to the study of all sorts of nonsense. That doesn’t, by some form of magic, convert nonsense to sense.

        “Also MD’s have no training in manual manipulation so frankly screening a patient is out of there [sic] scope/ expertise.”

        They also have no training in scientology, astrology, ufology and other ‘-ologies’ that bear no relation to truth and reality. Isn’t that a good thing? Do you really want to see doctors’ surgeries full of e-meters so they can “see their patients’ thoughts”?!

  • What we have here is a Doc. who failed out of practice. It is common to see someone turn on there profession if they are simply inadequate at there job compared to there competition. There is a reason Chiropractic has been and is widely popular for over 100 years. All of these negative annotations are come from opinion or tall tale/ rumors. All of the references listed are non official / openly biased websites and the little “research” listed falls on the bottom of the evidence pyramid. Making claims such as stroke caused by manipulation just goes to show how illegitimate this whole article is.
    Claims everyone was cheating in school, claims Medical Doctors education is much greater, my guess is this guy cheated through school and try’s to make himself feel better by assuming everyone did the same. Might explain why he was so inadequate in the field. Statistics show that DC’s have similar schooling hours to MD’s some schools more and some have less.

    • There is a reason Chiropractic has been and is widely popular for over 100 years

      Islam has been and is widely popular for far longer.
      Christianity has been and is widely popular for far longer.
      Hinduism has been and is widely popular for far longer.
      Buddhism has been and is widely popular for far longer.
      Yet, they all make claims which are mutually exclusive and just plain wrong.
      I submit the popularity claim is not a good reason to think chiropractic has any value.

    • “…..claims Medical Doctors education is much greater,….” ?

      It is – period. What rock are you living under?

    • @RJ on Thursday 04 May 2017 at 03:08

      Typical chiro; too stupid even to be able to spell correctly. Another dunderhead contributor from Witchcraft Central. It reminds me of another chiro from Sydney who pretends to be rational but writes crap of an equal nature.

  • There is a reason Chiropractic has been and is widely popular for over 100 years

    Islam has been and is widely popular for far longer.
    Christianity has been and is widely popular for far longer.
    Hinduism has been and is widely popular for far longer.
    Buddhism has been and is widely popular for far longer.
    Yet, they all make claims which are mutually exclusive and just plain wrong.
    I submit the popularity claim is not valid.

  • Hey guys. I’m just going to put this out there:

    I was a licensed massage therapist but I let my license go last year because I contracted narcolepsy (with cataplexy) and I just can’t do that anymore… I can’t do a lot of things anymore…

    I ran in to a lot of massage quacks just like chiro-quacks practicing chiro-quatics (lol… I couldn’t help it… feel free to use my coin… ha) described on this website. The crystal healers, and “I’m not toching you, I’m not touching you” people… lol… (energy healers). I remember this thing they used to put in a tub of water and you put your feet in it and they put a little bit of salt in the tub and turn the machine on. It made all kinds of nasty mess in the water. Disgusting looking stuff. It was and is a scam. You can get the same “massive toxin extraction evidence” when using an organic banana instead of human feet attached to a human body. (It is a reaction of the salt water, metal, and electricity the apparatus puts in to the water. It just needs ANYTHING that is cellular matter to make the trick work.)

    BUT… I have been around this one lady… the “Yoda of Massage” as I like to call her… I took reflexology courses (continuing education) from her and I can say I was FULLY convinced before going in that this was quackery on a cracker. When we were done… I have to say… it’s very much a valid therapy. Now will it live up to outlandish claims of nonsense? No. But in most ways it actually does work. Fundamentally, it is valid. She also believes in “quantum touch”. I don’t. I still don’t… not really. BUT one day I asked all of my friends for prayers in regard to the healing of the narcolepsy and cataplexy. (You get to a point with things in life where you will take help from any and everyone and thing that you can because you may as well before you put that gun in your mouth and pull the trigger right? I mean, I’m not so far above asking for help that I would put suicide in front of a simple request of any type.) A few hours later I got REALLY warm… and I felt someone rubbing me. Not radically like being on a table in person but I could feel the hands… and they were very warm. I am NOT saying that is proof. I still don’t think it’s something anyone should pay for. Otherwise you could just sell quantum touch online and be like “I’m sending it now” as you cash their PayPal funds.

    But I do believe that we as humans know very little about the things around us. Even with as much as we do know. String theory… bonds… like how they can spin certain atoms in Texas and half a second later the other half of the pair spin in the same direction and to the same degree ans the atoms in New York. A few hundred years ago Tesla would have been burnt at the stake. They would have locked you away or killed you for inventing the radio. Did you guys know that the “masters” (painters), the ultra realists… the ones that painted what are considered by and large the BEST examples of PERFECTION in the realm of realism… they TRACED?? Look it up… they used mirrors. That’s not to say that they didn’t paint very well but they also cheated in a lot of ways. The catholic church was rounding up mirrors and anyone using mirrors at the time… and breaking both. I’m getting a bit off topic now and need to bring things back around. lol…

    What I’m saying is that you have all kinds of bad people, crazy people, good people, and every type of everything else. Especially greedy people. I was practicing massage therapy at a gym. There was a nut of a therapist that had worked there before who set up shop across the street in a building. She was strange. (A LOT of massage therapists are VERY strange…) A few clients went to her from me because they liked her line of BS. I have always been exceedingly honest. Even to my own determinant. I remember one lady who was coming in every week for three weeks in a row. She was massively overweight. On the second visit I was trying to impress on her that it was a weight issue and not anything else. That until she lost weight things were not going to feel better. I advised that she not come so often. Maybe every two weeks at that most. The weight loss was far more important. The third visit she started saying things like how massage should last longer, etc. and that she was doing “her part” (by that she meant she was slowly walking a half a mile a day – she could have been doing MUCH more… she just wanted to be coddled and feel good about not doing anything.). I showed her the mechanics behind how her weight bearing points were inflicting the injuries she had reoccurring every two or three days after being rubbed and how actually dieting and working out is supposed to go down. I told her the truth, like everyone who I talk to. She never came back. When the gym manager was asking me about her I told her the truth as well. She said I should have just told her what she wanted to hear. Just BS and take the money. I told the manager she could find another therapist if that was actually some kind of order (she technically didn’t manage me… I was my own department and I only answered to the owner who could have cared less he was filthy rich but still took 50 percent of my gross pay. lol… that’s how they stay rich ;p).

    Honesty is a rare quality these days. It costs us as professionals. Money. It costs us money. Actually believing in quackery though… that’s an interesting subject. I believe that we are only responsible for what we know. What we are convicted of in our hearts, minds, etc. How could we not be? BUT we are also to do no harm as being involved in ANY extension of the medical field. (I am/was anything BUT a doctor… believe me, I am NOT trying to put myself in the ranks of MD’s and DO’s… you guys are ACES in my book even when I meet HORRIBLE ones… I respect what it took to get there… I just simply mean as a taker of the Hippocratic Oath is all…) GREED i believe is the BIGGEST problem in the world. There are ALL KINDS of forms of greed. Lust is a form of greed. Jealousy, envy… MOST evil stems from a form of greed in the way I see things to be.

    ALL OF THAT BEING SAID (if you can’t tell I’m having fun typing this, lol) it is sad when the weak are prayed upon. Like the grandmother referenced in the main article as being coerced in to buying ten thousand dollars worth of vitamins… to capitalize on her chronic pain and suffering… I mean come on, that chiropractor had to have known he was scamming that poor lady… but EVEN IF HE DIDN”T he was doing harm to her in a way. If he GAVE the vitamins away it would have been different… see? Greed.

    The fruit of the evil tree is vast and abundant. There is truth in fiction and many times fiction in truth. The world is seldom black and white but rather mainly shades of grey.

    Don’t be “that guy”.

    I like that this book was made. It’s not like he’s disrespecting our outing the profession. He’s just giving everyone a heads up as to what is behind the curtain so to speak. The chicanery involved. The charlatans and charades. Having read just what is on this main page I know what to expect as far as some of the possible wallet hammering curve balls that may be thrown at me tomorrow when I go to my FIRST chiropractic appointment. I don’t even have anything wrong with me. I’ve never been and figured I would check it out. If they want to take 8-11 X-Rays then I have a good idea of where things are headed. lol. He even said there were some things chiropractors actually make a difference with. My best friend had a bad work injury but not a good job. Insurance wasn’t going to cover anything and he’s manual labor. His family depends on him to make it to that job and work all day. It was the weekend. The ER told him he had all this crazy stuff he needed. Including surgery. He went to a chiropractor that weekend. He popped his spine back in to place and he could walk and almost stand all the way up again. Half way through the next week he was fully recovered. They COULD have done that at the ER as well… but they didn’t… they probably knew, too… but they got GREEDY! There are not many honest people left in the world when it comes to wealth. That chiropractor could have lied to my friend as well. But thanks to his honesty my friend, his wife, and little girl, got to keep their modest house, car, and livelihood. They got to continue being honest people because of that chiropractor’s honesty.

    And if anyone would like to drag what I’ve said through a ringer like this is a Reddit forum, or say that a few typos or grammar errors mean I’m an idiot… I have a thumb and forefinger harmonics exam waiting for you… FOR FREE.

    ROFL. Thanks to anyone who read all of that. You’re the best. :))

  • An amazing post, thank you very much for your information that helps us.
    Someone told me that here you can find the best prices for chiropractors, there’s a huge selection here, here’s the link:https : //www. nearme. life/
    Has anyone tried?

    That would be the equivalent of looking in a phone directory for the cheapest crook or the gentlest thief. Why would anyone do such a thing?

  • I went to an idiot chiro back in 2006, he adjusted me for a year 3 times per week causing huge ligament laxity in my body a snapping hip joint, i am today still getting treated with prolotherapy and PRP thank the lord i found those, i filled a complain against him in 2011 and he got away clean lying and he was defended by the board of chiropractors. I don’t understand why so many clinics are open and seems there is one every corner of the street for such a dangerous profession.

  • This is ridiculous. Chiropractic care helped me when no medical doctor could – and I went to many. My symptoms were reduced after the first visit, and totally disappeared after the 2nd. If you don’t like or have never tried chiropractic care, that is your choice. But to devote a page saying it is pointless, and even worse, to suggest that patients that go to chiropractors tend to believe in weird things like a bruised Karma – how insulting. You people do not know what you are talking about.

  • Chiropractic has helped many people. You have to find the right chiropractor for you. They definitely help with things like back pain, headaches, sports injury and in helping people to stay flexible, tall and moving freely. There are some chiropractors out there who do dodgy things, but in what profession does that not happen? The new wave of chiropractors graduating now are different to the old guard of chiropractors, and probably a little less ideological.
    For things like back pain, sports and running, check out this post: http://www.thebackclinic.net.au/simple-tips-to-avoid-lower-back-pain-when-running1.html. For benefits across a range of sports check out this: http://www.chirolife.com.au/introduction-sports-injury-chiropractic/.

    • @Hudson on Thursday 06 July 2017 at 13:35

      This dishonest tripe is from a seller of websites and services to chiros;

      https://www.premierpractice.com.au/
      “My team and I work with chiropractors and healthcare professionals to craft conversion optimised, stunning websites and chiropractic marketing strategies.
      If you’re looking for new patients and wanting to build the practice of your dreams, you’ll need the Premier Practice touch. Have a look at our services – I think you’ll like them.”

      http://www.premierpractice.com.au/chiropractic-websites/
      “You want to grow your practice. You want to attract local patients who spend money in your clinic. To achieve both these goals you need the right website that will work hard for you.”

      The links provided are, essentially, advertising his scummy services to the chiros who come here.

      The second link (chirolife) contains these gems;

      “We do know that spinal function does affect brain function. There’s now solid evidence that adjusting the spine changes brain function. This is the fourth time that the effect of adjusting the spine has on the brain has been studied. This last time it was studied and confirmed by an independent medical researcher.” said Dr. Heidi Haavik, one of the researchers who conducted the study.
      Of note is the region of the brain that seems to be impacted by the adjustments. Dr Haavik comments:

      “The latest study suggests that the changes that we do see in the brain when we adjust the spine do occur in the prefrontal cortex. That part of the brain is like the conductor in the brain.”

      And, as we all know, Haavik is a dyed-in-the-wool subluxationist. So much for “The new wave of chiropractors graduating now are different to the old guard of chiropractors, and probably a little less ideological.”

      The whole post is an utterable piece of rubbish by a con artist, oops, marketing person.

  • There can be no “new wave” of ‘Chiropractic’ since chiropractic is a religious dogma based entirely in the world of pseudoscience and the cult of personality. The ‘new wave’ is simply DCs deciding to adhere to advances in science-based physical therapy and physical medicine.

    In regard a ‘new wave’ and simply treating with-in evidence & science based parameters (something every DPT and ATC and trainer already do…) the DC degree is and has always been superfluous and in fact continues to damage real scientific advances in non-surgical MSK care.
    The DC education continues to be repleat in non-sense and unsupported and disproven concepts and most chiropractors absolutely perpetuate the subluxation nonsense they are taught, whether overtly or covertly….”realignment” and tactile magic-palpation-techniques make up the vast majority of practices worldwide. And less-than-observant, gullible patients misinterpreting temporal correlation-for-causation and natural attrition making up the vast majority of patients.

  • Lol. For every point on here, the same could be said of alopathic medicine and worse. Here’s a couple freebies – prescription medication is the fourth leading cause of death in the US annually. Statistically, 1 in every 12 physicians is paid bonuses to prescribe opioids. Just getting started. There are some shitty chiros that have no business being in the industry. But the current conventional medical system is total dogshit, people aren’t getting helped, they’re by and large having drugs thrown at them like experiment rats. That said, there are chiros effecting real and amazing results and system/disease reversal. Stuff that can’t possibly be placebo. So, instead of shitting on the profession, why not encourge research and regulation into case studies and practices showing consistant results like that. They’re out there, it’s amazing. An out of line, elitist MD is no better than an overpromising chiro. At least the latter isn’t putting people at risk of being lart of that fourth leading cause of death. This article was so heavy handed it was laughable though not without some good points. Dollars need invested towards chiro because the best are changing peoples lives. Most of you MDs hate your lives, hate your wives, and don’t do shit.

  • @Ben on Tuesday 22 August 2017 at 15:19

    “That said, there are chiros effecting real and amazing results and system/disease reversal.”

    When you have a case of a chiro having any effect whatsoever on any cancer, please post.
    BTW, chiros only have information about physiology because of medicine, not from any of the faffing about with backs pretending to do something.

  • Cracking bones harmful !!! Not at all, it is not harmful. Various research shows it does not cause arthritis or any other problem.

    • Cracking bones harmful !!! Not at all, it is not harmful. Various research shows it does not cause arthritis or any other problem.

      If death were the only problem, you would have a point of sorts. After all, dead patients don’t tend to complain about problems. Unfortunately, as the evidence shows, chiropractic most definitely causes problems and there are no demonstrated benefits to outweigh these.

    • The cracking sound of cavitation in synovial fluid is the least of worries regarding the trickery of chiropractic

      • Dr. Gier and Michael Kenny. Your comments on the effects of spinal manual therapy take no account of the neurological effect of the procedure. I suggest that you both do some readings by neuro-physiologists such as Scott Haldemnan, Heidi Haavik, Gwen Jull, Randy Beck, just to name a few.
        Your ignorance on the topic is palpable.

        • @GibleyGibley on Thursday 31 August 2017 at 22:50

          “the neurological effect of the procedure”

          You’ve had plenty of opportunities to provide such ground-breaking information but haven’t. Why not, or perhaps it doesn’t exist except in your wishful thinking?

          “I suggest that you both do some readings by neuro-physiologists such as Scott Haldemnan, Heidi Haavik, Gwen Jull, Randy Beck, just to name a few.”

          You cite a noted self-professed subluxationist and expect to be taken seriously? Jull is a physio who doesn’t do chiro neck manipulations so I assume you want to steal from a medically based profession?

          Just what do you do, camel breath-mint? Are you a subluxationist? Do you use the clicker thing? do you treat infants?

          “Your ignorance on the topic is palpable.” Got a mirror handy?

        • Just exactly WHAT action, reaction or activity in a human body is NOT a ‘Neurological’ “effect”?? Or can’t be claimed by unctuous salesmen to be such?? Is the profound-effect still as profound when I manipulate my own neck or back?? Or only when I pay a charlatan with a degree in subluxationism??
          If you start invoking ‘neurology’ we all recognize your shift from physics to metaphysics…the playground for pseudoscience.
          How about the CSP (cortical silence period) of 13-18 minutes? What else is there?? Even if your religious-overlay of a “neurological effect” (straight out of DDs gypsy trickery) was something meritorious WHAT possible point is it? except as a lucrative selling proposition to the DC? Are you going to tells use you have Supra-mundane insights as to a profound CNS influence??? “Immune system improvement”, “toxin clearance”, “improved cognition”, “forgiveness of sin”??
          Why does this profundity only show up in devotees anecdotes and marketing, like homeopathy and Scientology’s “effects”?
          When manipulation only gives transient pain relief for the typical ’15 minutes’ the patient needs to be hooked with a more ‘compelling lie’…..like Christians wth cancer who are told by their fellows: “Gods’ love becomes apparent in the next life, not this one”…how does one argue with that?
          Chiropractic doesn’t work well on any condition….IF it stuck to manipulation and had never concocted all the other theatrical “adjustment” devices and maintenance of nonsense rhetoric it may have a small place in real health-care….but the lies and hyperbolic rhetoric disenfranchised it 70 years ago.

  • @Rina
    Or does it offer any solution….to ANYTHING, ever !!!

  • You completely lost me when you said “a classmate adjusted his newborn while the umbilical cord was still attached” haha please! with that statement alone you lost all credibility. Get a life old man.

  • I love my chiropractor. I have had problems with my back to the point of ending in the ER because I couldn’t move. My friend who swears by it told me for years that I should go and after another issue with my back I did. I have had circulation problems for years as well where i always felt tingling in my arms and legs specially when I went to sleep. I had to lay down flat with my arms on the sides of my body to keep them from falling a sleep. I no longer have this problem either.

    • @Jazz
      Chiropractors excel at only one thing, seducing their customers into believing it was the chiropractic theatricals that caused whatever improvement experienced.
      “Chiropractic” is the correct term for the bag of tricks invented by an uneducated snake oil salesman named D. D. Palmer as a more lucrative act than magnet healing.

  • @Wyatt on Wednesday 08 November 2017 at 23:31

    The fundamental problem with chiros is they are thick, that is, not intelligent enough to realise their level of stupidity. Most, like you, cannot even write properly. The mess below is indicative of the way you think, or don’t.

    “In Lina’s defense…Why? Because we are busy helping people and are normally small businesses with case studies which are quickly dismissed because there are not enough people in the study by people like you and the medical profession.”

    No, you are busy defrauding suggestible people out of their cash. A case study from a chiro is useless because it is only ever done for he purpose of reinforcing their delusional ideas, and not a critical examination.

    “We are not a large hospital or research center.”

    See first line immediately above.

    “There are people being cut open unnecessarily based on research in the medical community everyday. Have you looked at the stats?”

    Doctors treat real diseases, not faff around with backs pretending to treat imaginary illnesses with imaginary theatricals.

    “Not only do most chiropractors take more credits than medical doctors but we continue to learn about nutrition and a plethora of other natural means of healing unlike most MD’s.”

    We have had this same nonsense argument before and it doesn’t wash this time either. If you learned about science at all, you wouldn’t be a chiro.

    “I think I read that you have a Chiropractic degree…if you are not satisfied with your training, then maybe your school was inferior.”

    Did you actually read the post or react without thinking (rhetorical question alert for the thick-headed)?

    “Mine was not. also, we are not the only ones who state that nerves are attached to organs and can help facilitate the health of the human anatomy and physiology. Many books by MDs, PTs etc. have stated the same (and no, I am not going to site the books for you).”

    Nerves are attached to organs? Really? Surely not? I wonder if Gray knew that when writing THE book on anatomy? The difference is that chiros think nerves have special properties they don’t, or that some magic churns around in the human body.

    “Oh, and maybe there were crickets chirping because Lina left your site and moved on with her life.”

    Perhaps we went to a chiro and wasted more money?

    By-the-way, have you ever heard of regression to the mean, self-limiting condition, or placebo?

  • @James & Frank Collins: your responses are spot on, precise and of course utterly logical!
    Thus the woefully inept DCer will have NO idea WTF you’re talking about and spend the day mumbling to his “patients” how the Medical profession and intelligent people are attempting to mislead the public with facts and logic….and you mustn’t listen to them….ever.

  • well I have had about eight sessions for femoral sciatica and the first session I walked away painless, my leg had been so weak I depended on my right leg and a a stick, I carried the stick into the shops. The next week he having seen my xray said he was very worried about having done chiro on my and has proceeded to do massage which has usually seen me walk away almost painless, but I still have aching ankle but have concluded it is the way I use my foot and unrelated to sciatica. It has been a miracle how I have been made mobile and rarely if ever use a stick or limp even.

    • “Treatment for sciatica isn’t always necessary, as the condition often improves naturally within around six weeks.” [NHS choices]

      You said: “It has been a miracle how I have been made mobile and rarely if ever use a stick or limp even.” So please tell us how you distinguish a miracle due to chiropractic from the condition improving naturally within around six weeks? How do you know acupuncture would not have had the same effect? Or crystal healing? Or reiki? Do you not see the problem with your logic at all?

    • @Gill: I believe you made a typo…didn’t you mean “I walked away penniless…”?

  • @Bjorn Geir

    Attention Trolls

    For a doctor with a lot to say about quackery and trickery in other health professions – perhaps an introspection is in order with the ridiculous and wasteful weight loss surgery that apparently you perform regularly. I believe that your specialty in bariatric surgery will soon be considered a laughable barbaric procedure which will be long extinct after the chiropractic profession continues to thrive and continually expand their scope of practice to help others. I am sure in your everyday practice you question the necessity of your surgical procedure when really all your patient’s need are willpower and caloric restriction. Tell me you don’t practice trickery, your are the epitome of a snake oil salesman.

    With love,
    Internet Troll

    • all your patient’s need are willpower and caloric restriction

      What about the people who wouldn’t even live long enough to lose the weight this way? Are their saved lives snake oil as well?
      What about not going to the chiroquack and hiring a prostitute instead? At least, he/she won’t be making any unfounded health claims, and it will be both more pleasant and less expensive. It would likely be decent weight loss exercise as well.

      • @Bart

        I just busted out laughing thank you for your idiotic analogy – it made my day!!

        With Love,
        Internet Troll

        • I just busted out laughing thank you for your idiotic analogy – it made my day!!

          I suspected a response of this type. There is no analogy here. Both professions specialise in fondling people. One does it honestly, the other one dishonestly. I would prefer the honest one, which isn’t the chiroquack, in case that problem is too hard to solve.

        • I find it a very valid juxtaposition, actually. I think chiropractic should also include a “happy ending”, and charge accordingly of course. This would work wonders for the profession! There are few people that would doubt its usefulness as a practice then…

          • James, what is the matter with you? You keep piling nonsense into this blog that readers have to wade through and you can’t be bothered to answer questions regarding comments that you have made.

            You wrote:
            ‘James on Monday 13 November 2017 at 12:19
            No! Patients in psychiatry are typically not addicted to their medications. They are told to take them to keep their disorder under control and, quite often, they forget or don’t, which is why, also often, they have flares of aggravation. Homeopathy addicts mever forget to take their pills, actually, they often ignore more knowledgeable suggestions because they are brainwashed into believing medicine is a conspiracy to kill people, or stuff. They are constantly seeking their homeopathic products and care, no matter what.

            Physicians that keep prescribing homeopathic products with no effect to either please their patients or make money, or both, are also included in your list of potentially criminal behavior, though you missed the mention…

            And… No! Having patients addicted to any medication, drugs or anything is irrelevant in a discussion about homeopathy prescription prevalence and the consequent wrongdoing.’

            I asked you:
            Greg on Thursday 16 November 2017 at 13:03
            James, it is noteworthy that you have not addressed the substance of your statements.

            Now, do ‘homeopathy patients mever forget to take their pills?

            How would you know this?

            If you are able to answer this question then maybe we can go to point 2. I would not bet on that either.

          • Dear readers, I apologize for the nonsense I am piling into this blog. Thankfully, private investigator Greg has finally uncovered my bad habit.

            Now, Greg, let’s pretend for a few sentences that you are not insisting on malevolent purpose and just have ample time to waste…

            I answered this point clearly. From homeopaths and patients thereof. The advice on every homeopath’s table is such. Do you advise your followers to not worry much about missing some dose?

            By the way, why do you ask? You disagree? Can you produce one counter-example of serious homeopathic expertise that does not insist on the importance of the pills/potions? Do you have the guts to state that what I said is not the case, and maybe support what you say somehow? You cannot show an answer is “no” just by questioning whether it is not “yes”.

            I wouldn’t advise anyone to try to investigate homeopaths because, as Dr. Ernst has experienced, they complain to the point of bending rules to protect their mystical principles…and to the point of causing harm at times. Also, after so many years of failure, homeopathy is clearly pseudoscience and I see it as such. Your requesting “scientific” evidence about anything regarding homeopathy would necessitate recognizing it as a science first, and science has wasted a large amount oftime already to establish that it isn’t.

            Now, you know what I said is true, and I know you persist on something for which, though true, hardly any set of negative evidence can be produced because nobody relevant would provide answers. The one thing you must digest, though, is that any result would only serve to further diminish the credibility of homeopathy. Not that it has any left.

            Now, take a look at my comments again…do you see the question marks there? Feel free to answer something yourself too. In this blog, you ask, people answer. You have gone far enough. Time to play the other way around. Can you answer anything?

          • don’t be daft! Gerg answering anything? that’ll be the day!

      • I don´t think there are many patients who´d agree with this idiot.

        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bariatric_surgery#Effectiveness_of_surgery

  • It is necessary to see a Dr and a Chiro
    In my case, i have numbness & pain problem (leg and hand)

    What i do, i see a Medical Dr. He give me a good advise & exercise. He also give me some vitamin and pain relief medicine.

    It does help, but quite slow (3 weeks or so)

    Then i see a Chiro and ask for treatment. He give me treatment and i’m now back to full health.

    In my opinion both medical dr & chiro help me in this case.

  • I will never understand why we, as patients, have to choose a “side” for our health. Both the medical and chiropractic professions have certain places in health. To have multiple approaches for a patient to choose what happens to them is extremely important.

    Why can’t they both encourage an integrative approach? We have Doctors of Integrative Medicine that suggest herbal remedies as well. Every thing has it’s place and limits. Each profession has its mistakes and quacks as well as cases of doctors amassing $$ from unnecessary treatment. Neither is immune to it. Why is it unforgivable to chiropractic only? It’s unforgivable to medical as well.

    To say that the effect of chiropractic is just placebo or not medically sound is a bit ridiculous when orthopedics and physical therapist do the same thing as chiropractors in regards to adjustments and therapies (hot/cold, electric muscle stimulation, exercise training). I’ve even been to a PT who did dry needling and cupping on me. I’ve also experienced a PT adjust me like a chiropractor had done before.

    The name of the profession is different not the techniques which leads me to believe this is more about the politics of professional competition. Remember EVERY doctor in EVERY profession needs to make money. It all hurts the patients.

    • “I will never understand why we, as patients, have to choose a “side” for our health. Both the medical and chiropractic professions have certain places in health. To have multiple approaches for a patient to choose what happens to them is extremely important.”
      Perhaps I can help you: patients have a right to choose between those treatments that are evidence-based and not to be misled by false claims such as those made by chiros.

      • MDs do not make false claims. HAHAHA. So do they actually tell patients their is an assumed risk of death when visiting the hospital? Do they explain that medical error is the 3rd leading cause of death?

        Oh, they tell them statins will prevent heart disease. False claim.
        They tell them that diabetes is not curable. False claim
        They compare egg intake with smoking on their affect to your health. False claim
        They say arthroscopic surgery of the knee is beneficial. False claim
        They state that surgery, chemo, and radiation is the only treatment for cancer. False claim
        They say that family association is the cause of most inflammatory conditions. False claim
        They do nothing of nutrition or lifestyle management in regard to care. Not a false claim. But Damn, learn some biochemistry.

        The imminent delusion of the super anti chiropractic rhetoric of this post is amazing.

        I agree, chiropractors can not fix everything with an adjustment. and they should never claim to be able to. But they can fix certain spinal pain generators with an adjustment. Fix disc pain with Mckenzie protocol. And help with all inflammatory conditions with diet and lifestyle changes.

        Thanks medical world for the heroin epidemic though. You must be so proud.

        • “chiropractors can not fix everything with an adjustment.”
          just tell us a few conditions they can fix and for which there is good evidence.

          • I can tell you one. Spinal Facet Syndrome. Generation of pain in the area of spinal segment hypo-mobility. A very common cause of low back pain, neck pain, and headaches. And as low back pain, neck pain, and headaches are 3 of the top 10 reasons we visit the doctor, i would say it is pretty obvious why chiropractors would use spinal manipulation on most of their patients. MAINLY, because people do not typically see chiropractors for any other reasons than neck pain, back pain, or headaches. So the vast majority of the community of chiropractic patients have a high probability of positive benefits of spinal manipulation.

            I notice below you stated that PT and DO do not use adjustments on every patient.. So are you substantiating the adjustment if it isn’t used on all patients? And as more people see PT and DO for reasons other than neck pain, back pain, and headaches, wouldn’t that make sense to why they do not adjust every patient?

          • ” are you substantiating the adjustment if it isn’t used on all patients?”
            no, but nonsense done on a few patients is less than nonsense done on most!
            Spinal Facet Syndrome?
            you forgot to link to some good evidence – this is a blog where we are keen on this sort of thing and less keen on opinion and belief!

          • https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2642848/

            Are you saying that you do not believe facet syndrome is a real thing?

            I am trying to understand what you mean by “good evidence” because i know anecdotal evidence doesnt work for this bias blog.

          • edzardernst.com/2012/11/what-is-and-what-isnt-clinical-evidence-and-why-is-the-distinction-important/

      • But there must be medical evidence since DOs and PTs use the same techniques. I have found them the same as chiropractors…Yet they don’t seem to face the same criticism as chiropractors.

        Which either suggests 1) a bias, or 2) an incomplete argument, or 3) that there is evidence, it just depends on the profession who suggests the treatment.

        This is what confuses me. It’s sole focus is chiropractic but not the other professions that use techniques/treatments chiropractors use. It is incomplete.

        (Also, that was just a piece of my post. My response is about a bigger problem that effects all patient based professions.)

        • chiros use spinal manipulation on almost every single patient, and there is no good evidence for this therapy.
          physios and osteos use spinal manipulation much less.

          • https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2642848/

            Are you saying that you do not believe facet syndrome is a real thing?

          • I did not say that, did I?

          • Ok, so you are saying facet syndrome is a real thing?

            If so, how do you feel it is properly treated?

          • can’t you read?
            you made a claim and asked for the evidence that supports it!

          • “Can’t you read?” Hm. Can not you read?

            yeah, Left to right, top to bottom. I can even decipher that sentence.

            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16595446

            Is this scientific enough?

          • and you think that this is evidence for your claim?
            let me tell you: it is not!

          • This is scientific evidence of the pain generators involved with spinal facet syndrome.

            What are you looking for, scientific research that proves chiropractic adjustments alleviate these generators?

          • am I corresponding with a moron?
            1) you claimed chiros can treat facet syndrome effectively
            2) i asked to link the evidence for this claim
            3) you keep asking me “what are you looking for”
            BIZARRE!

          • This is scientific evidence of the pain generators involved with spinal facet syndrome.

            What are you looking for, scientific research that proves chiropractic adjustments alleviate these generators?

            Just because we went to the moon, is not evidence we can get there by meditation, yes?

          • https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3399029/

            Stay focused Bart. Evidence proves the pain generators. Evidence proves the adjustment affects the same tissue. Couple that with the subjective change in the patients with neck and low back pain caused by facet syndrome before and after an adjustment. I think we have gathered some validity here.

            Deduce some shit.

          • you did not read the blog-post i recommended earlier, did you?
            it’s like playing chess with a pigeon: it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory.

          • Deduce some shit.

            That seems to be your specialty.

          • Edzard. I have to give these points to you very slowly, because if i try to put more than one topic in the comment, you only pull the one out that fits your bias narrative.

            So, to continue this step by step process, taking out the fact that ole bart picked the one point out, completely overlooking the research i presented,

            what is your comment on the evidence of what causes facet syndrome. and the evidence of what the adjustment does?

          • you did not present any evidence as to what adjustments do to the syndrome [a syndrome is a set of symptoms, if i remember correctly]
            if you don’t want to learn what is evidence and what not, this is your choice – as it is my choice to end the pigeon chess with you.
            CHERIO

          • Edzard, Did you miss this post from above?

            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3399029/

            Stay focused Bart. Evidence proves the pain generators. Evidence proves the adjustment affects the same tissue. Couple that with the subjective change in the patients with neck and low back pain caused by facet syndrome before and after an adjustment. I think we have gathered some validity here.

            Deduce some shit.

          • Mr. Mozingo
            Are you sure you understand what this discussion is all about? You seem to be very preoccupied with arguing for the existence of the so called facet syndrome, right?
            No one has ever doubted that the facet joints can hurt. No one has ever doubted that there are pain receptors in these joints and that inflammation and degenerative changes in them can be a source of back pain. This is not an issue.
            What this discussion is all about is whether the disciples of DD Palmer can use his theatrical thumping acts to do something about the problem.
            You seem to be arguing for this and I have counted three references you supply in an apparent attempt to support your case. Now let’s look at these.

            The first reference is to a discussion article that basically says there are different receptors in our tissues that can send messages of pain movement etc. to the brain. OK, we know that already. It says however nothing about whether chiropractic HVLA thumping is helpful for such pain What it says, literally is: We guess there is something there that might be sending some signals along some nerves when we manipulate the spine… and the conclusion:

            Based upon the experimental literature, we propose that SMT may produce a sustained change in the synaptic efficacy of central neurons by evoking a high frequency, bursting discharge from several types of dynamically-sensitive, mechanosensitive paraspinal primary afferent neurons.

            This is called conjecture and science-babble, not scientific clinical evidence.

            The second reference is even less interesting. It tells of discussions at a convention of chiropractors:

            The chiropractors attending the workshop described the characteristics of an acute, uncomplicated lumbar facet syndrome in much the same way as chronic pain from the facet joints has been described in the literature. Furthermore, the acute, uncomplicated facet syndrome was considered to have an uncomplicated clinical course, responding quickly to spinal manipulative therapy.

            Yeah, right… more conjecture. Let’s move on.

            The third is an abstract to something behind a paywall that seems to be deducing the well known fact that facet joints are sometimes afflicted by painful conditions. We knew that already.
            But is this evidence that HVLA SMT is effective/efficacious? I don’t think so.

            Summarizing, we already know the facet joints are joints and joints can become affected by painful conditions such as rheumatism, arthritis et cetera.

            The question at hand is: Does chiropractic therapy help for painful affections of facet (any?) joints and do these three references provide evidence of this?

            As the professor would put it: NO.

            Mr. Mozingo. You may have, or think you have a doctoral degree of some sort but whatever schooling inflicted this honorific, it seems not to have left you with neither insight into physiology, anatomy and clinical medicine, nor practical insight and training in science and rational accumulation of knowledge. It is not enough to know how to read titles, abstracts or even whole articles. You have to be able to assimilate what you read and to put it into context with reality.

          • @Trent Mozingo on Thursday 22 February 2018 at 19:04

            “https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3399029/

            Stay focused Bart. Evidence proves the pain generators. Evidence proves the adjustment affects the same tissue. Couple that with the subjective change in the patients with neck and low back pain caused by facet syndrome before and after an adjustment. I think we have gathered some validity here.

            Deduce some shit.”

            Trent (I’ll call you that because you aren’t a doctor’s backside), it is that chiro’s don’t learn about medicine, or logic, and come up with nonsense, like the above, as if it is any form of argument. It is a total non sequitur. By-the-way, have you ever been asked to treat a medical emergency, such as a car accident, lance a boil, or even give a vaccination? Naaah, of course not: that is real medicine, not faffing around with backs.

            Most back pain is self-limiting, likely to resolve without intervention, and subject to regression to the mean (according to the regular research reports by the good prof). Evidence is a properly conducted RCT, not some half-arsed post hoc ergo proptor hoc example you have provided. “Evidence” is not convincing your small mind, it is providing information which will withstand rigorous scrutiny and analysis, sadly something you didn’t ever learn.

            I’m doing a bit of background research on youand have discovered you are a ‘scraper’, that is, the Graston nonsense. This fixes you firmly in the camp of Palmer graduates who will believe any old rubbish, for a buck.

          • Bjorn, or however you say that,

            Many people seek medical attention for low back pain and neck pain. Many of which have indicators of facet syndrome.

            Now, common medical practices for such condition is, pain medication, muscle relaxers, and even facet blocks.

            Can you show me scientific proof that any of these work better than chiropractic adjustments?

            Because the medical world are using them, and no one bats an eye. Even though an opioid epidemic is upon us.

            now, you can do what you can to pick apart a study that has traction on the affect of mechonreceptors with an adjustment, a treatment that D.O. use as well. Oh and PTs. BUUUT. thats ok. just chiropractors are quacks.

            and Frank. I will call you that because i dont care enough to look you up. You say, most back pain is self relieving.. This is true. Time does heal all. But my question is. Why do so many patients get pain medication the first time they go to the doctor for back pain, if it is self relieving? Is it justifiable to pass a medication in the time before it self relieves?

          • @Trent Mozingo on Friday 23 February 2018 at 13:09

            and Frank. I will call you that because i dont care enough to look you up. You say, most back pain is self “relieving.. This is true. Time does heal all. But my question is. Why do so many patients get pain medication the first time they go to the doctor for back pain, if it is self relieving? Is it justifiable to pass a medication in the time before it self relieves?”

            I note with interest the lack of response to my first paragraph. You are not qualified to do anything in medicine (that is, real medicine, not your make-believe kind), not even to lance a boil.

            I have nothing to look up, as I don’t make outrageous and silly claims about curing people of anything, except perhaps for stupidity, of which you and all other chiros exhibit a special kind of.

            Your question is mind-numbingly stupid. The medication is for pain relief so that people will will be able to go about the lives with a lesser degree of infirmity while their back heals. I had back pain for two and a half weeks, a month ago, and took pain relievers when the pain was particularly bad. As with most back pain, it resolved itself. However, if I went to see a scammer, like you, my self-resolving condition would have been claimed as a cure by you.

            As with all chiros who post to this blog, you keep digging a bigger hole. Do you not understand that you are laughed at, your lack of logic, your lack of medical knowledge, and the incessant use of Logical Fallacies make all of your responses laughable?

          • Frank,

            You really should look up the symptoms of a sociopath.

            Cherio

          • @trent mozingo on Sunday 25 February 2018 at 14:16

            “You really should look up the symptoms of a sociopath.”

            If you had even a passing understanding of sociopathy, you wouldn’t have used the term, but you are a chiro after, all so understanding does not apply. Seriously, you are a back faffer who thinks a celestial, genocidal fairy provides the basis of your witchcraft. Comedy gold.

          • Mr. Mozingo, you appear to be very preoccupied with protecting your profession here, and you miss some very important points, while exhibiting top-level cognitive dissonance. You have developed an adaptive preference for evidence that supports your positions.

            I cannot understand why you bring up matters such as low-back pain and spinal manipulation all the time. These things have been adequately dealt with for quite some time now.

            Things are simple. When you play around in your own little world, what did you expect to find? Check out what the American Chiropractic Association says about the Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics:

            The Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics (JMPT) is the most respected and widely read chiropractic science journal in the world, and it is the only chiropractic journal indexed in Medline. JMPT is dedicated to the advancement of chiropractic health care. It taps into the latest information in chiropractic therapeutics and features high-quality, peer-reviewed journal articles and practical information for clinical settings.

            While I was not prejudiced that this journal is probably another echo chamber, I rather easily came across an article that concludes:

            CONCLUSIONS:
            Spinal manipulative therapy produces slightly better outcomes than placebo therapy, no treatment, massage, and short wave therapy for nonspecific low back pain of less than 3 months duration. Spinal manipulative therapy, exercise, usual physiotherapy, and medical care appear to produce similar outcomes in the first 4 weeks of treatment.

            This leads readers to believe that there is indeed something into Spinal Manipulative Treatment and, while the effects are rather small, the authors choose their own wording to keep the flame on for Spinal Manipulative Therapy.

            Let’s travel over to the real world now… What does the Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews say about Spinal Manipulative Therapy for Low Back Pain?

            In 2004, it concluded:

            REVIEWER’S CONCLUSIONS:
            There is no evidence that spinal manipulative therapy is superior to other standard treatments for patients with acute or chronic low-back pain.

            A bit later, it was divided in two categories, acute low back pain, and chronic low back pain. The reviews read:
            Acute low-back pain:

            AUTHORS’ CONCLUSIONS:
            SMT is no more effective in participants with acute low-back pain than inert interventions, sham SMT, or when added to another intervention. SMT also appears to be no better than other recommended therapies. Our evaluation is limited by the small number of studies per comparison, outcome, and time interval. Therefore, future research is likely to have an important impact on these estimates. The decision to refer patients for SMT should be based upon costs, preferences of the patients and providers, and relative safety of SMT compared to other treatment options. Future RCTs should examine specific subgroups and include an economic evaluation.

            Chronic low-back pain:

            AUTHORS’ CONCLUSIONS:
            High quality evidence suggests that there is no clinically relevant difference between SMT and other interventions for reducing pain and improving function in patients with chronic low-back pain. Determining cost-effectiveness of care has high priority. Further research is likely to have an important impact on our confidence in the estimate of effect in relation to inert interventions and sham SMT, and data related to recovery.

            Unless you want to switch the discussion to whether we should trust the Chiropractic magazine or the Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews, I cannot help but ask, what are you up to with pain generators and facet joints that you only see in images? Pushing and pulling the lower back in your own special ways makes absolutely no difference to whatever else one might undertake for that purpose anyway, for low back pain. Now, how do you need that to be presented to you to understand that the popping sounds from playing with the lower back do not make much of a difference to clients than simple massage or, some times, even nothing?

            Frank is not a sociopath, you are simply persisting on something that has been proven to be of little to no additional value. Will you be the first to cross the bridge?

          • James,

            would you consider the research that yousited to discredit chiropractic adjustments to be “good evidence” or “scientific Evidence” per Edzard’s criteria?

          • @Trent Mozingo on Monday 26 February 2018 at 15:33

            “James,
            would you consider the research that yousited to discredit chiropractic adjustments to be “good evidence” or “scientific Evidence” per Edzard’s criteria?”

            For you, no evidence will break through your cognitive disonance, and, two, did that charlatan ‘college’ not teach you anything about proper research?

          • “sited”

            Like nearly all of you scammers with cognitive dissonance, you aren’t very smart. The word is “cited”, as in to refer to.

          • Mr. Mozingo, to quote directly from Dr. Ernst’s post:

            In a systematic review, we assess the quality and quantity of the available evidence, try to synthesise the findings and arrive at an overall verdict about the efficacy of the treatment in question. Technically speaking, this process minimises selection and random biases. Systematic reviews and meta-analyses [these are systematic reviews that pool the data of individual studies] therefore constitute, according to a consensus of most experts, the best available evidence for or against the efficacy of any treatment.

            I would classify the articles I cited from the Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews to be excellent evidence. I wouldn’t agree with the word discredit of course. In medicine, good researchers don’t take sides, as the emotionally loaded word “discredit” implies. There is a fair level of professionalism. Researchers do not get emotionally attached to treatments, they always distance themselves, considering all treatments without making discriminations, whether treatments are implausible or not (although they should, generally, avoid studying implausible treatments because it usually is a waste of resources), and judge depending on the results.

            And when something fails to exhibit a fair level of efficacy, they let go. Now, spinal manipulation, according to the best available evidence, makes almost no difference, so it is time to let go. If you just let go, rest assured that a whole new world of insights will reveal itself.

        • Robin McKenzie, arguably the most research-oriented and skeptical of PTs in the last 50years pointed out in the 1980’s: “spinal manipulation shouldn’t be dispensed to the entire population to find the very few that actually need it”. Though perhaps he didn’t uncover the homogeneous population to which it is most reasonably delivered (nor have ANY Chiropractors either lol…) his sentiment is one impossible to imagine being uttered by ANY Chiropractor.

          • @James: you nailed it expertly.
            All that’s left is the cryin’….and in Trents’ and Critical_Chiros’ case; the inevitable denyin’

          • I’m a fan of Robin Mckenzie’s work Michael. The research supporting it though is less than you would expect.
            Evidence-informed management of chronic low back pain with the McKenzie method
            https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1529943007009114
            The whole 2008 special supplement of The Spine Journal edited by Scott Haldeman on 25 different approaches for LBP is a must read.
            I am equally skeptical of ALL approaches.
            Like that quote and happy to utter it:
            “spinal manipulation shouldn’t be dispensed to the entire population to find the very few that actually need it”.
            Also some interesting articles recently on the sub-grouping question from physio’s and chiro’s.
            I also recommend going onto the SomaSimple forum which has some excellent critical physio’s though they do lament that they are lone voices in the wilderness.
            As for denyin’ happy to apply it to mythical subluxations.

          • Trent: perhaps if you hadn’t pursued a fruitless, non-falsifiable “profession” you might know how to read research, AND act on it i.e. discard your entrepreneurial-theatrics. But since that’s a non-starter I would just like to point out that “real research” seeks to overcome the NULL.
            Research isn’t required to be structured to PROVE a negative. Thus research doesn’t set out to “discredit” something (i.e. the “Chiropractic adjustment”….whatever the hell that even entails, as you have purported to suggest many of your equally-well-educated fellows practice a “joke”).
            Chiropractic never intersects with “science”….that one of your relatively pointless interventions, manipulation, was usurped by it and became a standard scam to “remove subluxation and unblock innate flow” doesn’t change its non-science foundation.

          • So, after all your BS responses, the answer to my question is, no.

          • @not_critical enough_chiro: your sententious arrogance aside (YOU are not a necessary or apt component in dispensation of what research is pertinent and how it’s to be most accurately interpreted. And just to be clear we skeptics are all well aware of the lack of long term/substantive benefit to McKenzie and virtually all guru-based/repetive treatment based methods…..like Chiropractic and most PT.
            You are a DC who fancies and posits him/herself as a PhD, MS and PT or whatever profession you co-opt to make you feel right-with-the world. BUT you cannot just re-invent and side-step a 123 year old scam profession you chose to your pleasing just because you’ve had an epiphany. I will speculate that unlike the complete moronic DCs who bloviate here you are not quite so dumb and I’ll considered….and you tacitly recognize the anti-chiropractic bloggers are clearly the intelligent ones….so by practicing “as if” you are a PhD or DPT you assimilate, like a pod on invasion of the body snatchers, a semblance of self respect(?).
            However You are a DC and Chiropractic IS and always will be the “finding and removal of a vertebral subluxation in order to allow full expression of innate”. Decry it all you like, masquerade behind research, suggest anything you decide to do constitutes “being a DC” but WTF do you do all day that a DC degree granted you if NOT subluxation detection? A DC degree offers no other avenue.

          • Mike and frank,

            How do you polish those shiny gems on your belly?

            And all of that neon hair must be difficult to manage. Cudos.

          • @ the physiotherapist who titles themself ‘Critical_Chiro’.

            The special issue of The Spine Journal you linked to is interesting. Most of the articles carry the weaselly-worded phrase ‘Evidence-informed management of…’ in their title. Haldeman, the overall editor of the volume, explains in his concluding piece: “The guiding principle behind evidence-informed management is that authors should be aware of and use research evidence when available, make personal recommendations based on clinical experience when it is not available, and be transparent about the process used to reach their conclusion.” In other words, ‘evidence-informed’ is an open door for opinions based on subjective, anecdotal experience, an approach that has been deprecated on this blog ad nauseam.

            The authors of the McKenzie method article you seem to like begins with a ‘Description’:

            Everything I know I learned from my patients. I did not set out to develop a McKenzie method. It evolved spontaneously over time as a result of clinical observation.

            So it appears McKenzie never learned anything from published evidence. Perhaps he never even thought it worthwhile even to read what other people published.

            Can you really never see why you keep getting hammered by me and others who appreciate that medicine is far too complex to continue to be based on ‘clinical experience’? You’ve been asked umpteen times; what is chiropractic without subluxations? Let me ask a different question: what do you regard as the three most important research-based advances that have been adopted in chiropractic over the past 10 years?

          • @Michael Kenny
            “WTF do you do all day that a DC degree granted you if NOT subluxation detection? A DC degree offers no other avenue.”
            @Frank Odds
            “what is chiropractic without subluxations”.
            Those are the arguments that the subluxation based chiropractors use as well. They like to call me a “medipractor”. You are both either end of the spectrum using the same arguments. In 25+ years in practice I have not once Tx a subluxation. Even back in the 1980’s when I was at university Subluxation was only taught in its historical context.

            As for the 2008 supplement of The Spine journal Frank, Scott Haldeman invited the leaders in the various professions to submit their evidence in separate articles and then he collated it. This included surgery, steroid injections, minimally invasive nuclear decompression, radiofrequency neurotomy, CBT, exercise, analgesics, massage, manipulation, acupunctire etc. Up until that point I thought the medical approaches were evidence based and chiropractic lagged behind. Now I am equally skeptical of medicine.
            @MK
            “However You are a DC and Chiropractic IS and always will be the “finding and removal of a vertebral subluxation in order to allow full expression of innate”.
            Ring the chiropractic bell. “Chiropractic IS and always will be”. Hmmmmm. Sorry to shatter your deeply held religious beliefs on what is chiropractic.
            @FO
            “what do you regard as the three most important research-based advances that have been adopted in chiropractic over the past 10 years?”
            Very good question and thank you for asking it.
            1. The Denmark chiropractors investing a % of every consult into a research fund and the research coming out of University of Southern Denmark from the likes of Jan Hartvigsen.
            2. Building research capacity and supporting early career researchers with the CARL initiative.
            3. The Swiss model of internships in hospitals researching and collaborating with doctors followed by another year internship outside before being registered.

          • @C_C
            !!!
            Compare your three pathetic ‘research advances’ in chiropractic with (1) two new very effective drugs for treating diabetes introduced last year (empagliflozin and liraglutide), (2) cellular immunotherapy to treat haematological malignancies, (3) a long list of new therapies for forms of cancer. All of these became realities in genuine medicine in just the past two years.

            OK, I know there’s nothing about lower back pain, but let’s face it, C-C; you’re living, totally blinkered, in a make-believe world of magic pseudo-medicine, founded long ago by a charlatan and his son, and you seem to be intellectually incapable of seeing any kind of reality.

          • Frank,

            Jardiance? Are you being serious right now? It might not be as bad as fosamax but it has some pretty harsh effects to the kidneys among other side effects.

            dehydration,
            dizziness,
            lightheadedness,
            weakness,
            yeast infection,
            low blood sugar,
            nausea,
            upper respiratory tract infection,
            high cholesterol,
            joint pain,
            increased urination,
            urinary tract infection,
            thirst, and
            low blood pressure (hypotension).

            and complications like…

            Hypotension
            Ketoacidosis
            Acute Kidney Injury and Impairment in Renal Function
            Urosepsis and Pyelonephritis
            Hypoglycemia with Concomitant Use with Insulin and Insulin Secretagogues
            Genital Mycotic Infections
            Hypersensitivity Reactions
            Increased Low-Density Lipoprotein Cholesterol (LDL-C)

            But i am sure you have another med on the shelf for these pesky problems. The reductionist medical model thought process.

            Would you really prescribe this shit to someone who needs real help?

          • @critical_brain_injury_Chiro: you, Trent, giblets and your ilk are incapable of reading or positing any semblance of rational responses….I assume due to the fact your livelihoods depend wholly on irrationally and obfuscation, it tends to bleed into every crevice of your being.
            I hold NO religious beliefs and holding a “professional” to the description of their “professional” degree and the 123 year old entrenched and still-intact description of their profession does NOT constitute “a religious belief” on my part.
            You somehow don’t recognize Chiropractic can ONLY be described as a “religious” conviction…as it’s name is a portmanteau, it was “concocted” in a moment-in-time by an illiterate uneducated con man in need of a new con, it is extensively tied into religion and religious rhetoric and jargon, is repleat with ‘supra-mundane’ “techniques” AND officially it has NEVER been re-invented or re-named by the intelligentsia managing “it” so as to NOT untether it’s concatenation back to its glorious “resurrection” into being as the “big idea”.
            Real science-based research has NEVER been published proving Chiropractic is even a real-thing…let alone Chiropractic somehow “works” for everything it is ubiquitously advertised for.
            Why don’t you at some point tell the non-religious readers of the blog, using real language, punctuation, proper sentence structure and common sense logic; WTF is YOUR definition of Chiropractic, IF NOT of the profile and criteria created BY ITS’ ACTUAL INVENTOR? And when did you become its new-inventor, apologist and/or authoritative spokesperson and what basis is YOUR Chiropractic STILL Chiropractic, and not just PT, exercise physiology, psychology or athletic-training???? And why prey-tell keep the goddamn name….IF it’s entire precept and (supposed) past-baggage is anathema to you and the “vast majority” of your compatriots?
            At some point side-stepping is just dancing.

          • Mr. Mozingo pulls the old “argumentum ad package insert” gambit, which clearly demonstrates his ignorance of genuine medicine.

            I wonder what the package insert would say about adverse effects of chiropractic manipulations:

            I can offhand think of a few:

            Financial loss
            Time wasted
            Exposure to false health advice
            Exposure to doctor bashing
            Unnecessary exposure to radiation
            Soreness
            Stiffness
            Delayed medical diagnosis
            Delayed medical care
            Worsening of back pain
            Worsening of neck pain
            Herniated intervertebral disc
            Vertebral artery dissection
            Carotid artery dissection
            Stroke
            Locked-in syndrome
            Death

          • Bjorn,

            See there is your odd shift in need for clinical research. Your list was speculation. My list, based on clinical research. You can use any clever exerts from some golden rules to justify it. Are you saying jardiance does not have side effects?

            Seems you have a bias as to when you need clinical research or not. ha.

          • @Trent

            Boy, you chiros (or chiro’s, as the Critical one would put it, with his greengrocer’s English training) really are THICK!

            “My list, based on clinical research.” No, just like Bjorn already said, your list comes from package inserts. These are compiled from clinical trial data plus post-marketing surveillance reports. (That’s something as rare as hens’ teeth in pseudo-medicine.) Post-marketing surveillance for drug adverse effects is a gaping open door to the post hoc fallacy, but it’s worth it because it sometimes uncovers a drug side effect that wasn’t already found in clinical trials.

            Take a look at Table 1 in this FDA-approved Jardiance prescribing information. Note carefully the number of adverse effects reported for the placebo arm of the pooled data. Note the very small proportion of patients with excess prevalence of the ‘adverse effects’ for the two doses of Jardiance. Can you follow my reasoning when I say that, from the table, only male and female mycotic infections and increased urination from that list can be reliably attributed to Jardiance? And that they were seen in (respectively) fewer than 5% and 3% of patients relative to controls?

            The data sheet goes on to implicate thirst (max. 1.7% of patients) as an attributable side-effect: that’s a very small proportion and patients can turn to homeopathy for treatment if they don’t want to consume tap water. There’s also demonstrable changes in creatinine, which relates to kidney problems, but they were clearly seen mainly in patients with moderate, pre-existing defects in renal function. For crying out loud, type 2 diabetes is a serious disease and these side-effects are a small price to pay for a proven benefit in terms of hyperglycaemic control and reduction of mortality from cardiovascular disease.

            As has been repeatedly pointed out on this blog, it’s the risk-benefit ratio that has to be considered in judging the value of any kind of treatment, but you dummies simply don’t begin to comprehend that, which explains why you ask the question only a total lunkhead would dream of posing: “Would you really prescribe this shit to someone who needs real help?” If you think this drug is ‘shit’ it’s you who needs help!

            You said of Bjorn’s catalogue of putative chiropractic side-effects: “Your list was speculation.” No, it was plainly ironic, and arranged to provide a crescendo ending in death, but you’re too dumb to see that. It was also very clearly preceded by a link to a website that summarizes the limited published information on chiropractic side-effects and concludes that roughly 50% of patients undergoing chiropractic ‘adjustments’ experience adverse effects. How faecal does that make chiropractic?

          • Excellent information Frank. I am confused about one thing though. You repeatedly say that the adjustment doesn’t do anything. It is just chiropractors doing physiotherapy and all. But if the adjustment doesn’t do anything, how do so many people have adverse reactions?

          • @Trent

            You asked

            if the adjustment doesn’t do anything, how do so many people have adverse reactions?

            Happy to help explain what I’m sure you already understand perfectly well. Chiros perform spinal manipulations. You whack and manipulate spines (and other parts of the body) by hand and with silly spring-loaded tools (see, e.g., here and here and here). A comprehensive list of your ‘adjustments’ was given by Michael Kenny in this previous comment.

            Now, if you manipulate spines (and any other part of the body) you are not doing nothing at all. You are doing nothing of objectively evidenced benefit for your manipulee, beyond placebo effects. Those manipulations obviously carry some level of risk, hence the datum about the high prevalence of adverse reactions to such treatments.

            I hope this clears up your confusion, Trent. If you still don’t understand how chiropractic manipulations can sometimes result in pain or worse for the recipient, feel free to come back and I’ll try to make it simpler for you.

          • Yes you certainly are confused dear mr. Mozingo.
            I hope you avoid hurting anyone seriously with your make-believe manipulations. Remember, the next neck-crack might be your customer’s last. There are those who win the lottery even if the odds are low. There are those who get stroke from neck manipulation. A chiropractor named Cassidy had such a customer and he went out of his way trying to prove it was not he (chiropractic) that caused it.

            For a risk, however small, to be acceptable the benefit of the risk-inducing action has to be greater than zero. Neck manipulation has never been found to be beneficial. The benefit is zero or close to zero, the risk is not. Chiropractors should not manipulate necks, period.

            Some live to tell their story, other’s do not.

            Now tell us why soft tissue damage, joint dislocations, disk ruptures, bone fractures, stroke, paralysis, locked in syndrome and death should not be listed on the chiropractic package insert?

          • Is this a question?

            Would you really prescribe this shit to someone who needs real help?

            Mr. Mozingo, the answer is yes.

            I understand your unease when faced with the relatively long list of side-effects, but any properly trained doctor is very well aware of the very simple, well documented mode of action of this substance (Empagliflozin) that you probably have a hard time pronouncing, and most, if not all, side-effects are very well explained and practically unavoidable, given the mode of action.

            Empagliflozin is an SGLT2 inhibitor. You see, in the proximal tubules of the nephrons, while the blood is being filtered, glucose is almost totally reabsorbed into the blood (in healthy people, reabsorption in the nephrons is always 100%). For the MOST part, SGLT2 is the protein tasked with reabsorbing glucose from the filtrate, together with sodium. When this is blocked, a very large portion of the filtered glucose is disposed into the urine, instead of back into the blood.

            Now, when glucose is not reabsorbed, it remains in the filtrate along with more sodium and, because glucose cannot penetrate cell membranes, the filtrate is rendered (quite) hypertonic. Mostly throughout the descending limb of the so-called loop of Henle, a lot of water is drawn out of the filtrate by osmosis to balance tonicity across the cell membranes. Because glucose remains in the filtrate, more water stays with it because of a lower osmotic gradient. Later along the path, even in the presence of vasopressin, the lower osmotic gradient leads to lower water reabsorption.

            In simple words, doctors tell to the patient:
            When blood is filtered in your kidneys, glucose travels “to the urine and back” because it is vital to the body. This medication temporarily shuts off the reabsorption system, so glucose stays in the urine. Glucose is practically removed from your blood by “not being reabsorbed from the urine”. Of course, because of (that thing that renders homeopathy impossible) chemistry, when a dense glucose solution flows around membranes that are permeable to water, more water is drawn around the glucose-dense side it by a “force” we call “osmosis”. So, more glucose in the urine draws more water in the urine. This helps you urinate a large part of glucose. Provided you have an excess of glucose in the blood, this is actually a good thing for you. Of course, this is not an easy way out, you will have to watch out how and what you eat, and a few other things too! Here, let me explain to you in detail…. (and the doctor goes on to explain what Mr. Mozingo and, actually, plenty of alternative medicine practitioners never attribute to doctors, such as advice for the importance of lifestyle changes).

            Now, in even simpler words, the medication causes excretion of glucose in the urine and more water is also excreted in the urine as a necessary chemical by-process. That is to say that, most of the side-effects are self-explanatory:

            -dehydration – if much glucose leaves the blood, much water does too.
            -dizziness – a side-effect of dehydration.
            -lightheadedness – same as above.
            -yeast infection – when any liquid contains a nutrient medium things may be able to grow in there or somewhere close.
            -low blood sugar – in case of overdose, this is an expected effect, not a side-effect.
            -nausea – a result of dehydration.
            -increased urination – more glucose in the urine, means more water in the urine, which means higher urine volume.
            -urinary tract infection – as stated earlier, things grow easier in the presence of glucose.
            -thirst – ever felt the sense of dehydration?
            -low blood pressure (hypotension) – persistent fluid loss from high urine output can lead to hypovolemia if the dehydration is not treated, and this is a common cause of hypotension.

            …just to deal with some of them.

            Technically, these are expected and well-understood side-effects that can be controlled if the patient is properly informed. Now, the side-effects of not treating diabetes, for example with this “shit“, are much more grave!

            So, Mr. Mozingo, your reckless and hasty attempts at argumentation to attack medicine just for the sake of protecting your own profession reveals a very incompetent and ignorant background, along with diffuse illusory superiority.

            You asked:

            Would you really prescribe this shit to someone who needs real help?

            I honestly hope you do not offer some chiropractic solution of any kind for the treatment of diabetes.

          • Similar to Franks comment earlier with using pain meds for his temporary back pain. Genius, do not diagnose what is actually causing the back pain (facets, muscle, organic referral) just pass some meds along. AND that is how we are in an opioid crisis. but who cares, right? pain meds are better than adjustments. Got it.

            Using jardiance to treat diabetes is almost as stupid as cutting someones stomach in half to treat obesity. You defend these haphazard treatment modalities with no regard to the actual cause of the issue. You know what else gets sugar out of the blood stream? Glycolysis. Not many side effects come along with that… You are using medications to manipulate how the human body is supposed to function just to suppress the objective outcomes of shit lifestyle choices. You are saving lives by giving someone a temporary fix? I will say, you are quite rehearsed in defending a medication that is prescribed to treat a self inflicted condition (for the most part).

            but no, chiropractic adjustments will never treat diabetes. Never has, never will. Because i am not ignorant enough to neglect the actual cause of excess blood sugar and give a patient false hope by telling them “we will just pump that sugar into your urine and you will be fine.”

          • @Frank Odds on Wednesday 28 February 2018 at 18:23

            “@Trent
            Boy, you chiros (or chiro’s, as the Critical one would put it, with his greengrocer’s English training) really are THICK!”

            I don’t know why you bother to try to explain anything to a bonehead who is incapable of logical thought. He is a short fat man with an enormous ego and limited intelligence. He does call himself doctor however, without any idea of how such a bogus title was ever bestowed on charlatans by a charlatan.

          • […] but who cares, right? pain meds are better than adjustments. Got it.

            It is not a valid comparison Mr. Mozingo. Nor an emotionally loaded one. Pain medications have, for the most part, documented side effects, as well as documented actual effects. They don’t do anything more or anything less than what is expected, and that is what they are used for.

            On the contrary, adjustments don’t do what they are used for. So, they are as good as digging with a spoon, or drilling for oil with a toothpick. They are useless, and even if pain medications never existed, adjustments are still useless, because they don’t “work as advertised”. Pain medications have nothing to do with adjustments being ineffective.

            Using jardiance to treat diabetes is almost as stupid as cutting someones stomach in half to treat obesity. You defend these haphazard treatment modalities with no regard to the actual cause of the issue.

            The benefit of the doubt must be given to you by default because your ignorant statement that using jardiance to treat diabetes or cutting someone’s stomach in half to treat obesity is stupid means you have probably never met anyone that is obese or has diabetes.

            First of all, this is not about pushing medications, we know what is necessary for prevention and/or treatment. We also do our own comparisons about medications and, sometimes, they are not as effective as other treatments for some specific purposes, and we know it. Doctors prescribe and suggest treatments based on efficacy.

            So, Mr. Mozingo, a person around 40 years of age, with a BMI around 40 (and not looking like Arnold), presents with complaints about blurry vision, constant weakness, alteration of sensory perception in the limbs… what do you suggest to tell them? Here, Mr./Mrs. Doe, let me show you how to do some chin-ups, lift some weights, jog for about 5-10km everyday, and give up on fatty foodstuffs and sweets and you’ll be great? When the situation is advanced, by the time Mr./Mrs. Doe reaches a normal BMI following this advice only, he/she may not have limbs anymore. Removing a limb is not the preferred way to reach a normal BMI Mr. Mozingo. There are cases where medications and surgical interventions are an urgent need and they are the only immediately available line of defense. And bariatric surgery is very effective.

            Also, do you think that a person with that profile always finds all these changes easy, or even desirable? There are people who simply will not obey. In medicine, you should rid your mind of all great “success stories” about people who lost 50-100 pounds and “felt reborn”. The average case is a person that simply won’t reconcile his desires with what his health demands, even urgently. It is very hard to explain to people why too much parmesan f*cks up their blood or that honey is not actually an alternative to sugar, rather it is much more like sugar, and “alternative” does not mean one can consume higher quantities thereof. It is not easy to make them feel comfortable with low-calorie sweeteners when everyone else around them consumes doughnuts sprinkled all around with sugar like crazy. There are social implications Mr. Mozingo, and people do not always listen to their doctors’ great advice, they want a faster and easier way. The matters you keep simplifying here have more psychological aspects than you would care to know Mr. Mozingo. It’s not as easy as, just treat the cause. The patient is the cause, and many times, they keep being the cause. Doctors have to minimize the suffering and the short- and long-term complications, while patients are being stubborn. So, instead of watching them fail to comply, and suffering the inevitable symptoms of their condition, doctors sometimes choose medications, for as long as is necessary.

            And, as if all this trouble was not enough, a regulatory measure has to be established to keep some patients “down to earth”. It is not like bariatric surgical interventions are an “easy way out”. There is a limit that determines when it provides a higher benefit than risk. This is hard to establish.

            All in all, lifestyle changes are a great piece of advice, Mr. Mozingo, far better than medications, at times, but they are either not always strictly adhered to, or do not produce an effect quickly enough to avoid further consequences. This is why we need medications, because they have an immediate effect and assist in laying the foundations for reversing a condition (when such a thing is possible) by first blocking further harm (or when impossible, by reducing further harm).

            You know what else gets sugar out of the blood stream? Glycolysis. Not many side effects come along with that…

            Glycolysis, Mr. Mozingo? Glycolysis does not get sugar out of the blood stream Mr. Mozingo, it gets it “out” of the cells. Glycolysis occurs in the cells, not in the blood stream. First, glucose has to reach the cells, i.e. to enter into the cells from the blood stream. This is the hard part Mr. Mozingo! The cellular membrane is not permeable to glucose. When glucose gets inside the cells, things are much more optimistic and we are somewhat relieved from that part onwards. As a bonus, let me clear the misconception you have about this matter. Exercise does not rid blood stream of glucose because it upregulates glycolysis, it does so because it upregulates muscular intracellular translocation of GLUT4 proteins to the membrane. After all this time in this blog, you should know better than trying to play smartass in here. I don’t blame you, however, if you knew all these things, you wouldn’t be a chiropractor. And if you want to sound more convincing, try to use more specific terms, such as “glucose”, not “sugar”.

            You are using medications to manipulate how the human body is supposed to function just to suppress the objective outcomes of shit lifestyle choices.

            Well, there is always the option of letting them suffer the consequences of their choices! …but there is an oath (and dozens of regulatory measures) that binds doctors ethically (and legally), to not do so.

            You are saving lives by giving someone a temporary fix? I will say, you are quite rehearsed in defending a medication that is prescribed to treat a self inflicted condition (for the most part).

            I am not rehearsed Mr. Mozingo, at least not more than if I were describing, for example, the Pythagorean Theorem. We call this knowledge Mr. Mozingo. I did not defend anything, I was simply describing how reality works.

            Oh, and it is not meant to be a temporary fix, Mr. Mozingo, not in the case of Type 2 diabetes, at least. Remember:

            In simple words, doctors tell to the patient:
            When blood is filtered in your kidneys… […] […] This helps you urinate a large part of glucose. Provided you have an excess of glucose in the blood, this is actually a good thing for you. Of course, this is not an easy way out, you will have to watch out how and what you eat, and a few other things too! Here, let me explain to you in detail…. (and the doctor goes on to explain what Mr. Mozingo and, actually, plenty of alternative medicine practitioners never attribute to doctors, such as advice for the importance of lifestyle changes).

            No matter how hard you try to imply that doctor’s don’t care about advice over lifestyle amendments, it won’t change the fact that they do. And it won’t make spinal manipulative therapy anymore effective, of course.

          • @non-doctor Trent Mozingo on Friday 02 March 2018 at 13:05

            “Similar to Franks comment earlier with using pain meds for his temporary back pain. Genius, do not diagnose what is actually causing the back pain (facets, muscle, organic referral) just pass some meds along. AND that is how we are in an opioid crisis. but who cares, right? pain meds are better than adjustments. Got it.”

            It was muscular, bonehead. I had a laminectomy at L5-S1 33 years ago and have been perfect ever since. Occasionally, I have muscle twinges, like everyone else and, like everyone else, they spontaneously resolve without seeing a witchdoctor like you. Besides, you crap on about patient choice; it was MY choice to take a few painkillers and still be mobile, while it lasted.

            For you information, I did see a chiro just over 33 years ago for my back pain, before I knew what nonsense it is. I can thank the chiro for only one thing, injuring my ruptured disc enough that I had to see a neurosurgeon who has given me a painfree life, courtesy of his medical skills with a scalpel.

            “Using jardiance to treat diabetes is almost as stupid as cutting someones stomach in half to treat obesity.”

            Well fatboy, you don’t seem to have taken the advice you dispense to others.

            “to treat a self inflicted condition (for the most part)”

            No mirrors in your house?

            It has been said before, however, I will repeat it; chiros are stupid.

    • WB said:

      I will never understand why we, as patients, have to choose a “side” for our health. Both the medical and chiropractic professions have certain places in health.

      What place do you believe chiropractic has in healthcare? Please feel free to substantiate any claims with robust evidence.

      • In my response as a whole, I was referencing the treatments and techniques that are also used by physical therapist and osteopaths that are exactly alike. If chiropractors are wrong to do this, then so are they and should be the focus of this criticism too. They need to be review as well.

        As a woman, I am skeptically of male doctors who use “all in your head” and “placebo” as reasons just because they don’t accept patient’s responses to different treatments. Male doctors historically have not understood the female body.

      • Short Answer:
        The place chiropractic has in healthcare that I was referring to was patient’s choice. There is a good amount of patients who chose this care* and feel there is benefits from it. Patient’s voices should carry weight and not be dismissed by being told they don’t understand their body when they are the ones living in their body. I am a patient’s choice advocate.

        Long Answer:
        If you are looking for specific medical studies, that’s not really my lane. I’m sure there are more qualified people who can provide a response and the ensuing debate. I’ll let them do that. There are probably other threads you can jump on to get a better debate. So if you are looking for that I don’t have an answer for you but that wasn’t really my perspective when I came across the post.

        My lane was more along the lines of the article and critical thinking. I’m looking at this post stepping back, bigger picture as a whole. I’m just pondering.

        The way I ingested the article was points #2, 4, 7, 9, 10, 11, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 can be applied to all doctors: medical, dental, vision, etc, so they (to me as the reader) are mute points. All fields have the goods and the bads. No field is completely spotless and clean.

        Point #6: Every patient should be encouraged to get 2nd opinions regardless of the issue so they can make the healthcare decision that is best for them.

        In my opinion, all of the points I listed above can be trimmed from the article.

        Points #1, 3, 5, 8, 12 are the meat of the post but are limited in scope. The structure of the argument would be better if focused on the: 1) treatment and therapies individually, 2) listed the professions that use it, 3) why they are all wrong because there is no medical evidence for it, and 4) why the fields should all be discontinued.

        Just some of the overlaps from chiropractic to other fields to name a few are:

        Physical Therapy – spinal and extremity manipulation, manual therapy, low level light therapy, hot/cold therapy, ultrasound, traction, and rehabilitation exercises

        Doctors of Osteopaths – spinal and extremity manipulation, prevention not just relief from pain or disease, encourage the bodies’ self healing through manipulation, has stated that osteopathic manipulative treatment can offer relief from asthma, sinus disorders, carpal tunnel syndrome and migraines.

        Doctors of Integrative Medicine/Functional Medicine – can use herbal supplements over medication, acupuncture, mind/body/soul approach

        Medical Doctor – recommended using fish oil instead of Lipitor or Crestor for cholesterol in order to not subscribe a prescription (personal experience but was the MD wrong to do this?)

        Instead of singling out chiropractors, the argument would be better supported if the treatment and therapies were the focus first and then addressed ALL of the professions that use these treatments.

        By using the same treatment/therapies, it follows that they must subscribe to the mindset that there is medical evidence especially if the state laws allow it under their license and their boards require knowledge of it. It would also broaden the argument and give more voices for evidence for or against it from different fields.

        MY CONCLUSION:
        Pondering this article with medical history (and human history*** in general) makes me walk away with the conclusion that this article is an incomplete argument.

        ——————————————————————————————————————-

        *The word ‘care’ is used as all fields that practice similar techniques/treatments as chiropractors do: physical therapy, osteopaths, integrative medicine/functional medicine doctors.

        ***Humans historically have fought change/ideas/stances they couldn’t comprehend. It still goes on today in other areas (ie healthcare and gun control in America). This stance may be seen as outdated in 25 years, more funds may be applied to research, research methods might not be adequate today and new methods may be discovered, etc.

        ——————————————————————————————————————

        So….I’ve already spent more time than I wanted to on this post. I’m just putting observations and critique of the article out there and letting them sit. I’m not going to engage in a debate so please don’t expect that. I’ve read the article, put my thoughts online, and will be moving on with my life.

        • @WB on Thursday 22 February 2018 at 18:42

          “Short Answer:
          The place chiropractic has in healthcare that I was referring to was patient’s choice. There is a good amount of patients who chose this care* and feel there is benefits from it. Patient’s voices should carry weight and not be dismissed by being told they don’t understand their body when they are the ones living in their body. I am a patient’s choice advocate.”

          Relativism doesn’t apply to medicine, not that it applies to anything else either. What next, voting for which healthcare should be available?

          The rest of the post is so delusional as to not warrant a response.

      • @Bjorn: whoa ? man! After reading your post I just bought 6 Chiropractic-adjustments for my ex-wife and her attorney !! It’s going to be a lot easier than drowning or pushing them out a window!

      • @Trent: you give yourself WAY too much credit suggesting you are; “confused by only ONE thing”. Clearly your entire cortex is confused and refuses to cooperate with the real world.
        I spent almost a decade married to a DC and spent much time and many weekends immersed in the Tom Foolery….and recognize you are a typical simpleton and an archetype Chiropractor.
        That you (being a DC) even bother to take umbrage to comments here and feel confident enough to try to offer counterpoint gives us (more than) a glimpse into the egoism that is necessary to be a Chiropractor. But like religious zealots throughout history you too are probably willing to bear with upside down crucifixion in order to prove your devotion? To money of course.

        • I am not surprised he/she divorced you.

          • I am not surprised you would make such a comment. As Forrest said, ‘stupid is as stupid does’.

          • @ Trench: Yes, no surprise after I learned that Chiropractors can only stay married to those with IQs lower than theirs…which would have required me having half my brain removed.
            She did marry another Chiropractor so they live in an idyllic world of rhetoric, delusion and hyper-mobile spinal joints.

          • @Michael Kenny on Friday 02 March 2018 at 18:05

            “@ Trench: Yes, no surprise after I learned that Chiropractors can only stay married to those with IQs lower than theirs…which would have required me having half my brain removed.
            She did marry another Chiropractor so they live in an idyllic world of rhetoric, delusion and hyper-mobile spinal joints.”

            Oh, the horror. you have my utmost sympathies, and 10 years. You must have the patience of a saint.

  • @trent:
    excepting your trying to be an (ineffectual) gadfly (or perhaps a botfly), how do you not know to look to Dr. Bogduk for the pith on “facet” syndrome (he admonishes on the use of the term facet, but you know that I’m sure…)?
    A facet syndrome is a pointless, last-bastion of refuge for Chiroquakers and other manual self-aggrandizers.
    Even IF such a thing were real…how does it intersect with the myriad of entrepreneurial-theatrics expounded by DCs?? Whacking on an already inflamed structure? That’s a good thing? THAT should be the basis for the 123 year old fraud profession?
    And of the millions of saps (patients) going to DCs, how many have a “diagnostically relevant” condition for the nonsense they sell? Even IF it’s a “facet”? Hypo-mobility has NO valid or reliable indicators past the ego of the practitioner. And why would whackin make it “move”?
    So perhaps we could agree; IF a DCs manipulation COULD have an effect, and IF a hypo-mobile “facet” could be provably shown to be the pain-source….then yes, a Chiropractor might have a purpose.
    Problem is the IFs are too frigging big.

  • @Trent: what exactly is a “Chiropractic adjustment”?
    And how could “it” ever be evaluated vs any medical care since it is a wide-open foray into the world of entrepreneurship? Look up “manipulation criteria”….it’s nowhere in science….but then look up: an Activator, an Arthro-stim, Pro-adjuster, SOT blocks, toggle-recoil, Thompson-Drop, Pierce C5 slam, Keck adjustment, Blair adjustment, Grostic, Gonstead, Diversified (Jense), NUCCA, Orthogonality……Do they ALL do the same thing? Do they share one wit of common “diagnosis” past the practitioners ego and caprice? Do they ALL “Correct” facet syndrome effectively and reproducibly? And do you have the holy writ that reveals WHICH one works best and WHEN it should be used?
    “Chiropractic” is a quagmire of lies, hyperbole and self-aggrandizement. Saying “can you show medical care works better than Chiropractic adjustments” is proof of your logical void.

    • I have no problem agreeing that there are snake oil salesman in the chiropractic profession. I can also state that there are snake oil salesman in the medical profession. Or literally just drug dealers in the medical profession, because they go to jail for this quite often. I have no issue stating that the medical system is necessary. There are times when emergency care is necessary. There is times when pain medications are necessary. There are times when surgical intervention are necessary. There are also very many times when these treatment options are pushed before they are really necessary. But no profession is perfect. I am good with it. I will agree, activator protocol is a joke. Pro adjuster, SOT, toggle, not even sure what 5 slam is, or who blair is. I do not research snake oils and i understand why they can be scrutinized. I also know why antacid medication should be scrutinized. or Statins, water pills, pain meds, etc all have a pretty serious neck on the guillotine, but no one talks about it. The medical world scream for scientific research. Blah, show me scientific research that statins do not increase the chances of developing diabetes. you cant. But you can see how statins lower choloesterol, yep. You can effectively treat an asymptomatic condition like hypercholesterolemia. which is a made up condition by the same people that sell a drug to treat it. Show me scientific research how cholesterol is the cause of heart disease, and statins prevent it. Show me scientific research that type 2 diabetes is not treatable with lifestyle changes. You cant. But you are ok with pushing insulin at these people, making zero change to their diet/activity levels.

      You have spent a lot of time discussing how facet syndrome is not a real thing, yet there are a wide range of medical treatments that are being used regularly to treat this condition that you apparently do not believe in. Is this ok with you?

      When you quote me, please do not take it out of context. I clearly stated a few of the widely known medical treatments for facet syndrome. Do you have empirical evidence that these treatments are effectively treating facet syndrome?

      I have provided scientific research of what facet syndrome is. It is widely known that facet syndrome creates a subjective complaint in patients. I have presented research of how the High velocity, low amplitude adjustment, NOT activator, not SOT, or any of the other things you mentioned that do not provide a quick impulse of motion into a segment, affects the mechanoreceptors of the facet joint. There is also research of how the subjective complaint goes away after the specific chiropractic treatment.

      I want to see the research that clearly shows that a facet block effectively treats facet syndrome. I want to see your scientific research that pain medication, or muscle relaxers treat facet syndrome. these are treatment options that are commonly used. Even though you state there is no such thing, the medical world is treating it daily.

      • What is it with those with poor critical thinking skills always pointing to bad behavior to rationalize other bad behavior? O yeah, it’s called poor critical thinking skills. Tu Quoque
        Since the ONLY accepted standard (and it’s still open to debate) for “facet syndrome” is a dual lidocaine block (administered by MDs) it’s dubious as to which “evidence” you are appealing to determining HVLA thrusting on an irritated joint is a great intervention(?). And WHY? Mechanoreceptors? Is that the best ya’ got? 18 minute cortical silent period then what? Oh yes INNATE is awoken and Jesus arises….
        And, as I asked previously; where prey-tell do you get the honor of knowing all of your “lesser” compatriots are using techniques that are “jokes”? Is there a “Chiropractic GOLD Technique standard” you have access to proven by some evidence somewhere?
        Since motion-palpation to find “target-subluxations” (or fixations or whatever…) is a real joke….you just apply your HVLA trust on whatever hurts? Or do you rely on AK and leg checks?? Don’t painful facets often improve via force-closure tests i.e. muscle contraction-bracing…..thus VERY suggestive of hyper-mobility? So thrust harder? Softer? Activator?
        Your lofty position in your profession allows you to trump Arlan Fuhr or Chris’s Colloca or the innumerable other Technique gurus you dismiss-out-of-hand as “jokes” with facile disrespect? Not that they aren’t mind you, nor do they deserve respecting …..but it seems to me you’re in a glass house with a bazooka.

        • And at the end of your perfect, troll worthy bullshit. You provide zero evidence that was requested.

          You say lidocaine is the only accepted treatment, yet pain medication is the gold standard with every follow up patient I receive as a referral from MDs that do not have their head in their rear or an ego that can not be broken.

          Yes, mechanoreceptors. That is what the hvla affects. Have you ever burned your arm? You rub it. Similar concept.

          All in All. Cool. Dismiss a therapy proven to be effective on low back pain and continue to press for more opioid prescriptions. More customers is the key, right?

          To quote sir Edward. Cherio.

          • Have you ever burned your arm? You rub it.

            Strewth!!

            You rub all you want: I run for the nearest cold tap and immerse the burn in cool water. When the pain has reduced I cover the burn in plastic film. Only a complete idiot (or a chiropractor) would rub it.

          • Your ability to take things out of context is wildly impressive

          • @trent mozingo on Saturday 24 February 2018 at 18:17

            “Your ability to take things out of context is wildly impressive”

            Your ability to write something stupid, be taken to task and then claim wrong context is far more ‘impressive’, though it is expected from chiros, particularly those who subscribe to this nonsense;
            Chiropractic is a science, art and philosophy. The philosophy of chiropractic is built upon the constructs of vitalism, holism, conservatism, naturalism and rationalism. It provides context for the application of science and art.
            Chiropractic posits that subluxation of the spinal column and other articulations can affect nervous system function and the expression of health, which may result in symptoms, infirmity and disease.

  • What a terrific response! Direct, responsive and perspicacious! Clearly you are worthy of the title Doctor-of-Chiropractic! Congratulations.

  • @Trent: since your obvious pecuniary bias, self-aggrandizement and religious affectation towards this buffoonery which you call a profession has mitigated your perception of the world and “manipulation’s” place in it it’s of no surprise to anyone with an actual college education that you are unable to accept or understand viable and well-reasoned criticism. You are just another harbinger of another ‘religious tradition’….yours being Chiropractic. I’d be curious as to what argument-strategies you would employ when “proving” the Chiropractic theatrics’ you deem to be a “joke” ?
    Without of course smashing your own face in with the same hammer….I beliveve of course your arguments would be identical to your dissenters on this blog.
    As to your argument regarding “facet syndrome” as THE shibboleth of your profession…..
    An arena lucratively exploited by the likes of Activator and other “guns” you deem jokes. THEY also monkey-with-mechanoreceptors….just like you claim to. They claim superiority to manual means….and just like you, with no real evidence.
    I’ll ask again: What criteria do you use to decide on how to treat a “facet syndrome”? Additionally how could you support yourself, your office, your staff etc etc ONLY whacking on a facet once or twice in the minuscule population that may have one…? Endless criticism of medicine (or more accurately; the body’s idiopathic issues) as far as I can tell isn’t a valid “subluxation-detector….is it?
    Perhaps you can read this research:
    Systematic review of tests to identify the disc, SIJ or facet joint as the source of low back pain
    M. J. Hancock, C. G. Maher, […], and N. Bogduk
    “None of the tests for facet joint pain were found to be informative. The results of this review demonstrate that tests do exist that change the probability of the disc or SIJ (but not the facet joint) as the source of low back pain. However, the changes in probability are usually small and at best moderate. The usefulness of these tests in clinical practice, particularly for guiding treatment selection, remains unclear”.
    Bogduk proposes that the dual-lidocaine block (though still open to debate) is the only normative TEST standard available….NOT treatment. Laslett suggests Kemp’s test, when negative may be highly specific as to non-involvement of the low back “joints”. However treatment recommendations are not forthcoming…..excepting from the Illuminati like yourself and your profession. Undoubtedly from either dreams, seances, motion-palpation, AK, leg checks or arrogance. The latter being in the top spot.

  • I love this post! Chiropractic care is a great way to naturally treat pain, especially for patients suffering from sciatica. In addition to this post, I found the article below to be very helpful resource.

  • Great post and I could not agree more with point #2 “Many chiropractors promise too much.”

    Thanks!

  • The doctors that write this negative stuff about chiropractors are the real quacks especially the guy responsible for the quackwatch website. He is the biggest crackpot out there. I think he had his medical license suspended at one point in time. That should say something.

    • the author of the post is a chiro!
      who’s the crackpot now?

      • General consensus of this entire biased garbage site:

        Pro-chiropractic chiropractor=idiot, quack, moron, etc

        Crirical-chiropractic chiropractor=genius, honest, logical, scientific, supported

        Pro-medicine MD: genius, honest, logical, scientific, supported.

        Critical-medicine MD: idiot, quack, moron, etc.

    • I think he had his medical license suspended at one point in time. That should say something.

      Think again.

    • @Lawrence Kahn on Sunday 08 April 2018 at 17:22

      What it says, Lawrie, is that you are an ignoramus, willing to spread rumours for which there is no basis.

      Now, if we want to refer attention to a real quack, one needs look no further than you.

      http://westendchirocenter.com/wp/?page_id=2

      “About Us (Despite it only being you)
      Dr. Lawrence Kahn was born and raised in Merrick, New York. He received his undergraduate degree from the State University of New York at New Paltz. He received his Doctor of Chiropractic Degree from Sherman College of Chiropractic in Spartanburg, South Carolina. He received his Doctor of Naturopathy degree from Clayton College in Birmingham, Alabama. Dr. Kahn opened the West End Chiropractic Center in Sciota, Pennsylvania in 1988 and has been a part of this close knit Pocono community for the past twenty nine years.

      Dr. Kahn’s approach to Chiropractic is one of Subluxation correction. A Subluxation is a bone of the spine or a vertebra that has moved out of its normal position and is causing pressure on a spinal nerve. This can lead to symptoms and ultimately illness. We believe that an individual who is experiencing Subluxation cannot express perfect health and therefore cannot live life to the fullest. Dr. Kahn is also a Naturopathic Physician. His specialty in Naturopathic Medicine is Laser Acupuncture, Laser Homeopathy, Laser Smoking Cessation and Laser Allergy Elimination. We are one of the few practices in Northeastern PA. that treat allergies with laser and help people stop smoking with laser. It is very effective and has helped many people.”

      No one, not even most chiros, believes in the mythical subluxation. A challenge for you, Lawrie; provide evidence of the existence of a subluxation, any will do. As one hasn’t been found for 123 years, I think the work will be cut out for you.

      *****Prof, why do I not receive email notifications of responses?

  • Here’s my tuppence worth:
    I’m a 70 year old man and have visited chiropractors on four occasions in my life, all for lower back pain. First time was about 20 years ago and i ‘put my back out’ doing something innocuous. obviously I had done something because I was in pain and movement (bending or stretching or walking ) was painful. I had trouble getting in and out of my car, sitting and it was very uncomfortable. Cut to the chase I went to see a chiropractor who operated from a small chemists shop. He had some weird equipment. Applying some kind of suction pads to my back which he said would relax my back muscles and allow him to get to work on my back. After about 30 minutes on the table he finally started rocking ame and , yes there was a ‘click’. When he finished and I stood up it was as if I was reborn, no pain, free movement, best £40 I ever spent. He urged me to make more appointments but I never did and I had five years before I did it again.
    He was gone (retired died or bankrupt, who knows) so I went to another.
    This fellow operated out of his private house. He was a man of few words. He put me on the table, pressed my spine in various place and told me I had three vertebrae out of alignment. He then rocked me in the time hnoured fashion and ‘click’, other side ‘ click’ one more ‘click. Job done pain free all mobility restored (£45 this time)
    Next time it was a lady chiropractor and obviously, as a method of making a living the business had taken on a more ‘professional appearance…you know appointment systems…asssessment sessions, treatment plans etc etc. So I didnt get a result until I had paid out around £100. She didnt manipulate but used more massaging techniques and ‘special’ oils and unguents. I did improve but it didnt quite feel as effective as the previous sessions.
    Fast forward to 3 weeks ago. Bingo, back gone again! Seek help. Now I find were in the realms and trappings of a growing industry. Fancy clinic, free coffee (first visit) Receptionist, ‘physiotherapist’ wandering around, soft music. This is going to be a rip off flashing from every aspect. Ok I’m here, i’m in agony lets do it. I should mention that I had to wait 11 days for an appointment, so I’m hoping for some relief.
    Now I’m filling out forms, all very nice but basically bullshit (ding ding rip off ! meter to red!) eventually the hero and ‘lead practitioner’ escorts me to his consulting room. He informs me (not asks) that an observer will be in attendance. I dont actually care, so just nod and tell him OK. The assessment consists of him wiggling my head (I tell him its my lower back that hurts) twists me one way then the other. ‘Does that hurt?’ etc etc. Then a scrutiny of my form. ‘Hmm, you should eat more fruit, drink more water, try and excercise’. ‘OK walkover here, walk there, stand here’ ‘Your 10 kg heavier on your right side’.
    ‘OK what we need to do now is take some xrays whicjh will mean you come back tomorrow’.
    ‘ Are you going to do anything to relieve my pain?’ I ask. ‘No no no, not yet, need to see the problems areas, bone density’, etc etc blah blah. ‘Have a nice day’
    £60 extracted from my credit card, appointment made for Saturday morning for xray. Xray done by his ‘associate’ on a second hand xray machine (surplus from some cottage hospital that had been closed no doubt) Two very hazy xrays and £ 60 later Im out on the street. Me and my bad back and light wallet. I have an appointment for next Tuesday (another weekend of pain) I’m in this far I am curious to see what he can do. But he’ll do it on Tuesday or I aint leaving. Interestingly enough I seen all these posters about ‘subluxations’ and ‘pre payment plans’ and walls filled with certificates and diplomas from various ‘institutions’. So far im unimpressed, I wish I could fin the man with the suction apparatus

  • Holy heck, this is fascinating. I have no interest in visiting a chiropractor (I prefer evidence-based medicine, thanks), but this book looks like it would be full of gems. I know this post is 5 years old, so it might be a bit outdated by now, but think I’m gonna check it out anyway. If its half as entertaining as this post, it’ll be money well spent.

    And I have to say that the very first comment, in which Blue Wde includes a quote from Preston’s book (“The head of the Biology Department used the word “pacific” to refer to specific microorganisms.”) pretty much seals the deal for me. That is hilarious, and I’m really not even surprised. When I was an undergrad, my friend’s older brother was studying to be a chiropractor. I remember meeting him and thinking, wow, this guy is really attractive…but he’s as dumb as a box of rocks.” He graduated about a year after I first met him. I wonder how that worked out for him…

  • Chiropractic care helps relieve headaches, neck pain and more!

    [link to spam website disabled by Admin]

    • evidence please!

    • It’s spam. The business being advertised is in the USA but the commenter is in India. That’s the second spam comment from that business today.

    • @John Slater on Thursday 06 September 2018 at 13:46

      Below are some of the wacky ‘treatments’ John is supporting at this (https://correctivechiropractic.com/our-chiropractic-techniques/) joint;

      [QUOTE]We use a number of highly-effective adjusting approaches to help improve spinal biomechanics and reduce nervous system interference. The approach we use is based on the latest scientific research, as well as years of experience in the field.

      The primary adjusting techniques we use include:

      CBP (Clinical Biomechanics of Posture)
      Also known as Chiropractic BioPhysics is effective in producing improved posture, spinal alignment, and restoration of essential spinal curves with traditional chiropractic manipulation which focuses on rehabilitation exercise, unique spinal traction. This technique overall goal is to correct or normalized posture. CBP technique is currently the most evidenced-based or most researched than other forms of chiropractic technique.

      Chiropractors often require x-ray examination drawing some lines to pinpoint the root cause of spine misalignment to help plan the appropriate and pain-free series of adjustments to be made, exercises to be done and spinal remodeling program to help you achieve the overall normalized posture for a better health.

      Thompson Terminal Point Technique atlanta-chiropractor-adjusting-room
      Also known as the Thompson Drop Table Technique is a system of analysis that uses a special table that reduces the amount of energy needed to adjust your spine. This technique was originated by Dr. J. Clay Thompson and has proven results — widely used by almost all chiropractors over the world. The segmental drop table is composed of segmented parts or drops pieces that adjust up or down by fraction or inch, depending on the fastness or the impact of the thrust chiropractor put into during adjustment. This keeps the patient secure in the place without experiencing pain during the process of adjustment.

      Derifield-Thompson Leg-Check Analysis (done in the first stage) where chiropractors identify the disparity of the leg-length of the patient while lying in prone position. This helps detect underlying neurological imbalance together with other suitable test and x-rays to further aid what treatment should be done or specific area to be adjusted.

      Gonstead Technique
      This was developed and introduced by Clarence Selmer Gonstead. We conduct a thorough evaluation using full spine X-rays and a heat-sensing instrument for accurate adjustments. Gonstead focuses on pain relief in secondary (pelvic and sacral) subluxations which are not located in the spine. This is considered as the expansion of standard Diversified Technique which only focuses on the back.

      Diversified Technique
      This hands-on technique is the most common used by chiropractors which applies a high-velocity, low-amplitude thrust to relieve pains. Corrective Chiropractors conduct physical examination first to locate the affected area and its severity of injuries or misalignments. After identifying which spinal bones have lost their normal motion or position, a specific manual thrust is administered to free up “stuck” joints. This technique is known to have no side-effects and used to treat neck pain, sciatica, scoliosis, tennis elbow, tendonitis, repetitive motion injuries, etc.

      Pettibon Technique
      The Pettibon System is a process of assessing the patient and then performing a specific rehabilitation program to correct your spine and posture. This chiropractic technique’s mission is to realign the spine so it can optimally function in an upright position relative to gravity using the Pettibon Weighting System.

      Light-Force Technique
      Is a method of applying ounces of pressure along the spine and using a handheld device called an Activator instrument to relax the body and release tension on the nerves. As this relaxes the muscles, it helps cause the misaligned bone to adjust to its proper position so your body can come to the optimal state. This technique is more recommended for newborn, children, elderly, sensitive, etc.[/QUOTE]

  • This was a pretty interesting piece although I enjoyed the comment string more than the article itself. Thanks for the read 🙂

  • 90% of what this book talks about is quack garbage. It talks about a chiropractor sticking his fingers in a woman’s vagina like that reflects chiropractors as a whole. Do you know how many quack MDs have been caught doing the same or worse? This is clearly a peice attempting to stereotype chiropractors as unqualified idiots in an attempt to get you to go see a doctor and get filled up with meds that deal with symptoms and not the cause of the problem like chiropractors do. I had terrible back pain for years from work and scoliosis and I’ve been to medical doctors many times and they just gave me muscle relaxers, anti inflammatorirs, pain killers ect which only helped relieved the pain until I ran out and caused damage to my liver and kidneys. All while bouncing me back and fourth to different specialists costing my insurance thousands and thousands of dollars and never even really attempted to get to the route of the problem. I started seeing a chiropractor and after a couple adjustments I haven’t dealt with any back pain ever again. Doctors and the medical industry have lots of motive to discredit chiropractic care to protect their very lucrative business of treating symptoms. Half the people here are asking why chiropractors haven’t proven their care works but most want studies done and are the ones pushing to have research done but no medical doctors or scientists will fund peer reviewed studies to be done because they have nothing to gain and everything to lose from proving the benifits of chiropractic care. To those people I ask you the same question. Why hasn’t anyone been able to prove chiropractic care is NOT an effective pain management solution? Why has their only been few studies done, the majority showing positive results in favor of chiropractic care, while not taking interest to more main stream researchers? Anyone who reads this book or even the description and can’t see what a blatant attempt to discredit and defame chiropractors at any cost this is are a special kind of stupid. Comparing chiropractic care to a quack out there curing cancer with a box and yellow light while their are plenty of quack mds throughout history who have believed and tried much more unorthodox, inaccurate techniques but you don’t say medical doctors attract strange people with made up beliefs. Remember to check your sources with actual peer reviewed scientific studies because the author who wrote this is obviously in the medical doctor’s pocket.

    • @ ‘Dr’ Daniel Donovan M.D. on Tuesday 13 November 2018 at 00:03

      Danny,
      I, for one, am not convinced your are an MD at all. You write like a chiro, in a jumbled, incoherent mess with no regard for paragraphing or other grammatical niceties.

      I suspect you are a shifty chiro masquerading as a real doctor. If, however, you can prove I’m wrong, please let me know where you practise, so I can avoid it like the plague.

      • Pretty weak response there Frankie.

        • Pretty weak response there Frankie.

          Maybe you could give us an example of a better reaction. I am always eager to learn. How does one respond adequately to a badly written meaningless rant, except by pointing out that very fact?

          • Well, Barty,

            He can start with minimizing his over the top effort to be condescending. That is the issue with this hack-job blog, there is no conversation, there is only talk in one direction. Which Daniel pointed out very clearly. He also pointed out very clearly why there is minimal research that you toolsheds are looking for. Same reason there is minimal research that pharmaceuticals actually do anything more than manipulate the human body to subside symptoms. Are you aware that the leading cause of liver failure in the US is due to drug induced liver injury?

            Instead of doing his best to point out grammatical errors, ole frankie could acknowledge the information given, but that doesn’t fit the biased narrative of the entire conversation. Ha.

            The rant has meaning, just not to an idiot with a predetermined bias against the conversation. Ole frankie couldn’t start the conversation by discrediting Daniel’s education, so he just decided to call him a liar. Pretty classy really. Ha. What a joke.

          • “One of the most striking feature of the debates about alternative medicine is, in my experience, the fact that, whenever the defenders of the indefensible ran out of rational arguments, personal attacks are rarely far. Personal or ad hominem attacks are fallacious arguments directly directed at a named individual which serve as substitutes for that individual’s arguments. In football terminology, they play the player instead of the ball.”

            You are correct Ed. Frankie did this very thing. Just in the opposite direction of Bart’s biased view, so he chose not to see it.

          • so he just decided to call him a liar

            Except of course, that Frank did not do that. He is talking explicitly about suspicions. It is extremely easy to show that these suspicions are erroneous. All “Dr. Daniel Donovan M.D.” has to do is demonstrate that he is who he claims to be. As Frank pointed out, there are good reasons to doubt it. That’s not “ad hominem”, it is simply sound reasoning. So, prove that Frank is wrong for all to see, and win this round. Good, eh?

          • You are absolutely wrong Bart. Daniel has no reason to “prove” who he is. Frankie does not get to assume he is lying on any circumstance. Your bias is undeniable. There is no reason to prove innocence. It is innocent until proven guilty. Are you saying that Frank as empirical reasoning to assume Daniel is not an MD? No, he does not. You should read the book, Pre-Suasion. He makes a nice point in the chapter, What is Focal is Causal. You already have a predetermined outcome of a conversation before it is had. Same with ole frankie boy. or Girl. eh?

          • Daniel has no reason to “prove” who he is. Frankie does not get to assume he is lying on any circumstance. Your bias is undeniable. There is no reason to prove innocence. It is innocent until proven guilty.

            Interesting. Repeating a lie does not turn it into the truth. Frank is not assuming that he is lying. He is suspecting it. If you don’t know the difference, the fault is not Frank’s.

            You are claiming Daniel has no reason to prove who he is. Maybe not. I cannot look in his head. Also, no one is asking him to prove he is innocent, so that is a non-issue.

            What I do know, is that he is not giving us any good reason to believe him. In my opinion, that is a jolly good reason not to believe him.

  • Dr. Daniel Donovan M.D. wrote on Tuesday 13 November 2018 at 00:03 : “Half the people here are asking why chiropractors haven’t proven their care works but most want studies done and are the ones pushing to have research done but no medical doctors or scientists will fund peer reviewed studies to be done because they have nothing to gain and everything to lose from proving the benifits [sic] of chiropractic care.”

    @ Dr. Daniel Donovan M.D.

    Biostatistician, R. Barker Bausell PhD, a research methods expert who served for five years as Research Director of the University of Maryland’s NIH-funded Complementary Medicine Program (now called the Center for Integrated Medicine), concluded, after dissecting the published evidence for CAM (a $2.5 billion spend, apparently): “No CAM therapy has a scientifically plausible biochemical mechanism of action over and above those proposed for the placebo effect…nothing more than cleverly packaged placebos.”
    Ref. https://tinyurl.com/yayu3f8o

    Interestingly, in 2009 (shortly after the publication of Bausell’s book, Snake Oil Science: The truth about Complementary and Alternative Medicine), the ‘Foundation for Chiropractic Education and Research’ decided on self-liquidation and filed for bankruptcy…
    Ref. http://www.dynamicchiropractic.com/mpacms/dc/article.php?id=54144

    However, at the same time, the chiropractic marketing group, the ‘Foundation for Chiropractic Progress’, received a record pledge of support of several hundred thousand dollars:
    Ref. http://chiro.org/wordpress/2009/09/29/what-are-our-priorities/

    No prizes for guessing why the money wasn’t diverted to chiropractic research especially as, four years later, an audit found that Medicare spent $359 million on unnecessary chiropractic in one year alone:
    Ref. https://tinyurl.com/y9mgx8kg

    Dr. Daniel Donovan M.D. wrote: “To those people I ask you the same question. Why hasn’t anyone been able to prove chiropractic care is NOT an effective pain management solution?”

    Haven’t you read the most recent Cochrane systematic review on spinal manipulation for back pain? It’s pretty damning…

    “[Spinal Manipulative Therapy] is no more effective in participants with acute low-back pain than inert interventions, sham SMT, or when added to another intervention. SMT also appears to be no better than other recommended therapies.”
    Ref: https://tinyurl.com/y9bkxuf6

    As for neck pain, chiropractic manipulation has a decidedly unfavourable risk/benefit profile:
    Ref: https://edzardernst.com/2017/08/new-review-confirms-neck-manipulations-are-dangerous/

    And as for chiropractor-authored studies, which almost invariably arrive at positive conclusions, it’s worth reading ‘Sources of bias in reviews of spinal manipulation for back pain’:

    “…outcomes of reviews of this subject are strongly influenced by both scientific rigour and profession of authors. The effectiveness of spinal manipulation for back pain is less certain than many reviews suggest; most high quality reviews reach negative conclusions.”
    Ref: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15989112?dopt=Abstract&holding=f1000,f1000m,isrctn

    FYI, here are some examples of chiropractor bias:

    GERT BRONFORT DC

    “Bronfort’s overview was commissioned by the General Chiropractic Council, it was hastily compiled by ardent believers of chiropractic, published in a journal that non-chiropractors would not touch with a barge pole, and crucially it lacks some of the most important qualities of an unbiased systematic review. In my view, it is nothing short of a white-wash and not worth the paper it was printed on. Conclusions, such as the evidence regarding pneumonia, bed-wetting and otitis is inconclusive are just embarrassing; the correct conclusion is that the evidence fails to be positive for these and most other indications.”
    Ref: https://edzardernst.com/2013/08/evidence-based-chiropractic-is-an-oxymoron/

    And yet Bronfort is currently lead investigator for research into back pain that’s been given a $11.2 million grant:
    Ref: http://www.mndaily.com/article/2017/10/university-to-use-11-2-million-grant-to-research-back-pain

    CHRISTINE GOERTZ DC

    “This trial follows the infamous ‘A+B versus B’ design. It will almost always generate a positive result – so much so that it is a waste of time to run the study because we know its findings before it has started. And if this is so, the trial is arguably even unethical.”
    Ref: https://tinyurl.com/yc387mgn

    And yet Goertz is Vice Chair-person of the Patient-Centered Outcomes Research Institute (PCORI), an independent non-profit organisation, which has allocated $5.7 million to fund “a study of access to holistic therapies for treating low back pain, including massage, acupuncture, osteopathy, chiropractic…”
    Ref: https://www.massagemag.com/holistic-therapies-alternative-opioids-86376/

    JAN HARTVIGSEN DC

    Hartvigsen had a major research role in the recent Lancet Back Pain series of papers which were met with severe criticism:

    Ref: https://tinyurl.com/y7bd6lna
    Ref: https://tinyurl.com/y8e48oq7
    Ref: https://tinyurl.com/yalash5x

    And yet, in March 2019, Hartvigsen is giving an address entitled ‘Lessons from The Lancet: Our Great Global Opportunity’ at a large chiropractic convention:
    Ref: https://tinyurl.com/ybzcue6x (p. 5)

    (It’s also worth noting that Goertz and Hartvigsen are members of the World Federation of Chiropractic’s Research Council.)

    Dr. Daniel Donovan M.D. wrote: “Anyone who reads this book or even the description and can’t see what a blatant attempt to discredit and defame chiropractors at any cost this is [sic] are a special kind of stupid.”

    Have you read the book?

  • @Trench: a name-is-a-name….however an “MD” after that name is used, especially in the pointless dribble Danny-boy presented, as a means to potentiate his embarrassing piffle. There is no other reason to use it except to add the pretense that a “real doctor” can and will validate the fraud-of-Chiropractic.
    If he/she is a real-doctor, as suggested their practice information should be public so those who value their health can avoid him/her “like the plague”.

    • You are trying pretty hard there Michael. Kudos for effort.

      • @trent mozingo on Wednesday 14 November 2018 at 17:06

        I am surprised you think you can take a superior air given the nonsense on your website and the lie you use evidence-based treatments. If their is any credible evidence for anything you do, I, for one, would love to see it.

        Won’t hold my breath though, trenty.

        • Awe. You googled me. Thats adorable. Keep reading. You might learn a thing or two. Well, maybe, not sure you even have the capacity.

          Any chance that you will note my website on here? All traffic is good traffic. Ya know?

          I have a book coming out in a month or so too. I hope you get a copy. Pretty enlightening stuff really. Carry on.

      • @Trench: thank you. Knowing the effort a chiroquacker goes to, to consistently find gullible-marks, make up profound-sounding “evidence”, adjusting-theatrics, jargon and fake credentials suggesting “real-doctor” status….I take that as a compliment. As I’m sure you intended it.

  • @deeptrench: perhaps if you have the capacity you might look up the definition of ‘mocking’….and if your mother allows you a few extra minutes on her computer; facetious. Words (such as Doctor or healthcare)…actually have standardized meanings and denotations. As you write your book you should consider that.
    Perhaps if I use them in a sentence: “The MD referred to Trench as “Doctor” ….but everyone could tell he was just being facetious”….and “a DC degree makes a mockery out of a real doctorate-degree but their arrogance makes them unwilling and unable to recognize that fact”.
    I’m sure Stuart McGill and Dr. Bogduk are anxiously awaiting your profound insights if you are authoring a book regarding the human “back”……unless of course you’re delving into a more appropriate topic for a chiroquacker….a book of children’s fables?

    • Yes. you are facetious. Not sure if they teach that in medical school, or you just pick up some undeniable entitlement on your own. I still can not figure out why MDs are so hell bent on discrediting wholistic medicine. I am aware that hate is taught, so maybe this is the case. You dream to feel superior, maybe you need to see a psychologist about that. Not my specialty.

      Your anger is noted though. It is a little unsettling though. Life is too short to try and be a keyboard warrior. No real satisfaction can come from that.

      Maybe you should get a massage, reiki, or just talk to someone. A wise person once told me. It is a lonely feeling at the top of the mountain. Maybe this is where you have found yourself.

      My book is not about the human “back” . Wait. Why are their quotations around that word? are you implying the human “back” is theoretical?

      • I still can not figure out why MDs are so hell bent on discrediting wholistic medicine.

        This looks like sophisticated chiropractor jargon. Care to explain to this mere mortal what it means?

        • Does it mean that someone can’t spell “holistic”?

          • Back to google for you, MOJO.

          • Back to google for you, MOJO.

            I was hoping for an answer, not a mere reply to someone else. I am always eager to find out that chiropractors are not the idiots they so skillfully portray themselves as but – alas – they never fail to disappoint me. Well, at least, I can’t accuse them of lack of consistency in that respect.

          • I am not sure how to explain it to you. Are you not sure what wholistic means? Or what Medicine means? Or is it the combination of the words that stumped you?

          • I am not sure how to explain it to you. Are you not sure what wholistic means? Or what Medicine means? Or is it the combination of the words that stumped you?

            It seems that wholistic is a misspelling. That would certainly be consistent with the image of lack of education chiropractors so skillfully project. However, that clarification doesn’t solve much, since I wouldn’t really know what holistic medicine is. Medicine is holistic by its very nature.

            So, my question remains: what does this mean? Or am I looking for meaning where there is none?

          • Wholistic and holistic are both correct spellings. This is why i told MOJO to head back to google. It will quickly prove me correct. As I typically am. Unless, you idiots are better with word spelling than Merriam-Webster.

            https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/wholistic-word-origin-and-use

            “Medicine is holistic in nature”

            Um, no it is not. It is open to interpretation Now, if you look at the definition of medicine on merriam-webster you will see that it has several definitions.

            1 a : a substance or preparation used in treating disease

            1 b : something that affects well-being

            2 a : the science and art dealing with the maintenance of health and the prevention, alleviation, or cure of disease

            2 b : the branch of medicine concerned with the nonsurgical treatment of disease
            3 : a substance (such as a drug or potion) used to treat something other than disease
            4 : an object held in traditional American Indian belief to give control over natural or magical forces

          • I am enjoying this too much to insert a link and correct the imbecile.

            Bart, so true;
            “I am always eager to find out that chiropractors are not the idiots they so skillfully portray themselves as but – alas – they never fail to disappoint me.”

          • ‘Wholistic’ is a legitimate alternative spelling to the (more common) ‘holistic’.

            Doesn’t change the fact that medical practitioners already practise ‘holistic’ or ‘wholistic’ medicine and that exponents of pseudo-medicine are hell bent on misappropriating the term for their own dubious purposes.

            I doubt therefore that many MDs are hell bent on discrediting discrediting any form of evidence-based medicine. What they object to is pseudo-scientific practitioners who claim there are alternative ways in which the body works, and therefore different types of medicine..

          • Wholistic and holistic are both correct spellings.

            You could perhaps elaborate on that. Your attempt at justifying it looks like the explanations any apologist would give in attempts to make erroneous claims look as if they are correct. That, quite fortunately for those of us interested in it, isn’t the way reality works.

            Um, no it is not. It is open to interpretation Now, if you look at the definition of medicine on merriam-webster you will see that it has several definitions.

            That’s precisely what I mean. Science is not about using words that sort-of look superficially applicable. It is about the concepts that these words represent. There is a more than a minor difference between science and poetry using a thesaurus.

    • Ah, the human “back”… wonderful things come out of it at times!

      I still can not figure out why MDs are so hell bent on discrediting wholistic medicine. I am aware that hate is taught, so maybe this is the case.

      Mr. Palm, this is Mr. Forehead. Mr. Forehead, this is Mr. Palm*.

      *(Editor’s note: Read Palm, not Palmer)

      • Solid input. Thank you for taking the time to link WIKI, or even putting words in italics or bold that have no value.

        • @deeptrenchbazinga: combinations of words don’t stump rational adults as much as a portmanteau might. Such as Chiro-Practic. As a matter of fact it defies meaning. It is a mish-mosh of anything a DC decides they can do to swindle money from the gullible, ill-informed and logically-challlenged.
          Lived it for a decade being married to one and getting a holistic tour of the rotten inner sanctum.
          It was invented as a scam, developed as a scam and perpetuates as a whole-istic scam.
          As Dr.Seuss DC pointed out: “….stink, stank, stunk”.

          • I am sorry but you sound pretty bitter about your wife or male companion leaving you. It is ok to let your emotions control you, many do.

  • There are conditions chiropractic helps and conditions they don’t. I do question the alarmist concerns of chiropractic care being dangerous. Insurance companies never take a loss. The higher the risk the higher you pay. You may want to consider the premiums chiropractors pay compared to different medical specialties. You’ll find that chiropractors pay almost nothing relative to medical doctors. So what care is more dangerous?

    • “There are conditions chiropractic helps and conditions they don’t.”
      PLEASE NAME A FEW OF THE FORMER CATEGORY

    • @Mike, re: malpractice.
      You could look at it a bit more critically. Malpractice carriers don’t necessarily look at the risk vs. benefit ratio the way health-insurance companies do. Thus the malpractice is low simply due to the fact faffing about on backs (with the “training” a DC has AND the fact injuring your gullible, psychologically-malleable clientele is bad for repeat business) is overall just an irritating event…normally not rising to a malpractice-level.
      However the RVU (relative unit value, US Medicare determinate of payment) of “manipulation” (inclusive of the whacko Activator and adjusting-guns) is .4-.9. This is multiplied by the current, geographically-determined dollar value (~$38.00). Thus the “insurance value” of a single-level-manipulation is about $17.00. If the quack whacks 3-4 subluxations/levels the reimbursement is up to $35-40 thus the incentive (beyond their religious-dogma regarding whole-spine-alignment each visit to maximize “innate-flow”) is economically driven. The less greedy I may guess (whacking just one segment per visit) may have even fewer malpractice-cases(?). And an Activator DC I would speculate might have the least (excepting those that do the “non-touch” Techniques).
      Chiroquakers often try to conflate low malpractice-rates with BOTH low risk but also high-value. Nothing is further from the truth of course.

  • 20 years ago I developed chronic back pain, most likely due the job I had which involved continuous heavy lifting.
    I had many recommendations from friends to go and see a chiropractor. I went to my GP with the problem, he told me to get some xrays, try some anti-inflammatory tablets, gave me some practical advice on re organising my workshop and lifting methods to reduce back strain, he also told me to rest my back for some time and most importantly, he told me not to go to a chiropractor regardless of what my friends said, I doubt a doctor would say that these days, they would probably get sued.
    It was diagnosed as a herniated disc, which is common amongst people in my profession, my friends are still getting their backs cracked whereas I just have to remember what my doctor told me 20 years ago and don’t need to see a doctors anymore, and he didn’t even try to sell me any prescription drugs, what a loser.

  • @deeptreat: my ex and I get along wonderfully. My bitterness is that I helped put her through clown-college. I wish she had decided to be a cosmetologist instead. She could still be in a profession with a risk of stroking-out a customer…however at the end of a visit something would actually have been accomplished (for the client).
    And of course the public-shame, ridicule and humiliation of trying to explain to people: “well I’m not a real-doctor, I’m a chiroquacker….I diagnosis and fix non-existent spinal-fixations and nerve-pressure so as to release innate”
    …..is mitigated.

  • If chiropractic neck cracking was a drug, It would have been pulled from the market long ago.

    https://www.fda.gov/Drugs/DrugSafety/PostmarketDrugSafetyInformationforPatientsandProviders/ucm106290.htm

  • I went to a chiropractor on my own without a doctors recommendation and after two visits my mid back is in pain. Ive read online that soreness or aching is normal for about 24 hours after and adjustment. Its been well over two days and my back hurts. Thats not normal right? So, going by this guide I shouldnt even go to my third visit?

  • Well, I wish you had been a decent chiropractor. I wish, for the sake of your patients, that you had learned in school, or at least gone to a decent school. I feel sad for the people reading your trash. They hear that a chiropractor says chiropractic doesn’t work, so I should believe this person. Who failed in his profession and could not help people. What a shame. I agree that chiropractic is not for everyone. Not everyone needs a neurosurgeon or gynecologist. Those who do need a chiropractor, I hope find a good one who paid attention in school, learned in their practice, and actually cares about people. You are trying to sell your crappy book to people who know nothing different.
    @needanswers, you don’t need a doctor’s recommendation to see a chiropractor. Since we don’t know your history or why you went to see a chiropractor in the first place, no one here can tell you why your mid back is in pain after two days. Please ask your chiropractor. If they can explain, great. If not, know that there are over 200 techniques in chiropractic. Some are specific, some are less so. The quack writing this misinformation intended to slander an entire profession was a failure in the profession. If he failed, so should everyone else. Please take this BS with a grain of salt.

    • @DStewart

      Why do you think we need different versions of medicine? Do we need different versions of aviation? civil engineering? chemistry? biology? physics?

      If chiropractic could be shown to work (in robust, objective tests) it would become part of orthodox medicine. Because it doesn’t come up to this level of efficacy, it remains part of ‘alternative’ medicine, aka medicine done by cowboys.

      • “Why do you think we need different versions of medicine?”

        I woupd say the opioid crisis is a pretty strong reason.

        • How best then to handle the opioid crisis? Reiki? Homeopathy? Chiropractic? Reflexology? Herbalism? Please tell us which brand of snakeoil you think is most suitable and precisely how it will solve the opioid crisis.

          • Frank Odds asks ‘which brand of snake oil you think is most suitable and precisely how it will solve the opioid crisis’.

            Tricky one as not sure what snake oil translates to, but if the pharmaceutical company had not ‘encouraged’ doctors to heavily prescribe there would not be an epidemic. No search engine or YouTube was used in this post : I read an extract from a recent book on this subject in The Sunday Times in which I have forgotten a lot, but remember it said the pharmaceutical company had withdrawn the offending drug but had developed another fior doctors to prescribe to counteract the effects of the first one. Win,win for that company.

            Yes, Reiki, reflexology etc would have had at least a harm free effect, should any of these poor people now addicted, looked beyond the drug prescribed as the panacea for pain.

          • @Angela

            OK, written words can generate complications; agreed. If you want to think of ‘Big Pharma’ as vendors of ‘snake oil’ that’s your business and perfectly valid.

            Which cowboy practitioners in which branch of pseudo-, unscientific medicine do you think is most suitable to solve the opioid crisis? And do please read Dr Julian Money-Kyrle’s erudite and dispassionate response to this part of the thread.

            You seem to think that being ‘harm-free’ makes for good medicine. In reality it’s the benefit:risk ratio for a particular treatment that determines its value. Is being able to drive your car a good thing? Is it risk-free? (The ~1 million people who die on the world’s road each year are unable to answer.)

          • “I wonder how many of these medical error deaths are by chiropractors?”
            NONE OF THESE ERRORS ARE MADE BY DOCTORS WHO TREAT BACK PAIN AND SIMILARLY MILD CONDITIONS

          • “NONE OF THESE ERRORS ARE MADE BY DOCTORS WHO TREAT BACK PAIN AND SIMILARLY MILD CONDITIONS”

            Zero? I find that hard to believe. Because it is a lie.

            For more reading, this below is from johns hopkins website.

            The researchers caution that most of medical errors aren’t due to inherently bad doctors, and that reporting these errors shouldn’t be addressed by punishment or legal action. Rather, they say, most errors represent systemic problems, including poorly coordinated care, fragmented insurance networks, the absence or underuse of safety nets, and other protocols, in addition to unwarranted variation in physician practice patterns that lack accountability.

          • I appreciate the acknowledgment that chiropractors treat back pain. Seems you are making progress.

          • … which cannot be said about you

          • “… which cannot be said about you”

            You should read your article on use of an Ad Hominem

          • are you serious?
            I return your ‘compliment’ and you imply this to be an ad hominem

          • Yes, because you chose to omit the entire post above which called out your bias untruth, and you directed it toward me alone. You omitted the actual argument to try and belittle the person you are talking to. Classic Ad Hominem.

            ““NONE OF THESE ERRORS ARE MADE BY DOCTORS WHO TREAT BACK PAIN AND SIMILARLY MILD CONDITIONS”

            Zero? I find that hard to believe. Because it is a lie.

            For more reading, this below is from johns hopkins website.

            The researchers caution that most of medical errors aren’t due to inherently bad doctors, and that reporting these errors shouldn’t be addressed by punishment or legal action. Rather, they say, most errors represent systemic problems, including poorly coordinated care, fragmented insurance networks, the absence or underuse of safety nets, and other protocols, in addition to unwarranted variation in physician practice patterns that lack accountability.”

          • are you feeling alright?
            you sound as though you are a bit frantic and have lost all sense of perspective.
            try to calm down and think rationally

          • And your ad hominem continues. HAHA. what a joke

          • I get the impression that you are not quite sure what an ‘ad hominem’ is.
            for example, if I stated:
            YOU ARE EVIDENTLY TOO DAFT TO KNOW WHAT AN ‘AD HOMINEM’ IS
            that might be one – but I did not state this, did I?

          • I get the impression that you are not sure what an Ad Hominem is.

            No you did not state that. Are you implying this is the only sentence that would satisfy and ad hominem? Is that the only statement that would constitute as an ad hominem?

            Failing to address the argument or discussion at hand and moving to discuss the persons involved in the discussion is an ad hominem.

            So, to get back on track. Do you wish to comment on the same post that I have already reposted to help you stay on track?

            Here, I will repost it again.

            ““NONE OF THESE ERRORS ARE MADE BY DOCTORS WHO TREAT BACK PAIN AND SIMILARLY MILD CONDITIONS”

            Zero? I find that hard to believe. Because it is a lie.

            For more reading, this below is from johns hopkins website.

            The researchers caution that most of medical errors aren’t due to inherently bad doctors, and that reporting these errors shouldn’t be addressed by punishment or legal action. Rather, they say, most errors represent systemic problems, including poorly coordinated care, fragmented insurance networks, the absence or underuse of safety nets, and other protocols, in addition to unwarranted variation in physician practice patterns that lack accountability.”

          • I am getting worried about you!
            please calm down

          • Ed, this is fun for me.

            Has anyone ever even checked the sources for this garbage article? That first source is a real dandy.

          • “As a HealthCare provider, I set my goals to be able to treat any patient, with any condition with the Foundations of Chiropractic Care. ”
            Yes, I do believe you lack a bit of perspective.
            let’s discuss this once you have calmed down.

          • “I love my profession. I truly believe in the power of Chiropractic in the form of pain relief and mobilization of the spine to restore biomechanical function in the body.

            During the course of my Doctorate Curriculum, I started to see something bigger in this country that the chiropractic adjustment couldn’t help.

            The majority of Americans are suffering from progressive inflammatory conditions ranging from Obesity to Fibromyalgia, to Thyroid Dysfunction.

            As a HealthCare provider, I set my goals to be able to treat any patient, with any condition with the Foundations of Chiropractic Care. ”

            Real tricky there Ed,

            Only use part of the story to push your bias. See, when you read the whole thing it makes a lot more sense.

          • thanks
            the full quote makes you even less credible; you should change it because, you should change it because, in fact, you are a true pro and ethical practitioner, I am sure

          • Ok, maybe now you can see how you have changed the entire conversation about a subject into a conversation about the person in the conversation?

            Cheerio, you hypocrite.

          • so you are unable to identify ‘ad hominems’ but quite good at issuing them

          • Ole Ed, not sure if you are using the trusty rubber and glue scenario or the infamous “I know you are, but what am I?” Logic. Either way, its laughable.

            Frank,

            Give up man. Your same nonsense over and over is a real bore.

          • @Trent Mozingo

            During the course of my Doctorate Curriculum, I started to see something bigger in this country that the chiropractic adjustment couldn’t help.

            …two paragraphs later…

            As a HealthCare provider, I set my goals to be able to treat any patient, with any condition with the Foundations of Chiropractic Care.

            [my italics]

            “…when you read the whole thing it makes a lot more sense.” No, it blatantly contradicts itself!

        • As a UK oncologist who has been prescribing opiates to cancer patients for many years without any problems I was initially rather puzzled by the opioid crisis. As far as I can tell, there are several factors unique to the US healthcare system which are contributing.

          For a start, the US allowed pharmaceutical companies to advertise direct to the public. This creates a demand for drugs (not just pain-killers) among patients who do not have the training or knowledge to know whether these are actually appropriate for them.

          Secondly, from the case histories I have come across, it seems that opiates are being widely prescribed by doctors who do not have specific training in pain-management. Certainly in the UK, oncologists, palliative-care physicians and anaesthetists generally know how to prescribe these drugs appropriately, but in other areas, including general practice, these skills are somewhat patchy.

          In particular, most opiates are available as short-acting and long-acting preparations, the idea being that the short-acting version is used to establish the level of analgesia required before switching to the long-acting one for maintenance. Very few people (particularly patients, but also a lot of healthcare professionals) seem to understand that the long-acting drugs take 4 – 5 days to reach a steady level in the blood and varying the dose during that period can have unpredictable effects.

          I am happy to start a patient on short-acting morphine, with instructions to adjust the dose within a range according to the response, writing down each dose taken, and then to look at the diary after a few days in order to prescribe a safe and effective dose of long-acting transdermal fentanyl, but I wouldn’t expect an orthopaedic surgeon or a GP to be able to do that.

          One drug that has been widely implicated in the crisis is Oxycontin, which is a slow-release form of oxycodone. Anybody taking this on a PRN basis (i.e. as required rather than regularly) is asking for trouble.

          To make the situation worse, I gather that many opiate users don’t even obtain their drugs from their doctors or indeed anybody responsible for supervising their health care, but from friends who have been prescribed them, or from pharmacies supplying them with little oversight. There are even a sizeable number of people getting their pain-killers from the street, where illicitly-manufactured drugs such as fentanyl can have unknown strengths and be cut with other drugs.

          The opioid crisis has very little to do with orthodox medicine, which functions very well in most parts of the world, and is entirely caused by the peculiar healthcare system in the USA, which has many failings in addition to the ones touched on here.

          • Frank Odds says ‘ written words can create complications, agreed’ Yes, indeed, I do – you have conflated two sentences and in your ‘pie in the sky’ rationale concluded that I think Big Pharma are vendors of snake oil. Did you actually read what I posted? ‘ I don’t know what snake oil translates to’ so please explain how I relate it to Big Pharma? Being deliberately provocative is one thing but accuracy is another, so fior me, it is worth the time to right your wrong.

            ‘And do please read Dr Julian’s… …..response to this thread’ Frank, I am beginning to suspect you teach toddlers; seriously you don’t have to lead me to a post I have already read.

            I have to agree with you, though, Dr Julian is erudite and dispassionate. It is good to read his posts, borne out of experience and knowledge; those same attributes are not afforded to CAM posters as their experiences in the views of skeptics are anecdotal.

            May you continue to post Dr Julian, such a sensible asset to this blog.

            Frank, I think snake oil is a derisory term that is often used against CAM providers and users. So from that inference I can assure you that the snake oil and pharmaceutical connection is your’s alone. As it happens I hold a more balanced view : I have dear family members and friends whose lives depend on drugs. And as a UK resident I value our NHS, medical professionals and support staff. They are second to none.

            My original response to you was to point out what I had read with regard to the opioid epidemic: the meander you took is all yours.

            Now I think you may want to resort (as your last word) to pointing out a spelling error as you did in a previous post when it was pretty obvious as a missed letter, it was a typo (quite frankly I am surprised there aren’t more as with specs on nose, in my eighth decade, and typing on a small device, it is a tricky exercise. ) However, when you skeptics criticise others’ grammar and spelling, I think firstly, do you ever read your own posts, and secondly it reminds me of the wonderful professor I assisted many years ago – he was intelligent beyond anyone I have ever worked for – he was a pivotal developer of the Medical Lin-Acc – to be revered worldwide- his writing was ineligible and he couldn’t spell: creating a worthwhile challenge in report writing.

            So when the next casual poster appears and you don’t like their prose or grammar, instead of chasing them away with criticism, look st the message.

            Well, it’s Friday, so good to share.

    • Ive been thinking about going down to Texas and seeing a chiropractor there. He goes by the name of “Advanced Chiropractic…” on youtube. Im thinking of going down there depending on what my the orthopedist tells me on an appointment I got soon.

      • I would definitely see what the orthopaedic specialist has to say first. At the very least he will have a proper training in the many causes of back pain and will know how to investigate you properly, and he is likely to advise treatment that is based on what is known of anatomy, physiology and pathology and has evidence for its safety and efficacy. An advanced chiropractor is unlikely to have any of these skills.

      • @Needanswers

        “Comical” is perhaps the best term to describe this Houston chiropractor.

        When I was looking into and learning about chiropractic it was difficult to miss the shiploads of boisterous advertising videos on YT. According to Youtube today he has posted 874 videos and has almost 200 thousand followers.
        It is obvious his flood of advertising videos is giving him lots of attention and revenue.

        As a surgeon with long experience in fields such as trauma, emergency and upper GI surgery I can tell you with impunity that this comical chiroprACTOR is anything but credible.

        For example one of his extraordinary claims is being able to treat Gastro-esophageal reflux. I have extended experience of this problem, both medical and surgical, and it is totally impossible that the stage show he puts on can affect the pathological/anatomic mechanisms behind this problem.
        This is a complex problem that has nothing to do with the skeleton or spine. The anatomical structures involved are soft and pliable, muscles, nerves and connective tissue. Most people are adequately helped with lifestyle-improvements with or without medication. In selected cases surgery is needed. The ONLY way the anatomical problems can be rectified is with surgery, which in competent hands is quite effective.
        and you simply cannot reposition the anatomy more than very temporarily at best, with external prodding and pushing and certainly not with the silly vibrator-tools he theatrically applies for added stage-effect.
        His use of DIY-modified power tools from the hardware shop, like a vibrating sander or power jigsaw, is outrageously stupid.
        He sure may seem impressive and knowledgeable to the uninformed layman and it is quite evident that he thinks he is the best chiropractor north of Antarctica. But the truth is he is not even acting according to the original chiropractor script, with all his home-made acts.
        I would not recommend spending a dime on this joker.

  • I went to a chiropractor yesterday for the first time. I have recently had ongoing back pain for no particular reason that I can think of. I have always been skeptical of chiropractors. The only reason I even considered going to one is because about six months ago I had an extremely positive experience with “bone cracking.” I went to my family doctor (a D.O.) for severe back pain. It had persisted for about 3 weeks. He very quickly ran his fingers over my back, asked a few questions, and determined that I had a rib out. He laid me on a table and did some back cracking and pushed it back into place. The pain was immediately gone and I was back to normal. It was marvelous. So, because of this experience, I went to my local chiropractor yesterday for back pain. I am still extremely skeptical. I first had to watch a video explaining that chiropractic is a legitimate practice and how many people it helps and how it has a high satisfaction rating. That seemed strange. They then took x-rays, which I was not thrilled with because I did not want to pay for them. Then 10 minutes of hot pads on my back followed by one minute of a vibrating massage tool on my back. Then, the doctor came in for about three minutes which consisted of cracking my back while lying face down on a table, then cracking my neck while sitting in a chair, which scared me. The whole reason that I went was my back hurt, and he was jerking my neck around. He did not even know about my specific back pain until after he was done! He must have just walked in and did his standard routine. Then he told me to come back in two days. I decided that I will give it two more tries. If there is no improvement after three tries, I am done. I went through 36 years of sports and the army infantry and all kinds of other things just fine. I am definitely not going to the chiropractor weekly for the rest of my life. I will let you know how the next two visits go and if my back pain is focused on or relieved.

    • just 2 points:
      1) (s)he is NOT a doctor,
      2) the way you describe the event, you were not asked to give informed consent, neither could you because you were not informed [this is a breach of ethics!]

  • @deep-trench: dogma and financial-protectionism suit you and chiroquakery perfectly! Kind of like finding that subluxation and putting it back in-place with your Activator, or drop-table, or SOT blocks, or Atlas-adjustment or any other entrepreneurial theatric the gullible worried-well you solicit will pay for. It just feels sooooo right!
    Too bad you quacks weren’t taught biomechanics instead of gypsy-tricks 101, 102, 103 & 104….perhaps you’d realize your branch-of-“science” is actually just a bucket of sap. But I’m sure having sticky fingers helps you hold on to money more effectively.

    • Wow Michael, your over-the-top nonsense is exciting. It is a total swing and miss, but your effort is noted.

      • @ deep-trench: oh dear. These blogs are where you dual, joust with sharp-edged intellectual swords, linguistic jabs, pithy and perspicacious insights and proper-double-entendre. And here you just bring a piece of wet spaghetti and a short leg.
        And a pointless and trite baseball reference ??? And “your effort is noted”?? Oy vey you are disappointing on many levels. Perhaps you really should stick to the arcane world of subluxation-detection and correction and leave puns and allusion to the experts.
        Or better…why not describe IN DETAIL WTF you do to people (and what conditions they present with) during a typical service? That way perhaps we could all get an accurate swing at your nonsense once and for all.

        • Pretty simple process really.

          1. Thorough history of chief complaint.
          2. Physical exam to diagnose the symptom generator.
          3. Refer for imaging or further analysis if indicated.
          4. Treat if applicable.
          5. Re-evaluate after 3 visits of care plan.
          6. Establish confirmation of diagnosis and treatment plan or move on to further analysis.
          7. Refer to necessary specialist if no progress is made in 2 weeks of conservative care.

          • Much respect for your first reasonable, well-structured and completely emotionally-detached response to a question. This is a good start, I hope that anyone that responds can keep it that way for a while, so we can see if anything constructive can come out of it. The first thing I would expect being asked would, of course, be to elaborate a bit on the steps (especially 2 and 4, which, I think, would interest most people in this blog), but, in any case, my observation is a general one.

            Much admiration goes to step 7 as well (if you really do follow that methodology, of course). This is a hard step, but at least, it is the only implication of self-awareness regarding the limitations of your practice. On this matter (referal to necessary specialist after just 2 weeks), you really do stand out among Chiropractors.

          • Let me see:
            Patient: “Mr. T I have a few questions; is what you are going to to, going to be painful”?
            Mr T: “I am going to do an exam, treat with conservative-care if warranted, refer if needed”
            Patient: “ok, but will the treatment be painful?”
            Mr T: “I don’t know. I need to do my exam with invalid and unreliable procedures to determine what I will do. Then I might be able to tell if it will be painful”.
            Patient: “well is the treatment painful to other patients? Do you do something different to every patient? Does conservative-care to help my already existing pain need to make me hurt more”?
            Mr T: IDK, my exam will dictate how much pain I need to inflict….in order to get you better. Most patients aren’t complainers. Most allow god to work through me as HE sees fit. Perhaps you’re not like our good patients?”
            Patient: “well what will be done in the exam to reveal how you need to treat me?
            Is there real science behind your exam and the resultant treatment? Can you give me some real research to read before we begin”?
            Mr T: “well there’s no need for that…remember your sister-in-laws’ cousin told you it helped her. Besides you watched our new-patient-video and I have 20 years experience. That was enough for her to continue care”.
            Patient: “yes I suppose, but it took 10 treatments and was expensive…and recently, when it came back she didn’t get any treatments and it still went away in a few weeks. But I’m mainly concerned if the treatment is going to hurt”?
            Mr T: “as I said I don’t know what I’m going to do until I do my exam. But I do treat infants, toddlers and teens and they don’t seem to complain, much. And chiropractic has been helping sick people get well since 1895. Why are you so belligerent? Does your neck also hurt? That can cause certain mental problems”.
            Patient: “so you can only tell me you will do an exam, can’t tell me where to find real research about it, will treat me with conservative-care IF the exam tells you to, but can’t tell me how. Is that correct?”
            Mr T: “exactly. But typically if I do some sort of treatment I’ll need to do it over again and again for several weeks….much the same way you would pull out a splinter, or stitch a wound, or put a dislocated shoulder back-in….you need to do it repetitively to make the most money…er, I mean make the most benefit”.
            Patient: “oh ok, so you’re going to try to scam me?”
            Mr T: “well of course, I am a chiropractor after all. So please lie down so I can check your leg length, do some motion-palpation, check atlas-alignment, muscle-challenges, thermography and posture-assessment. If you were gullible enough to come in I’m sure my exam can find some reason to compel you to come back several times over the next two weeks while your pain goes away on its own”.
            Patient: “ok, thank you for answering all my questions so thoughtfully…But I’ve got to leave now and go punch out my sister-in-laws’ cousin”.

          • As you can see above James. The answer is No. These people can not have a normal conversation due to their strict bias and lack of interest for further understanding.

  • James, i can only attest to those chiropractors i associate with (around 10,000 evidence based chiropractors) but our general standard is:

    Two weeks conservative care and re-eval

    If no progress either refer or alter approach

    Two more weeks of care and repeat

    Once maximum therapeutic benefit has been released dismiss or consider maintenance approach.

    Case by case.

  • @MrT & DC: your answer reminds one of an atheist reciting the Lord’s Prayer…trying to appear that he got all the words everyone expects in the right order.
    Lol to you “doctors”…farcically trying to treat-away-pain with theatrics and all chasing your non-existent snipes. “Diagnosis the symptom generator”….you are the man, clearly! Science owes you a debt of gratitude for doing what 1000s of real scientists have failed to do. Have you sent your research on those “diagnostics” to Professor Bogduk, and Ernst….they may be interested to study your work?
    Is the “symptom generator” found through motion-palpation or short-leg analysis?…Or seance? Or do you simply ask the patient: “what is your symptom generator?”. Once you’ve deduced this do you then start a’ whackin’ randomly or with keen-specificity? Activator or “drops”, toggle-recoil or the flying 7?
    Or “shake, bake and fake” as GibletGiblet suggests PTs do?
    And if you treat so minimally HTF do you pay staff, overhead and keep the doors open amidst immense competition? Clearly if you charge what these theatrics are worth you’d need another job or a rich wife!
    Sorry but humor and castigation are the only recourse left to rationalists when dealing with utter dogma and nonsense. Or maybe I’m missing something having only been neck-deep in the Chiropractic swamp for a decade…
    And who “associates with” 10,000 people?? Are you really Taylor Swift?

  • Dictionary/Associate: As a verb, associate can mean to make a connection between things or concepts. You might associate the smell of lemons with summer memories of selling lemonade. … And, as a verb, associate can also mean to keep company with — like when you were associating with activists at the protest march.
    “I can only attest to those chiroquackers I associate with (around 10,000…)” That’s a lot of practices to visit…and people to believe.
    More to the point you chiroquackers ought to learn to use science books, perhaps Biomechanics of back pain (Bogduk, Adams, Burton & Dolan) particularly chapter 5. I don’t charge people or try to make a living contributing to a blog. Misusing a word (not) or voicing a vitriolic opinion here or there will hurt no one. Stealing money from the gullible due to insufficient, erroneous knowledge and perpetual dispensing of dogma and often injurious theatrics has since 1895. Why not define for us how “chiropractic”, as a distinct branch-of-science makes a diagnosis via the standards to which IT CREATED? And how the “chiropractic” treatment is aligned to an evidenced-based “chiropractic” diagnosis? Perhaps check out the definition of fraud…
    “Ignorance is not the enemy of knowledge, the illusion of knowledge is”…”Doctor”.

  • I find a field that treats a problem that more then likely will resolve itself on its own comical.

    Doctors provide pain medicine and path to surgery. Some folks need that but if you don’t your left with pain. If you want something else your forced to try and find a chiropractor or physical therapist. Your rolling the dice with both. I can remember calling out the physical therapist on how they were doing exercises to strengthen core muscles. They weren’t doing them right. There were 5 PT’s working at the practice no one bothered to say anything? Chiropractic care is defined you crack something the patient feels something was done and wow I feel much better. You feel better because you heard something happening, not because anything was “fixed”.

    Most pain your at a chiropractor for is muscles imbalances trying to find a short term fix for. It takes a long time to figure out under the wrong care where that muscle imbalance is unfortunately.

  • We have more Doctors, medical professionals, and other degree holders than ever before. Yet people are more unhealthy than ever.. The proof is in the pudding. They are all ineffective and hold themselves higher than they should. Western medicine is in denial. The proof is in the pudding.. Toxic meds, non preventive care, sick care rather than health care. We know as much about outer space as we do the brain and body. More unhealthy, obese, in pain, and pathological than ever. Keep thinking you’re all doing a good job and the pathology will increase proportionately.

    • “people are more unhealthy than ever”
      life expectancy 100 years ago ~ 40 years on average
      and today?
      you write a lot of tosh!!!

      • Life expectancy has been declining for a while now. Also, the biggest difference between life expectancy then and now is the reduced amount of infant mortality. This has dramatically driven the average life expectancy up.

        “people are more unhealthy than ever”

        I would say this is accurate because the amount of money spent on healthcare per person has increased for the last 50 years. Prevalence of heart disease has increased. Prevalence of cancer has increased. Prevalence of obesity has increased. Prevalence of ADHD, depression, alzheimers, dementia, and type 2 diabetes has increased.

        Are you saying that we are healthier now?

        • I think this is mostly incorrect; but I am happy to learn, if you show me the evidence.

        • Of course we spend more money on healthcare than we did 50 years ago. Back then we used to treat acute myocardial infarction with bed-rest rather than coronary angioplasty. We used to treat advanced colorectal cancer with open-and-shut laparotomies followed by morphine, rather than chemotherapy. Radiotherapy was rather primitive – no linear accelerators, let alone conformal or intensity-modulated treatment. We had no targeted therapies or monoclonal antibodies. For that matter we had rather basic x-rays, no CT scans, MRI scans or PET scans.

          There are a lot of things that we couldn’t or didn’t treat at all 50 years ago, and a lot of things that we now treat much better than we did back then.

          Any increase in diseases such as obesity and type 2 diabetes is largely due to lifestyle.

          I am interested to see that you are quoting prevalence rather than incidence. Assuming that the incidence of these chronic diseases is unchanged, any intervention which prolongs survival will increase the prevalence. That is simply maths.

          It is true that infant mortality strongly affects life expectancy at birth. That doesn’t mean that it is irrelevant as a measure of overall health; quite the reverse.

        • Trent, I have no idea how objective this is…but interesting.

          https://mpkb.org/home/pathogenesis/epidemiology

          • I have just had a look at this link. It doesn’t seem to be objective at all. They are mixing together information from a number of sources, some of which appear to be reliable and others not. Their main conclusion seems to be that we should try to reduce our level of vitamin D.

            Apart from the fact that low vitamin D results in rickets in children and osteomalacia in adults, and that many people living in higher latitudes are borderline deficient, particularly during the Winter, due to lack of exposure to daylight, it does seem to me that it must be pretty important generally, otherwise why would ancient humans living in the North have evolved their pale skin despite the increased risk of sunburn, skin cancers etc.?

          • https://www.drugs.com/article/weight-gain.html

            Obesity is a lifestyle issue, this is certain, but weight gain is also a very serious side effect of many commonly prescribed medications.

            How do you explain this correlation. Would this put the prescribing doctors at some fault for the obesity epidemic?

          • tosh again!
            many drugs lead to weight loss.
            does that make the Pharma industry a solution to the obesity epidemic?

          • The fact that you actually think the obesity epidemic can be corrected by more synthetic medicine is hilarious.

          • oh dear, I do not think so at all!
            can you not read?
            HERE IS WHAT I WROTE:
            many drugs lead to weight loss.
            does that make the Pharma industry a solution to the obesity epidemic?
            AND THIS MEANS:
            chemo, for instance, often leads to drastic weight loss. yet, it is hardly a solution for obesity!
            GOT IT?

          • Many drugs are prescribed for weight loss. By medical doctors. It is a laughable attempt at treating the obese. Some doctors even cut the stomach of a patient in half. Got it?

          • no, I did not get it because this is not what I wrote about, it is what you say, and it has nothing to do with my comment, nor with the subject of this post.
            don’t waste my time just because your waiting room is empty.

          • I am not surprised.

          • Obesity is a lifestyle issue, this is certain, but weight gain is also a very serious side effect of many commonly prescribed medications.

            No medication I know of makes people obese without eating too much. However unpleasant hunger may be, obesity is the direct result of eating too much. Maybe we should ban food?

          • You must not understand the metabolic response that happens within the body when medications like SSRIs are administered.

          • You must not understand the metabolic response that happens within the body when medications like SSRIs are administered.

            Possibly. Please enlighten me. How do people gain weight without eating too much, which actually means they are violating the laws of physics? Your explanation would solve the energy crisis and would possibly create a new one by delivering more energy than we can handle. It would make you rich beyond the dreams of avarice, and you would be eligible for several Nobel Prizes.
            I am all eyes.

          • You must not understand how metabolism works.

            Weight is as simple of calories in and calories utilized. Unless you manipulate the metabolic processes within the system with synthetic medications.

            So, if a medication would inhibit the thyroid gland to regulate body temperature accordingly it could allow for the human body to decrease in temperate, lowering their RMR. Body temperature is not a factor in calculating RMR so the medication will create a negative shift in the body’s ability to utilize calories as intended.

            So, one person that eats 2000 calories per day without a synthetic medication could utilize the calories more effectively than someone with an SSRI prescription

          • Edzard,
            Actually quite a lot of people put on weight during a course of chemotherapy.

            Trent,
            I think Edzard was being ironic when he suggested using drugs to combat obesity. Though it is not a simple matter of calories in minus calories out, as insulin secretion seems to be quite important for weight gain, and some foods (generally highly processed foods that are rapidly absorbed) stimulate more insulin secretion than others. Baryiatric surgery (e.g. stomach stapling) has its problems but it is life-saving in the morbidly obese. Drugs can affect weight in many ways, including appetite, inclination to exercise, various metabolic effects. It is a bit disingenuous to say that SSRI’s causing weight gain is necessarily a problem, since weight loss is a feature of depression, and regaining that weight may simply be an indication that the drugs are working.

          • I know, but a lot lose weight
            and yes, I was ironic

          • Edzard, Cancer itself causes people to lose weight. Not sure i want it as a weight loss strategy.

            Julian,
            A major issue with our medical system in the US is the culture. Weight gain is a common side effect to many medications. I am not sure if you are contesting this or not?

            There are many weight loss medications being prescribed. The idea that a physician should use any method of weight loss strategy other than diet and exercise is the preposterous. This is the culture of our medical system. Quick Fix and move on.

            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4186903/

            If you look at this study, geriatric patients do respond well to chiropractic care. Does this mean they are healthier because of it?

            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8345311

            Also in the context of this recent thread, this study shows that healthcare costs are lower in those that utilize chiropractic care. I feel this is mainly due to the shift in culture from pill pushing to patient education and awareness of who is responsible for their health.

        • @Trent Mozingo on Tuesday 18 December 2018 at 20:35

          I have had a gutful of the crap you spout on this blog.

          “Life expectancy has been declining for a while now.”
          Yes, because it is now very high now and lifestyle diseases, such as obesity, have started to take a toll. What does this have to do with the discussion, other than a red herring to make you look semi-intelligent but fails under even cursory examination.

          “Also, the biggest difference between life expectancy then and now is the reduced amount of infant mortality. This has dramatically driven the average life expectancy up.”

          Thank you, Captain Obvious, but it isn’t just infant mortality, as everyone else knows, people are living longer, unless you are as stupid as you eminently appear.

          The question is why, and it totally unrelated to you and your fellow charlatans faffing about with the worried well. The answer is medicine; vaccinations, pharmaceuticals, modern diagnostics, molecular biology, imaging, surgery, advancements in medical science, and the list goes on. What is obviously not on the list is chiro-nonsense. How many lives have you directly saved through your faffing? Doctors (real doctors) save lives routinely while you aren’t even allowed to lance a boil, for good reason.

          “I would say this is accurate because the amount of money spent on healthcare per person has increased for the last 50 years.

          Where does one start with this drivel? Of course the healthcare spend per person has increased because of improved medical science, diagnostics, treatments, surgery, et al, commensurate with longer more disease free, happier lives.

          “Prevalence of heart disease has increased.”

          Thanks again, Captain Obvious, because, generally, it is a function of age and an affluent lifestyle.

          “Prevalence of cancer has increased.”

          Another age related illness. You keep rolling them out, Captain.

          “Prevalence of obesity has increased.”

          Having seen a picture of you, you are contributing to the rise in obesity rates. Another red herring because obesity is a function of ……………………………………… (even you can fill this in, Captain).

          “Prevalence of ADHD, depression, alzheimers, dementia, and type 2 diabetes has increased.”

          ADHD; no one knows why. Do you, Captain?
          Depression; is it rising or is is the rate of reporting increasing? Where is your evidence, Captain?
          Alzheimer’s is a function of age, due to …………………………. (hint, nothing to do with chiro).
          Dementia; see above.
          Type 2 diabetes; see obesity.

          “Are you saying that we are healthier now?”

          Well Captain, would you rather be alive now or 50 years ago? I think that answers the question.

          I don’t like to use ad hominem, however, the idiocy of your responses is one reason why I don’t read the prof’s blog as often. You may have failed to notice but there are doctors and senior healthcare people who contribute. THEY are the people who have extended and saved people’s lives, while you give idiotic, smartarse comments and faff around with the gullible.

          The final ad hominem; you are a delusional imbecile. (Sorry prof.)

    • “We have more Doctors, medical professionals, and other degree holders than ever before.”
      I have no idea whether that is true, but if so then it reflects improved education, which is a major factor in health and in quality of life worldwide.

      “Yet people are more unhealthy than ever”
      Actually they aren’t.

      “They are all ineffective”
      I’m not sure I know what you mean by that. I know that I have saved many lives over the course of my career as an oncologist and improved the quality of life of many people whom I couldn’t save.

      ” hold themselves higher than they should. ”
      My observation is that the esteem in which doctors have been held seems to be in inverse proportion to how effective their treatment is. Doctors now are answerable to many other systems, including health care management, peer review, government targets etc., though their strongest critics tend to be themselves.

      ” The proof is in the pudding.”
      I’m not quite sure what you mean here. By the way, this proverb dates from a time when the verb “to prove” meant “to test”.

      “Toxic meds”
      Any substance which has a physiological or pharmacologica effect has the potential to be harmful. There is an old saying that the difference between a medicine and a poison is the dose, though in reality it is rather more complicated than tha.

      “non preventive care”
      Have you ever visited a GP? Preventive care is most of what they do. Public health medicine and epidemiology are very important contributers to the health of populations.

      “sick care rather than health care.”
      The sick still need caring for. Not all disease can be prevented.

      “We know as much about outer space as we do the brain and body”
      I’m not entirely sure that that is true, either, though undoubtedly physics is a lot simpler than biology. In essence what we know about outer space can be summed up in a single equation. The many complex pathways and feedbacks in the immune system, for example, are still a long way from being completely unravelled, though we know a great deal more than we did when I studied immunology at medical school.

      ” More unhealthy, obese,”
      I don’t think you can blame doctors for that. Perhaps you should be looking at politicians who listen to the food industry rather than to their scientific advisers.

      “in pain”
      I rather doubt that. On the other hand people’s expectation nowadays is that they should not have pain, so it is not as well tolerated as it used to be (think of all the surgery that used to take place without anaesthetic).

      “more… pathological than ever”
      I really don’t know what you mean by that.

      “Keep thinking you’re all doing a good job and the pathology will increase proportionately”
      I’m not sure what you mean by that, either. Doctors are well aware of their limitations and millions of researchers worldwide devote their lives to furthering medical and biomedical knowledge in order to improve what we can do.

      And what about vaccines, which have contributed more to human health than any other single measure?

      • “And what about vaccines, which have contributed more to human health than any other single measure?”

        For once, I think you’re mistaken, Julian. Mortality data suggest that the single public health measure of separating drinking water from sewage contributed more significantly than any other to reduction of fatal (infectious) diseases. Vaccines are certainly up there with the most important human health improvement measures, but their contribution came long after death rates had fallen wherever simple sanitation procedures had been implemented.

        • Frank,

          I didn’t mention the influence of sanitation, but you are quite right, it is huge, and if you discount vaccinations it has probably contributed more than most (all?) other aspects of medicine put together.

          Worldwide, I am unsure of the relative benefits of sanitation compared to vaccination. There are still large numbers of people who do not have access to safe drinking water, and many of them are nevertheless reachable by vaccination programmes. On the other hand childhood diarrhoea is still a major killer, and not preventable by vaccines.

          It is, however, readily treatable with oral rehydration therapy, which can even prevent death from cholera (though the amount of OHT necessary is huge in cholera). Some years ago the WHO launched a programme to educate people about OHT, and how it could easily be prepared at home with a three-finger pinch of salt, a handful of sugar and a large Coca Cola bottle full of water (they chose that as a measure because it was universally available). Coca Cola sued them as they didn’t feel that it suited their image.

          • Thanks Julian, particularly for the laugh your last sentence gave me.

            Every time there’s an earthquake or similar natural disaster we seem to hear of extensive deaths from water-borne microbes thanks to the eradication of local sanitation. In 2007 the British Medical Journal undertook a reader survey to sound out opinions of the “Greatest medical advance since 1840” (year in which the BMJ was first published). The results showed ‘the sanitary revolution’ was the most popular choice. Vaccines came in fourth.

            Take a look at this website. The graphs suggest, once again, that — at least in the UK — mortality rates were already in steep decline before the introduction of vaccines. (Much the same applies to antibiotics as to vaccines.)

            But you’re right: in recent years vaccines have had a terrific impact on the eradication of infections, particularly in poorer regions, leaving us living longer so we can enjoy the experience of (among others) your particular baby: cancer!

          • Frank,

            I have had a look at those Web sites. With regard to the BMJ survey, the results reflect the opinions of individual doctors rather than epidemiological research. I am not an epidemiologist and I am not really in a position to give the true ranking of the factors mentioned. They were medical milestones, rather than contributions to mortality – hence the inclusion of anaesthesia in the list.

            With regard to the anti-vaccination Web site, I am not particularly familiar with the graphs shown and I am not really in a position to comment on how the data were collected. However, at least some of the commentry is wrong.

            Poliomyelitis doesn’t mean inflammation of the grey matter, it means inflammation of the marrow (the spinal marrow is an old term for the spinal cord). Compare with osteomyelitis, which is a chronic infection of the bone marrow. This may seem like nit-picking, but anyone familiar with medical terminology should know this, which leads me to conclude that the author is not medically trained.

            This history of smallpox vaccination is also wrong. An earlier prophylactic measure against smallpox was inoculation, which involved taking material from the scabs of smallpox patients and applying it to an incision in the skin. There was an appreciable risk of catching smallpox from the procedure, though clearly the perception was that this risk was lower than that of catching smallpox in other ways. I think this is probably the reason for the deaths that the author was referring to, not deaths from cowpox. He also refers to vaccination as a disgusting, unclean practice, which is probably how we would now regard many aspects of life in the 18th and early 19th centuries.

            It is well-known that the virulence of many diseases has declined over the years. Measles, for instance, used to be rapidly fatal and has been responsible for a huge number of deaths worldwide. Along with other diseases originally contracted from livestock, natural selection for genes resistant to it have greatly reduced its impact. Another curious one is syphilis, which from historical descriptions was clearly once a much more aggressive disease than it is now.

            With regard to scarlet fever, as far as I know nobody knows the true reason for its decline, and to conclude that this is due to improved living conditions and then to extrapolate from this to smallpox simply is not justified. Scarlet fever (and similarly, rheumatic fever) is caused by specific strains of streptococcus inducing an antibody which cross-reacts with the skin and heart valves (in the case of rheumatic fever with the joints and heart valves). I have never seen a case of either acute infection, but older people with cardiac damage from them are still quite common. Curiously, there has recently been a resurgence in scarlet fever, which I don’t think can be blamed on a decline in living standards.

            One reason for changes in mortality from many diseases is a matter of how they are diagnosed (and indeed, how they are defined). Following a BBC Panorama TV programme in the early 1980’s highlighting a supposed link between pertussis (whooping cough) vaccination and neurological events such as fits, there was a sharp decline in immunisation rates in the UK. This was followed by a rise in deaths in infants from acute respiratory infections, which may well have been due to unrecognised pertussis, which is much more dangerous in infants than in older children, when it is merely very unpleasant. Subsequent research showed that the risk of serious sequelae from pertussis vaccination was less than 1 in 1,000,000, whereas the peak in excess respiratory deaths was of the order of 300 per year (I can’t give you a reference for that – it is what I was taught in my epidemiology class at medical school).

            Of course vaccination was never the only method of preventing contagious diseases. I have recently been reading the letters that my great-great-great-grandparents wrote to each other whenever they were apart (roughly 200 years ago), and sometimes this was because they were isolating their children due to infection.

          • Julian…

            Serves me right for being in a hurry and utterly lazy! I was in fact searching for the graph shown as fig. 1 on this website. It’s from the CDC and, although that means the data apply only to the USA, my understanding is that it’s a fair representation of the experience of the Western world. I would not normally rush to reference an anti-vaccination website, and in all honesty didn’t even realize I was doing so! The graphs looked consistent with those from the CDC. Lesson learned: I shan’t post again in a rush!

            Thank you for pointing out the many inaccuracies of detail in the link I posted. Please don’t for one second imagine I am a fan of the antivax imbeciles.

            You raise the notable point that the virulence of many infectious agents has declined over the years. The microbiological philosopher would argue that it is not to the advantage of a microbe to kill the “hand that feeds it”, so that lethal pathogens tend to evolve into commensals. Certainly this applies to cholera, where severely damaging Vibrio cholerae strains have been supplanted with less virulent El Tor types over the past century. The same possibly applies to Strep. pyogenes strains producing erythrogenic toxin.

            You also raise the issue of disease definition and diagnosis as a factor affecting prevalence and incidence. This is a really profound difficulty in medical science: doctors will always find more cases of a particular disease when their attention has been drawn to it, which happens particularly when a novel diagnostic method is introduced or the definition is changed. Like you say, the problem is compounded when popular media draw lay attention to a disease. a TV progamme on something like prostate cancer can lead to a doubling or more of worried patients consulting their GPs and overloading specialist clinics.

            The final paragraph of your comment is really fascinating. The current infectious disease for which close and constant proximity is a clear contributing factor is tuberculosis. But I guess your great-great-great-grandparents would have been isolating their children for more acutely lethal conditions?

          • Frank,

            Yes, I thiknk so, though I am not really very clear what was going round at the time. In the early 19th century they were clearly aware of contagion but did not know about microbes as a cause of disease. In their letters they spent quite a bit of time discussing cures, and Emma in particular (my great-great-great-grandmother) seemed to spend a lot of time taking water cures of various kinds, which included annual visits to the South Coast in order to swim in the sea in October (which sounds a bit cold to me). She also had some kind of gynaecological problem which was treated in London by a combination of drinking dilute vitriol (sulphuric acid) and intravaginal injections of cold water, with instructions that this should be quite vigorous in order to reach the womb. The cost of a stagecoach to London, accommodation and doctor’s fees were quite considerable, but she and her husband clearly thought that it was worth it.

            She eventually recovered as she went on to have several more children after this (I think she had about ten in all, and none died in childhood). She also had a shower installed in the house (this was well before piped water – I think the system involved a hand-pump recycling water from a tub that she stood in) though I am not sure whether this was for reasons of health or hygeine.

  • Manipulation is probably not very effective and at worst dangerous.
    Most people seek out chiropractic care for the treatment of back pain.
    Most of the back pain is not due to a clear-cut medical condition such as fracture, infection, neoplasm, or severe nerve compression. Overall the medical profession has not been very effective in treating this because it is not a problem that lends itself easily to pills or surgery. For most sufferers of back pain, it is most likely a lifestyle issue brought on by weight status, lack of physical activity, posture, work place ergonomics and poor core strength. Given how ubiquitous back pain is is in middle school an older age, it is no doubt part of the human condition.
    I have consulted with a chiropractor for back pain recently. He went through some basic evaluations to rule out severe nerve impingement. For some reason he felt it necessary to “pop” my mid/upper back. In the end he could not give me a clear cut diagnosis of what he thought my problem was. Maybe a disc, maybe muscle strain, not really sure etc.. at least he was honest about that. I think in the end most of us are gonna get some back pain.

    What has helped me so far is his affiliation with a physical therapist and his prescription for strengthening exercises.
    Although I am a medical doctor I try to keep an open mind in view problems pragmatically. I have no inherent bone to pick with chiropractors as I have never really had any exposure or interaction with them prior to this meeting.
    For me personally, and for my patients, I will recommend physical therapy as I see no meaningful role in spinal manipulation.

  • I came across this site because I believe I may have nerve damage in my left hand and wrist due to a chiropractic adjustment I had 3 days ago. I felt pulling in my hand nerve as of the afternoon of the adjustment and it has progressively gotten worse. I have tingling and numbness and shooting pain where I can’t really do much right now. I went to see this chiropractor because he was trusted by my close friends and so I trusted him. Went in for allergies and tiredness and some general aches and pains, I know now that all of that was caused by low iron because only a week after I took iron supplements I felt 90% better. However, during the exam Dr mentioned several structural problems and during the exams there were areas of my body that hurt as he manipulated and I told him, I didn’t know so many areas of my body hurt. He did have a very heavy hand. As a matter of fact when he was illustrating to me something about a spyncter he used my left wrist as an esample and he put his hand around it a squeezed it so tight it hurt. Me being too polite and not wanting to make him feel bad just sat there as he squeezed away. So now, from either that action or the neck and spine adjustment I’m in worse shape than I can in and I’m feeling so frustrated and depressed as I couldn’t wait to get back to health in order to take care of my family and I’m praying that this will go away in a few days and fear the worse, having to deal with not being able to use my arm. I’ve lost my faith in chiropractors. I had another bad experience with chiropractors when I was younger after a car accident, made me worse and this just confirmed it for me, they can really harm you.

    • chiros are not doctors in the sense of having studied medicine. they cannot treat the conditions you describe. best to see a real doctor, if you ask me.

    • a little biased BS. I was fine going sometimes toa chiro. Felt good, relaxed..since when can an MD fix pai or know what even to do except scripts. All these posts are just nti chiropractic, because there would always be a mix if th was n’t fake.. It s real fake.

  • In spring of 2012, I was diagnosed with spondylolisthesis. My spinal cord was severely compressed. I had been using chiropractic for years. It did not fix the problem, but provided a few hours of relief, which I was thankful for.

    What I did not know was that I could have suffered from paralysis related to chiropractic manipulation of my spine due to the compression.

    I had surgery to relieve pressure on spinal cord (ACDF C 5-7) which did not give relief, but at least took away the risk of paralysis.

    Never again will I have chiropractic with out a thorough medical evaluation!

  • I had a motorcycle accident in 1993 and hit a van with my body which knocked the wind out of me. The next day I could not move or breath deep I was in so much pain. Doctors prescribed pain killers. A week or so later the pain was less and I was on the floor getting up and my back folded in half and I thought ehew….that’s not right. I went to my moms chiropractor who poked around and said, well and uh hum…then he said ok this is going to hurt. And he knocked the wind back out of me as he shoved the middle my back into my neck. Result. I didn’t bend in half anymore.

    Trust me you get something out of place in your neck or back you’ll feel it, and a GOOD chiropractor will put it back in. A BAD chiropractor will string you along and do a little poke here and a little poke there and charge you $60 to feel the same way you did leaving as coming in.

  • I’m currently a chiropractic student because traditional medicine failed me and “alternative” medicine helped me. This has to be one of the silliest forums I’ve ever come across. It’s just two sides of the same coin, yes absolutely you can get hurt from an adjustment but you are just as likely to get harmed by medicine or surgery. I’m just seeing people ask for research; when research is presented, the research is regarded as irrelevant. I don’t think people realize that not too long ago, surgeries weren’t done by the smartest man in the room, they were done by the man that had the tools (barbers), dental work was done by barbers too. It is because of the small surgical successes, more money and time was invested into the research and education of surgery and medicine (this is great). Now, chiropractic is seeing success in their field, but not receiving the same support to invest for more research. Even after seeing these two conflicting sides go at it, I would still choose chiropractic or osteopathy (probably chiropractic because osteopathic medicine is starting to fuse with the medical profession). Many of my classmates were pharmaceutical sales representatives and they left that field because they’d see 10x price increases from the distributors to the hospitals, this is absurd. I think people need to realize that it’s not medical doctors in control of the medical field anymore, it’s big pharmaceutical companies.
    If we spent the same amount of time on this forum that we do on medical research, we’d probably have the perfect cure for cancer right now.

    • “when research is presented, the research is regarded as irrelevant”
      Not true. When research is presented, it is examined critically for quality, validity of statistical methods used etc. as all scientific papers should be. Unfortunately very little research into the efficacy of so-called alternative medicine has so far stood up to scrutiny. There are an awful lot of bad papers published in the conventional medicine sector, and an important part of medical training is learning how to read them properly rather than simply accept their conclusions.

    • @Andrew Huynk

      “I’m currently a chiropractic student because traditional medicine failed me and “alternative” medicine helped me.” I can understand how that’s swayed your attitudes, but please do tell us in what way traditional medicine (it may be better just to call it ‘medicine’, as lots of ‘alternatives’ also boast the name ‘traditional’) failed you and alternatives helped.

      “…you can get hurt from an adjustment but you are just as likely to get harmed by medicine or surgery…” That’s possibly true, but surely it’s important to weigh up the benefits of procedures as well as the risks?

      “I’m just seeing people ask for research; when research is presented, the research is regarded as irrelevant.” I’ve followed this blog for several years, and the problem I see is that few people defending the ‘alternative’ side ever present evidence. They repeatedly tell us that X worked for them (anecdote, usually with sparse or incomprehensible details) and say that people shouldn’t dismiss something till they’ve tried it (not true: I don’t need to spend time trying things that have previously and repeatedly been shown not to be true in respectable experimental research by others).

      “Now, chiropractic is seeing success in their field, but not receiving the same support to invest for more research.” Support (i.e. finance) for research is available from very many sources, ranging from wealthy and committed sponsors to government bodies to charities to people and companies that stand to benefit financially from positive research outcomes. Most people don’t understand how formal scientific research funding works. It’s not just a case of throwing money at something that sounds interesting: somebody has to make a case for a specific and detailed research project/programme that is judged by panels of expert assessors to be of sufficiently high quality to achieve its goals. I think you need to give us a bit of chapter and verse on your opinion that “chiropractic is seeing success in their {sic] field”.

      “Many of my classmates were pharmaceutical sales representatives and they left that field because they’d see 10x price increases from the distributors to the hospitals, this is absurd.” Maybe, but this is hearsay evidence which wouldn’t be acceptable even in a court of law, never mind in good science. Sales representatives in any walk of life are not exactly renowned for their high principles.

      “I think people need to realize that it’s not medical doctors in control of the medical field anymore, it’s big pharmaceutical companies.” This is a rather tired trope: check out other threads on this blog and you’ll see it recurring over and over. In my own opinion, it’s mainly politicians who control the medical field nowadays. They act to constrain expenditure on health services where the expenditure may be the result of greed on the part of pharmaceutical companies and appliance makers — oh yes, and the manufacturers of all the disposable items used in medicine and the manufacturers of the huge, computer-controlled scanners and radiation therapy machines and… I think you get the point.

      “If we spent the same amount of time on this forum that we do on medical research, we’d probably have the perfect cure for cancer right now.” I’m not sure this sentence accurately reflects what you meant to say. Spending time on this forum doesn’t contribute one iota to medical research, and you seem to be asking researchers to stop what they’re doing and contribute posts to this forum. I’m going to assume that you intended to transpose ‘medical research’ and ‘on this forum’. But your comment exhibits two common fallacies. ‘Cancer’ is a single disease only in the sense that it refers to uncontrolled cell division: there are very many different types of cancer. And while the expression ‘perfect cure’ may come from the heart, there is in reality no ‘perfect cure’ for any disease: for many types of cancer there are nowadays cures that are effective in the majority of affected individuals, allowing them to survive for many years, even decades, after diagnosis.

    • @Andrew Huynh on Monday 13 May 2019 at 15:47

      The reality is that you are a chiro student because you aren’t smart enough to get into any of the real medical courses, BUT you want to be important and have a title like “doctor”. It is shown clearly by the rambling prose, incoherent logic, logical fallacies, and misinformation into which you have been inculcated through chiro.

      As others point out, your understanding of medicine is less than minimal.

  • The blog clearly states that we must carefully choose chiropractors for that we can take help of trustworthy online chiropractor reviews.
    It would be helpful if you guided us with essential factors to look in a chiropractor.

    • Perhaps this may help…

      10 ways to spot a scam chiropractor

      1. They talk about “subluxations” and how they cause disease and getting them removed is equal to health.
      2. They require you to have x rays in order to receive treatment.
      3. They use your x rays and compare them to a “normal” x ray.
      4. They don’t give you a diagnosis
      5. They require you to bring a “co-decision maker” to your report of findings.
      6. They never treat you the first day at their clinic.
      7. They use the same scripts for everyone.
      8. They make you pre-pay for long term plans of care.
      9. They have no separate treatment rooms.
      10. They advise you against vaccinations or advise you to stop taking your medications.

      • @DC

        Please remind us which chiro school you were trained in.

      • Please also tell us how your brand of chiro is differentiated from a scam chiro? Please also tell us what equipment you use? Better still, publish your website so everyone can see how your brand stands up under close scrutiny?

        Nah, won’t happen. lol

        • Frank, you are correct in that I won’t reveal who I am. The reason? I got tired of dealing with the threats against me from anti-chiropractors.

          From threats of burning down my business, beating me up in alleys, trying to put me in prison, setting me on fire, etc.

          Just because I am a chiropractor.

          Unfortunately, there are some in here which seem to want to fuel that hate.

          • @DC: excellent pun!

          • @DC
            Not sure which Frank your comment adresses, but I can only deplore those who’ve threatened you. It is entirely inappropriate behaviour.

          • Frank Odds, my comment was directed towards Frank Collins and his request for me to share my website.

            I have had to take action a few times over the years but i understand that most are just keyboard warriors and they feel safe making empty online threats. The few I have taken action against indicated taking measures off the internet and into my personal and family life.

            I make every effort in my discussions not to be emotional, keep to the facts the best I can. Unfortunately, for some, just with me being a chiropractor, even that is enough reason to spew hate.

            But as they say, haters gonna hate.

          • @DC on Wednesday 29 May 2019 at 12:52
            [QUOTE]I got tired of dealing with the threats against me from anti-chiropractors.
            From threats of burning down my business, beating me up in alleys, trying to put me in prison, setting me on fire, etc.
            Just because I am a chiropractor.[/QUOTE]
            Can I assume from this that you don’t have a website, a business sign on your premises, or advertise at all. I am cynical that simply giving an URL here would generate a greater reaction that the aforementioned, or is it that your claims won’t withstand close scrutiny?

            You have, perhaps intentionally, avoided answering the first part of my my request; [QUOTE]Please also tell us how your brand of chiro is differentiated from a scam chiro? [/QUOTE].

            [QUOTE]I make every effort in my discussions not to be emotional, keep to the facts the best I can. Unfortunately, for some, just with me being a chiropractor, even that is enough reason to spew hate.[?QUOTE]
            If you were the least bit interested in facts, you wouldn’t be a chiro.

          • FC…Can I assume from this that you don’t have a website, a business sign on your premises, or advertise at all.

            You can assume whatever you want.

          • “You can assume whatever you want.”

            I can say with completely certainty that you are full of it.

          • FC…I can say with completely certainty that you are full of it.

            Which makes you a pseudoskeptic.

            Have a nice life.

    • @Shane Hobbs on Monday 27 May 2019 at 12:26

      As most back complaints are self-limiting and resolve spontaneously, just exercise, walk and see it through. It will save you money and time.

  • That is rich of you to say Professor Odds, considering that your track record of comments on this site, many of which I can hardly consider to be impartial. You asked Sandra Courtney if she is ‘blind’ and has a ‘dense sponge’ of a brain? If that is an impartial scientist writing, then God help us all. (I know that you think the idea of God existing is rubbish, but I don’t)

    Then there is the other issue of your interest in tracking down the identity of people that post comments.

    DC looks safe (for the time being)

    • Greg,
      It doesn’t surprise that you are a god-botherer. The evidence you have for a god (which one of the 4, 000 odd invented by humans) is as substantial as that which you have for your charlatanry, NIL. lol

      • The evidence you have for a god (which one of the 4, 000 odd invented by humans) is as substantial as that which you have for your charlatanry, NIL.

        I think that the freedom of religion as it is put into practice today is a major problem for humanity. How can we – in any credible way – say that chiropractic and other forms of charlatanry are bollocks when we give a legal free pass with extended priviliges to the biggest nonsense of all?
        As for specific gods, I vote for Canola. She is certainly a lot more artistic and friendlier than the moral monster propagated by the Christian death cult.

  • It is fascinating to me “Greg”, that you apparently can’t make a living that is devoid of conniving gullible people. And as is typical you reverse the argument to accuse your critics of ad hominem attacks and using invectives AS IF the rules-of-society dictate rectitude and sympathy towards reprobates and bounders. Like criticizing a scoundrel and their pecuniary reward-system is somehow equivalent to criticism of the handicapped, unattractive or downtrodden. Perhaps that isn’t that far off since having to make a living as a healthcare-fraud is certainly a moral handicap at the least.
    You, through lack of proper education and alignment with the scientific-side-of life have opted to screw your fellow man/woman for your own financial and social gain…if you can’t stand being branded as such why bother commenting on pubic sites where erudite and unsympathetic science-minded individuals gather? Perhaps like homeopathy, which suspends all the rules of science and common sense, you think your bloviating and machinations will upend all the rules of psychology as well?

  • I’m going to come back and read as many comments as possible. Overwhelming the number of comments and opinions to say the least! Thanks for outlining your book, I’m going to see if it is still in print.

  • Can I ask, is this intended to state that the whole industry is a scam, or that some have extended the place of Chiropractic to ailments that should otherwise be covered by doctors. Do you believe there are some Chiropractors genuinely focussed on things they can affect and make a positive difference on?

    I have had some back pain recently and saw a Chiropractor for the first time today. He didn’t take any X-Rays and has recommended only one follow up appointment to do the rest of the adjustments he started in the consultation.

    Just wondering if you believe it’s all questionable or there’s still a place for it…

    Thanks!
    M

    • @Marcus on Friday 31 May 2019 at 21:21

      Most back pain resolves by itself. It is like the old adage; if you don’t take any medicine. a cold lasts two weeks, if you do, it only lasts a fortnight.

      Chiro doesn’t off anything you can’t do yourself; exercise, eat healthy food, don’t drink too much, get enough good sleep, and don’t be too hard on yourself. There, that will be $100, if you went to a chiro.Chiros say otherwise but cannot provide any evidence to support their claims. Never have and never will.

      • “Most back pain resolves by itself” but is it really resolved? i doubt it. it will come back. especially as we age.

        “Just wondering if you believe it’s all questionable or there’s still a place for it…” yes, there is. see below.

        i have a congenital spinal defect, and was in a near fatal car accident when i was nineteen. i had chronic back problems from that point forward, excruciating episodes which could last up to a month. i was prescribed painkillers and muscle relaxers, neither of which helped. i was crippled, could barely walk across campus when i was in college.

        it took me four chiropractors before i found one who could help me (after twenty years of this). so yes, of course there are quacks out there. i dislike these people intensely. i have also dislike and felt i received bad care from many MDs. this chiropractor made no promises. she did not require i sign up for a program and come twice a week or push any supplements on me. i went to her in pain and left her in no pain. and by God she absolutely could put my rib (which had popped out during the accident and was now fused on top of my sternum) back in place. i could feel what she did to my body. i could feel the difference.

        ii also started practicing yoga and have come to KNOW my body. i have experienced such a drastic reduction in pain. i have not had a back episode in so long i can’t remember when the last one was.

        traditional medicine did nothing for me, in this case (but i have also received really excellent care from medical doctors for plenty of issues). traditional medicine is often in the pocket of the pharmaceutical companies. this scares me.

        yet still, i do not understand why these two practices, bot created in order to help and heal, cannot coexist.

        there are a lot of bad doctors and a lot of bad chiropractors. and thankfully so very many good ones, of both. just do your research.

    • Marcus, it’s not as simple as FC wants you to believe.

      Yes, often nonspecific back pain will self resolve. However, often the goal of receiving care, regardless of the practioneer is to increase comfort and function while this healing takes place. This is why MDs script things like muscle relaxers, NSAIDs and pain relievers. This is should be the goal of manual therapists as well, increase comfort and function during the healing process. One of the reasons is to help people to get back to work sooner

      Also, in back pain there is often a fear of pain with movement (kinesiophobia). This should be addressed as well especially if that patient is working towards exercise or rehab. This is topic that is gaining interest in manual therapy research. Also, evidence is coming out that acute pain intensity is a predictor of outcome and a possible reason for people to move into a chronic pain state. This may tie in kinesiophobia, but that is still being investigated. Also, exercise compliance is an issue. Most patient either don’t know which exercises to do or how to do them properly.

      So, it’s not as easy as telling people to just go out an exercise. I wish it was.

      • “So, it’s not as easy as telling people to just go out an exercise. I wish it was.”
        DO YOU REALLY?
        you would out of a job!

        • EE…”So, it’s not as easy as telling people to just go out an exercise. I wish it was.”
          DO YOU REALLY?
          you would out of a job!

          Yes, I would be fine with finding another vocation or returning to my previous occupation.

    • Marcus, as far as your query if people think chiropractic as a whole is a scam or not, don’t expect most so called skeptics in here to honestly respond to that question.

      • “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”

        ― Upton Sinclair

      • Marcus, there is a good reason why hospitals don’t employ chiros.

        DC (doctor of charlatanry) is obfuscating and using the usual line of chiro nonsense. You need chiro like you need a hole in the head.

        • Actually Marcus, the reason hospitals dont employ chiropractors is because our patient base usually arent admitted to hospitals.

          • Actually Marcus, the reason hospitals dont employ chiropractors is because our patient base usually arent admitted to hospitals.

            Hospitals employ ophthalmologists. Their patient base is usually not admitted to a hospital. The vast majority, even very serious cases, are treated as outpatients. Only rarely is a patient actually admitted.
            Hospitals employ endocrinologists. Their patient base is usually not admitted to a hospital. The vast majority, even very serious cases, are treated as outpatients. Only rarely is a patient actually admitted.
            The reason hospitals do not employ chiropractors is the same reasons hospitals do not employ magicians: they belong in fun-fair attractions, not health care institutions.

          • There are hospitals that will lease space to a chiropractor. Some ERs have chiropractors on call. Not many have hospitals have chiropractors as employees as its usually just a referral case from the PCP…no need to send to the hospital.

          • There are hospitals that will lease space to a chiropractor.

            I don’t doubt it. There are hospitals that lease space to Tim Hortons as well.

            Some ERs have chiropractors on call.

            Sure. Some have chaplains on call as well. They’re equally unuseful.

            Not many have hospitals have chiropractors as employees as its usually just a referral case from the PCP…no need to send to the hospital.

            Not many hospitals have magicians as employees either.

          • Marcus, if chiros offered any useful efficacious service to hospitalised patients for any condition, they would be employed by hospitals.

            It is worth remembering what chiros CANNOT do;
            lance a boil,
            stitch a wound,
            give an injection,
            refer to a specialist, etal, and, most importantly,
            think logically, as exemplified by this nonsense, [QUOTE]because our patient base usually arent admitted to hospitals.[/QUOTE]

          • I will say that Bart is giving Mr Kenny a run for most useless ramblings.

          • FC…think logically, as exemplified by this nonsense, [QUOTE]because our patient base usually arent admitted to hospitals.[/QUOTE]

            Frank, it appears you aren’t the sharpest knife in the drawer.

            Some of the more common conditions that adults are admitted to a hospital are:

            Pneumonia
            Congestive heart failure
            Septicemia

            Although osteoarthritis is a common reason for the 50+ age group often that is for surgical intervention.

            FC…“It is worth remembering what chiros CANNOT do;
            lance a boil,
            stitch a wound,
            give an injection,”

            So if your main point is that chiropractors can’t do everything MDs can do, well, like duh.

            I am done dealing with your silly posts.

          • @DC on Monday 03 June 2019 at 12:22

            [QUOTE]
            Frank, it appears you aren’t the sharpest knife in the drawer.
            [/QUOTE]

            lol, the irony is dripping from the walls. It is a pity you can’t realise it. I take it as a badge of honour to get this from you. For all of your hubris, did you not notice the comment is addressed to Marcus?

            I’m not the one who has followed the cult of chiro, invented by a convicted thief and conman with the totally implausible idea of talking to a deaf man and cricking his neck to restore hearing while being ignorant of basic physiology, which the said crook described as HIS religion as much as those founded by Smith and Eddy are theirs alone. Palmer, who stole his preposterous idea from the equally preposterous invention by Still, wasn’t even smart enough to change the premise from Still’s vitalism to another, equally ridiculous, causation agent.

            With vitalism and the impossible to find subluxation, chiro is an abject nonsense based of religious voodoo and shamanism. Without vitalism and the mythical subluxation, chiro is a pretentious non-medical nonsense and is little more than an enthusiastic massage by underqualified fools.

            [QUOTE]
            Some of the more common conditions that adults are admitted to a hospital are:

            Pneumonia
            Congestive heart failure
            Septicemia

            Although osteoarthritis is a common reason for the 50+ age group often that is for surgical intervention.
            [/QUOTE]

            What is your point; chiros can’t treat any serious medical conditions? Yep, we all know that.

            [QUOTE[
            FC…“It is worth remembering what chiros CANNOT do;
            lance a boil,
            stitch a wound,
            give an injection,”

            So if your main point is that chiropractors can’t do everything MDs can do, well, like duh.
            [/QUOTE]

            I though even you might get this. It shows chiros are unqualified to do even basic first aid.

            [QUOTE]
            I am done dealing with your silly posts.
            [/QUOTE}
            Do you understand why some of the posts to and about you are silly? You are an object of derision and people are ‘taking the piss’. How will your insurmountable ego take that you a joke, as is a chiro?

          • FC….Palmer, who stole his preposterous idea from the equally preposterous invention by Still, wasn’t even smart enough to change the premise from Still’s vitalism to another, equally ridiculous, causation agent.

            Sigh, it’s more likely that DD Palmer was first exposed to spinal manipulation by Bohemian bonesetters in the Davenport area who called their therapy napravit (to fix, to repair).

            But whatever, have a nice life.

          • @DC on Tuesday 04 June 2019 at 12:59

            [QUOTE]
            Sigh, it’s more likely that DD Palmer was first exposed to spinal manipulation by Bohemian bonesetters in the Davenport area who called their therapy napravit (to fix, to repair).

            But whatever, have a nice life.
            [/QUOTE]

            Luke, the cognitive dissonance is strong in this one.

            It doesn’t matter whether Palmer stole the stupidity from one idiot or another bunch of idiots. All that matters is that is it is an idiotic idea without any foundation in evidence. What is it with chiros; no matter how stupid an idea, they will not see their metaphorical feet are on sand?

            Chiros do nothing but exploit the scientific illiteracy of the majority of the population for only one reason, to steal their money. Like all chiros, you are a thief. Save people from cancer, no; burn off warts, no; transplant kidneys, no; reset broken limbs, no; create vaccines, no; remove cataracts, no; in fact, nothing useful. Chiros are the anal warts on the sphincter of humanity and you typify the usual nonsensical response.

          • FC…It doesn’t matter whether Palmer stole the stupidity from one idiot or another bunch of idiots. All that matters is that is it is an idiotic idea without any foundation in evidence.

            Really Frank, if your going to bring up chiropractic and/or spinal manipulation history you should be familiar with it because you appear to be ignorant on the topic.

            The first appearance of the potential benefits of spinal manipulation that I am aware of in a medical journal was published in the Lancet in 1871 by Hood, MD. This was 24 years before DD so called first adjustment.

            DD Palmer’s early writings focused on the neurobiology of spinal manipulation. It wasn’t until around 1906 that he began incorporating “intelligence” into his writings. It’s probably no coincidence that this was about the same time the AMA came after him for practicing medicine without a license (as they did with the osteopaths as well) and put DD in jail. Some say it’s because the AMA saw DOs and DCs as competition and the medical doctors were losing too much of the public to these other forms of care.

            It’s after this that DD began to incorporate the “religious” aspects of chiropractic perhaps to avoid prosecution (persecution?) by the AMA.

            Yes, it’s unfortunate that this view is still held by some of the profession. I have had many discussions with these folks, they cannot be reasoned with. Same lack of reasoning as with pseudoskeptics, which I consider you as one.

            But feel free to continue to look ignorant on the topics, I won’t stop you.

      • http://www.ces.fau.edu/nasa/introduction/scientific-inquiry/why-must-scientists-be-skeptics.php

        Why is maintaining a skeptical outlook so important? Skepticism helps scientists to remain objective when performing scientific inquiry and research. It forces them to examine claims (their own and those of others) to be certain that there is sufficient evidence to back them up.

        • Frank Collins I cant repeat in quotation marks your usual unfortunate choice of words towards all Chiropractors.

          But I would just like to say my chiropractor doesn’t steal my money: I happily pay for a very effective and professiona treatment. And judging by the volume of clients, many have the same view. No white coat, no pretence to be a medical doctor and no chat about the for and against of vaccinations: just old fashioned chiropractic and thank goodness for it.

  • @Bart B: ?. And I can’t recall a magician accidentally killing anyone. At least not with their hands…

    • And I can’t recall a magician accidentally killing anyone. At least not with their hands…

      I do remember the Siegfried & Roy case. However, except for the magician himself, nobody got hurt, so I am not even sure that case is acceptable ^_^
      On the whole, chiropractic seems quite a bit more dangerous. And also less fun.

  • Chiropractic treatment works in a great way. Really helpful.

    [url to chiropractic business deleted by Admin for spam]

    • FINALLY!
      the evidence we all have been waiting for.

    • https://www.innatefamilychiro.com/

      Another loonbag chiro outfit based on vitalism and subluxations, as well as abusing babies and children. No scruples at all.

      [QUOTE]
      the power that made the body, heals the body.
      – B.J. Palmer
      [/QUOTE}

      [QUOTE]
      prenatal & pediatric care
      A well aligned spine in mom is essential to the well-being and comfort throughout pregnancy. Chiropractic care has helped with many conditions in children including, but not limited to: breastfeeding difficulties, sleeping difficulties, bedwetting, asthma and ear infections, just to name a few.
      [/QUOTE]

  • Imagine the irony of (a) DC suggesting someone has ‘useless ramblings’. It would be very helpful, and very comical if you could publish a transcript of the verbal-ramblings i.e. machinations you use to connive a “patient” to get multiple treatments at your chiroquackery clinic…..speaking of useless. My guess: “well Mrs. Smith, albeit chiroquackery doesn’t really affect the source or course of your problem, and even if it did neither you nor I would have any way of knowing it….excepting pretending my diagnostic gypsy tricks actually had any validity….which they don’t. However, like wishing on a falling a star it’s always worth a try, I am after all a highly trained doctor, cough, cough, having insights real doctors or physical therapists simply don’t have, namely I’m a vessel for God….not to brag. And I need your insurance payments to continue to allow him to use me in my healing mission”. Or something like that??

  • “FC…It doesn’t matter whether Palmer stole the stupidity from one idiot or another bunch of idiots. All that matters is that is it is an idiotic idea without any foundation in evidence.
    Really Frank, if your going to bring up chiropractic and/or spinal manipulation history you should be familiar with it because you appear to be ignorant on the topic”.
    So (a) DC, we’re all still trying to understand….WHY the hell are you a follower, disciple, perpetrator of the idiotic miscreant and his propositions? Clearly IF you were truly dedicated to what you say you’d be an accountant, a carpenter or a professional skeptic. Not a “chiropractor”…the moniker to which Palmer built his entire house of cards?
    I’m guessing financial-entrenchment trumps reason and truth?

    • Kenny…So (a) DC, we’re all still trying to understand….WHY the hell are you a follower, disciple, perpetrator of the idiotic miscreant and his propositions?

      When did I say that I follow, disciple or perpetrator of DD Palmer propositions?

      • Non-D, C,
        It is prima facie. If you are a chiro, you follow the cult of chiro. However, as you pretend to be a rationalist, please tell us when chiro became part of evidence-based? An exact date isn’t needed, the year or even half decade will do. While you’re at it, the evidence on which you base this would also be appreciated.

        Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh. That’s me taking a deep breath and holding it waiting for the answer.

      • DC you and many of your alleged less-dogmatic brethren seem to all try to obviate the historical-roots and foundation of chiroquackery. In fact you appear to want to extirpate it’s very essence: “chiropractic is connected to, and important for human “health””. You seem to deny that its’ procedures, thus the validity of its diagnosis (subluxation) is not a fundamental principle. Of course where the fraud begins is whenever it is intimated that: “chiroquackery is healthcare, or has the capacity to effect “health”.
        Wouldn’t it be equally odd if a man called himself a priest, “father”, reverend yet denied any connection to the New Testament, Peter or the deceased Jew? Or if someone started a political party and opted to use the moniker Nazi, but denied any of its principles or shibboleths were related to Hitler? Onlookers would be rightfully confused and rightfully skeptical. And likely recognize they were being SCAMMED.

  • Evidence: Constant ad or information on our media about failed surgery or meds or the side effects of med or the high-cost thanks to the greed of the pharmaceutical cartel is driving patients to chiropractic clinics. I have medical doctors and nurses seeing me for treatment; one MD had a rib out of place and meds couldn’t touch that. My school University of Western States taught us medicine and minor surgery, I delivered babies while I was in school, the chiro that taught us proctology was a surgeon that did anal surgery as we were allowed to do these things in Oregon as so few MD in the rural areas. I have no complaints about MD but they have issues too, and for back and neck pain go to a MD and he/she doesn’t know what to do – I do as a chiropractor. We have a place in the sun.

  • I think that victims can better talk about the problem than anyone. Everybody should really read about neck adjustment and arteries dissections…or talk to a neurologist about the bad cases they’ve seen.
    So many damages….

  • you all know any trusted Chiros in Atlanta that can crack a good one out?

  • I am a folk healer and have used all types of holistic healing practices on myself with other healers, except chiropractic and always knew never to use it. My last client had been going to a chiro for about seven years and she still had tense shoulders and neck pain. I did two years of energy work and she was completely healed because I also side by side, worked with her emotional issues which was the main problem ten years earlier when her neck and back started holding emotional stress. It was the combo of both emotional support and practices and energy work. I know her today 12 years later and without this type of help, I can guarantee she would still be seeing her chiropractor.

  • Ha ha!! very nice. Absolutely true from my own experience.

    [SPAM: Link to chiro website in Florida deleted by admin. This comment was submitted from an IP address in India.]

  • Can’t help wondering why ALL 32 NFL teams retain doctors of chiropractic on their treatment staffs?
    Or why an estimated 90% of ALL Olympic, professional, and elite athletes worldwide incorporate regular chiropractic treatment into their training and injury recovery regimens?

    I guess it’s because these folks — many with multi-million dollar contracts negotiated solely on the efficiency and functionality of their nervous and musculoskeletal systems — are idiots who have been duped by charlatan chiropractors, selling them snake oil and pipe dreams.

    Are there frauds in the profession who ought to be jailed or horsewhipped? ABSOLUTELY!.. as there are in EVERY profession… including an enormous number in MEDICINE, I might add. But, based on my personal experience as a chiropractic patient in 1980 (life changing for the better, after I had literally been offered “exploratory” neck surgery by a ..quack?… surgeon); AND my 35 years and counting, of chiropractic practice, I can GUARANTEE everyone reading this ridiculous piece of journalistic trash, that quality chiropractic care, delivered by an experienced, talented doctor of chiropractic is absolutely PHENOMENAL, an.d in many cases life changing

    • ” quality chiropractic care, delivered by an experienced, talented doctor of chiropractic is absolutely PHENOMENAL”
      pity that you have no evidence for your assertions.

    • John Manning, Jr., DC said:

      Can’t help wondering why ALL 32 NFL teams retain doctors of chiropractic on their treatment staffs?

      I briefly checked the websites of a couple of NFL teams at random and found no mention of having a chiro on their staff. I see two possibilities here: a) they don’t like advertising they have a chiro; b) your statement is just false. Which is it, do you think?

  • Every team has two chiropractors, maybe not paid staff but they all have two. Athletes are really into woo stuff, watch the olympics or any sport game. Many have weird athletic tape on person, invented by a chiropractor, some have cupping marks, woo, it goes on and on. A very expensive thumper device is very admired by athletes, invented by a chiropractor, it costs 700 US dollars, essentially an impact drill with soft tip. Athletes also are paid by sponsors of woo but many believe in it, becomes like a ritual that can’t be stopped.

  • I have no medical education. I have practical experience with a Chiropractor. After I was rear ended my law firm insist, I go to the clinic. I went 10 times. They kept referring to the “treatment plan”. I never saw one. They wanted me to have “adjustments” which hurt me, and I stopped that. Instead they had me lay on a message table for 10 minutes and billed me at 30 minutes. Then they wanted me to get an MRI and I declined. Next thing I know I was being “released” for being non-compliant to their treatment plan. Sad to say that this is a true story. I saw “no significant objective improvement with these unnecessary senseless procedures” – no measurable results. But they did send the auto insurance carrier a bill for over 8,000 dollars. I see this as fraud and I can not believe they are allowed to do this. One thing I learned while sitting in their waiting room with 20 others is that we had no medical insurance and that was why we were there. The law firms drive the Chiroprator “business” and they pray on the poor. Never once saw a bill or a treatment plan!

  • I am a practicing DC of 35 years clinical experience, with extensive background in post-graduate teaching in diagnosis and manipulative procedures for NMS conditions typically addressed by chiropractors. I might be of some use in participating in this duscussion, on various points, but before commenting on the notion that there are no significant studies or scientific evidence for the mechanisms and effectiveness of manual procedures, it would help prevent me from duplicating your efforts if you would be so kind as to let me know beforehand which science search engines you have already explored and led you to dead ends. Thank you.

    • Good luck Bruce, do not hold your breath.

      • Kiwi Chiro (giblet Giblet),
        Do you have any evidence, that is, the type found by real research, not chiro anecdotes?

        • This is a very big subject, so it may be helpful to break it down into more manageable pieces. First off, the most common aspect that chiro critics like to attack is the concept of “subluxation” or the “subluxation complex.” And, I agree. The word subluxation already has an orthopedic definition, that of describing a disruption of a joint’s articular surfaces, possibly involving less than optimal “alignment” but less than a luxation, which is synonymous with a complete articular dislocation. Back in the days when chiropractic was developing, in the late 1800’s and early 1900’s, understanding of joint function and pain syndromes was very crude, as was the “manipulable lesion” that seemed to be affected by manipulation and mobilization procedures. X-ray wasn’t developed until about 1895, so Palmer postulated that vertebral segments may be “misaligned” and then perhaps “re-aligned” post-manipulation, as joint movements are certainly felt by the patient and practitioner alike, often along with the “popping” noise that is created by joint cavitation. These phenomena combined led to an easy to understand, albeit wrong, explanation of what is happening inside the patient when a manipulation is performed. The academic elite of chiropractic have long since abandoned these early models, and the literature is clear that there are no “little bones out of place” as Bourdillon put it. At least not that can be ‘re-aligned” by manipulation, case in point the multiple segments involved in a scoliotic curve can’t be “straightened” with a manipulative thrust. And, scoliosis is largely known as a symptomless disorder, unless severe, thus further weakening the theory that it is malalignment that is the clinical factor driving symptoms and joint degeneration. So, if we are going to discuss spinal manipulative therapy, the pain and dysfunction syndromes it addresses, articular neurology and biomechanics, from this point forward we have to abandon the old Tinker Toy chiropractic theories of a century ago. I will stipulate that, yes, some of the chiropractic colleges still include some of these old ideas in their curricula, and we are our own worst enemy sometimes when it comes to moving forward with better concepts of NMS conditions and how manual medicine works and is best applied. Shall we start from there?

          • Actually Bruce, do you mind if I call you Bruce? It is a VERY small subject if you ask a chiroquacker to demonstrate one true scientific advancement brought to us by “chiropractic science” which has genuinely enhanced the human condition and advanced human knowledge and understanding of ANYTHING….other than how BIG conniving, lying and entrepreneurial theatrics masquerading as healthcare can get. Fortunately the number of you quacks remains small.

          • Michael, of course you can call me Bruce. I apologize for intervening here. I am new to this blog, and I was under the impression it was a place for scientific discourse, but it looks as though you’ve already chosen an immovable position. I don’t foresee any further useful discussion. Best to you.

          • Bruce,
            Please, your attempt at the high ground falls far short.

            If you are going to come up with rubbish like this, “I am new to this blog, and I was under the impression it was a place for scientific discourse, but it looks as though you’ve already chosen an immovable position.”, it is best you don’t participate in any conversation above your level of understanding.

            The “immovable position” is yours; it can also be labelled unsustainable because you have no evidence. Typical chiro lack of logic.

          • Frank, I’m not sure I understand what you mean. Perhaps if you type more slowly…………:)

          • Frank,

            Typical chiro lack of logic.

            Is this the language of scientific discourse?

          • @Bruce Weary on Tuesday 14 January 2020 at 15:29

            Bruce, me typing more slowly won’t improve your levels of comprehension or understanding, so sorry.

          • @ Dr Julian Money-Kyrle on Tuesday 14 January 2020 at 11:51

            “Is this the language of scientific discourse?”

            Michael Kenny has provided a response with which I thoroughly concur. Why you asked the question is beyond me?

            If chiros had an ounce of scientific understanding, they wouldn’t be chiros anymore. To have a ‘scientific discourse’ with a chiro is as ridiculous as the alleged conversation the convicted criminal Palmer had with the deaf janitor before “curing” the deafness by thumping or twisting his neck. What chiros seem to not understand is the vestibulocochlear nerve does NOT pass between any vertebrae.

            BTW, do you do other than snide, supercilious and sanctimonious?

    • Bruce,
      There is no research that supports chiro unequivocally. If you have any, now is the time.

      • “Is this the language of scientific discourse”….
        Darwin said: “ignorance more often begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much who so positively assert that this or that problem can never be solved by science”.
        Since Chiroquackery is a dogma NOT a scientific pursuit (name even ONE addition to real science Chiropractic has contributed in the last 60 years) it seems relatively pointless and overly sanguine to address them with scientific-discourse. Much like endeavoring to discuss science at the Ark museum.
        Giving quarter to overt quackery like chiropractic, often disguising and sententiously wrapping itself in a cloak of acceptability by subterfuge and assimilation is a wrong approach for nay sayers.
        Additionally I’d point out IF any of these pretentious faux “doctors” had EVER read the professors’ books i.e. recognized what arguments have already been discounted…many of them may have spared sharing their piffle.

        • That may be so, but I don’t think it helps anybody’s position to be rude. It also seems to me that people here are attacking Bruce because he is a chiropractor, rather than examining critically what he has to say. A few months ago one of those regularly posting here did the same to me after concluding (wrongly) that I held particular religious views that he disagreed with, as if that were the most appropriate criterion by which to judge my words. However, the practice of categorising individuals as THEM or US is rarely an effective way of getting to the truth, and indeed has facilitated the spread of much evil over the course of history.

          • @EE

            As of today, the professor is out.

            I’m nominating Dr. JMK as the new blog message board moderator.

            Hehehe

          • @ Dr Julian Money-Kyrle on Tuesday 14 January 2020 at 17:46

            Why don’t you just refer to me by name rather than as “one of those regularly posting here”. It will unambiguous and less frustrating for those for whom candour is more important than the wholly subjective notion of what constitutes rudeness. A greater rudeness is the wilful ignorance of science in the perpetuation of a sCAM, yet you appear to be accepting of this travesty.

            As for the rest, in that thread (which I have not addressed by many events, including the death of my father-in-law) you defended the idea there may be a god, without citing any evidence at all, ignoring all arguments premised of logic. Yet later, you say you are an atheist and claim the moral high ground. You appear to be one of those people who go out the their way to accommodate ridiculous notions, only so you can’t be said to be rude. In Australian vernacular, this is referred to as getting splinters in the arse from sitting on the fence.

          • Frank,

            I am sorry to hear about your father-in-law. Not only is it sad to lose someone, but there is always so much to do when somebody close is dying, and after they have gone, and all the family upset to deal with. I hope things are starting to settle down for you a little bit now.

            Why don’t you just refer to me by name rather than as “one of those regularly posting here”. It will unambiguous and less frustrating for

            When it comes to the type of discussion on this blog, I feel that what is said is more important than who is saying it. People reading this will not necessarily have read our other exchange and I wanted to make a general point rather than prejudice their judgement of what you have to say on this thread.

            A greater rudeness is the wilful ignorance of science in the perpetuation of a sCAM, yet you appear to be accepting of this travesty.

            If this is your definition of rudeness then I am tempted to wonder how this might reflect on your upbringing. I will add that there is a distinction between rudeness and directness, and the plain-speaking necessary for a scientific debate might be regarded as rudeness in other social contexts.

            you defended the idea there may be a god, without citing any evidence at all, ignoring all arguments premised of logic

            I most certainly did not. My position is that this is not a question which can be addressed by the scientific method, not that it may be true. However, the point I was originally trying to make, before you diverted the subject by mounting a series of challenges to what you had wrongly inferred were my own beliefs,
            is that in my experience it is hardly ever possible to shake an individual’s faith by reasoned argument and that there were better uses of my time and effort. We British have a phrase “banging your head against a brick wall” to describe endeavours of this nature.

            Yet later, you say you are an atheist and claim the moral high ground

            I am not claiming any moral high ground. However, as an atheist I did find your misdirected attacks very strange. It was also plain that, having decided that I was was a believer, you interpreted everything I said on that basis. I did not immediately disabuse you because I did not feel that my personal beliefs had any bearing on the topic under discussion, and I must admit feeling a certain schadenfreude in watching you make a fool of yourself.

            You appear to be one of those people who go out the their way to accommodate ridiculous notions, only so you can’t be said to be rude

            No. As a clinician treating cancer patients I do not feel that the clinical setting is an appropriate one in which to proselytise, and I respect autonomy of my own patients to make their own decisions, which is, after all, enshrined in law. The real-life management of patients is very messy and full of factors which are not addressed by clinical trials, and it cannot be entirely based on the (incomplete) available evidence, however desirable that might be in an ideal world. When it comes to the Fountain Centre, I would let them do their job while I did mine, and while I may not have agreed with everything they were are doing, they provided a valuable service nonetheless. We Brits have another saying: “Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater”.

            I will give you an example. When I was a trainee oncologist, my Consultant was looking after a lady with bowel cancer which had spread to her lungs and liver. She had previously had a very good response to chemotherapy a couple of years earlier, but now had a recurrence and was attending every fortnight for chemotherapy again. She was a professional artist and had donated some of her work to the oncology ward – they were lovely and imaginative pictures of different plants with a connection to cancer treatment, and for all the time I was working there I would often stop to enjoy them when I walked past. Whenever she was admitted, she would start by laying out her crystals round the room to focus their power. Then she would get out her little pots of minerals, vitamins and goodness knows what that she took every day to support her. Finally she would start shaving pieces off a ginger root into a cup of hot water so that she didn’t feel sick from her treatment. She was a lovely lady, and my boss was clearly fond of her. I am pleased to report that she lived for more than ten years with her metastatic disease, and she was off chemotherapy for much longer than she was on it.

            I am sure that there were those that would regard this as a demonstration of the healing power of crystal energy and natural supplements, which of course it isn’t. However, I did learn something from it about the therapeutic relationship between a doctor and their patient, which is a fundamental part of treatment.

          • Jules,

            “I will add that there is a distinction between rudeness and directness, and the plain-speaking necessary for a scientific debate might be regarded as rudeness in other social contexts.”

            It might, should one adopt the quaint notion of accommodating the hypersensitive for whom anything constitutes offence. That we do not engage in robust public debate is premised on this silly idea.

            “My position is that this is not a question which can be addressed by the scientific method, not that it may be true.”

            The question CAN be addressed by the scientific method; those who believe in some celestial fairy can frame a hypothesis, tests can devised, and conclusions can be drawn on the results. Anything else is allowing the delusional the freedom of their delusions, which, if benign, might be sufferable, however, that is not the case and everyone suffers at the hands of crazies who think some fairy has told them something. Most of the problems in the world are due to religion; overpopulation, wars, terrorism, and persecution of minorities.

            Now, for the finale; you preach good manner and frown on rudeness, but the following two statements make you one of the rudest arses on this blog;

            “If this is your definition of rudeness then I am tempted to wonder how this might reflect on your upbringing.”
            “I must admit feeling a certain schadenfreude in watching you make a fool of yourself.”

            Adding to your list of snide, supercilious and sanctimonious is hypocrisy, and I don’t want, or need, any expressions on sympathy or condolences from the insincere.

  • haha what a load of shit.

  • Unfortunately a lot of this is true for chiros such as working outside their scope, ripping off insurance companies/patients, and a whole host of unnecessary procedures. However, that doesn’t mean chiropractic does not work, can’t help someone and isn’t enjoyed by millions of people to help them live a better life. If the first time I used toilet paper was at a gas station where it was paper thin sandpaper I would have thought this stuff really sucks. That wouldn’t mean toilet paper doesn’t work.

    • Zach,
      Like most, if not all, chiros, logic isn’t your long suit, as even a cursory examination of your post shows.

      Your use of the dunny (Australian vernacular) paper analogy only illustrates your ignorance of the False Equivalency Logical Fallacy (and a bit of the Red Herring too). It also serves to underscore the failure of chiros to understand simple aspects of science, such as the burden of proof, the null hypothesis, and what constitutes meaningful research. I am sure you are fond on the title ‘doctor’, however, what you understand of medicine compared with a real doctor is chalk and cheese.

      You are a subluxationist, as your website clearly and unambiguously states; the first of many of your problems. In the 125 years since Palmer (a convicted and jailed conman and thief) invented chiro for the gullible, not one instance of subluxation has ever been presented for scrutiny and verification. This is so much so even mainstream chiro has abandoned the idea and now refers to it as the ‘subluxation complex’. If you have any evidence (real evidence, not chiro evidence, ie, anecdotes), then please, I am ‘all ears”. I won’t, however, hold my breath in anticipation.

      The burden of proof of chiro has never been attempted, let alone shown, and all available evidence shows it does nothing normal conservative treatment can, most times worse. No doubt you believe chiro to be real and positive, but it is all bullshit, except for the quite substantial income you draw from it. If you can find anything in the Cochrane Collaboration to offer unqualified support to chiro, please present it?

      Sadly, for everyone including you, all you do is fiddle about with the worried well and take their money unethically.

  • With all due respect, Frank, is it your understanding that research often leads to “unequivocal” support of the things it investigates? Here is a useful quote from Labinger and Weininger:

    “The facts speak for themselves.” Well … in science as in life, sometimes yes and
    oftentimes no. The very process of turning scientific data into “facts” can itself be
    contentious, so that even at this level the “facts” may be far from universally agreed
    upon. Even when they are, assessing their larger significance is an interpretive process
    that frequently leads to disagreement or worse. In brief, the normal practice of science
    provides ample opportunity for controversy; indeed, it is the rare scientist who has not
    followed, if not participated in, a vigorous scientific controversy that has stretched out for
    months or even years.”

    • No Bruce,
      I understand that. Nice try at Red Herring and Straw Man though. Fancy a chiro using Logical Fallacies, who would have thought?

      I asked for unequivocal evidence for the efficacy of chiro, and, of course, there is none. Are all chiros as logically immature as you? (Sorry, rhetorical question, for those of limited understanding.)

      • Frank, I’d like to get your impressions of this definition of manipulation, which I happen to ascribe to:

        Manipulation involves the application of accurately determined, and specifically directed, manual forces to the body. The objective is to improve mobility in the areas that are restricted, whether the restrictions are within joint, connective tissue, or in skeletal muscles. The consequences may be the improvement of posture and locomotion, relief of pain and discomfort, the improvement of function elsewhere in the body, and the enhancement of the sense of well being.

        • the definition of a wishful thinker

          • One often gets in trouble shooting from the hip. That is the Definition of Manipulation put forth by the AMA Orthopedic Council in 1983. Oops. The bias here is astounding, all the while being passed off as legitimate scientific scrutiny or skepticism.

          • so what?
            are you saying that this body was infallible?
            THE DEFINITION IS NONSENSE!

        • @ Bruce Weary on Tuesday 14 January 2020 at 16:14

          Bruce,
          “Manipulation involves the application of accurately determined, and specifically directed, manual forces to the body.”

          No argument.

          “The objective is to improve mobility in the areas that are restricted, whether the restrictions are within joint, connective tissue, or in skeletal muscles.”

          To have an objective, one should have an understanding of the mechanism by which it will be achieved. This is nothing but pissing in the wind.

          “The consequences may be the improvement of posture and locomotion, relief of pain and discomfort, the improvement of function elsewhere in the body, and the enhancement of the sense of well being.”

          The magic words here are ‘may be an improvement”, wishful thinking, and “the improvement of function elsewhere in the body, and the enhancement of the sense of well being”, which is pissing into a hurricane.

          The purported definition is only a mask for chiro theatrics and serves no useful purpose.

          • To have an objective, one should have an understanding of the mechanism by which it will be achieved. This is nothing but pissing in the wind.

            Which I would not advise if the objective were to empty your bladder (though of course it would still be achieved).

          • Jules,
            Que? As I asked before, do you have an other than snide, supercilious and sanctimonious?

        • Ah Bruce, don’t bring me down: I’d be interested in your listing of “tests” you utilize that have SCIENTIFICALLY-demonstrated VALIDITY & RELIABILITY in determining a spinal “segment” ain’t moving “normally”. If there were such tests then by hypothetical syllogism the iconic though mysterious “sub-luxation” wouldn’t be a chimera but a medical-standard finding for intervention.
          I suggest when discussing your pecuniary reward system (chiroquackery) you give a moment of consideration to hyper-mobile segments (as discussed by McGill and Bogduk among others) and at least momentarily envision a spine whose hyper-mobile segments are (at least theoretically) a cause of local spinal pain…and that thrusting on them is ehh, counterproductive? And assuming your magical-palpation skills could actually “feel” a restricted C3 above a hyper-mobile C4…HTF do you propose your “thrust” ain’t moving the hyper-mobile one??? Haven’t studied shown the “cracking-sound” is 50% of the time NOT from the “target segment”? My guess: the CRACK is ALWAYS from a mobile or hyper-mobile segment. IF you are suggesting you can “move” a spinal segment INNATE has, in its wisdom “restricted” ain’t you breaching DDs first law?
          And in either case putting the patient at risk? I suggest YOU cannot know the underlying mechanics nor how they relate to any pain.
          And one further theoretic consideration: is the ultimate point of fusion surgery to “restrict” intervertebral motion…which is often defined as “instability”? And often failed surgery is defined as an incomplete reduction-of-motion, OR a segment above or below the fusion then becoming “unstable” i.e. moving too much or inappropriately? If all you have is a hammer….

          • Now we’re getting somewhere. Somebody read a book. But, before I respond, I would be interested in reactions to this:

            https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/demand-better-health-care-book/

          • @Bruce Weary

            “I would be interested in reactions to this”

            You’re relatively new to this blog and the tone of your comments suggests you are keen to debate with those who regard chiropractic as nonsense. The link you provide is to an article explaining how only a small proportion of “orthodox” medical treatments is actually supported by scientific evidence. In other words you have introduced the logical fallacy known as tu quoque. Look it up.

            It will get you nowhere here. Read around the threads and you’ll see it’s been pointed out many times that, because aeroplanes crash from time to time that’s no reason to start believing that magic carpets can fly. This blog is about pseudo-medicine. We know genuine medicine is far from perfect, but at least it understands how science works and learns from the findings of proper experiments.

            Pseudo-medicine, e.g. chiropractic, operates in a niche that appeals to people ignorant of biomedicine but who like folksy-sounding approaches to therapy even though they originated from someone’s rectum and remain unsupported by hard evidence for their efficacy

            Why don’t you try addressing the questions Michael Kenny has put to you instead of trying to lumber exponents of real medicine with implications of hypocrisy? We already have a pair of trolls called Roger and RG who do this on a daily basis.

  • Well, Edzard, if you are truly committed, your next move will be to call the AMA and give them an earful as to their errant ways. I’m sure they’d love to hear from you. Remember, they are a group of scientifically trained, clinically experienced surgeons, who, in service to the AMA and it’s members, chose to serve on the committee, and after a preponderance of the evidence, derived this definition, adopted it as a formal clinical position statement, making it available to not only AMA members, but to practitioners of all types world wide. Quite a mess to clean up. Better get started.

    • Bruce,
      The prof (note; he is now a professor emeritus, distinguished in his field) is an expert in the field of sCAM, not surgery. What you fail to understand,either wilfully or from sheer ignorance, is (real) medicine has mechanisms in place to catch and correct anomalies or errors, unlike chiro which perpetuates the same nonsense.

  • Today had a chiropractor manipulate my SI joint (disjointed), it’s my second visit and he was with me for about 5 minutes, this visit cost me $85, his manipulation is so gentle that I don’t think he’s doing much, one on the right side and one on the left, plus a couple of push motions on the spine. He advise me to pay for 12 visits up front, I’m so glad I didn’t.
    Enough said

  • Multitudes of people seek the care of a chiropractor on a regular basis. There are many benefits of chiropractic care that will ultimately increase the quality of life. https://www.lehighvalleychiropractors.com/

    • @James the Quackopractor,
      Not only do you offer chirononsense but pins and magic potions. I can, however, see some point in the complete bullshit you pretend to be a form of treatment; the poor gullible person will have a much lighter wallet to carry and, thus, help alleviate back problems.

      Seriously, do you really believe the nonsense peddled by a jailed confidence trickster who stole the idea from another discredited crackpot? Are chiros really as stupid as their posts suggest? (Sorry, rhetorical question, if you understand simple English.)

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