It has been reported that the PLASTIC SURGERY INSTITUTE OF ·UTAH, INC.; MICHAEL KIRK MOORE JR.; KARI DEE BURGOYNE; KRISTIN JACKSON ANDERSEN; AND SANDRA FLORES, stand accused of running a scheme out of the Plastic Surgery Institute of Utah, Inc. to defraud the United States and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

Dr. Michael Kirk Moore, Jr. and his co-defendants at the Plastic Surgery Institute of Utah have allegedly given falsified vaccine cards to people in exchange for their donating $50 to an unnamed organization, one which exists to “liberate the medical profession from government and industry conflicts of interest.” As part of the scheme, Moore and his co-defendants are accused of giving children saline injections so that they would believe they were really being vaccinated.

The co-defendants are Kari Dee Burgoyne, an office manager at the Plastic Surgery Institute of Utah; Sandra Flores, the office’s receptionist; and, strangest of all, a woman named Kristin Jackson Andersen, who according to the indictment is Moore’s neighbor. Andersen has posted copious and increasingly conspiratorial anti-vaccine content on Facebook and Instagram; Dr. Moore himself was a signatory on a letter expressing support for a group of COVID-skeptical doctors whose certification was under review by their respective medical boards. The letter expresses support for ivermectin, a bogus treatment for COVID.

According to the indictment, the Plastic Surgery Center of Utah was certified as a real vaccine provider and signed a standard agreement with the CDC, which among other things requires doctor’s offices not to “sell or seek reimbursement” for vaccines.

Prosecutors allege that, when people seeking falsified vaccine cards contacted the office, Burgoyne, the office manager, referred them to Andersen, Dr. Moore’s neighbor. Andersen, according to the indictment, would ask for the name of someone who’d referred them—it had to be someone who’d previously received a fraudulent vaccine card, per the indictment—then direct people to make a $50 donation to a charitable organization, referred to in the indictment only as “Organization 1.” Each vaccine card seeker was required to put an orange emoji in the memo line of their donation.

After making a donation to the unnamed charitable organization, prosecutors allege, Andersen would send a link to vaccine card seekers to enable them to make an appointment at the Plastic Surgery Institute. With adult patients, Moore would allegedly use a real COVID vaccine dose in a syringe, but squirt it down the drain. Flores, the office’s receptionist, gave an undercover agent a note, reading “with 18 & younger, we do a saline shot,” meaning that kids were injected with saline instead of a vaccine. Prosecutors allege the team thus disposed of at least 1,937 doses of COVID vaccines.

All four people are charged with conspiracy to defraud the United States; conspiracy to convert, sell, convey, and dispose of government property; and conversion, sale, conveyance, and disposal of government property and aiding and abetting.

Throughout the scheme, the group reported the names of all the vaccine seekers to the Utah Statewide Immunization Information System, indicating that the practice had administered 1,937 doses of COVID-19 vaccines, which included 391 pediatric doses. The value of all the doses totaled roughly $28,000. With the money from the $50 vaccination cards totaling nearly $97,000, the scheme was valued at nearly $125,000, federal prosecutors calculated.

“By allegedly falsifying vaccine cards and administering saline shots to children instead of COVID-19 vaccines, not only did this provider endanger the health and well-being of a vulnerable population, but also undermined public trust and the integrity of federal health care programs,” Curt Muller, special agent in charge with the Department of Health and Human Services for the Office of the Inspector General, said in a statement.



I am already baffled by anti-vax attitudes when they originate from practitioners of so-called alternative medicine (SCAM). When they come from real physicians and are followed by real actions, I am just speechless. As I stated many times before: studying medicine does unfortunately not protect you from recklessness, greed, or stupidity.

105 Responses to The plastic surgeon who turned fraudulent anti-vaxer

  • quote
    “I am already baffled by anti-vax attitudes when they originate from practitioners of so-called alternative medicine (SCAM). When they come from real physicians and are followed by real actions, I am just speechless.“

    Why does an “anti-vaxxer” and a “real physician” switch from being a “vaxxer” to being an “antivaxxer” – does that not interest you? E.g. why did Dr Robert Malone have two mRNA injections and then become an “anti-vaxxer”? – are you not curious about that?

    • very curious!

    • @Old Bob

      Why does an “anti-vaxxer” and a “real physician” switch from being a “vaxxer” to being an “antivaxxer” – does that not interest you?

      This is a legitimate question, and the answer is that even quite smart people sometimes start believing (and doing) very stupid things.

      Now here’s a related question in return:
      If those real doctors and scientists thought they had very good reasons to become anti-vaccine, then why didn’t the remaining ~99.99% of real doctors follow their example?

      • Fear – to question the FDA, CDC, NIAID, NIH etc is the end of one’s career and the destruction of one’s reputation.

        • @Old Bob
          So what you’re saying is that 99.99% of doctors in fact agree with those anti-vaccine people, but are afraid to speak their mind for fear of their careers and livelihoods?

          So 99.99% of doctors knowingly and willingly harm and even kill people on a large scale by administering and promoting vaccines (which after all is what those anti-vaccine people claim), and deprive patients entrusted to them of good care, because they think that their careers are more important than people’s lives?

          So 99.99% of doctors are in fact horrible people, monsters even?

          Because that is what you imply.

    • Consider the case of Andrew Wakefield. He trained and qualified as a real doctor before turning fraudster and anti vaxxer. Why would a small time doctor do such a thing? Surely it couldn’t be for the money ( lots of it), the fame ( or notoriety ), the opportunity to hang out with ex-presidents and super-supermodels?

      And clever people can and do believe stupid things. It takes a certain intelligence to study enough science and philosophy to then twist them in support of beliefs such as anthroposophy. When tangling with anthros I constantly come up against perversions of Kuhn’s notion of a paradigm shift. No wonder the poor man ended up hating any mention of the term.

      • Dr Andrew Wakefield was right, but because he is ignored, the USA (the most vaccinated nation in the world) now has ASD rates of 1 in 36:

        • oh dear – are you a bit stupid?

        • Do I need to point out Wakefield’s well-documented financial conflicts of interest? Not to mention that he was a gastro-enterologist and had bog all training and exerience in autism (he qualified in 1981, i.e. a couple of years before Lorna Wing even coined the term Asperger’s Syndrome)? Or that most of the assessment tools we use for assessing autism were developed after Wakefield, after MMR, and that back in those days follk in the relevant areas of healthcare, self included, knew bugger all about autism and autism assessment?

  • 🤫 There is also a surgeon in northern Bavaria who mutated into anti-vaxxer.

    Mr. Dykta

    otherwise known:

    Totally in fear of masks:

    And as SCAM-expert of the so-called “Corona Ausschuss”—Sitzung-56-Mit-h%C3%B6llischen-Latwergen:d

    numerous complaints to the medical association without success


  • Despite the usual tropes saying wrongly that doctors and nurses get paid for it, there is actually nomoney in being a “vaxer”.
    Lots of money however in being antivaxer, if your morals aren’t in the way. I suspect many antivaxxers are morally blind at least the money-makers.

    • @Born Geir

      The “money” in being a vaxer (MD) is directly related with NOT being cancelled and losing the medical license, as some MD’s experienced, and many MD’s feared.

    • @Björn Geir
      Wow! I would love to find out where I can capitalize on all this anti-vaxer money that you say is out there.

      Maybe you are projecting your own moral blindness, certainly blind to what the “anti-vaxxers” are documenting. Not aware of moral blindness any in the so-called anti-vaxxer crowd who have mostly lost their standing, their livelihoods and been abused for their principled stands on the issues of the current crop of experimental gene therapies, masquerading as vaccines.

      • @stan

        Not aware of moral blindness any in the so-called anti-vaxxer crowd who have mostly lost their standing, their livelihoods and been abused for their principled stands on the issues of the current crop of experimental gene therapies, masquerading as vaccines.

        If someone in a medical profession insists on spreading harmful lies such as the ones you keep spreading (even in the above sentence), then they should bear the consequences.

        And yes, these people should absolutely lose their jobs, because they are a danger to society in general and their patients in particular, as they can’t be trusted to provide good healthcare or even healthcare advice.

        • You are very sure of your evidence – where is it?

          As opposed to this:

          • @Old Bob
            Why do you keep spreading lies?

            You are very sure of your evidence – where is it?

            The whole point is that there is NO evidence – of vaccines being harmful, that is.

            As opposed to this: [substack crap]

            This is just some person without any knowledge of medicine whatsoever parroting the fabrications of Edward Dowd – who himself is just a bean counter, without any relevant education or knowledge in the field of medicine. And you – equally illiterate in this field – keep repeating these second-hand lies.

            All that those figures just show that yes, there are excess deaths, likely related to the Covid-19 pandemic. However any link between those excess deaths and vaccines so far is exclusively negative. As in: there is no evidence at all supporting the notion that Covid vaccines cause deaths – while there IS evidence that Covid vaccines prevent deaths – millions of deaths.

            So all we have is a handful of imbeciles who keep spreading unfounded lies about Covid vaccines being harmful – much like those imbeciles who keep insisting that childhood vaccines are responsible for autism, autoimmune disorders, brain damage, inflammatory diseases and about any and every other ailment under the sun.
            I think we should accept that we will always have liars and imbeciles in our midst … (which is not to say that we should accept their lies and misinformation).

          • Richard Rasker said:
            “while there IS evidence that Covid vaccines prevent deaths – millions of deaths.”

            Only 3 million, why not 20 million?:

            Both are guess work. Decide in advance how many would have lived, then subtract from that those living:

          • @Old Bob

            Only 3 million, why not 20 million?

            ‘Only’ 3 million in the US, and some 20 million worldwide.

            Both are guess work.

            This once again betrays your profound ignorance on the subject, as well as a horrible grasp of even basic maths.

            The first waves of Covid-19 killed at least 1% of the unvaccinated overall population in western countries, and still about 0.4% of the population in less developed countries (as those latter populations have significantly lower numbers of old people).
            This means that in the US, at least 3.4 million people would have died if the disease would have been allowed to run its course unchecked. Most estimates are even significantly higher, as the healthcare system would have collapsed in that case. So yes, Covid countermeasures and vaccines have prevented an estimated 3 million deaths in the US alone.
            Worldwide, about 0.4% of 8 billion people would have died, equating to 28 million people. Once again, vaccination has prevented an estimated three quarters of that number of deaths.

            … [Norman Fenton] …

            Ah, yes, the world-famous epidemiologist and virologist … oh, wait, no: he’s just another bean counter who thinks that being good in maths qualifies him to comment on epidemiology and vaccines.
            Tsk tsk …

          • The-powers-that-be can hardly make any of these claims at all, when they admit they do not know how many people are hospitalised for covid:


  • A US Representative has just introduced a bill to allow the US government agencies to strip the unique billing number the person uses to bill the government for claimed vaccinations.
    Apparently some persisted after conviction because the billing identifier could not be cancelled.

  • Better to give out falsified vaccine “cards” than to give falsified vaccines, which arent really vaccines since they dont confer immunity e.g. the mRNA experimental gene therapies. Better to give out these cards, than to require them of people, requiring them to give up medical privacy in order to submit to some abusive control regime, that doesnt accomplish anything worthwhile.

    • @stan

      Better to give out falsified vaccine “cards” …

      So what you’re saying is that doctors should commit fraud when they feel like it. Which of course is not surprising coming from someone who defends SCAM artists and spreads lies and misinformation as a matter of routine.

      … than to give falsified vaccines, which arent really vaccines since they dont confer immunity e.g. the mRNA experimental gene therapies.

      What a wonderfully efficient example of no less than four colossal lies in one sentence:
      – mRNA vaccines are absolutely vaccines, as they prevent people from falling seriously ill and dying. And no, you are not the one who gets to define what is and isn’t a vaccine.
      – mRNA vaccines absolutely confer immunity – both to the vaccine recipients themselves and to society, the latter by preventing people from getting sick and contagious. The only drawback is that this immunity wanes again over the course of time, but that also happens not only with several other vaccines, but also natural immunity, i.e. from the infection itself.
      – mRNA vaccines are not experimental at all; they have been tested on humans for almost two decades now, without any serious drawbacks.
      – mRNA vaccines are most certainly not gene therapy, as they don’t involve (let alone modify) human DNA in any way. They simply incite human cells to produce one particular viral protein, which is then recognized by the immune system.

      But let me ask you a question: these things must have been explained to you countless times already – and even your rather limited intelligence should by now be able to grasp the basics. So why do you keep on parroting the same old anti-vaccine lies over and over again? Or is this simply your way of trolling?

      Anyway, thank you for yet another opportunity to show what’s wrong with anti-vaccine narratives, and why doctors who spread them should be punished.

      • Are you really sure you want to say that?

        The just-released General Dynamics Information Technology contract and monthly reports to the FDA say otherwise – they expected 1,000 VAERS reports and got over that in the first week, going up during the first year to over 40,000 per month – it’s a disaster.

        • @Old Bob

          they expected 1,000 VAERS reports…

          This is a lie. When Covid-19 vaccines were introduced, EVERYONE (vaccine recipients, doctors, healthcare workers) was explicitly encouraged – and in certain cases even required by law – to file a report for any adverse events they experienced or observed. The reason for this is simple: VAERS is used to signal potential problems with vaccines, and especially new vaccines should be monitored as closely as possible,

          … and got over that in the first week, going up during the first year to over 40,000 per month – it’s a disaster.

          Nope, completely wrong again. That significant number of reports(*) was not only expected, it tells us that it was a great success. And actual follow-up research into those hundreds of thousands of reports showed that the vaccines were extremely safe. To date, no deaths or other permanent harm have been positively linked to Covid-19 vaccines; the worst side effects were self-limiting cases of myocarditis and the odd allergic reaction.

          And oh, then there’s this: VAERS explicitly says that The number of reports alone cannot be interpreted as evidence of a causal association between a vaccine and an adverse event, or as evidence about the existence, severity, frequency, or rates of problems associated with vaccines..
          But I can fully appreciate that highly complex sentences such as the above completely exceed your reading capabilities, which presumably are still at the level of See Spot Run, so this oversight on your behalf may be forgiven.

          *: Given that reading is not your forte, let’s try doing some maths: in all, about 670 million Covid vaccine doses were administered. Even if this has prompted half a million (40,000 x 12 months) VAERS reports – most of which about minor side effects – then this still means that only one in every thousand vaccinations has led to a report being filed. So no, not a ‘disaster’ by any meaning of the word, no matter how hard you and other mentally challenged anti-vaccine people try to make it look.

          The real disaster is that worldwide, some 20 million people have died of Covid-19 – and that a significant number of those people could still be alive today if they had not listened to anti-vaccine propagandists such as you. The truth of the matter is very simple: Covid-19 kills and seriously harms people, vaccines prevent this for the most part.

          • 20 million?


            Globally, more than 6.8 million people have died from COVID-19. That number is considered to be an undercount, with some reports estimating the true death toll is more than double the official count.


          • The General Dynamics IT contract initially cost 35.4 million dollars and included this
            IV. Description of work:
            “…is expected to be 1,000 reports per day, with up to 40% of the reports serious in nature.”

            Here is an extract from the First monthly report:
            First report 25th January 2021:
            “Two vaccines have been released since the last report. Since the release the number of incoming COVID-19 reports has significantly exceeded the estimated 1,000 reports per day (per the chart below). As a result, GDIT is unable to meet the processing and other timeframes (data processing, telephone inquiries, clinical inquiries, etc). GDIT has reached out for the Program office and OAS for guidance and support.”

            Next report February 25th 2021:
            “…There continues to be record setting metrics in multiple categories including:
            Number of incoming reports: 76,067
            Number of Web reports received: 54,684 (most of them Covid-19 reports)
            Number of website visits: 1,555,875
            Number of inquiries by (phone, etc): 14,857

            2. IT Activities
            Expand the VAERS-IDs in all six extracts to support a 7-digit field
            Updated the COVID excel sheet deliverables application to include additional symptom codes.

            Third report 25th March 2021:
            “…there continues to be record setting metrics in multiple categories…
            Although staf processed over 40,000 reports in February, a record high, they are unable to keep up with the increased surge in reports at current staffing levels. A contract modification, to provide for surge and backlog remediation, should be issued in March 2021.,.”

            And then it gets worse…

          • I do admire your patience and persistence in setting out the facts to counter the nonsense from Old Bob and others but of course you know as well as I do that it is absolutely futile. His views are not based on facts or evidence – the view forms first and is then followed by the attempt to find or manufacture ‘evidence’. Some go farther and deny the validity of evidence or the existence of facts, they witter on about a new post scientism paradigm.

            It must be tempting to give up because you will never persuade the Old Bobs of this world. But unless their claims are constantly rebutted there is the risk that they will infect others who would otherwise be open to reason. Perhaps most readers of this site have already made up their minds one way or the other. But that’s why I make a point of always responding to anti vaxxer claims in the letters page of our local paper, where the more general readership probably includes more of the undecided.

          • @Socrates
            Sure, “[Motivation is the master of reason, always, it’s never the other way round]” – so we each and everyone, have the same problem of self-certification – if our reference is wrong, we cannot know it? Yes we can! Nature provides two clues: guilt and happiness – the less the former and the more the latter, the closer in agreement we are with reality.

            If someone is more unhappy, then they take out their guilt on others with hatred. It’s that simple.

          • Well Old Bob, you really found your inner zen there. Happiness and guilt the measures of reality!

            However you did remind me of the definition of a philosopher, I think from Tom Lehrer. “A philosopher is someone who likes giving advice to anyone happier than he is”.

            Thanks for the laugh.

          • @DC

            20 million?

            Sorry, my mistake – that’s what happens when stooping to Old Bob’s level …

            But no, I had this 20 million number in my head from the number of vaccine-prevented deaths that I mentioned in a comment yesterday, where I also mentioned 6.7 million actual deaths. Somehow I mixed up the numbers.

            Anyway, thanks for spotting it, I really like to have my facts straight!

  • @Socrates

    lol, Old Bob is not the only anti-vaxer here at this forum. The problem with your anti-vax label is that it is inaccurate. Many here (and among the world) are not complete antivaxxers. The covid pandemic created many “anti-vaxers” than ever existed previously. I for one am NOT an anti-vaxer, as many here label me. I do oppose a overly rigorous childhood vaccine schedule as used by the USA. I do oppose mRNA vaccines, and other covid vaccines that have proven harmful due to lack of proper testing. I do not oppose all vaccines.

    This phenomenon of “anti-vax” growth was largely a result of a combination of events. Today more patients are skeptical of vaccines than prior to the pandemic. The skepticism exists largely due to a few factors. EUA is still being used as a cover for the pharma industry, I look for more EUA to occur in the future unfortunately. Another factor is mRNA, most patients don’t completely trust the science, and why should they ? …. more patients have been damaged via covid vaccines than ever previously experienced. Beyond that, the vaccines are not effective enough for the average to patient. Nobody wants to get jabbed every six months.
    Government mandates, tyrannical authoritarians (Canada) using emergency powers to punish citizens. Government reps like Anthony Fauci, CDC WHO and the likes flip-flopping on their covid policies. Government choosing big business over small businesses. “Conspiracy theories” that turned into conspiracy facts. All of these factors have contributed to the general public having lost confidence in government and government policies pushing vaccines.

    I am anti mRNA vaccines…. at least for now, until the science can prove them safe and effective.

  • MP Bridgend presents MHRA data on Covid vaccines to parliament which gets ignored by MPs and most of the media. His opinions without evidence can be deconstructed.
    So therefore can’t his data be deconstructed ? However nothing happens after his speech so rumours are rife. Anti Vaxx sentiments gets a massive boost.
    More people then go on social media get hooked on conspiracies and subequently associate various health problems with Covid vaccines. They assume causality and believe conspiacies as to why Bridgen was not heard and brought to task by MPs and the media other than by a Gov minister who had to be there. He didnt address the presented MHRA data either.
    No wonder the Vaccine Damage Payment Scheme have had to increased staff from 4 to 80.
    Why doesnt the Gov and scientific research community nail Bridgend and his data with evidence rather than just ignore him?

  • Rasmussen Polls: COVID vs. Vaccine. Americans Tell us Which is the Biggest Killer:

    (Watch from about five minutes in…)

    • @Old Bob

      Thanks for the link, I had not viewed it.
      Very interesting statistics. I’d like to see a larger study pool. That said, Rasmussen is quite reliable.

      Some answer responses in polls can get blurred by anomalies, specifics of covid deaths also and can be confusing. People dying with covid buy not from covid and such. I had a friend that was seven weeks in the hospital fighting covid, he beat the covid infection. Sadly, a couple weeks later he died from a staph infection. But many people said he died from covid-19.

      The statistics on the percentage of deaths being attributed by family members to the vaccine is not surprising to me. Even though the 10% number is much higher than many would accept, I am not surprised.
      I have previously posted here that the mRNA spike protein floating and circulating in the bodies and blood after subsequent jabs is too high. The numbers of patients carrying mRNA spike protein in their system for up to 28 days after vaccination is at the 9.3% level (study from Denmark). This was discovered by testing the blood of those patients jabbed with mRNA vaccines weeks after injection while doing a test of HIV patients’ blood. This is not to be confused with mRNA spike protein from the virus because the spike protein from the virus identifies completely different from the spike protein in the mRNA vaccination.

      It is believed that this 9.3 % segment of vaccinated patients are largely the patients that are experiencing most of the dangerous side effects of the mRNA vaccines…. killing some. We were initially told that the half-life of the mRNA spike protein was only one day, this is simply not the case. Dr Malone warned of this issue in 2020.

      • It seems that the only thing that switches folks off from vaccines is getting a bad hit. Nothing else will do it.

        During the whole of 2020, I was out buying organic whole veg for my Gerson-style-regimen and never even got a cold, nor did I or any of my family notice anything untoward either. One of them works in a supermarket with 300 employees and when half a dozen of them took ill with “covid” – it was quite a thing, in the whole year.

        I got my first cold in early 2022, twice, each one lasted a week, which was out of the blue because since taking 10g – 20g of ascorbic acid in divided doses daily, all my nasal problems had cleared up and I never got colds (since 2018). My guess is that those were SARS-Cov-2 ?

        Although I never had a bad experience with any vaccines, my terminal cancer taught me a ton of stuff e.g. read the small print, hence I never had a covid shot – and since then, no flu shots either.

        • “During the whole of 2020, I was out buying organic whole veg for my Gerson-style-regimen and never even got a cold”
          During her whole adult life, my gran smoked 2 packets/day, and she never got lung cancer.
          Please start smoking OB.

          • Only one in six smokers get lung cancer.

          • While that might be true (no evidence supplied), “tobacco smoking is the major risk factor accounting for 80 to 90% of all lung cancer diagnoses”.


          • correct!

          • @EE

            For sure a smoking gun linked to us here from Old Bob, more State ministers of health will soon follow with their own studies.

            Not correct professor Ernst, they begin at the one in ten thousand number. If you watch the entire presentation, the actual statistics of patient damage gets way beyond the chance of death from the virus…. even for seniors.

            The numbers stated initially from the authorities were “no chance” of injuries from the vaccines. Then it became one in a million, now less than one in ten thousand, and it will go lower yet with time. These statistics don’t even include mild injuries and deaths…only serious injuries. Nor do the statistics include those that never reported, or reported but MD wouldn’t follow up.

            MD’s like McCollough and Malone were signaling this problem from the beginning… yet the media attempted to cancel their views.

            As many of us said in 2020, the cure is worse than the disease.
            What say you Richard ? …. oh yeah, I forgot, you are above watching videos.

        • @Old Bob
          During the whole of 2020, I was NOT buying special food or taking special supplements or vitamins. I never even had a cold – and to date, I haven’t even had Covid-19 that I know of.

          So that proves it: keeping away from organic food, vitamins and supplements prevents Covid-19!

      • @RG
        What an utter load of crap.

        Rasmussen is quite reliable.

        Rasmussen does polls, not science. The primary tenet here is that polls show opinions, not facts.

        The numbers of patients carrying mRNA spike protein …

        Ah, the ‘Killer Spike Protein’ nonsense again …
        What total imbeciles uneducated persons like you fail to notice every time is that getting Covid-19 itself leads to a thousandfold level of spike proteins in the blood compared to getting the vaccine. And no, those mRNA spike proteins, although somewhat different, are not in any way more dangerous than those from the actual virus.
        And what total imbeciles uneducated persons like you also fail to notice every time is that those mRNA spike proteins are actually what makes the vaccine work. Without them, the vaccine would not produce an immune response.

        But thank you for once again showing off your profound ignorance on the subject.

        • Western Australia adverse events reported for covid vaccines 24x higher than for non-covid vaccines:

          • @Old Bob

            Western Australia adverse events reported for covid vaccines 24x higher than for non-covid vaccines

            Learn to read: The number of reports alone cannot be interpreted as evidence of a causal association between a vaccine and an adverse event, or as evidence about the existence, severity, frequency, or rates of problems associated with vaccines. And no, it does not matter if this is the Australian VAERS version.

            Adverse event reports always shoot up with the introduction of a new vaccine – especially when anti-vaccine imbeciles people like you and RG start shouting that ‘teh vaxx is killing us!!!’ or something similar.

            Let me give you an example. Here in the Netherlands, we have our local AE database maintained by an organization called Lareb. Here you will find links to reported adverse events by year:
            As of 2010, HPV vaccination was added to our national immunisation programme. Now here are the numbers of reported adverse events for HPV vaccination from 2011 until 2021:

            2011: 51
            2012: 104
            2013: 82
            2014: 59
            2015: 257
            2016: 146
            2017: 77
            2018: 65
            2019: 104
            2020: 52
            2021: 128

            So what happened in 2015? The number of AE reports suddenly increased fourfold! Was the vaccine more dangerous all of a sudden? Nope, the reason was that in that year, a Danish shockumentary was on TV where claims were made that HPV vaccines were linked to at least a dozen or so serious conditions, including chronic fatigue syndrome, premature ovary failure, pancreatitis, heart problems and a lot more. And of course there were anti-vaccine imbeciles people like you and RG fanning the flames with vacuous claims that “Gardasil will be the biggest medical scandal in history” – as usual without the tiniest shred of evidence to support this claim.
            And sure enough, as this bad publicity subsided, the number of reported AE’s dropped to normal levels again, occasionally to flare up when anti-vaccine imbeciles people not unlike you and RG found it necessary to reignite FUD campaigns about HPV vaccination on social media channels.

            Extensive research has shown that the HPV vaccines that are in use are safe and effective, despite all this negative publicity. No doubt, things will go the same way with Covid vaccines.

            If you beg to differ, please come up with something better than mere report numbers. Come up with officially confirmed deaths and serious injuries as a result of Covid vaccines. So far, none of you anti-vaccine imbeciles people has ever produced such evidence. Which is not surprising, as there is no evidence at all that Covid vaccines cause deaths or permanent injuries in any significant numbers.

          • In 2020, the total of *all* vaccine AEs was 420:
            In 2021, the total of *all* vaccine AEs was 22,386
            In 2022, the total of *all* vaccine AEs was 12,482
            In 2023, so far the total vaccine AEs are 1,247:

            What happened in 2021 for this increase of 22,386 / 420 > 53 times?
            What happened in 2022 likewise?
            What is happening in 2023?
            Why is the total in 2021 higher than the *combined* total of *all* vaccines since 1990?

            [chorus of parrots]
            “Correlation is not causation.”
            [end of chorus]

            See the next graph down by temporal association
            Day 0, total == 4116
            Day 1, total == 3130
            Day 2, total == 1479
            Day 3, total == 1046
            Day 4, total == 725

          • @Old Bob

            Laughing my arse off, you beat me to it.

            “[chorus of parrots]
            “Correlation is not causation.”
            [end of chorus]”

            Only in my mind, I heard Archie Bunkers wife Edith Bunker saying it. (all in the family)

          • @Old Bob

            What happened in 2021 for this increase of 22,386 / 420 > 53 times?

            LEARN TO READ:
            “Adverse event reports always shoot up with the introduction of a new vaccine – especially when anti-vaccine imbeciles people like you and RG start shouting that ‘teh vaxx is killing us!!!’ or something similar.”

            And again: The number of reports alone cannot be interpreted as evidence of a causal association between a vaccine and an adverse event, or as evidence about the existence, severity, frequency, or rates of problems associated with vaccines.

            The simple fact that scientists, doctors, politicians, and even laypeople with at least two functional brain cells are not in the least alarmed by those numbers (they are after all expected) tells us that you and other anti-vaccine trolls are spreading nonsense.

            So either come up with real evidence that those vaccines harm people in any significant numbers or else shut up. Not only are you making yourself look more stupid with every new comment, but correcting your stupidity all the time is even making me look stupid by mere association.

          • From Old Bob’s source, OpenVAERS:

            VAERS is not designed to determine if a vaccine caused a health problem


          • “VAERS is not designed to determine if a vaccine caused a health problem”

            That’s correct.
            It’s a record that all is going as expected. Is there is anything strange that needs further investigation?

          • Old Bob, you seem to have forgotten a previous thread in which your BS was addressed:

            broken record:
            1. (idiomatic) Someone or something that constantly repeats itself, causing annoyance.

            During the COVID-19 pandemic, raw VAERS data has often been disseminated by anti-vaccine groups in order to justify inaccurate safety claims related to COVID-19 vaccines, including adverse reactions and alleged fatalities claimed to have been caused by vaccines.[17][19] Websites such as Medalerts (published by the anti-vaccine group National Vaccine Information Center) and OpenVAERS (which published a tally of vaccine adverse events and fatalities allegedly linked to COVID-19 vaccines based on VAERS data), have been linked to this misinformation.[19] Comparative studies of VAERS, which look at relative reporting rates, have found that the data does not support these claims.[20][21]

          • These Numbers Look Horrific’: Work Absence Rates Are Off the Charts — And It’s Only Gotten Worse:


          • From the Official Public Health England “figures” here:

            “Vaccination rates in the model are based on the actual number of doses administered, and the
            vaccine is assumed to reduce susceptibility to COVID-19 as well as mortality once infected.”

            “Figure 1. Inferred and predicted incidence, mortality and prevalence with and without
            vaccination in England”
            [end of quote]

            As Fenton pointed out, and you ignore, you can create any amount of “lives saved by vaccination” you wish by the “inferred and predicted incidence…” and the “…vaccine is assumed to reduce susceptibility to COVID-19 as well as mortality once infected.”.

            It’s not rocket science, it’s fraud, plain and simple.

    • @Old Bob

      Rasmussen Polls …

      Ah yes, science by public poll, what a wonderful idea!
      Sorry Old Bob, but Americans – especially Republicans – are known for believing the stupidest things. Polls like this tell us nothing about vaccines and everything about the (severe lack of) knowledge among Americans.

      And of course all this tells us that you too aren’t exactly the brightest bulb in the chandelier – especially given the fact that most of your comments are regurgitated verbatim from other ill-informed anti-vaccine sources.

      Still, it’s good entertainment – although I sometimes feel a bit ashamed, marvelling at other people’s lack of brains …

      • Give me a plain man who knows 2 + 2 anyday, rather than a fantasist such as Neil Furguson of the “we are all going to die!” persuasion.

        • @Old Bob
          The problem is that your plain man may know what 2 + 2 makes, but has no clue about science in general and epidemiology and vaccines in particular.

          And contrary to what it may look like the way I present it, there is nothing wrong with that – as virtually every ‘plain man’ (or plain woman, if you will) has knowledge, skills and experience that scientists and doctors don’t have. In our society, we need all these people, with the emphasis on ‘all’.

          However, the problem arises when ‘plain men’ (and that certainly includes you) start blabbing nonsense about vaccines as if they know what they’re talking about.

          So let’s just say that when it comes to selling houses or unclogging drains or financing businesses, we should rely on realtors, plumbers and financial experts respectively, not doctors and scientists – but when it comes to vaccines and sickness and health, medical scientists and doctors are the ones we should listen to, not your ‘plain men’. And no, not just those few doctors who for reasons unknown have chosen to betray their oath and their profession, and jumped on the anti-vaccine bandwagon.

          … a fantasist such as Neil Furguson of the “we are all going to die!” persuasion.

          I’m not familiar with what Ferguson’s said exactly, but I do find it rather amusing(*) that you scold this epidemiologist for spreading spread alarmist messages about a deadly disease, but at the very same time keep spreading the exact same alarmist messages about vaccines yourself – even though you may well be the least qualified person on this planet to do so, and even though there is no evidence at all that those vaccines are in fact harmful.

          *: Please note how carefully I avoid using words such as ‘hypocritical’ and ‘stupid’.

          [On a completely different note: what’s with this reCAPTCHA? I already noticed that the number of CAPTCHA screens in order to get a post approved had gone up recently – but this time, I had to solve the insane number of 21 of them before Computer Said Yes.]

          • [re CAPTCHA: It’s the New World Order of AI – “part of ‘you will own nothing and get to like it’ – what happens when you put your trust in “experts”]

          • Winnie put it best with:
            “Nothing would be more fatal than for the Government of States to get in the hands of experts. Expert knowledge is limited knowledge, and the unlimited ignorance of the plain man who knows where it hurts is a safer guide than any rigorous direction of a specialized character.”

  • @EE

    My retort;
    The same to you.

  • @Richard Rasker

    I believe I indicated that the Rasmussen polls could have some inaccuracies, that said they didn’t show much difference between conservatives and liberals. Larger differences between men/women and old/younger.

    Don’t assume the polls are completely unscientific. When pharmaceutical corps do test and evaluating patients to know how a drug affected them, they many times rely on feedback from the patient to obtain data. Isn’t that quite close to taking a opinion poll ?

    Richard, the issue with the spike proteins is not how many, the issue is for how long the spike protein exists. Can you get that through your head ? A couple years ago, YOU for one here assured me that the mRNA spike proteins would be gone within a couple days from patients. This is simply not the case for over 9.% of covid-19 mRNA vaccine patients.

    This Richard IS,,,, the elephant in the room.
    C’mon, don’t BE the ignoramus you say I am.

    • @RG

      the issue with the spike proteins is not how many, the issue is for how long the spike protein exists.

      No, the REAL issue is whether these spike proteins are harmful at all. There is no evidence that they are. They elicit an immune response, and then break down naturally and/or get eliminated by the immune system. End of story.

      A couple years ago, YOU for one here assured me that the mRNA spike proteins would be gone within a couple days from patients.

      Yes, that still holds true for most people.

      This is simply not the case for over 9.% of covid-19 mRNA vaccine patients.

      Yes, they later found that vaccine-generated spike proteins could last up to two weeks in some cases. So what? Longer persistence is in fact good, as it strengthens the immune response.
      Infection-generated viral spike proteins persist for at least the same amount of time, and in vastly greater amounts, as already explained. Research suggests that people with Long COVID can have natural viral spike proteins in their blood even 12 months after the initial infection.

      Covid vaccines are safe and effective, and cause no harm or death in any significant numbers – whereas the infection itself DOES cause short-term and long-term harm in lots of people, and this harm can be largely prevented by aforementioned vaccine.

      So please cut it out with your anti-vaccine nonsense, there’s a good boy.

      • Richard Rasker said:
        “No, the REAL issue is whether these spike proteins are harmful at all. There is no evidence that they are. They elicit an immune response, and then break down naturally and/or get eliminated by the immune system.”

        From here:

        “A notable finding was that markedly elevated levels of full-length spike protein (33.9±22.4 pg/mL), unbound by antibodies, were detected in the plasma of individuals with postvaccine myocarditis, whereas no free spike was detected in asymptomatic vaccinated control subjects (unpaired t test; P<0.0001).”

        From here:

        “Prolonged detection of vaccine mRNA in LN GCs and spike antigen in LN GCs and blood following SARS-CoV-2 mRNA vaccination”

        • OB: why do you insist on talking about things about which you are evidently utterly clueless?
          you should either learn or shut up!

          • But I am not doing the talking, the data is, blame that – everything in quotes are quotes.

          • you really think so?
            in this case, you are even more stupid than I thought.

          • “Don’t believe your lying eyes.” (quote)

          • @Old Bob
            I would still have a modicum of respect for you if you came up with this kind of anti-vaccine spin of legitimate research all by yourself – but each and every link you post here has already been widely spread throughout the sewers of the internet (substack, bitchute and countless pro-death social media groups) before being spewed here by resident trolls such as you.

            Which tells me that you are not doing any researching or thinking yourself, but just mindlessly regurgitate the anti-vaccine crap that you find online. This notion is also strengthened by the fact that you never address any pertinent questions or admit to being wrong. You are in other words not interested in (or capable of) carrying on a meaningful discussion or any debating any sensible arguments – you’re just flooding this blog with rubbish.

          • @Richard Rasker
            It says, at the top of this website “Please remember, if you make a claim, support it with evidence.”

            Am I to be censored for posting the evidence? (or trying to avoid making claims in the first place)?

            But I don’t have to do either because your post says it all by itself. In fact I might use it as a reference yet…

        • COVID loving Old Bob,

          You conveniently skip the juicy parts of the paper you are touting in support of your anti-vaccine pro-disease stance.

          It is reassuring that neither the BNT162b2 vaccine nor the mRNA-1273 vaccine induces abnormal adaptive immunity or T-cell responses associated with immune activation targeting the myocardium. However, we detected free spike antigen in the blood of adolescents and young adults who developed post-mRNA vaccine myocarditis. Although the implications of this finding must be better understood, these results do not alter the risk-benefit ratio favoring vaccination against COVID-19 to prevent severe clinical outcomes.

          Bolding mine.

          • Disclaimers like that are mandatory for publication and for captured-MSM’s headlines – the truth is still there as you can see. So the lazy can take the shot without reading the details whereas the diligent can make up their own minds.

          • @Old Bob

            Of course, there is a conspiracy behind every statement that doesn’t support your pro-disease narrative. Perhaps someone put a gun to the heads of these researchers and forced them to cough up the following conclusions despite the data reported in their papers.


            In this systematic review and meta-analysis, we found that the risk of myocarditis is more than seven fold higher in persons who were infected with the SARS-CoV-2 than in those who received the vaccine. These findings support the continued use of mRNA COVID-19 vaccines among all eligible persons per CDC and WHO recommendations.


            Compared with myocarditis associated with covid-19 disease and conventional myocarditis, myocarditis after vaccination with SARS-CoV-2 mRNA vaccines was associated with better clinical outcomes within 90 days of admission to hospital.


            Our study indicates that BNT162b2 vaccine–induced myocarditis in adolescents appears to be a rare adverse event that occurs predominantly in males after the second vaccine dose. The clinical course appears to be mild and benign over a follow-up period of 6 months, and cardiac imaging findings suggest a favorable long-term prognosis.

            There must be a shadowy cabal pulling strings from behind the curtain. Otherwise, why would researchers around the world come to similar conclusions? The truth is out there for the diligently conspiracy minded folk like yourself to dig up and that 200 million year old fossilized dinosaur turd you dug up isn’t going to polish itself.

      • @Richard Rasker

        Stop a minute and listen to yourself Richard.
        You are making the case of lingering spike proteins in conjunction with lingering covid….. hmmm. I don’t find that to be a good argument.
        No, the spike protein is not supposed to hang around for weeks or even months. If the immune system fails to kill the spike protein … it’s a problem not a benefit.

        You would do well to read this link below to dispel some of the misinformation that you have obtained.,(within%20a%20few%20days).

        I believe you live in Denmark where the vaccines were administered properly (one of the few) … with aspiration. Much of the leading world countries did NOT aspirate the vaccines when they were administered. Lack of aspiration is another contributing factor to vaccines working improperly and potential harm. The jab is not intended to be administered into the bloodstream… but I can assure you that it was in many many patients. Thats not fault of the vaccine, but it could lead to injuries.

        Dr. Robert Malone was a victim of a bad Moderna batch, which had similar bad reactions to other patients, his second jab almost killed him.
        Beyond bad batches, it was a notable issue for me that the mRNA vaccines were required to be kept at extreme (never previously required) low temperatures. I have been involved with logistics operations previously, as well as chain of custody documentation. I know for a fact that there are more breakdowns, failures and fraudulent signatures than are ever uncovered. The most likely outcome of vaccines not kept at the specified temperature is being ineffective. However, we simply don’t know what other ill effects could occur.

        Finally, the German Health Minister, Prof. Dr. Karl Lauterbach, has upset the applecart with a stunning admission. I realize that it has already been discussed here. However, another link suggests that the rate of injury is still much higher than even mentioned by Lauterbach.

        “A small but vocal minority of politicians — including the far-Left Sahra Wagenknecht and the far-Right AfD — opposed Lauterbach’s mass vaccination policies, warning about the side effects of these novel mRNA-based vaccines. Lauterbach responded by claiming — not only in a now-infamous tweet but also in several talk shows — that the Covid vaccines were “without side effects”. It was an astonishing claim, considering numbers from Germany’s own Ministry of Health showed (also repeated by Lauterbach himself) that reported serious adverse events occurred in one in 5,000 vaccinations. This increased up to 2 in 1,000 for all suspected adverse events.

        Those words are now coming back to haunt Lauterbach. Over the past two years, more than 300,000 cases of vaccine side effects have accumulated in the Ministry’s own system, and more and more people are lodging compensation claims against the state — which, based on the contracts signed by the EU with vaccine manufacturers, is liable for any vaccine-related damage. Meanwhile, the subject of vaccine injuries has begun to be openly discussed in the German mainstream media.”

        What a F’n mess.
        Lots of folks sayin… “I told ya so”

        • Says the man so scientifically and logically engaged he believes in chemtrails.

          Your ill-informed 2+2=flowerpot nonsense can be ignored, RG. There is no point in debate because you are incapable of rational thought.

          This is not an ad hom. It is a statement of evidenced fact.

        • @RG
          As I have better things to do with my time (such as running a business) than making fruitless attempts at educating stubborn ignoranuses, this will be my last comment in this thread.

          You and other anti-vaccine trolls are flooding this thread with a deluge of copy-pasted anti-vaccine nonsense, all of which has been debunked elsewhere already. What’s worse, you never actually engage in constructive discussion. You post rubbish without knowing what you’re talking about, and then respond to any criticism by posting more, often unrelated rubbish, except that it is all anti-vaccine crap dredged up from the sewers of the Internet.

          Specifically, you keep insinuating that Covid vaccines are harmful WITHOUT ANY SOLID EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER. And no, numbers of adverse events reported are no evidence – in fact, one of the reasons why I consider you as incurably stupid is that you completely disregard hugely important cautions and disclaimers from the very sources you are referring to, such as VAERS warning you (in bold type, at that) that the reports they receive are NOT evidence for any causal relationship between reported events and vaccines.

          It’s a bit like the homeopathy discussion, really: just like homeopaths should stop coming up with endless amounts of ‘mechanisms’ and studies of particular ‘remedies’ for particular conditions – some of which come up positive, but most of which don’t – instead of producing evidence for the viability of basic homeopathic principles (which so far still has not materialized), you anti-vaccine trolls should first come up with solid evidence that vaccines ARE indeed far more harmful than doctors, scientists, healthcare organizations and other knowledgeable parties claim.

          Only when these unexpected extra risks of vaccines have been firmly proven in a scientific sense can you start looking at possible causes in more detail, e.g. spike proteins, adjuvants etcetera. And only THEN do you have a proper reason to spread the stuff you’re spreading now already.

          • @Richard Rasker

            If you have better things to do than do engage here with me (or others), by all means, attend to your priorities. I’m not twisting your arm to post here. You have made the choice all on your own to post nineteen times on this thread alone. Evidently you do see this as some priority.
            I’m happily retired, and I’ve got the time to watch the beautiful SA skies, and post here all that the professor will allow me.

            “And no, numbers of adverse events reported are no evidence”
            That an interesting (bogus) statement since pharmaceutical product (including vaccine) testing involves and DEPENDS on patients reporting adverse effects from the trail treatment.

          • RG,

            That an interesting (bogus) statement since pharmaceutical product (including vaccine) testing involves and DEPENDS on patients reporting adverse effects from the trail (sic) treatment.

            Patients in a clinical trial are monitored. Researchers know who those patients are and what demographic categories they belong to etc. and can verify the self-reported data. On the other hand, VAERS reports are unverified.


            VAERS is ripe for exploitation because it relies on unverified self-reports of side effects. Anyone who received a vaccine can submit a report. And because this information is publicly available, misinterpretations of its data has been used to amplify COVID-19 misinformation through dubious social media channels and mass media, including one of the most popular shows on cable news.


            In fact, VAERS has played a major role in the spread of misinformation about COVID-19 vaccines. The data is regularly appropriated by anti-vaccine advocates, who use the reports to claim falsely that COVID-19 vaccines are dangerous. They are aided by the fact that the entire VAERS database is public — it can be downloaded by anyone for any purpose.

            In order to avoid sounding like an abject idiot, you should first understand the difference between trail vs trial before you comment on the subject. Same goes for your spike protein BS. Try to wrap your head around the science behind mRNA vaccines, come back and attempt to answer my questions: I will wait, I have all the time in the world, unlike you I am not busy counting chemtrails.

            post here all that the professor will allow me.

            Perhaps it is time to change that, EE.

          • I am considering it.

          • ‘RG’ wrote: DEPENDS on patients reporting adverse effects events.

            Yes, and this information is in an entirely different domain from the NUMBERS of adverse events reported.

          • @Pete Atkins

            I realize that Pete.
            But at the end of the day, the difference is one is reported to collect trail data, the other is collected to collect treatment data. Is one more valid than the other ? Yes, perhaps collecting the trial data will exclude some degree of correlation. But disregarding treatment data has value when the numbers reach high percentages. At some point, pharma corps have to acknowledge that their product is harmful and needs to be removed from the market. This has happened quite a few times in history…. ya know ? So where did the data come from that led to product removal or recall… the public reporting damages from treatments.

            Perhaps you are not aware. Pfizer, (and likely other pharma’s) refused to collect many side effects and bad reactions to their mRNA vaccine during the test trials. How was that accomplished, they simply would not accept any side effects as reactions except those which they pre-determined. So patients could not report anything that was not on the questioners. How BOGUS is that ?

          • RG: you really have no idea what you are bullshitting about.

  • Top German health official Lauterbach folds on vaccine injuries:

    It’s officially no longer one in a million but one in ten thousand…

    • The story is already a few weeks old and has already been hysterically commented on by the German vaccination opponents and corona deniers. The deliberate false news and misinterpretations of these people have long been commented on and corrected.

      That an anti-vaxxer like Del Bigtree only now takes note of this and again tries to fabricate a scandal out of it, can only be commented as follows: Lid open, garbage in, lid closed.

      • This is the German health minister you are denying, are you sure you want to do that?

        First it was no side effects.
        Then it was one in a million.
        Now (three years too late) it is one in ten thousand.
        You believe Government if you want to…

        • OB: if I counted correctly, you have posted 33 comments on this post alone.
          I will now limit your and other wafflers’ contributions to 10/post.

          • @EE

            Richard Rasker has posted on this thread 17 times, however sir Richard’s posts are 3x the length of Old Bobs posts.

            Any thoughts of limiting Richard ? …lol

          • as far as I can see, RR mainly responds to OB and tries to correct the lies of OB.
            in any case, 17 < 33!

        • I live in Germany. I know from original sources what Lauterbach said and how this statement was twisted, misinterpreted and blown up by vaccination opponents and corona deniers. All lies have been refuted in a factual manner.

          By the way, you repeat these lies in paragraphs 2, 3 and 4. That’s what happens when you suck up all the dirt indistinguishably like a vacuum cleaner.

  • @EE

    I didn’t think so.

  • RG says:

    No, the spike protein is not supposed to hang around for weeks or even months. If the immune system fails to kill the spike protein … it’s a problem not a benefit.

    You haven’t supplied any evidence to support your claim. According to your ramblings on this blog, mRNA vaccines are new and are not well researched. Therefore, how do you know that spike proteins from vaccine are not supposed to hand around for weeks/months? Are you making an educated guess? Are you a vaccine researcher or doctor or virologist or immunologist? Are you even educated?

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