Since about two years, I am regularly trying to warn people of charlatans of all types who mislead the public on COVID-related subjects. In this context, a recent paper in JAMA is noteworthy. Allow me to quote just a few passages from it:

COVID-19 misinformation and disinformation flood the public discourse; physicians are not the only source. But their words and actions “may well be the most egregious of all because they undermine the trust at the center of the patient-physician relationship, and because they are directly responsible for people’s health,” Pawleys Island, South Carolina, family medicine physician Gerald E. Harmon, MD, president of the American Medical Association (AMA), (which publishes JAMA)wrote recently. In November, the AMA House of Delegates adopted a new policy to counteract disinformation by health care professionals.

… Few physicians have been disciplined so far, even though the Federation of State Medical Boards (FSMB), representing the state and territorial boards that license and discipline physicians, and, in some cases, other health care professionals, and the American Board of Medical Specialties (ABMS), consisting of the boards that determine whether physicians can be board-certified, have issued statements cautioning against spreading false COVID-19 claims.

In July 2021, the FSMB warned that spreading COVID-19 misinformation could put a physician’s license at risk. The organization said it was responding “to a dramatic increase in the dissemination of COVID-19 vaccine misinformation and disinformation by physicians and other health care professionals.”

The ABMS released a statement in September 2021. “The spread of misinformation and the misapplication of medical science by physicians and other medical professionals is especially harmful as it threatens the health and well being of our communities and at the same time undermines public trust in the profession and established best practices in care,” the ABMS said.

In an annual survey of its 70 member boards conducted in fall 2021, the FSMB asked about complaints and disciplinary actions related to COVID-19. Of the 58 boards that responded, 67% said they had seen an uptick in complaints about licensees spreading false or misleading COVID-19 misinformation, according to results released in December 2021. But only 12 (21%) of the 58 boards said they’d taken disciplinary action against a physician for that reason…

There is no question, misinformation by physicians is lamentable, particularly during a health crisis. The fact that only so few of the wrong-doers get caught and punished for it is depressing, in my view. What seems nevertheless encouraging is that the proportion of physicians who misinform their patients about COVID is small.
How does that compare to non-medically trained practitioners of so-called alternative medicine (SCAM)?
  • What percentage of lay-homeopaths misinform their patients?
  • What percentage of chiropractors misinform their patients?
  • What percentage of energy healers misinform their patients?
  • What percentage of naturopaths misinform their patients?
  • What percentage of acupuncturists misinform their patients?
  • etc., etc.

As the total number of SCAM practitioners might, in some parts of the world, easily outnumber doctors, these questions are highly relevant. Yet, I am not aware of any reliable data on these issues. Judging from what I have observed (and written about) during the pandemic, I guess that the percentages are likely to be substantial and way higher than those for doctors. To me, this suggests that we ought to focus much more on SCAM practitioners if, in future health crises, we want to prevent the confusion and harm that misinformation inevitably causes.

94 Responses to COVID-19 misinformation and disinformation flood the public discourse

  • What percentage of the statements of Dr Anthony Fauci misinformed the public?
    No early treatments for Covid19, so stay home until your lips turn blue then come in to the hospital to die on a ventilator comes to mind. And the rest need to wait for an experimental treatment while wearing (cloth) masks and quarantining the healthy also come to mind.
    I think at the very least his cushy 400k salary and maybe his freedom should be at risk right now.

    • if you don’t provide any evidence for your allegations, you look just daft.
      and please consider that the evidence evolved rapidly.

      • “No early treatments for Covid19”! This could be the worst of all of his statements. How can he be sure of that?
        In Italy, scores of family doctors have helped people to survive and avoid hospital admittance with the usual drugs used which have been for flu since long. Thay have saved thousands of covid patients (tested), even those with multiple illnesses, upto 100% of patients, with very rare exceptions. No need to collect the evidence with experimental designs.

    • @Stan

      What percentage of the statements of Dr Anthony Fauci misinformed the public?

      None that I know of.

      No early treatments for Covid19

      Indeed, there were no effective early treatments for Covid-19. Avoiding infection was the only way to prevent illness and death, especially in the first six months or so. Later on, dexamethasone was found to mitigate the worst problems in seriously ill people, but there was still no effective treatment of Covid-19 cases in general.
      Only with the advent of vaccines could the disease be prevented in any effective way.

      I think at the very least his cushy 400k salary and maybe his freedom should be at risk right now.

      Why? The man has done an absolutely great job in the most difficult of circumstances – and by the latter I don’t mean the pandemic (which is bad enough as it is), but having to deal with a bullshitting psychopath as a boss and his right-wing sycophants in high government posts who were openly fighting any measures that were intended to protect the public.

  • In the USA Anthony Fauci is the enemy No.1 for all corona deniers and anti-vaxxers. In Germany it is Lothar Wieler and Christian Drosten, who have to deal with unfair and disgusting attacks for the past 2 years.

    I am not familiar with the other European countries, but I think that prominent experts and representatives of the authorities there have to struggle with similar difficulties.

  • The alt practitioners are certainly a big part of the Covid misinformation and antivax ecosystem.
    But, in the USA at least, they have their own regulatory bodies, made up of … alt practitioners.
    A naturopath in Seattle actually seems to have killed someone.
    In 2016, her license was suspended for 5 years by the board of naturopathy.
    But she’s practicing now, in Kirkland Washington.
    If an alt practitioner doesn’t lose their license for killing people, they aren’t likely to lose it for spreading Covid disinformation.

    • What an awful thing to have happened and the article you link raises all sorts of questions.
      What on earth is a naturopath doing being a primary care physician? I really hope that family were given enough information to make an informed (if disastrously wrong) decision to have a naturopath in that role.
      The completely different accounts of the phone call by the naturopath and the mother are very telling as is the fact the naturopath has publicly described the mother’s account as ‘bullshit’!
      What an attitude!

  • Thanks.Timely article. In case your interested I’m a retired GP and have written a series of articles on misinformation at

    I read don’t think enough is being done to counter the unbelievable amount of nonsense being disseminated by some very dubious doctors.
    Keep up the good work.

  • That alt practitioners would tend to be anti-vax is weird on their basic principles.
    They like natural, gentle treatments – and vaccines are a natural, gentle way of stimulating the immune system.
    They advocate for prevention, and accuse mainstream medicine of treating the symptoms rather than the causes. But vaccines are a brilliant kind of prevention – and of serious diseases.
    They advocate against medications. But if someone gets one of those serious diseases, they are going to be on heavy-duty medications. Often they would be hospitalized, where they would get some decidedly ungentle treatments.
    Being on a ventilator for Covid is NOT a natural, gentle experience. Patients often have to be sedated, partly so they can tolerate it.

    • “…vaccines are a natural, gentle way of stimulating the immune system…”
      Really? Injecting/forcing something past the innate immune system which normally addresses any antigens first, is gentle?
      Preventing a perhaps mild childhood disease, and possibly setting someone up for a lifetime of chronic health issues, is the concern.
      Not all vaccines are equal. Each is a separate drug. Some more or less safe and effective than others. Requiring/enforcing them for all children at the same ages so they can attend school, irrespective of their health history, is problematic and unethical.
      If someone’s realistic Absolute Risk Reduction from a vax is much less than 1%, why should they be mandated/black-mailed into taking it. That is not a natural, gentle experience either..

  • Correct Lucio

    If you go back nine months ago when vaccine distribution was in full swing in most Western Nations, the freedom to suggest publicly that the vaccines would not stop transmission and infection of the virus would get you kicked off many a social media platforms. Today it’s accepted and verified fact that the vaccines could not produce that effect. So that tells up how easily “misinformation” becomes common information in only a short time.
    Fauci himself responsible for much misinformation as anybody.

    “According to a new report by the New York Times, the CDC has also been collecting much more detailed data about Covid infections that breaks down by age, race, and vaccination status. The critical information would go a long way towards figuring out an end to the pandemic, but the agency has purposefully suppressed the information from the public over fears that it would be “misinterpreted” and cause “vaccine hesitancy. In other words, the ‘experts’ in the US public health regime believe the plebs aren’t capable enough to interpret something themselves. Within the data that has been withheld by the CDC are detailed information about breakthrough cases, hospitalizations, and deaths, which the agency has been collecting since the beginning of the vaccine rollout, according to officials who spoke to the NYT.
    So much for the bogus lie that has been pushed by public health officials for months, claiming that breakthrough infections weren’t being tracked at all. The medical elites just decided to hide the data because it didn’t fit the approved narrative, and, naturally, blamed the potential for ‘misinformation’ as justification for the coverup.”

    How much misinformation is the CDC responsible for ?

    • nine months ago … the freedom to suggest publicly that the vaccines would not stop transmission and infection of the virus would get you kicked off many a social media platforms. Today it’s accepted and verified fact that the vaccines could not produce that effect.

      But the situation with Covid changes over time, as the number of people infected changes; as their vaccination status changes; as new variants emerge …
      Now that Omicron has developed and spread incredibly quickly, being so infectious, it’s easy to believe that vaccinating can’t stop it.
      But this isn’t an argument against getting vaccinated. The most important way future variants can be prevented is to develop herd immunity through mass vaccination.

    • @concerned misinformation spreader

      truthpress = fake news, just for the trash can
      Kim Iversen = Putin fan girl, who is spreading fake news and conspiracy theories

      You must be very desperate by now, because your sources are getting more and more pathetic.

  • @RPGNo1 & R Daneel

    lol…. you idiots really should stop attacking the news sources that you don’t approve of, or you should learn how to do an internet search for yourselves. I informed you previously that much of the real news is difficult to find in the main stream press, thank to the TNI (Trusted News Initiative)

    I give you New York Times….. read and weep…. you fools.

    • @concerned patient misinformed and delusional antivaxxer troll

      If you had made an effort to read past the first two paragraphs in the NYT article you will find the following reason as to why they withheld.

      Kristen Nordlund, a spokeswoman for the C.D.C., said the agency has been slow to release the different streams of data “because basically, at the end of the day, it’s not yet ready for prime time.” She said the agency’s “priority when gathering any data is to ensure that it’s accurate and actionable.”

      Another reason is fear that the information might be misinterpreted, Ms. Nordlund said

      Emphasis mine.

      So, it appears one of the reasons CDC is withholding the data is that there is a danger of it being misinterpreted, just like what we have seen with VAERS and DMED data recently. Antivaxxer loons are the problem that CDC is trying to avoid and made a misstep and they in-turn get criticized by the same loons.

      The bigger picture here is that outright misrepresentation of data by antivaxxers loons like Kirsch, Mercola etc. and spreading of that misinformation by troll like you is causing a chilling effect on public health agencies like CDC and FDA.

      Regardless, truthpress is one for the dumpster.

    • Oh dear.

      It’s a shame when facts contradict your fantasies isn’t it. The TNI rips to shreds the demented rantings of the loons who, obviously, don’t like it and kick back with their ongoing circle-jerk of mutual bullshitting.

      Meanwhile, the real world, with the real scientists and journalists who know how to check facts and not just seek out and garbage which they believe supports their delusions, continues to turn.

    • From your link

      When the C.D.C. published the first significant data on the effectiveness of boosters in adults younger than 65 two weeks ago, it left out the numbers for a huge portion of that population: 18- to 49-year-olds, the group the data showed was least likely to benefit from extra shots, because the first two doses already left them well-protected.

      If true, this would be good news about the mRNA Covid vaccines: they’re very effective for younger adults. It would argue for the unvaccinated people to get vaccinated ASAP, and to concentrate resources on them. And it would argue for prioritizing older adults for booster shots and making them more easily available to them.
      This is something on which experts seem to disagree. Last November, there was an opinion piece in the Washington Post, saying

      The case for boosters for healthy younger adults is not strong — and those shots would do more good elsewhere

      Co-authored by Paul Offit, and he’s certainly not an anti-vaxxer 🙂
      The best anti-vaxxers are the scientists who develop vaccines, such as Paul Offit. They reject lots of vaccines while developing them, for not being safe enough. And the regulatory agencies sometimes act as good anti-vaxxers too, as when the Johnson & Johnson Covid vaccine was temporarily suspended because of a very rare but serious side effect.
      It also shows that you can find criticism of government agencies in good media sources. And it’s less slanted than your quote from that site, and it gives some idea of the other side of the story. The good media sources also have an incentive to dig up things that might make government agencies look bad, because such news sells. But they’re a lot more responsible in their reporting than seems to be.
      If the CDC did deliberately suppress data because some people will misinterpret it, it may be reasonable to say that in the interest of transparency, they shouldn’t. It doesn’t seem horribly shocking, because people who aren’t experts should be following the CDC’s recommendations anyway, not trying to make judgements themselves from the raw data. Science is full of caveats and “let’s see what the other side of the story is”.

      • @ Laura

        ” It doesn’t seem horribly shocking, because people who aren’t experts should be following the CDC’s recommendations anyway”

        lol… exactly, I’ve had the CDC on “mute” for years now. Thanks for the permission to ignore them completely.
        Laura, are you an “expert” ?

        • What I said was

          people who aren’t experts should be following the CDC’s recommendations


          You seem to have misread.

          I’ve had the CDC on “mute” for years now.

          That’s unfortunate. People not listening to the public health recommendations of the CDC and similar agencies in other countries have caused a huge amount of unnecessary suffering and death in this pandemic.
          When Covid came along, it exposed a huge vulnerability in many countries, previously unsuspected by most people: the popularity of anti-vaccine attitudes.
          Dr. David Gorski has always concentrated a lot of his commentary on anti-vaxxers, and he’s looking very prescient.

    • …idiots…

      Oh, you have taken a look in the mirror? 😀

  • Misinformation and Disinformation are vague words without any scientific evidence, please list those information’s that you think they are wrong, to be able to answer you, accusing fellows that they are ignorant and you are smart is not acceptable because a lot of time people who think themselves smart agree on a common mistake to discover later that people who was aware of “the mistake” was right.

    • read the article again and perhaps you discover that I mostly report the evidence generated by the study of other researchers and then ask a few relevant questions. Yet, I guess the mis/disinformation mainly relates to the following arguments:
      1. It’s only a flew
      2. The vaccination is worse than the disease
      3. Alternative treatments are effective.

      • That’s true the vaccination are worse then the disease itself because all the vaccines are made from modified virus such as the adenovirus present in wild species such as Makkak,… ( We have seen that in Astrazeneca, Johnson & Johnson who have stopped the production ) or from parts of the wild species virus the spikes Sars-Cov-1&2 present in Bats, Donkey, Mules,… which is present in all the Mrna Vaccines and the new protein vaccine so healthy people who refuse to get vaccinated not because they are not afraid from catching the virus but from catching a modified virus in their bodies from those vaccines, what ever your science is saying nobody like at the bottom line a modified virus vaccine or not to get in his body, getting sick, mild sick or having blood clotting, organs inflammation or unknown secondary effects yet .

        • because all the vaccines are made from modified virus

          Nope, see Moderna, BioNTech/Pfizer, Sinovac, Turkovac ….

          Astrazeneca, Johnson & Johnson who have stopped the production


          from parts of the wild species virus the spikes Sars-Cov-1&2 present in Bats, Donkey, Mules

          Complete nonsense.

          nobody like at the bottom line a modified virus vaccine or not to get in his body, getting sick, mild sick or having blood clotting, organs inflammation or unknown secondary effects yet


          Please go back to Telegram and try there again.

    • “Misinformation and Disinformation are vague words”

      No, they are not vague words.
      QUOTE [my formatting for clarity]

      Misinformation is incorrect or misleading information presented as fact, either intentionally or unintentionally.

      Disinformation is a subset of misinformation, that which is deliberately deceptive.
      END of QUOTE

      • So over time, the misinformation and disinformation charges from vaccine pushers is turning on the narrative that vaccine mandates were necessary. The misinformation was actually from the side of the vaccine pushers.

        With additional time we will witness the scientific evidence that forcing vaccines on patients was a mistake. Study indicates that infection as protective against severe illness and death as covid mRNA vaccines. In fact, I would argue previous infection gives longer protection.

        • @RG

          Study indicates that infection as protective against severe illness and death as covid mRNA vaccines.

          Study also indicates that infection kills one in every hundred people.

          I may be a ‘vaccine pusher’, but at least I am not a death pusher like you.

          • @Richard Rasker

            The point is that vaccine advocates pushed the vaccines on those that already had immunity via prior infection. This study indicates that the protection value of the covid infection was better than the two mRNA jabs required to be considered vaccinated. This protection also protected against DEATH and severe illness …. Richard !

            Did you even bother to read ?

            The point of this specific post was to draw attention to the comparison of COVID INFECTION vs. covid mRNA vaccination…. NOT anti-vaccine.

          • @RG
            You must be one of the least intelligent people i have met.
            From your own link:
            “Still, experts stress that vaccination is the preferable route to immunity, given the risks of Covid, particularly in unvaccinated people.
            “The problem of saying ‘I’m gonna get infected to get immunity’ is you might be one of those people that end up in the hospital or die,” Murray said. “Why would you take the risk when you can get immunity through vaccination quite safely?”

            Getting infected always comes with far greater risks of severe illness and death than getting vaccinated – even if one was previously infected.

        • ROFL @RG

          At least vaccine pushers are not advocating for sickness and death. OTH anti-vaxers like yourself are pushing for people to get sick, risk death and long-term side effects all in the name of attaining sacred “natural” immunity. Maybe we should start addressing you and your fellow anti-vaxer friends as pro-grim-reapers or pro-deathers or COVID-lovers.

  • @Richard Rasker

    I never advocated for obtaining the infection in leu of taking the jab. People just get infected naturally… it’s what happens with a virus, right ? The mRNA vaccines have proven to us that they don’t prevent infection, and in fact Pfizer even admitted that they have not date to prove otherwise.(actually never gathered information according to Pfizer).

    The fact is that I was infected only three months before I took the jab (JnJ) in April of 2021.
    There are many individuals that would make that decision for themselves to risk infection rather than take the jab. We already knew at that time that the infections were most dangerous to the elderly and health compromised. However, the “misinformation” existed at the time that prior infection was inferior protection to vaccines.

    It matters not what conclusion the author of the NBC reporting comes to, that person denies the very content of the science they have are claiming has been discovered and is reporting.

    You’re the dummy, not me.

    • If a moron says “you’re the dummy”, it must mean that you are a genius, Richard!

    • @RG

      The mRNA vaccines have proven to us that they don’t prevent infection

      Sorry, but you are wrong. mRNA vaccines DO prevent infection, both on the personal level and the population level. They just don’t prevent 100% of infections. No vaccine prevents 100% of infections or disease.

      Pfizer even admitted that they have not date to prove otherwise

      Sorry, but you are wrong. Pfizer did not ‘admit’ anything. When accused that they didn’t look into ‘preventing infections’, they explained that their phase 3 clinical trial indeed did not include measuring the efficacy in preventing transmission. Which is completely normal – if only because you can’t measure this metric in the early stages of a pandemic, when only a few percent of all people have been exposed to the virus, and even fewer received the vaccine.

      You’re the dummy, not me.

      I’ll take that as a compliment, thanks!

  • @EE

    lol, that must make you a genius also.

  • @Pete Atkins

    Why don’t you address the science of link I posted, rather than hurl insults ?
    Because you’re not the sharpest tool in the shed.

    You here are all the same, ignore the post and attack the poster. Grow up folks.

    • RG on Tuesday 23 June 2020 at 23:59

      @Lollypop & Dr. Hummer

      “It’s really not worth spending time on this blog. It’s full of dogmatists who think they own the truth, talk about science but actually engage in mere rhetoric full of fallacies. It’s better to spend time doing basic, theoretical and clinical research.”

      I’ve been posting here for about 18 months now. I came to the same conclusion about nine months ago. I spend more of my time elsewhere now. I just hang around to be an arse‑hole to the prima donnas here, and to keep sticking my knife in far enough to occasionally stir the pot.

      [my emphasis]

    • @RG
      It appears that you have a hard time understanding what exactly the science says. You somehow seem to consider your interpretation of one study the gospel truth, and a reason to discard the huge body of research that does not support that interpretation of yours, calling it ‘misinformation’.

      The science in your linked article says that surviving an infection does confer immunity against a (serious outcome of) renewed infection – maybe even more so than vaccination. This is nothing unexpected, as living through an infection means that the immune system is exposed to a far greater variety of far more antigens over a far longer period of time than with vaccination.

      However, every new Covid-19 infection not only comes with far more health risks than vaccination(*), but its protective effects still wane over the course of time – just slower than with vaccination.
      This means that the risks associated with infection increase again the more time passes between subsequent infections; any superiority of ‘natural immunity’ only holds when people get reinfected with Covid-19 every year or so. This is also why the doctors/scientists in your linked article still recommend getting vaccinated, and avoid infection.

      So you are wrong in promulgating the notion that getting infected is in any way preferable over getting vaccinated. About vaccine mandates: those were instated at a time that there were still lots of people around who had never encountered the Covid-19 virus, and who, on average, had a 1% chance of not surviving a first infection.
      What all this means is that the best primary course of action is to get vaccinated every year or so; this substantially diminishes the risks of any subsequent infection – and only then can you look at any benefits of such an infection, which boils down to prolonged protection on top of what the vaccine does.

      *: Which was shown in the research that I linked to.

    • Dear COVID-loving pestilence-promoting RG,

      Your dogged pursuit of sacred “natural” immunity blinkered you from noticing a 900-pound gorilla (i.e., cardiovascular risk factors potentially caused by COVID-19 infection) grinning at your remarkable folly.

      A bout of COVID-19 is known to increase a person’s long-term risks of having a major cardiovascular event, such as a heart attack or stroke. But being fully vaccinated or even partially vaccinated appears to bring that risk down, according to a study published this week in the Journal of the American College of Cardiology.
      The study, led by researchers at Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai in New York, drew on medical records from over 1.9 million patients who were infected with COVID-19 between March 2020 and February 2022. Of those 1.9 million patients, a “major adverse cardiac event,” namely a heart attack, stroke, or another cardiac event, was identified in 13,948 patients, and 3,175 died following the event.

      Overall, the researchers found that being vaccinated—fully or partially—was linked to fewer cardiac events in the six months following a case of COVID-19. After adjusting for demographics, comorbidities, and time since the pandemic began, the researchers found that being fully vaccinated reduced the risk of having a major cardiac event by about 41 percent, while being partially vaccinated reduced the risk by about 24 percent.

      Meanwhile….in Republican cuckoo-ville, your fellow MAGA-morons are doing their best to usher in a second coming of The White Horseman.

      Two Republican lawmakers in Idaho have introduced a bill that would make it a misdemeanor for anyone in the state to administer mRNA-based vaccines—namely the lifesaving and remarkably safe COVID-19 vaccines made by Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna. If passed as written, it would also preemptively ban the use of countless other mRNA vaccines that are now in development, such as shots for RSV, a variety of cancers, HIV, flu, Nipah virus, and cystic fibrosis, among others.
      In Idaho, it’s unclear if Nichols and Boyle’s bill will make it through the committee and, further, into law. However, its introduction fits into a worrying trend by conservative lawmakers for attacking lifesaving vaccination and evidence-based medicine, generally.

      Emphasis mine.

      • @Talker

        Pestilence promoting ?
        The pandemic is over, Biden declared it a few months back…. did you miss that ? …lol
        Likewise England has stopped giving jabs to the healthy population under fifty years, shifting to the “post pandemic life”.

        That said, yes, I would take my chances against the virus over the mRNA vaccine. But that’s my choice not to subject myself to an EXPERIMENTAL medical procedure. Please spare me the narrative about killing grandma. The vaccine makers have admitted that their jabs don’t stop infection and transmission. Furthermore, we know from real life experience that the jabs aren’t effective as claimed originally.

        I do believe there was a time when one or two jabs of the vaccine would give a patient with underlying conditions a degree of protection against severe illness, especially when the Delta variant was prevalent. That said, protection not for long enough as the virus variants kept mutating too fast for the jabs to do much good…. and the efficacy of ALL the vaccines slipped to about 50% after three to four months.

        All that said, the scientific information about the mRNA vaccines is becoming clearer. It was suggested by some of the early detractors in opposition to the mRNA vaccines that the new vaccines would eventually cause longer term health problems due to the mRNA not leaving the body in short order, and that evidence is showing up now. This is why young athletes all over the world are dropping dead everywhere.
        The scientific evidence explained in the links below. Both are through presentations.

        • Oh deary me RG.

          The “sudden deaths of young athletes” trope which has been shown to be absolute bullshit?

          Have you been watching the nonsense that is “Died Suddenly” which reports on the deaths of numerous people who haven’t actually died?

          Do you actually know what mRNA is, what it does and how? I very much doubt it.

          You continue to spout these fatuous and long-debunked claims. It has long been clear that you lack any grounding in science. What I find disturbing is that, despite the best effort of lots of people on this blog who do actually know what they’re on about to teach you where the gaps in your knowledge are, you refuse to learn.

        • @RG

          yes, I would take my chances against the virus over the mRNA vaccine.

          …even though the virus killed almost 7 million people, including 1.1 million Americans – whereas mRNA vaccines killed virtually no-one.

          that’s my choice not to subject myself to an EXPERIMENTAL medical procedure

          The sadly ironic thing here is that you have things completely backwards.

          The notion that mRNA vaccines are ‘experimental’ is a common trope in the pro-death(*) community. mRNA vaccines are anything but experimental, and the first human clinical trials with mRNA vaccines date back to 2001, so 22 years ago. Since then, multiple human clinical trials have been carried out, during which no significant drawbacks or side effects were noted. This is also reflected in the fact that now, after some 13 billion doses of mRNA vaccine have been administered, the worst side effect consists of rare occurrences of myocarditis – all of which were mild and self-limiting.

          The REAL ‘experimental procedure’ here is humans getting infected with a virus that until recently did not exist, and turns out to cause death and injury – including chronic disabilities – in literally millions of people. Scientists are still scrambling to find out the many ways in which this novel virus can harm us – and they find new mechanisms on an almost weekly basis.

          The vaccine makers have admitted that their jabs don’t stop infection and transmission.

          This is another lie from the pro-death community, as I already explained earlier on.

          This is why young athletes all over the world are dropping dead everywhere.

          This is another Big Lie from the pro-death community, stoked in no small way by a propaganda film that is one outrageous, blatant lie. There is no scientific evidence at all that vaccines cause deaths in any detectable numbers.
          Given the above, you might want to look up the definition of the word ‘science’ – as you appear to have it confused with ‘pseudoscientific propaganda’.

          *: Formerly known as ‘anti-vaccine’ – but as ‘anti’ has a rather negative connotation, I decided that I would use the rather more positive ‘pro’ henceforth. Also thanks to Talker for coming up with this.

          • @Richard Rasker

            I can’t take you posts seriously Richard if you don’t address the material in the links. I can imagine that you didn’t bother to listen to the evidence.

            Please address the issue that the messenger RNA and spike proteins were supposed to exit the body in days. However, in about nine percent of the vaccinated, it is staying in the blood and circulating in the body to various organs for weeks.

            Please do try Richard to focus on the science of the subject at hand, and not some research from twenty years ago.

            EUA is experimental, and not subject to the same test requirements and liabilities of other vaccines.
            BTW- it’s been twenty-seven months since the vaccines were marketed. Where in the ongoing testing being done to remove EUA ? …. and give us legitimate vaccines. Well, there is no incentive for that to ever happen.

          • @RG

            I can’t take you posts seriously Richard if you don’t address the material in the links.

            You are lying again – as I did address the information in the links, extensively so.

            If all you can do is keep on trolling and spreading pro-death propaganda, you do not deserve answers – or even respect for that matter.

        • @RG

          Concerning your YT-links:

          John Campbell “received the Ph.D. for his work on developing methods of teaching via digital media such as online videos”.

          John Campbell is a “retired nurse educator known for his videos about the COVID-19 pandemic. Initially, the videos received praise, but they later veered into misinformation. He has been criticised for suggesting COVID-19 deaths have been over-counted, repeating false claims about the use of ivermectin as a COVID-19 treatment, and providing misleading commentary about the safety of COVID-19 vaccines.”

          But it is nothing new that you do not get your “data” from serious, scientifically provable sources, but that you run after pseudo-scientific gurus and spreaders of misinformation like a disciple.

          • @RPGNo1

            John Cambell is only the messenger, the study is from Denmark.

            You folks use any means to discredit all science you choose not to acknowledge. OK, these links below speak to what I’m referring to without the messenger “John Cambell.”



            OK folks…. any association with John Cambell has been removed from the evidence I’m pointing to.

            Focus, now let’s talk about the damage from mRNA spike proteins.

          • “let’s talk about the damage from mRNA spike proteins”
            why should anyone want to do that WITH YOU?

          • Professor,

            Every time our resident pro-death RG parrots a new scientific paper as “evidence” against mRNA vaccines, he doesn’t realize that he got played by the forces of Dunning-Kruger effect. Please allow me to point that out to him for the thousandth time.

            Dear Pro-death RG,

            Unsurprisingly, you are too dumb to realize that the paper in question is not evidence that mRNA vaccines cause damage. Moreover, you are misrepresenting the paper; authors DO NOT report on damage caused by spike protein. The only thing they report is that they see a weak signal of spike protein’s mRNA (NOT SPIKE PROTEIN) in 10 out of 108 Hepatitis patients. Anyone with basic understanding of biology knows the difference between mRNA vs proteins and how they relate to each other. It is obvious that you do not know the distinction between the two.

            In fact, the authors predicted that their paper would be used for nefarious purposes. So, they say the following for good measure:

            These findings are interesting and should lead to further research into the design of LNPs and the half-life of LNPs and mRNA vaccines, but it should be emphasized that our data does not in any way change the conclusion that both mRNA vaccines are safe and effective.

            Emphasis mine.

            Did you read the bolded text, RG? mRNA vaccines are SAFE AND EFFECTIVE!

            The “damage” caused by spike protein only exists in wet dreams of folks (Campbell, Kirsch etc.) who want to see mRNA tech fail and imbeciles who regurgitate their claims.

          • now let’s talk about the damage from mRNA spike proteins.

            Then we might as well talk about for instance the fairies at the back of my garden, or what type of cheese the moon is made of.

          • RG. I’m ignoring the YouTube video. Proof by YouTube is no proof. Let’s have a look at the paper you cite. Now. I know you’re no scientist and not the brightest and wouldn’t have understood most of it so let’s keep it simple. Did you read what is LITERALLY the bottom line?

            it should be emphasized that our data does not in any way change the conclusion that both mRNA vaccines are safe and effective.

            The paper does not say what you want it to.

            You really need to check there’s water in the swimming pool before you jump in.

        • Dear pro-death & pro-pestilence RG,

          The pandemic is over, Biden declared it a few months back…. did you miss that ? …lol

          Is that so? Then why are you still spouting anti-vax nonsense? Oh, I see, you and your ilk think trumpty dumpty is still the president and running the country secretly. Are you waiting for trumpty to jump out from behind the curtain and declare pandemic to be over and ban all mRNA vaccines?

          Pestilence promoting ?

          How do you think one would attain “superior” natural immunity the advantages of which you can’t stop yapping about? What do you think would happen if people like you spread anti-vaxerpro-death BS online? What do you think will happen when people like you vote dumb politicians into office who want to ban all life-saving mRNA vaccines?

          Do you want the answer spoon-fed to you? If not, bugger off before wheelbarrow
          gets jealous of your intelligence and run you over.

    • OK… I’m done.
      You folks keep taking those mRNA jabs… I wish ya luck.
      Just remember, the more jabs you take, the more spike protein floating around in your body for longer.

      • as virtually the opposite of what you say tends to be true, this is reassuring. thanks

      • @RG

        the more jabs you take, the more spike protein floating around in your body for longer.

        Well, yes, that is in fact what those vaccines are supposed to do: make sure that spike protein is produced, so that the immune system can develop an immune response against it. Which in turn helps people survive when they encounter the complete, potentially deadly virus.

        No, no need to thank me for explaining, I’m sure it must have been just a slight misunderstanding on your behalf.

        • Let’s see what the piece says Congress will be looking at, then.

          One goal of the committee is making sure the United States is prepared for future pandemics, “and that includes perfecting our vaccine development,” Rep. Mariannette Miller-Meeks (R-Iowa) told The Epoch Times via email. “In order to do so, we must have complete transparency in vaccine research, clinical trials and adverse reactions, and manufacturing.”

          “I expect our oversight hearings will shed light on the FDA approval process, the potential for side effects, and ultimately the success rate and safety of the vaccine—each of which will help us to navigate future global health emergencies,” she added.

          Whoa! Earthshaking stuff! Government doing what it is supposed to do!

          Meanwhile you and your fellow Trumpist pro-disease loons jam your tinfoil hats on a little more tightly. At what point will it dawn on you that you’re wrong, RG? Again?

          • @Lenny

            Wrong Lenny
            The Federal gov already has an agency to investigate vaccines that come to market, it’s known as the FDA.
            Congress doesn’t normally investigate every jab pill and procedure after it comes to the public use. Do ya think there might be some good reason that vaccines are coming into scrutiny?

          • Yes. New vaccines for a new disease which caused a pandemic. Hadn’t been seen in the modern era therefore the response needs to be scrutinised. We already know the vaccines are safe. There are those who deny this. These people are disease-promoting idiots.

        • @RG
          … …]

          Overall, we rate Truth Press Far-Right Biased and Questionable based on promoting propaganda, conspiracy theories, and pseudoscience. We also rate them Low for factual reporting due to the use of poor sources who frequently fail fact checks, blatant copyright infringement, and a total lack of transparency.

          Hint: whenever you encounter something with ‘truth’ in the name or caption, you can be 100% certain that someone is trying to sell you porky pies. No, again no need to thank me for this bit of good advice, it’s my pleasure really.

          • @Richard Rasker

            Sir, after John Cambell legitimacy was called into question yesterday as to this reliability of his publications, I easily linked other sources of the same narrative, and pointed out that he was only the messenger.

            So evidently you question the source rather than the subject matter. I offer to you – a reliable media source with left leaning tendencies.

            The same story from a different media source’

            Got any other ideas … Richard

          • Look what RG dragged in, a big rotting nothingburger. It’s Congress’s job to investigate things that they think are interesting, as it is every cat’s job to investigate shiny objects that it comes across.

            This time around, the pro-death party (Republican party) has a razor-thin majority in the House, despite all their grandstanding and hearing no substantial bill targeting vaccines and/or FDAs regulatory authority will pass the House. Even if it did, it will not pass Senate where Democrats have a majority. So, the only thing the looney toons (Republicans) in the House can do is have a hearing where they can scream like banshees. The media reports the hearing briefly and late night show hosts make fun of the loons and everyone forgets about it. Rinse and repeat.

          • @RG
            I really have no idea what you’re going on about. It appears that GOP potty mouth Taylor Greene believes most of the pro-death propaganda about vaccines – but she’s virtually alone in that, AFAICT.

            For all the rest, I think it’s OK to evaluate the way the government dealt with the pandemic, for reasons already mentioned. Here in the Netherlands, there’s also a public inquiry under way for much the same reasons. But even if those inquiries were instigated by right-wing extremists or other village idiots who believe that vaccines are Evil, the mere fact that these inquiries take place does not automatically mean that there’s anything wrong with those vaccines. I also can’t help but notice that you moved your references away from science towards politics – which is usually a sign that there are no good scientific arguments for any claims made in the first place.

          • @Talker

            So that’s your answer, it’s only because of the GOP majority ?

            How many other countries are looking at mRNA vaccine safety ?…. many.

            Sweeden and Denmark have paused Moderna injections.
            Germany did a Study to Evaluate the Safety and Immunogenicity of Vaccine CVnCoV in Healthy Adults for COVID-19
            France is skeptical of vaccine safety.
            Attitudes toward vaccinations are becoming more polarized in New Zealand
            Poland experienced vaccine skepticism
            Turkey experienced vaccine resistance, rejection and hesitation
            China’s Sinopharm vaccine was a dud, and now the Chinese are reluctant.
            Numerous countries cancelled the AZ and JnJ jabs. Although the JnJ is still available in on a limited basis. Evidently the spike protein alone was troublesome enough for those vaccines.

            I could go on much longer. So, let’s not make case that the USA is an anomaly.

          • I could go on much longer. So, let’s not make case that the USA is an anomaly.

            Dear COVID-loving RG,

            Bunch of useless idiots having hearings that amount to nothing is your argument for claiming vaccines are bad?

            Perhaps these hearings you follow so obsessively allow you to skip the dose of Viagra you take on the regular.

          • @RG
            Let’s face it: in every country, there are pro-death groups and people who promulgate their endless lies that vaccines are Bad and cause untold Death and Mayhem, and that people should stop using them.
            And yes, in every country, there are bound to be some rather stupid politicians (my apologies for the pleonasm) who listen to this crap.

            YOU are obviously one of those who listen this crap, given that you keep repeating those lies and nonsense here over and over again(*).

            Scientists and healthcare professionals however are unanimous: vaccines, including mRNA vaccines, are an EXTREMELY safe way to prevent serious illness and death. Vaccines are most likely the safest medical intervention ever – simply because they make clever use of our natural mechanisms to fight off disease. They don’t upset or influence the body’s chemistry like most drugs do, they simply present the immune system with a mugshot of the Bad Guy, and nothing else – a process that happens naturally dozens of times a day already, as we are constantly fighting off all sorts of harmful microbes.

            Just think about it: even Edward Jenner’s extremely crude vaccination method of collecting pus from cowpox and making small scratches on people’s arms that he subsequently infected with this pus not only worked quite well, but was pretty safe – just about as safe as causing any arbitrary small laceration.
            And since those days, vaccination has not only become even much safer still, but NOT A SINGLE VACCINE has ever turned out to cause serious, widespread harm in any significant way. Countless drugs have been pulled from the market because they unexpectedly turned out to cause harm after all – but not a single vaccine.
            Anyone suggesting that vaccination causes lots of harm and injury is at best a badly informed person who doesn’t know what he is talking about, and at worst a pro-death fanatic who actively tries to prevent people from getting themselves and their kids protected against potentially deadly diseases – simply because that is what they started believing in, and once that happens, all rationality goes out the window. I hope you will take the time to reflect on this: do you really believe what you’re saying here? If so, then I’m afraid that you have abandoned reason and insight.

            *: I guess the reason why Edzard tolerates it here is because what you say not only happens to be on-topic in this thread, but in fact is the topic of this thread.

          • @Richard Rasker

            Sir, you are completely deluded, you have no idea how wrong you are about scientist and healthcare professionals holding to wrong views. You blindly follow them to perpetuate this authoritarian governing.

            This was another pandemic lie… that face masks will prevent the spread and infection of the covid virus.
            From your beloved Trusted News Initiative source New York Times. Fauci, our politicians, CDC WHO and so on lead us astray. Mask mandates did NOTHING to help.

          • @RG
            Well, that seems to answer my question: you appear to be a True Believer indeed in all the lies, disinformation and other crap that constitute the subject of this thread. Scientists and medical experts are all wrong, and only your fellow believers are right.
            Thank you for providing those prolific examples of misinformation and disinformation; I can now rest assured that I need spend no more of my time on your contributions. Have a nice life, and I sincerely hope that you don’t run into any deadly viruses.

          • @Richard Rasker

            You said;
            “Have a nice life, and I sincerely hope that you don’t run into any deadly viruses.”

            I’ve already encountered one of the “most deadly’ viruses of our lifetime…. TWICE !
            Yes, twice I tested positive for covid-19 and was afflicted.

            Both times the severity was less (by an enormous degree) than other viruses I’ve encountered in my lifetime. First infection in Dec. 2020, three months before vaccination with JnJ jab.
            I applaud my magnificent immune system…. bravo !

          • I applaud my magnificent immune system…. bravo !


            You sir are full of it. The red banner says you need to support your statement with evidence. In order to test your magnificent immune system, I challenge you to go lick door handles at a shopping mall every day for a week. I need documentary evidence to ensure that you have performed the test and doctor’s report that proves you did not get sick afterwards. You should not have any difficulty completing my challenge, after all you claim to have a “magnificent immune system”.

            Off you go to the nearest mall!

          • @Honest Ape

            lol, funny that you ask for evidence that my immune system will protect me from disease. If I licked every doorknob I could find and reported my findings, you wouldn’t accept it because it would only by my anecdote…. not accepted here as evidence. You dumb ape, you should know better.
            Interesting how I post loads of links as evidence here that are not even responded to, but you ask for evidence of my anecdote…. strange.

            If I were to be a doorknob licker (as you suggest). I am quite confident that I would get ill from a virus. However, I doubt seriously that I would get ill to the point of anything close to hospitalization or death. Mr. Ape, I have no desire to become infected with even a slight illness. I’ll leave the knob licking to stupid apes like you.

          • I am quite confident that I would get ill from a virus. However, I doubt seriously that I would get ill to the point of anything close to hospitalization or death.


            According to you:

            The vaccine makers have admitted that their jabs don’t stop infection and transmission…..vaccine would give a patient with underlying conditions a degree of protection against severe illness


            Your “magnificent immune system” cannot stop you from getting infected, therefore it is no better than a mRNA jab, just like mRNA jabs it protects you from severe illness though.

            Your “magnificent immune system” is very similar to mRNA jabs.

            Bravo to your immune system indeed! Perhaps it is time you start calling mRNA jabs “magnificent mRNA jabs”?

            Quick, patent your “magnificent immune system” before big pharma comes after you.

          • @Honest Ape

            I’m pretty sure I stated that if I kissed doorknobs as you suggest, I am certain that I would get infected…. no ? …. yes.

            However, I misspoke. I should have conveyed instead… “the magnificent immune system of heathy humans”…. like me. It’s only because I’m in good health that my immune system can function at the intended level towards many viruses. Patients that have ill health have immune systems that are functioning at a low level. Immune systems that are distracted and bogged down fighting other noise… like inflammation, and metabolic disease. In many countries like the USA, about one third of the population is walking around with insulin resistance and pre-diabetic but have no clue. These are the people who become statistics.

          • OK RG, if you says so.

            According to you, mRNA jabs have the safe effect as the magnificent immune systems of heathy humans like yourself. In other words, natural immunity is very similar to vaccine induced immunity. 🐵🐵🐵

      • Why would anyone want to heed your warnings, RG? After all you have proven yourself to be staunchly pro-death and pro-pestilence.

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