MD, PhD, FMedSci, FRSB, FRCP, FRCPEd.

Physicians who include so-called alternative medicine (SCAM) in their practice are thought to have an understanding of health and disease different from that of colleagues practicing conventional medicine. The aim of this study was to identify and compare the thoughts and concepts concerning infectious childhood diseases (measles, mumps, rubella, chickenpox, pertussis, and scarlet fever) of physicians practicing homeopathic, anthroposophic and conventional medicine.

This qualitative study used semistructured interviews. Participating physicians were either general practitioners or pediatricians. Data collection and analysis were guided by a grounded theory approach.

Eighteen physicians were interviewed (6 homeopathic, 6 anthroposophic, and 6 conventional). All physicians agreed that while many classic infectious childhood diseases such as measles, mumps, and rubella are rarely observed today, other diseases, such as chickenpox and scarlet fever, are still commonly diagnosed. All interviewed physicians vaccinated against childhood diseases.

  • A core concern for physicians practicing conventional medicine was the risk of complications of the diseases. Therefore, it was considered essential for them to advise their patients to strictly follow the vaccination schedule.
  • Homeopathic-oriented physicians viewed acute disease as a biological process necessary to strengthen health, fortify the immune system and increase resistance to chronic disease. They tended to treat infectious childhood diseases with homeopathic remedies and administered available vaccines as part of individual decision-making approaches with parents.
  • For anthroposophic-oriented physicians, infectious childhood diseases were considered a crucial factor in the psychosocial growth of children. They tended to treat these diseases with anthroposophic medicine and underlined the importance of the family’s resources. Informing parents about the potential benefits and risks of vaccination was considered important.

All physicians agreed that parent-delivered loving care of a sick child could benefit the parent-child relationship. Additionally, all recognized that existing working conditions hindered parents from providing such care for longer durations of time.

The authors concluded that the interviewed physicians agreed that vaccines are an important aspect of modern pediatrics. They differed in their approach regarding when and what to vaccinate against. The different conceptual understandings of infectious childhood diseases influenced this decision-making. A survey with a larger sample would be needed to verify these observations.

The authors (members of a pro-SCAM research group) stress that the conventional physicians saw many risks in the natural course of classic childhood illnesses and appreciated vaccinations as providing relief for the child and family. By contrast, the physicians trained in homeopathy or anthroposophic medicine expected more prominent unknown risks because of vaccinations, due to suppression of the natural course of the disease. Different concepts of disease lead to differences in the perceptions of risk and the benefit of prevention measures. While prevention in medicine aims to eliminate classic childhood diseases, anthroposophic and homeopathic literature also describes positive aspects of undergoing these diseases for childhood development.

This paper thus provides intriguing insights into the bizarre thinking of doctors who practice homeopathy and anthroposophical medicine. The authors of the paper seem content with explaining and sometimes even justifying these beliefs, creeds, concepts, etc. They make no attempt to discuss the objective truths in these matters or to disclose the errors in the thought processes that underly homeopathy and anthroposophical medicine. They also tell us that ALL  the interviewed physicians vaccinated children. They, however, fail to provide us with information on whether these doctors all recommend vaccinations for all patients against all the named infectious diseases. From much of previous research, we have good reasons to fear that their weird convictions often keep them from adhering strictly to the current immunization guidelines.

 

17 Responses to More information on homeopaths’ and anthroposophic doctors’ attitude towards vaccinations

  • In the UK, the GMC is responsible for regulating medical education, (that was it’s original raison d’etre ), and, by inference, those who seek to enter medicine and become physicians, of any sort.

    I know nothing of current entry standards – they seem to be algorithmic and based on A levels.
    In my day we had an interview, and I interviewed potential candidates for KCL when I was a lecturer there.

    But is there not a case for inquiring of the GMC whether bizarre beliefs should exclude from entry? Should students be monitored more closely during their training? I don’t object to any doctor holding beliefs (having no evidence in support), but the issue is whether they allow these beliefs to impinge on their care for patients. It’s called ‘professional integrity’.

    The GMC forbids religious beliefs to impinge on care and doctors must not prosletise.

  • These anthroposophic and homeopathic physicians hold “beliefs” that are not based on logic, evidence or science – they are based on the religious like cults to which they belong.
    In other words they continue to hold on to them in the face of evidence and reason.

    There is zero evidence that suffering through these childhood diseases confers any benefit upon the child.
    On the contrary there is an additional risk of injury or in some cases even death.
    In addition there is the untold unnecessary misery for the child and the disruption and often financial cost to the family, and often the impact upon education.

    So there is a significant possibility of loss against zero benefit. There should be no debate.
    There ought not to be room for physicians to practice irrational and unethical medicine – there ought to be clear guidelines where “the only reasonable course of action is…….”

    One’s healthcare should not be a lottery dependent upon whether one is unlucky enough to unwittingly choose an anthroposophic or homeopathic loon as your doctor whose thinking is unhinged because of their bizarre beliefs. These people are unable to think for themselves but instead blindly follow the teachings either of someone who believed in the magick of diluted water or alternatively a proponent of the occult who denied the heart was responsible for the circulation of the blood! (or sometimes both at once!)

    There ought to be a means of weeding out such quacks and relegating them to the fairgrounds as the sellers of snake-oil that they are.

    • @john travis

      John, many a many of what you call “religious cult” followers have been exposed to CON-Med, they simply did not find the “evidence” promised in healing to keep them coming back for more…. for better or worse. So they sought out other remedies. Do not assume they can not “reason” for themselves. Nobody needs a nanny state to tell us what is good or bad…. let the buyer beware.
      Dummies still choose to smoke tobacco everyday, and it’s legal. I’ve smoked a few cigars myself.
      A lifetime of cigs is far worse for health than choosing to see a “quack” now and them….as you can them. Folks (patients) in the USA have died at a high rate from the Covid virus. Why is this ? Because in spite of the majority of them using CON-Med, they are extremely unhealthy. Unhealthy from a sedentary lifestyle, unhealthy from crap food, and unhealthy from a steady dies of meds… from Dr. Pfizer & Dr. Johnson. More than 80% of the people in the US that died from covid virus were over 65 years. Patients that take more meds than anybody in the world ( meds from a MD, yes… science based meds). Many of these meds do give little benefit for them, but the continue taking them like good lost sheep that listen to everything their quack CON-Med Dr. tells them

      Do you think your science based medicine has “cures” more than homeopathy ? …. not really, both are largely treating symptoms, and neither Science based medicine(CON-Med) is doing a good job of curing anyone of anything. CON-Med just happens to use a steady diet of pills, homeopathy not so much.

      Of all you said John, this short statement repulsed me more than anything;

      “There should be no debate.”

      lol…. you are the new cancel culture they speak of. If somebody doesn’t think the same as you, just mow them down and shut their mouths ? Eliminate them from the conversation ? don’t let anybody speak that disagrees with your thought…. wow, the thought police are here, you are the thought police…. John
      You don’t want to have a debate because you are arrogant. You seem to think the other side is incapable of thinking. …. PUKE ! … you make me sick.

      • @RG

        I think if I make you sick then that is a good thing.

        as for people not needing protection from themselves – time and again that has been demonstrated NOT to be the case.
        People – the general public – are not usually in the best position to decide what is best in a multitude of cases.

        Just think of how much education and legislation it took for car seatbelts and motorcycle helmets to be “forced” on a public who resisted them every step of the way. Yet they save countless lives and prevent severe injuries at an enormous rate.

        The same applies to legislation related to baby carriers and booster seats in cars to transport children safely.
        To legislation on MOTs to ensure that cars are roadworthy.
        To legislation to ensure that products being sold pass certain safety standards.
        Legislation on food safety.

        Left to its own devices the public that you so ignorantly claim would be able to look after itself would gladly (and prior to the legislation did in fact do so) drive around with babies and young children loose in cars – said children would become projectiles in the event of a car crash.
        Most people left to their own devices could not be trusted to get their own vehicles reliably tested and repaired to a safe standard if they could save money by failing to do so. Prior to compulsory testing this is exactly what actually happened!
        And judging by the careless, immoral, ignorant and sociopathic tenor of your posts I have no doubt that you would be one such individual – loudly proclaiming “your rights” to do as you like.

        Without food safety regulations any jackass could set up a food supply with contaminated produce, poor storage, inadequate handling and spread salmonella or other pathogens without any recourse. The incentives would always be to sacrifice safety for profits. The public would always be tempted to risk safety for cost cutting and in your world of de-regulation they would have no way of knowing which sources were safe and which were dangerous.
        As per usual you never think things through but just spew whatever nonsense percolates to the surface.

        Regarding SCAM people most definitely do need to be told that they are being conned. Real doctors are prevented from promising miracle cures by their decency and ethics and the fact that there ARE no miracle cures.
        SCAMmers such as yourself are free, and do, lie to your heart’s content, promising miracle cures by the bucketful.
        Making wild fantasy enticing dreamlike visions and all the while disparaging real medicine.
        And when your first-line SCAM fails there is always an excuse – usually the patient’s fault, or the stars are not aligned or some such rubbish, and so they are suckered in for yet another SCAM which will be just as useless.

        There are many reasons why people may be falsely led to believe that inactive treatments may be helping them – ever heard of placebos? The seductive lies of SCAMmers certainly go a long way. That doesn’t make it ethical or even legal and people ought to be warned that they are wasting their money.
        It is no different from selling them a fake vacuum cleaner, or fake insurance or any other kind of SCAM.

        see here: https://quackwatch.org/related/altbelief/

        Your ramblings about smoking and over-65s and people taking medicine are incoherent nonsense. Were you trying to make an argument of some kind? As usual you failed even to make any sense. You need to work on your basic comprehension and articulation skills if you wish to communicate more coherently.
        I think you are so caught up in your own conspiracy theories that not even you are sure what you believe any more.

        “Do you think your science based medicine has “cures” more than homeopathy ? …. not really, both are largely treating symptoms…..”
        Once again you simply betray your appalling ignorance of medicine and science. Why don’t you just give up? Or at lest try to educate yourself better before spouting pure drivel?
        Homeopathy is a pre-scientific belief system that uses inert substances that can have no possible biological effect upon the human body. It is complete and utter nonsense. Therefore it cannot treat any disease nor can it relieve any symptoms except by chance through the placebo effect.

        Real medicine by contrast consists of treatment intended to have real effects upon the physiological, anatomical and biochemical systems of the body, and upon any disease processes therein and upon and foreign agents such as viruses, bacteria etc. And you are wrong – the intention is not only to treat symptoms (such as pain) but to have an effect upon the underlying disease process. This has been the case for a very long time and is a very important part of the process.

        e.g. treating Rheumatoid Arthritis, Inflammatory Bowel Disease, Coronary Artery Disease, Cancers of many kinds, Auto-Immune diseases, Asthma, HIV, etc
        In fact it is difficult to think of any chronic condition where it is NOT the aim to treat the underlying condition in order to moderate or suppress it rather than just “treat the symptoms.”
        It may not always be possible to achieve a “cure” but in many of these cases people are enable to live much more comfortable and near normal lives as a result.

        That is something that cannot be said for SCAMmers.

        Where SCAMmers usually clean up is in vague areas where there is diagnostic doubt or where there are no effective therapies or where the SCAMMers have managed to create a public atmosphere of misinformation and celebrity forum of hysteria and nonsense. Here they can thrive by throwing all manner of ridiculous fake therapies into the mix and preying upon desperate people who will sell all their possessions to try one last roll of the die.
        Often they add fake diagnoses to the list, claiming that real doctors have missed them. Of course they have – because they don’t exist!

        So you have clinics for Chronic Lyme disease, Multiple chemical Sensitivity, EMF sensitivity, Detoxing, and so on – and there ought to be public protection from these because these entities do not exist and people are wasting their money.

        RG said:
        Of all you said John, this short statement repulsed me more than anything;

        “There should be no debate.”

        lol…. you are the new cancel culture they speak of. If somebody doesn’t think the same as you, just mow them down and shut their mouths ?

        This is the context in which I made that remark – and of course once again you are quite WRONG as per usual.
        There are many areas in which there should be NO debate – not everything is up for debate. In your world you seem to believe that every single thing is a matter of opinion and argument – well that is not the case.

        There are certain things that are not up for debate. e.g. cold-blooded murder is wrong – there is no debate.
        Facts are not a matter of debate – facts just are. We cannot have a “debate” about whether the earth is flat or spherical and “the winner is…..” A fact is a fact and is not a matter of debate – you are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

        Sex with underage children is wrong and harmful for the child – there is no debate unless you are a pervert.
        The earth is 4.5 billion years old – unless you are a deluded young earth creationist – there is no debate.

        What I said was:
        “There is zero evidence that suffering through these childhood diseases confers any benefit upon the child.
        On the contrary there is an additional risk of injury or in some cases even death.
        In addition there is the untold unnecessary misery for the child and the disruption and often financial cost to the family, and often the impact upon education.

        So there is a significant possibility of loss against zero benefit. There should be no debate.”

        I don’t give a fig if you found that repulsive. This has nothing to do with “cancel culture” or free speech or any other of your stock in trade cliches that stand in for actual thinking or sensible comments in your sphere.
        In your far-right libertarian view of the world everybody’s views are as good as anybody else’s – no matter how ill-informed, misguided, dangerous, stupid, cult-like or downright deranged.

        Are you really incapable of understanding how ridiculous that stance is? How in fact one ought to give more weight to the views of those with more balanced and nuanced view-points, those who are better informed and educated on the relevant subjects? That we should have learned from history where society can be led by following those who are misguided by extreme beliefs that are founded upon the occult, ideologies, identity politics, religious figures and suchlike?

        “You don’t want to have a debate because you are arrogant.”
        YOU accuse me of being arrogant! That is rich from someone who presents no facts or cogent arguments, only unintelligible incoherent ramblings and invective. You are the one making arrogant dismissals of science and medicine with absolutely no evidence and making pejorative remarks about me without cause.
        Try backing up your wild accusations instead of just throwing dung randomly.
        Debate is in fact EXACTLY what I am trying to engage in only you are far too steeped in conspiracy thinking and far-right ideology and alt-med lunacy to be able to engage in anything resembling a vaguely coherent discussion let alone a debate.

        You have yet to present anything resembling an argument against science or anything that would in any way support alt med. All you do is arrogantly and ignorantly state your opinions as though they were facts and we should all believe them as Holy Writ.

        Who elected you Pope?

  • Anthroposophists see these childhood illnesses as the child’s way of working off karma from previous incarnations. This belief (or rather complex of beliefs) are absolutely central to Anthroposophy, and rejecting them would remove several of the central pillars of the system, which is why they won’t even consider questioning it. (Nor could they have learned any *way* of questioning it from Steiner.)

    As a former teacher in the Steiner school system, I know that teachers often have one version of the teachings that they tell the uninitiated public (who are ‘less spiritually developed’ than their Anthroposophical overlords), and I assume it’s exactly the same with doctors. Plus they have a built in excuse to absolve their own consciences of of guilt for unnecessary deaths of small children: it was because of the child’s particular karma that the child died. And anyway, “The kid will soon get reborn again anyway, so don’t blame us.”

    • @ Yakaru

      I am sure you are right – but this is simply further argument that such people have no business being responsible in any way for children – or for anyone’s health or wellbeing for that matter.
      It ought to be incumbent on the relevant authorities to ensure that people in such positions do not hold such outre beliefs that are incompatible with the competent and responsible conduct of their duties and responsibilities.

      Having a religious or spiritual belief that puts one in such a position is simply no excuse.

  • I think that those homeopaths and anthroposophic ‘doctors’ should read this: https://ourworldindata.org/child-mortality-in-the-past
    “in the past around one-quarter of infants died in their first year of life and around half of all children died before they reached the end of puberty.”
    So THIS is what happens when children ‘naturally’ contract all sorts of childhood diseases, and get ‘treatments’ that best case amount to placebos – just like the ones offered by our modern-day homeopaths.

    For the life of me I cannot understand why these people think that this is somehow beneficial for children.

  • Amazing arrogance of the religious believers in “scientific” conventional medicine.

    We have an epidemic of chronic conditions & disease in children starting in the late 80’s after the CDC’s recommended vaccine schedule started ballooning, so that now more 50% of children in the USA have some sort of chronic condition including lots of autoimmune conditions. Many that were once un-heard of.

    But lets not question the wisdom of injecting Immune stimulating substances past the body’s innate immune defenses which normally handle toxins and microbes in the skin and mucous membranes. Lets not study to see if there is any relation between the vaccines and the many chronic diseases.

    Some examples. Peanut allergies were unheard of, but now very common. And peanut oil is just one of the many adjuvants used in vaccines. By court order the CDC took down from the website their claim that Vaccines dont cause autism, because they couldnt produce any studies showing that the 6 vaccines required in early childhood dont cause autism. They had not performed the required studies. They put the invalid claim back up out of embarrassment. Prior to the measles vaccines we had true long-term herd immunity. Now that has been lost and we need to keep re-vaccinating to maintain immunity. Polio has come back in a mutated form that was spread via vaccines. We who were vaccinated are not immune to this new form.

    I guess in the modern climate of “science” only perceived short term benefits and corporate profits are to be considered. Its “weird” or “bizarre” to consider any long term consequences or to trust our native healthy immune systems which can be improved (including the innate) over poorly tested vaccines.

    • @Roger
      Sorry old chap, but this attempt at trolling is simply not good enough. Hint: if you try to provoke and annoy people with long-debunked nonsense, try being a bit more subtle next time.

    • @ RG

      Amazing arrogance of the religious believers in “scientific” conventional medicine.

      Once again the ignorance and failure to understand is staggering. The whole basis of the way science works is to constantly challenge itself, to constantly try to disprove hypotheses, to try to remove bias and ways in which scientists could be tricked by humans’ natural tendencies to see unintended patterns, wished for results, chance happenings and so on.

      It is the very OPPOSITE of a religious belief system. It is constantly skeptical, self-critical, testing and challenging.
      This is how you repeatedly display your deep ignorance of how science and medicine work.

      “We have an epidemic of chronic conditions & disease in children starting in the late 80’s after the CDC’s recommended vaccine schedule started ballooning, so that now more 50% of children in the USA have some sort of chronic condition including lots of autoimmune conditions.”

      More arrant nonsense. This is not even remotely close to being true. where did you get these figures – from the back of a cereal packet?
      Secondly repeat after me “correlation is not causation.” Please repeat at least 10 times.
      Just because one thing follows another it does not follow that the first CAUSED the second.
      Every day the postman brings the mail to my house and every day my dog barks like mad. My dog is convinced that the mailman goes away because of his barking. But the mailman would have gone away anyway.
      Roger of course would be a believer in the barking makes mailman go away theory.

      There have been numerous studies on whether vaccines have any deleterious effects upon the immune systems of children and none have been observed. These associations with this fantasy epidemic of chronic diseases in children exist only in the minds of people like Roger and the loons on anti-vaccine websites.

      If he stopped to think about it instead of ranting blindly he would realize there is no reason why they should. All a vaccine does is to present a fake version of the measles/pertussis or whatever antigen to the body instead of the real disease carrying virus antigen – it is really just a copy, like a carbon copy of a document.
      But the “fake” or copy antigen comes without all the damaging baggage of the real virus – in that it can’t cause the real disease. But in all other respects, as far as your immune system is concerned, it’s the same as getting the infection. (In fact it is often better as adjuvants can stimulate a stronger immune reaction and give better immunity than the real disease.)

      Why should this be any different from the immune system reacting to the natural disease?

      “wisdom of injecting Immune stimulating substances past the body’s innate immune defenses which normally handle toxins and microbes in the skin and mucous membranes.”
      what are you waffling on about?
      vaccines are mostly injected because there is too much chance of them being inactivated in the GI tract if taken orally and the effectiveness would be patchy at best. plus the efficacy is going to be greater.
      It is not a case of avoiding the body’s immune system – the whole bloody point is to STIMULATE the body’s immune system to REACT to what you are injecting! You would look less foolish if you just kept quiet.

      “Some examples. Peanut allergies were unheard of, but now very common. And peanut oil is just one of the many adjuvants used in vaccines.”
      NOW you really have excelled yourself. PEANUT OILS ARE NOT AND NEVER HAVE BEEN USED AS ADJUVANTS IN ANY VACCINES IN THE US OR THE UK. EVER.
      You are talking straight out of the anti-vaccine myth play-book of utter excretum tauri.
      This is completely and utterly false. Never happened.
      THEREFORE VACCINES CANNOT BE THE CAUSE OF PEANUT ALLERGIES. PERIOD.
      https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/pharmaceutical-companies-peanut-oil-vaccines/

      You really are the promoter of the most utter and most complete random nonsense and misinformation in a most shameless and truly ignorant fashion.

      Your claims regarding vaccines and autism again demonstrate your wilful twisting of facts and ignorance of science.
      1) It is almost impossible to prove a negative. It is impossible to prove that apples don’t cause cancer. All you can do is demonstrate that lots of people eat apples and that people who eat lots of apples don’t get more cancer than people who eat few or none so that makes it very unlikely – but hidden in the stats may be some rare forms of cancer caused by apples that we missed, or some types of apples that cause certain cancers. We can just say that we have lots and lots of evidence and none of it show the slightest suspicion that apples cause cancer.
      It is the same with vaccines. THERE IS TONS AND TONS of evidence and not the slightest suspicion that they cause autism. The whole thing is a conspiracy theory. Andrew Wakefield made this whole thing up in order to sell his single dose version of the MMR vaccine for profit.

      2) In science the onus of proof is on the person making the claim. If you believe the world is run by lizard gods from the planet Zog then it is up to you to prove your crazy theory. No-one is obliged to disprove every crackpot’s loony theories.

      “Prior to the measles vaccines we had true long-term herd immunity. Now that has been lost and we need to keep re-vaccinating to maintain immunity.”
      The stupid here really hurts!
      This is so wrong it’s not even wrong!
      First the term “herd immunity” has ONLY EVER been applied to immunity induced by vaccination. So your use of the term to imply that it somehow existed by infection from natural disease is WRONG by definition and is sheer nonsense.
      “Herd immunity” has NEVER in the history of human epidemics been achieved ever. What has happened is that there have been somewhat “steady states” where a large percentage of the population would have achieved some sort of immunity – but there would still exist pools of people who were not immune and of course people would continue to be born who would not be immune and travellers would continue to spread the disease.
      In these situations outbreaks would continue to occur amongst the non-immune causing disease, sickness, perhaps death and whatever else depending upon the disease.
      But “herd immunity” was never achieved.

      So you are totally erroneous to suggest that there was ever a time when “herd immunity” was achieved for measles from natural infection. If such had occurred then there would have been no new cases of measles occurring would there? Yet obviously new measles cases were occurring in great numbers BEFORE the introduction of vaccinations.
      So exactly what kind of utter nonsense are you ranting on about? Do you even think before you write this crap?

      To achieve “herd immunity” with the measles vaccine it is estimated that a level of immunity of around 95% of the population is required to prevent the remaining 5% from being infected – these might be those with genuine contraindications, babies below 12 months of age, the immunocompromised etc.
      This is where misinfromed ideologues such as yourself come in with their ignorant anti-vaccine lies and scare stories attempting to prevent people getting vaccinated and thereby failing to achieve that 95% target.
      This sabotage ensure true herd immunity is never reached so that measles continues to ravage small sections of the population – I hope this makes you very happy that your handiwork causes such misery, suffering and the risk of permanent injury and death to innocent children – and all because of ignorance and misinformed ideology.

      ” Polio has come back in a mutated form that was spread via vaccines. We who were vaccinated are not immune to this new form. ”

      Again the stupid is so searing.
      Polio never went away! Once again thanks to anti-vaccine zealots like yourself.
      It was nearly eradicated like smallpox except for a few holdout areas in Afghanistan and Pakistan where thanks to the spread of misinformation and even the killings of vaccine workers its eradication has been delayed.

      I will not even try to explain to you the complex interplay between the ways in which the live and inactive polio vaccines are used in the heroic efforts to exterminate this appalling disease – I cannot imagine for a moment your being able to comprehend the nuances, or being even willing to try.
      There are complex logistical and practical reasons for preferring the one over the other in certain situations but when warfare, insurrections, misinformed interference, attacks on healthcare workers, anti-vaccine zealots such as yourself spreading ignorance and lies and so on interfere with the schedules then there can be consequences.
      And people such as yourself must take responsibility for much of this – if you were not so quick to spread misinformation and lies and your arrogant ideological nonsense then these vaccination programmes would have a better chance of succeeding and achieving total eradication of this disease forever.
      Once again happy with yourself Roger for your part in keeping Polio from being eradicated from the face of the earth?
      How proud you must be – what an achievement!

      “I guess in the modern climate of “science” only perceived short term benefits and corporate profits are to be considered. Its “weird” or “bizarre” to consider any long term consequences or to trust our native healthy immune systems which can be improved (including the innate) over poorly tested vaccines.”

      More ignorant and vapid nonsense. You scorn science. What would you replace it with? Astrology? Guesswork? Throwing a die? Seriously what would you replace it with? Or maybe just Roger’s gut instinct?

      “Short term benefits.” The eradication of smallpox and the near eradication of polio just for starters – short term benefits. For god’s sake grow up Roger. What benefits have homeopathy, chiropractic or reiki even conferred on mankind. You do talk such utter rot.

      “corporate profits ” well we all know homeopaths, chiros, reiki masters etc all give their services for free. Boiron who make homeopathic medicines make nearly $1 billion dollars a year so you don’t object to big homeopathy then?
      Alt-med is worth 100s of billions of dollars a year – did you think they all did it for free?
      Big supplement rakes in tens of billions a year – what about that?
      Pure hypocrisy!
      And in fact vaccines make relatively little profit for drug companies – the big money is on drugs people take day after day for years! Not on vaccines you have once a year or less.

      “trust our native healthy immune systems which can be improved (including the innate) over poorly tested vaccines. ”

      More complete hogwash. Don’t you ever consider engaging your brain before touching your keyboard? It might help in making you look slightly less compromised in the grey cell department.
      If our immune systems were so perfectly able to fight off all infections them in the past people wouldn’t have suffered with all the complications of a measles infection – seizures, permanent deafness, encephalitis, blindness, death, pneumonia, Subacute sclerosing panencephalitis (SSPE), miscarriage, suppressed immunity so a year or more and wiping out previous immunity to other infections. and many more.

      That is the whole intent behind vaccination – to develop the immunity without having to suffer the pretty awful misery of the disease and the risk of the rather nasty complications.
      To anyone who is not completely stupid, an ideologue, a paid up cult member of the alt-med true believer squad, a swallower of the kool-aid – then this vaccination versus depending upon imperfect “natural immunity” is obviously a win-win situation.
      There is an over-abundance of evidence available to anyone who wishes to look for it on the safety and efficacy of vaccinations. The risk-benefit ratio is so heavily weighted in favour of vaccines as to make the choice as simple as asking if one wants to play Russian roulette with a revolver with six empty chambers or the one loaded with six bullets.
      But I suspect that you would struggle even with making that kind of choice.

      You claim that vaccines have not been tested. This is a typical alt-med and anti-vaccine LIE. Vaccines have been thoroughly and repeatedly tested and there is ample documentation for anyone who has half a brain and the ability to use it to go look for it. But of course alt-med luddites like yourself prefer to sit and say “vaccines have never been tested – na na di na na!”
      Extremes have even been gone to .. In spite of the complete and absolute lack of any evidence that thiomersal could be causing any harmful effects in childhood vaccines, because of the ignorant and un-hinged rantings of the anti-vaccine crowd manufacturers removed thiomersal from all standard childhood vaccines years ago. Just to pacify the mob.

      Of course many of the anti-vaccine loons continue to rant about mercury being in vaccines – because like you they don’t let facts get in the way of a good rant. And in spite of the fact that thiomersal never showed any hint of harm. And of course many years after its removal there was no change in the incidence of autism either – even if further proof were needed.

      But then we all know that you are not interested in facts, or debate, or in what’s right or wrong.
      You are just interested in promulgating your ideology, in repeating the lies you get from your echo-chamber websites or face-book pages, never bothering to question them or fact check them.

      “healthy immune systems which can be improved (including the innate) ”
      another typical trope of the alt-med infected mind. This reliance upon the holy “innate immune system”
      If the immune system is so wonderful then why do people get infections and die?
      Why did they keep getting infections and die all through the past ages?
      Oh I know – you and your ilk will say it was because they weren’t taking this or that supplement, or weren’t having reiki, or weren’t having some homeopathic nonsense. But this is all more excretum tauri.

      In fact science made the greatest impact upon helping the immune system fight infection with the introduction of anti-biotics and people recovered from infections that would have otherwise have completely overwhelmed their “innate” and killed them.
      And BTW contrary to what all alt med loonies say – THERE IS NO WAY TO BOOST YOUR IMMUNE SYSTEM! And if there were it would probably be a bad idea. We have all seen what an over-active immune system can do in the form of allergies and auto-immune disease.
      Yet more evidence (if any were needed) that you and your alt-med pals are talking out of the wrong orifice yet again.

      I mean you have, in one short post, yet again got so many simple basic yet important thing so completely and brazenly WRONG!
      How could you have believed that they ever used peanut oil in vaccines? one of the oldest lies in vaccine crankdom!
      Yet you swallowed it hook, line and sinker – as you swallow all the other lies.
      You believe anything and everything they tell you. You fact check nothing.
      You have no powers of critical or rational thinking. NONE.
      You are far far down the rabbit hole of ideology and conspiracy theory thinking and are unable to think for yourself.
      Instead you just mouth whatever rubbish you read on some random anti-vaccine website and credulously believe whatever fatuous nonsense you are fed.

      Are you proud of these credentials Roger?

    • Roger

      I’m trying to find something you’ve written there which isn’t palpably and demostrably false.

      I can’t.

      You are wrong about literally EVERYTHING that you have written. Well done. That’s quite an achievement.

      What you have provided, however, is an object leson in the warped thought-processes of those who continue to believe in the magic powers of shaken water.

  • “By court order the CDC took down from the website their claim that Vaccines dont cause autism, because they couldnt produce any studies showing that the 6 vaccines required in early childhood dont cause autism. They had not performed the required studies.”

    This is nonsensical!

    Nor have the needed studies been performed to establich that Bertrand Russell’s posited teapot too small to be seen by telescopes does not, in fact, orbit Jupiter.

    For all we know, he could be wrong – it might be a coffee pot.

  • Fortunately, doctors who practice homeopathy are rare in the UK and anthroposophical doctors are even rarer. Numbers seem to be declining as well if the Faculty of Homeopathy is anything to go by.

    Dr Jayne Donegan has had stringent conditions placed on her practice by the GMC because of her anti-vaccination activities and it would be unsurprising if she were eventually struck off or decided to retire. Whether this is indicative of the GMC taking a tougher line that their German counterparts is unclear. It’s possible that media coverage and undercover footage prompted them to act. Donegan’s activities have been known about for years. Things like turning up at homeoprophylaxis events.

    I’m curious to know how prevalent anti-vaccination is among German heilpraktikers. It is certainly widespread among UK lay homeopaths and their ilk.

  • There seems to be a notion that “natural immunity” following a disease strengthens the immune system, whereas vaccination weakens it. Leaving aside the naive and greatly oversimplified view of the immune system that goes along with such a belief, there is no reason to suppose that it is true. For instance measles is very harmful to the immune system and resets immune memory, removing protection from previously-encountered diseases (and in the process triples the mortality from other infectious diseases over the following few years in children who have recovered from measles). Evidence is also accumulating that the coronavirus vaccines provide better protection than a previous infection does, though it is still to early to be sure of this.

    This, of course, assumes that the individual survives the diseases that vaccination is intended to prevent.

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