MD, PhD, FMedSci, FRSB, FRCP, FRCPEd.

The drop in cases and deaths due to COVID-19 infections in India has been attributed to India’s national policy of using homeopathy. Early in the epidemic, the national “Ministry of AYUSH, recommended the use of Arsenic album 30 as preventive medicine against COVID-19. Its prophylactic use has been advised in states like Karnataka, Tamil Nadu, Kerala, and Maharashtra. The ‘OFFICIAL HOMEOPATHY RESOURCE’ is now claiming that homeopathy is the cause of the observed outcome:

And now the results of that policy and use are clear, even though skeptics and other scientists in the conventional paradigm are mystified as to why the drop is so dramatic. They know nothing about homeopathy and its history of successfully treating epidemics.

India has a population of 1 billion, 300 million people. Relative to this massive population the number of cases per day and especially the number of deaths per day are now exceptionally low. According to the Daily Mail:

“Scientists are trying to work out why coronavirus cases in India are falling when at one point it looked like the country might overtake the US as the worst-hit nation.
In September the country was reporting some 100,00 new cases per day, but that went into decline in October and is now sitting at around 10,000 per day – leaving experts struggling to explain why.”

END OF QUOTE

According to my sources, the number of daily new cases in India rose steadily to reach its maximum of almost 100000 new cases per day in mid-September. Thereafter, the figure fell in almost the same fashion as they had previously risen.

Currently, they have reached a plateau of about 13000 cases per day, and around 100 patients per day are reported to dies of COVID-19 every day. There are several possible contributors to these relatively positive outcomes:

  • India has administered the Covid-19 vaccine to about 10 million people in one month since launching the world’s largest vaccination program on Jan. 16. However, this timing cannot explain the fall of cases before mid-January.
  • The Indian government has attributed the dip in cases partly to mask-wearing, which is mandatory in public in India and violations can draw hefty fines.
  • Large areas of India have reached herd immunity.
  • Some of the various non-homeopathic remedies that have been recommended by the Ministry of AYUSH might be effective.
  • There might be a host of other factors that I don’t know about.
  • The figures coming out of India may not be reliable.
  • The homeopathic remedy Arsenic album 30 might indeed be an effective preventative.

Which of these explanations are valid?

Most likely, it is not one but several working together. However, the hypothesis that homeopathy has anything to do with the course of the pandemic in India seems most unlikely. Apart from the fact that highly diluted homeopathic remedies are implausible and have not been shown to be effective, the timing of events is clearly against this explanation: if I am correctly informed, the homeopathic remedies were dished out months before the decline in cases started. In fact, simply going by the timing, one would need to assume that homeopathy led to the enormous increase before the remarkable drop.

Of course, it would be interesting to see the results of the homeopathy trials that allegedly started in India about 8 months ago. They could bring us closer to the truth. But somehow, I am not holding my breath.

72 Responses to Has homeopathy caused the dramatic decline of COVID-19 cases in India?

  • No, it’s a natural progression.

  • ” In fact, simply going by the timing, one would need to assume that homeopathy led to the enormous increase before the remarkable drop”.

    Initial aggravation!

    Unfortunate if some get Aggravated to death….

  • This article in the Times on Monday suggests that things are a bit more complicated than the self-appointed “Official” Homeopathy Resource pretends:
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/eb796c0a-6f9f-11eb-811f-f64a7b4cb430?shareToken=f0bb2616e86d5fa62880cc8ac9751cc2

  • They know nothing about homeopathy and its history of successfully treating epidemics.

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t India always one of the countries with the lowest life expectancy, the worst public health record, and the scene of some of the worst epidemics the world has ever seen? And that WITH homeopathy AND ayurveda?

    It appears that the Ministry of AYUSH plays one of the oldest tricks in the book, i.e. the ‘Three-Step Strategy to Success’ as I call it:

    1. For of any medical problem (anything from one case of runny nose to a pandemic affecting millions), promote the use of alternative ‘medicine’.
    2. Wait for the situation to resolve.
    3. Claim success.

  • a priori homeopathy has no scientific basis or plausibility so there is no logical reason to suspect that it would have had anything to do with either the prevention or successful treatment of Covid-19.

    there is no actual evidence being produced to demonstrate that homeopathy has in fact been successful in either case. Where are the RCTs demonstrating that the homeopathic arms of these studies did indeed fare better?

    All of this is wishful thinking and propaganda as per usual. There are many other factors that are far more probable as out-lined in the Times article especially the demographics. There may well be other factors that have not been considered yet. When you hear hoofbeats think horses not zebras – only a fantasist or someone unhinged from reality would imagine that ultra-diluted substances that no longer contain active ingredients which themselves are chosen for fantastical reasons could have any real world effect in a pandemic.

    Also correlation is not causation. Just because you are taking a homeopathic nostrum and you do not contract Covid-19 is not evidence that the former is the cause of the latter. I have been drinking black coffee brewed from Columbian coffee beans every morning throughout the pandemic and I have not caught Covid-19 either – do you think I could get this published as a paper somewhere? Should I be encouraging my obviously highly successful “preventative” to everyone?

    The people promoting this nonsense are as dumb as a rock – and this is dangerous nonsense. It is harming the vaccination uptake and promotion in India as well as distancing and masking precautions putting more people in harm’s way. This is not a victimless crime.

  • Maybe India just turned down the number of cycles on the PCR test and magically the epidemic went away. The WHO advised the labs to be more careful to avoid false positives, ironically on the same day that Biden took office.

    Anyone curious about homeopathy and Covid19 here is a discussion by Dr Andre Saine.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqkTz04A0Uo

    • @ Roger

      you never learn do you?

      your ignorance on the subject of PCR testing has been exposed on this forum many times before – don’t you get tired of trotting out the same old tosh about “false positives” when it has endlessly been explained to you that they are nothing of the kind? You really do have serious comprehension issues don’t you?

      And you have still learned nothing at all about getting your information from reliable sources. You will believe absolutely any old nonsense from any old source credulously with not a modicum of critical thinking anywhere to be seen.
      YOUTUBE as a source of credible information – are you serious? Youtube is a hive of misinformation, conspiracy theories and credulous pap. Anyone can post anything they like on there. Even Flat-Earthers and Creationists!

      But of course you Roger, credulous believer of everything you see and hear on the internet, are willing to take it all as the gospel truth just because…….

      Why should anyone pay any attention to Andre Saine – who by the way is NOT a doctor of any stripe? He is misrepresenting himself.
      He is instead a triple quack. He is a chiropractor, a naturopath and a homeopath. That means he is a hive of health misinformation in three different quackeries. He has three times the normal alt-med propensity to mislead and harm people.

      I could not be bothered to listen to a homeopath/ND/DC blather on with his nonsense – the title of the video was disturbing enough. Anyone who is irresponsible enough to claim to treat pneumonia with homeopathy should not be allowed anywhere near a live patient and ought to be locked up. This is negligent homicide!
      A patient with pneumonia needs to see a real doctor and receive proper medical treatment.
      Having said that I would be surprised if this individual would recognize a case of pneumonia if he stumbled across one in the street – I very much doubt he could differentiate pneumonia from a hangnail.

      You have the most remarkable quality Roger – you have the ability always to get absolutely everything completely wrong all of the time. I don’t believe I have ever seen you make a sensible or true statement on this forum once.
      Instead you always manage to misunderstand and misinterpret absolutely everything and believe in the most rank and utter nonsense imaginable. You must be a Nigerian Prince’s delight and I can only imagine what a collection of inter-state bridges you must have accumulated by now. How often has Microsoft fixed your computer for you already? Isn’t it nice of them to take such an interest in you personally?

      As for youtube videos there was a good one about a black hole at the centre of the earth you might like, or the one about Covid coming here on meteorites – and there’s an especially good one about how the earth is being run by reptiles from outer space disguised as politicians. You shouldn’t miss that one. My favourite is the one about humans and dinosaurs co-existing just like in the Flintstones – you see how prescient cartoons can be?

      Perhaps in time evolution will sort this out. Natural selection will ultimately make it unsustainable for those relying solely on homeopathy for the treatment of serious diseases and this will also have a beneficial effect on the average level of rational thinking in the population at large as well.

      Just think – no more loonies claiming that sugar cubes or pure water can cure dangerous diseases!

      • I cant trust what Kary Mullis, the Nobel laureate and inventor, said about the PCR test? So I should assume you and the So-called Skeptics have some deeper knowledge? I dont think so.

        • I cant trust what Kary Mullis, the Nobel laureate and inventor, said about the PCR test?

          You might be able to rely on what Kary Mullis actually said, but you cannot rely on what the unintelligentsia and the sociopaths pretend that he said:
          https://fullfact.org/online/pcr-test-mullis/

        • @Roger

          Kary Mullis, the Nobel laureate and inventor …

          It is interesting to note that proponents of quackery such as you have a high regard for scientific credentials and titles of those you think support your beliefs(*) – yet at the same time you dismiss out of hand whatever is said by the 99.99% of other scientists with equally impressive credentials and titles.

          I am sorry to inform you that science and scientific knowledge is not a party buffet, where you can pick and choose only the titbits and morsels that you fancy, and leave all the rest for the trash can.
          If you set store by scientific credentials and titles, you must also accept the principle of scientific consensus, which is constituted by the totality of insights and opinions of people with credentials in the applicable scientific areas. And the scientific consensus in this case is that PCR testing is highly specific and reliable indeed.

          So-called Skeptics have some deeper knowledge? I dont think so.

          Interestingly, it is believers in quackery who implicitly claim to have some kind of deeper knowledge. Literally everyone who has openly criticised homeopathy has been told by aforementioned believers that “They know nothing about homeopathy”. And for some reason or other, those believers and practitioners consistently fail to explain where those critics go wrong, and what actual knowledge they are lacking in. So believers in homeopathy (or any other type of SCAM) must have special, deeper knowledge – knowledge that is only imparted upon those who truly start believing in the type of SCAM at hand …

          *: In this case even erroneously so, see Steve Tonkin’s reply.

        • So what you think Kary Mullis said then, Roger? Please tell us. And explain what you think it means for PCR COVID testing. Then we’ll explain to you why you’re wrong and demonstrate once again that you’re a fool.

          A fool, Roger, is someone who refuses to learn. Who displays wilful ignorance. And you’re doing that every time you post here. Wrong about absolutely everything. I’d say it was quite an impressive performance if it wasn’t for you being a homeopath when it just makes it par for the course.

        • @ Roger

          It is well known that we can rely upon you to be completely wrong about absolutely everything Roger can’t we?

          YOU SEE THE PROBLEM IS THAT KARY MULLIS NEVER IN FACT SAID THE QUOTE THAT YOU KEEP ATTRIBUTING TO HIM!
          And the people who did say the things that likely inspired the quote did not mean what you think it means.

          SO THE RELIABILITY OF PCR TESTING HAS IN NO WAY BEEN UNDERMINED BY YOUR IMAGINARY QUOTE.

          Who would have thought it – Roger spouting absolute canine testicles once again!!!

          Please see here:
          https://fullfact.org/online/pcr-test-mullis/

          https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-pcr-idUSKBN24420X

          what is known is your extremely poor comprehension abilities, your appalling lack of rational thinking and your complete absence of critical thinking skills – along with your extreme gullibility and tendency to believe anything and everything that your read or hear from very unreliable sources such as Fox News and Youtube.

          Don’t you EVER think to fact check anything before you spout absolute rubbish on the internet?
          You have been promulgating this fake Kary Mullis quote for ages but it never once occurred to you to check if it was true – instead you credulously and gullibly believe any old cobblers that your hear that confirms your biased views.
          And I imagine you likewise dismiss any information that would contradict your religiously held false beliefs – because you arrogantly just “KNOW” you are right!

          You need to try to be more skeptical about what your see and hear. Question where this nonsense you acquire comes from. Stop looking at Fox News and Youtube and find a reliable neutral news source. And before you try spreading stuff all over the place try engaging your brain before touching keyboard – check to see if it is true!
          People lie about all sorts of things for all sorts of reasons and there is a high percentage of misinformation on the internet – you seem to be more gullible than the average 2 year old.

          But you will believe ANYTHING as long as it confirms your world view – that is called confirmation bias and it is a really dumb approach to things. Wise up man! Have you no shame?

  • As previously mentioned in this Forum (2016 and 2018) and as is apparent from his listed qualifications, André Saine is not a medical Doctor.

    And, Roger, please may I make a plea (with reference to your last sentence above) for grammatical sentences?

    • @ Roger

      PS the video mentions treatment with “Genuine Homeopathy” – but I have to ask does it really make any difference if the patient is treated with “Fake Homeopathy?”
      How could anyone tell the difference?

      • does it really make any difference if the patient is treated with “Fake Homeopathy?”
        How could anyone tell the difference?

        I’ve been wondering about that too – and I sometimes have the suspicion that manufacturers of homeopathic products skip the messing around with mother tinctures, diluting and shaking altogether, and simply sell unprocessed sugar crumbs as ‘homeopathic medicine’.
        And oh, some 10 years ago, a Dutch consumer TV program known for its investigative journalism wanted to trace oscillococcinum back to its origins – only to be stonewalled at the gates of Boiron’s factory. No, they could not enter the premises (let alone film inside), no, they could not speak to anyone except the press manager, and no, they could not make an appointment with anyone for anything. All because of ‘trade secrets’, ostensibly. Very suspicious, if you ask me …

      • Certainly no homeopath and no laboratory anywhere, would be able to tell bottles of Nat Mur 30C and Rhus Tox 30C pills apart, with the labels off. Nanoparticle theories notwithstanding.

  • Always fun to see another example of the sheer silliness of homeopathy and its deluded believers

    The key to homeopathy is individualised therapy until it’s a bit inconvenient and/or can be monetised a different way. Quick everyone, take your Ars Alb!

  • “Large areas of India have reached herd immunity.” – is there good evidence for that?

    From worldometers.info, India’s total case rate is 7886 cases/million. That’s only 0.8% of the population. Even if the true infection rate is ten times that, that still seems unlikely to be enough to provide herd immunity in “large areas of India”.

  • The Indian authorities should carry on with what they are doing. They should rely on their own expertise and not listen to western so called experts as whatever they are doing is working .
    There was John Travis pontificating on here only a few weeks ago about how the Indian authorities were harming their people with their covid policy.
    He won’t see any irony.

    • @ Dendra

      “They should rely on their own expertise and not listen to western so called experts as whatever they are doing is working .
      There was John Travis pontificating on here only a few weeks ago about how the Indian authorities were harming their people with their covid policy.
      He won’t see any irony.”

      Because there is no irony to see.
      Only a deluded fool would believe that the thoroughly debunked worthless pseudoscience that is homeopathy is having the slightest effect at all upon the pandemic in India.
      Instead, as per the Tines article quoted before, there are MANY other factors particular to India’s demographics that are responsible for the reduction in case numbers.
      Homeopaths don’t have any “expertise” only a vastly over-inflated belief in their magical powers and a profound ignorance on all matters of health.

      Correlation is not causation.
      There is zero plausibility in the idea that homeopathy should have any effect on anything except the bank balance of the homeopath.
      You have still failed to learn anything about the logical fallacies – motivated reasoning, prior beliefs, cherry picking data, confirmation bias, ignoring contradictory information, proof by assertion, post hoc fallacy, magical thinking and no doubt others. You will never break free of your false beliefs unless you learn to counter these harmful effects – but sadly I fear you are too full of your own importance to take any note.

      That is the big difference between a “belief system” such as homeopathy and a science.

      • I know the title of this blog post is ‘Has homeopathy caused the dramatic decline of Covid 18 cases in India’. However, my comment didnt say that it did. All I said was that the Indian authorities should carry on with what they are doing. There are many different factors involved. This situation should be reviewed by scientists worldwide.
        You just jump in without thinking.

        • @ Dendra

          wrong again – as usual!

          you said “They should rely on their own expertise and not listen to western so called experts as whatever they are doing is working .”

          In fact the evidence would seem to indicate that India’s success is likely to be IN SPITE of what they are doing rather than BECAUSE of what they are doing.

          Despite having the second worst infection rate in the world after the US, India has a shambolic record on testing but is already abandoning any efforts at containing the virus, with politicians holding super-spreader events and masks and other protective measures being abandoned.
          Vaccine uptake and promotion is pathetically low. True levels of infection are suspected to be way higher than official figures and according to the Times – ” around 80 per cent of Indians die at home and several states have been accused of covering up Covid-19 death rates or refusing to test dead bodies to save face.”

          A younger demographic and quite possible a less lethal strain of the virus in Asia are all thought to have contributed to India’s relatively lucky escape – so far.
          So “what they have done” is to mount a shambolic, disorganized, incompetent, idiosyncratic, unscientific and haphazard failure of an attempt to deal with the pandemic and their dishonest and criminal promotion of pseudoscientific AYUSH treatments which have been clearly demonstrated to be worse than useless has just made a disastrous situation worse.

          That Modi and his cronies have managed to escape without the deaths of many more Indian citizens on their hands is purely down to good fortune and has nothing whatsoever to do with anything that they have done right. But of course you will be unable to see this as your blind faith in magic water and confirmation bias will prevent you from ever seeing anything that could interfere with your “belief system.”

          This comes over clearly in statements that you make such as “Fortunately for them they will not listen to ‘experts’ like you.” No, homeopaths and their ilk “never listen” to anyone else – because they already “just know” it all already and for them it is Holy Writ and immune to any and all evidence. Nothing can change their minds – ever.

          • @John Travis – Absolutely true. But there is no mention in India that Homeopathy/Ayurveda has helped in controlling the pandemic. It could be that our immunity is better bcoz our body is exposed to so much infection through food, pollution right from childhood. And, unlike western countries, we did not do much testing.

          • @ Pamela

            I think you are absolutely right. There is indeed a good argument that the greater exposure that many in India will have had to other infections previously will have to a certain extent “primed” their immune systems and there could well be a certain amount of latent immunity or at least better response than in say Europeans who will have had far fewer such previous immune reactions.

            And yes to the testing too. Some estimates put the possible rate of immunity in densely populated areas of cities such as Mumbai and Delhi at up to 50% but in rural areas it could be as low as 6% – but these are just educated estimates because of the low testing rates.
            The other big thing is the relative youth of the population – making it far more likely that even those who do get infected will escape serious complications. But there is also some evidence that the Asian strains of Covid were less virulent, and that the earlier lockdown in India was relatively successful too.

            But India looks to be making impressive inroads in the area of manufacturing vaccines, especially in terms of supply to poorer countries, an area where richer Western countries have not exactly displayed a great spirit of generosity thus far.
            The sad thing is that the current lull may have affected their own vaccine uptake negatively.

    • @Dendra

      They should rely on their own expertise

      If that ‘expertise’ leads to promoting toxic quackery (a.k.a. ayurveda) and shaken-water placebos (a.k.a. homeopathy) as official healthcare, then that is an unforgivable crime against their own people.

      When you look at public health and life expectancy in different countries over the past hundred years, the pattern is quite clear: both metrics see a a huge surge wherever western medicine is introduced, but stay low in places where countries rely on traditional medicine.

      Also please note that those who promote these long-disproven modalities are the same people who believe that the excrements of cows are not waste products or simply fertilizer, but are instead beneficial for people’s health. They literally promote bullshit as a medicine.

      • Maybe the Indian authorities should stop doing what they are doing and follow the UK approach to Covid then? You put them right on this.
        I bet you dont. No such letter will be sent.

        • @Dendra

          Maybe the Indian authorities should stop doing what they are doing and follow the UK approach to Covid then?

          No, because the situation in India differs significantly from the UK situation. For starters, the population has a completely different age distribution, with far fewer elderly relative to young people. Also, Indian society has far more people in menial jobs that British society, with far less technological infrastructure to support work from within a lockdown situation etcetera.

          However, in a more general sense, the Indian government should follow the western approach in terms of evidence-based or at least plausible treatments and medical policies – adapted to local resources and circumstances of course.
          They should not waste precious resources on promoting and supporting treatments that are pure placebo at best, and often even actively harmful.

          • Fortunately for them they will not listen to ‘experts’ like you.

          • @Dendra

            Fortunately for them they will not listen to ‘experts’ like you.

            Nothing new there, alternative practitioners and their adherents never listen to experts. In my experience, they tend to stick to their fairy tale ‘medicine’, more often than not with a hefty dose of arrogance. Which is understandable, because they have invested so much in this belief system that it has become integral part of their identity, so they must be right.

            However, the AYUSH people appear to realize that their ‘medicine’ would not survive rational scrutiny, so they try to prohibit non-believers from researching and criticising their beliefs: https://www.nationalheraldindia.com/national/ayush-ministry-upsets-scientists-with-new-advisory-barring-non-ayush-scientists-from-research-on-ayush-drugs

            This alone clearly shows that ayurveda etcetera is not a system of medicine, but a state religion, a cultural phenomenon reeking of nationalism – much like TCM in China.

  • Yes India, China, Russia and Brazil will not listen to ‘experts’ like you.
    What sort of testing they do is entirely up to them.
    They all have very good historic reasons to trust their own people first and use what they can from both western medicine and from their own traditions.
    Tough if people like you dont like it.

    • Ah yes, the “famous” indigenous medicinal traditions of Brazil and Russia.

      Traditional Brazilian Medicine (TBM), collected and written by Jair Bolsonaro

      And in Russia the state television shows the healing dances of the great shaman Vladimir every day. That’s why covid infections are so low.

    • @ Dendra

      what a typically tone deaf an ignorant response.

      So you are defending the totally chaotic and irresponsible crap-show that has been Bolsonaro’s non-response to the pandemic in Brazil?
      The Response in Russia has not been much better,

      “What sort of testing they do is entirely up to them.” – perhaps, but that doesn’t put it beyond criticism by any other intelligent or informed persons. That they are serving their citizens very badly and killing them by the tens of thousands happens to bothers some of us with a sense of humanity and concern for our fellow men.

      We may not have any influence or any authority, but I believe that there is still free speech and right thinking people have over the years felt it their moral duty to criticize the moral outrages and culpability of incompetent, criminal and immoral regimes in other parts of the world where those in power look after themselves but badly fail their own people.

      Unsurprisingly you evidently care not a jot for the plight of your fellow men, but rather defend the rights of the despots who govern them. The Bolsonaros, the Modis and the Putins. The first two are Trump wannabees.

      “They all have very good historic reasons to trust their own people.”
      Surely you are joking Mr Dendra?
      What historical reasons do the Russians have to trust Putin or Stalin or any of the others of the Soviet era? Or of any era before that? Do you know ANY Russian/Soviet history?

      What historical reasons do the Chinese have to trust the Chinese Communist party or Chairman Mao?
      Do you actually know the least little thing about world history?
      Have you not heard about the Uighurs and the current GENOCIDE of which China stands accused?
      Surely even you must have heard of a place called Hong Kong or the way China treats Tibet?
      China has an appalling record on human rights and the way it treats its own citizens.
      But I guess all that’s just fine by Dendra”!

      What historical reasons do the Brazilians have for trusting a long line of corrupt and incompetent politicians?

      Do you ever actually THINK before you haphazardly thump your keyboard?

      “use what they can from both western medicine and from their own traditions.”
      What evidence do you have that “traditional medicine” actually has any actual validity? That it is anything beyond old wives’ tales? Yet you would have people go out and entrust their lives to it during a raging pandemic!

      Well at last you have revealed your true colours.
      Not only are you totally ignorant of world history, you are woefully ignorant of current affairs and what is happening in the world around you at this very moment.

      You have no concern for the welfare of your fellow human beings, but instead are perfectly happy for them to suffer and die at the hands of self-serving despotic politicians who have badly mismanaged their countries’ responses to the pandemic because that is their right and no-one outside should dare to criticize it.

      And instead of scientific medical treatment these regimes should be free to choose “traditional medicine” if they see fit because in the wisdom of the “all-seeing Dendra” these historically corrupt and badly mismanaged countries should put their faith in the “traditions” or in the ideologies (either communist or religious) that have repeatedly got them into bigger and bigger messes in the past?

      Dendra – calling you a halfwit would be a compliment. A village somewhere must be missing its idiot.

  • Like it or not John Travis these countries are on the up. They could all say a few things about the west. We all have to live with each other though.
    Thankfully delusional medical missionaries like youself can cause no harm in the 21st century.

    • @ Dendra

      I note you didn’t address any of the points I made in my last comment -you never have anything substantive to say do you?

      “These countries are on the up?” In what sense? Brazil – you have a strange sense of “up?” I doubt many Brazilians would agree that the current state of chaos and disarray represents any sense of “up.”

      And Russia – being led by an an despotic oligarch where there is a gross disparity is standards of living between the ruling party and the workers? Appalling human rights record, poor freedom of speech, restricted press, gross environmental damage, incursions on neighbouring states – Crimea, Ukraine etc and even the Baltic countries are nervous. Health care in Russia is a lottery.

      Meanwhile Modi is busily turning India into a religious state. There is severe poverty and gross disparity in healthcare. It is wracked with social, economic and environmental issues and endemic corruption. Its population will soon exceed that of China.

      You seem to have a strange fondness for despotic, incompetent and self-serving leaders of foreign countries – what is it about these Stalin wannabees that you find so attractive?
      Your comment about the West is irrelevant – nobody was suggesting the West is perfect. That is the typical attempt at misdirection used by alties. Imperfections in the West are no excuse for the gross derelictions of duty in the countries mentioned above, and they are no excuse for the Governments of India and Brazil pushing worthless treatments on their long-suffering populations.

      Why do you feel so strongly about defending the indefensible?

      Your last sentence is idiotic. I am not the one who is delusional – after all you are the one who believes in the healing properties of magic water and sugar cubes and who is insisting that folk remedies such as Ayurveda are effective when there is zero evidence for any of your irrational and unhinged beliefs. I think you need to look closer to home.

      And I am not a medical missionary – you do talk a lot of absolute rot.
      How would i cause harm – you are the one promoting fake treatments!
      I am attempting to engage in a rational debate. But in your case it is what Edzard calls playing chess with a pigeon. You are incapable of either rational thought or of debate.
      You make no effort at substantive statements or logical arguments. You just make stupid vague assertions with nothing to back them up. You seem to be totally unaware of what is happening in the world around you.

      “We all have to live with each other though.”
      Are you not aware of the incendiary situation on the China/India border which has been flaring up for quite some time? The two most populous nations on the planet, both with nuclear capabilities? And right next door, with all kinds of issues, not least from Afghanistan and Modi, you have Pakistan with the world’s 6th largest army and another bunch of nuclear arms.

      You believe in make-believe medicines and I think you must inhabit some fantasy world where the Bolsonaros and the Modis all appear to you like some Fairy Godmothers and they will all live happily ever after in Putinland.
      It’s time to go back on the meds.

  • Be true to yourself John Travis and boycott any goods from China. You might find that quite a challenge but considering your comments you must be doing this?Even my Colegate toothpaste is made in China so good luck.
    Please ensure that no medicines you use are made in India and no garments either. Dont use any petroleum products without checking either as Russia supplies the UK with oil. Make sure those coffee shops you hopefully can visit soon dont use Brazilian Coffee.
    Dont invest or hold any pension funds investing in these markets or UK companies doing business with any of these countries that you so oppose.

    • @ Dendra

      why don’t you grow up?

      • Looks like the pigeon in the room left the chess table when it got to checkmate.

        • @ Dendra

          like all narcissists you overestimate your abilities.

          however it is pointless attempting to debate with you since you never even attempt to respond to any arguments that are put forward. you never quote any legitimate sources and you simply change the subject, make irrelevant assertions that are not backed by logic, reason or data and when these are refuted you fail to attempt to defend them.
          You never add anything of any value to any comment you make – you just make silly pointless and untrue assertions. No topic is ever improved or enhanced by your contributions – that is quite a record.
          You are simply a troll.

          that is the allusion to playing chess with a pigeon.. it has a bird brain, it doesn’t know the rules of the game, it fails to play by the rules, it is bad mannered, it scatters the chess pieces all over the board, squawks loudly instead of making intelligent conversation, is very poor company, is very annoying because it keeps flapping its wings instead of behaving in a civilized fashion, and then ultimately it shits all over the board before flying off claiming it has won. But of course being a pigeon it is far too stupid to realize that all it has achieved is to have made a fool of itself.

          And of course that is why nobody likes pigeons – because they serve no useful purpose and they shit all over the place.

          You keep setting them up and I’ll keep knocking them down.

          • Look in the mirror John Travis and you may see a manifestation of the insults that you routinely serve up for others from your first post.

          • @ Dendra

            you don’t even have the inventiveness to make up your own invective All you can do is manage is the school yard taunt of “so are you!”

            you truly are an entirely empty vessel aren’t you Dendra? Completely devoid of any substance or depth – all sound and fury, signifying nothing. you are as fatuous and devoid of meaning and purpose as the shoddy, totally ineffective and adulterated fictitious “remedies” you are so fond of hawking as “cures” in spite of the overwhelming evidence of their utter worthlessness.

            You have revealed your moral bankruptcy as a proud supporter of immoral foreign despots who are mismanaging their own countries’ response to the pandemic and displayed a total lack of any humanitarian concern for your fellow man.
            Yet you want to add to these countries’ suffering by adding fake remedies in place of real medicine which would lead to even further incalculable sickness and death. All because of your simplistic “belief” in magic water.

            Truly you are proposing genocide on a vast scale.

            And you are the one suggesting that I should look in a mirror?

          • “You are simply a troll”.

            Indeed. And that class of being thrives on eliciting responses. Why feed them what they thrive on?

          • I see a certain relatively reasonable tone in Edzard’s new book towards some CAM treatments. This tone seems incompatible with what i see as just blanket indiscriminate abuse of all CAM and its users from John Travis irrespective of evidence.

          • John,

            And of course that is why nobody likes pigeons – because they serve no useful purpose and they shit all over the place.

            I think you are being unfair to pigeons. I have never heard a pigeon squawk, they are actually fairly intelligent birds (though not as intelligent as crows) and they have their own following in the form of pigeon fanciers and racers. They were also a vital means of communication before modern telecomms systems were developed.

          • @ Dr Julian Money-Kyrle

            perhaps, but there are many city dwellers and those in municipal and transportation and telecommunication maintenance who would violently disagree with you. They cost millions every year in cleaning away their droppings, and they damage installations as well as being blamed for being a public nuisance.

            They are called “the flying rat”

            Many installations are festooned with anti-pigeon “spikes” in attempts to dissuade their perching. Pedestrians complain about cleaning bills from their droppings as do motorists from damaged paintwork and many arguments (sometimes violent) break out between those who feed them and those who strenuously object.

            “Nest droppings and feathers block gutters and rainwater pipes causing water damage to buildings. Their droppings can lead to hazards on pavements, especially for the elderly. Pigeons are capable of lifting loose roof coverings, tiles and battens to gain entry into the roof voids. This can significantly damage the structure by allowing water penetration, providing the ideal environmental conditions for the growth and proliferation of wood rotting fungi. Wood boring insects are attracted to this damp, rotting environment, leading to substantial further decay (Singh 1995).

            “Pigeon nesting materials, feathers and faeces can block parapet gutters and hopper heads, allowing water penetration into the building fabric and providing the ideal environmental conditions for the growth and development of decay organisms (Singh 1994a, & Singh 1999).”

            “Ladders and fire escapes coated in pigeon droppings become slippery and unsafe to use particularly in wet conditions. Startled pigeons may take flight suddenly and cause a hazard to road traffic.”
            “……detritus and debris under a nest provides an ideal environment for disease. This encourages fungi and bacteria to grow and proliferate.” ibid.

            “They are also a source of allergens, which can cause respiratory ailments like pigeon fancier’s lung, aspergillosis and allergic skin reaction. There is potential for these illnesses to be spread to people through contact with pigeon droppings, dandruff and feathers, pigeon parasites, or where dead infected pigeons get into food or water sources.”ibid

            In addition they breed incredibly quickly and populations proliferate to very large numbers.

            I rather think in the internet age the usefulness of carrier pigeons may have been superseded – but perhaps that is even more reason why the metaphor is apt for Dendra. In the age of CRISPR and mRNA vaccines he is flogging a 200 year old notion of magical thinking that hasn’t changed in all that time.

            Pre-scientific, outdated, superseded, and useless – if the cap fits…………

          • Fine. Carry on with your rhetoric John Travis.

          • @Dendra

            I don’t recall asking for your permission – I shall continue to comment according to my own taste.

  • It is extremely interesting to look at your past articles and the science that you refer to, to run down every other medical system in use around the world.

    May be, using the same science (avoiding ifs and buts) you could explain the deaths due to Covid (per million of population) in UK (1767), Italy (1581), USA (1535) representing the best in scientific medicine by comparing similar figures from India (113) and Cuba (26) where, you are aware, the government, started distributing homeopathic medicines as preventive as also ayurvedic mixtures.

    The data is clear. Are you?

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

    • you might benefit from a crash course in critical thinking.

      • This is very superficial report.

        I was foxed to see the down trend in all India numbers when I expected these to go up consequent to cold weather setting into North India.

        I ran an analysis with data as of November 19, 2020 for Delhi and the next state: UP.

        “As of November 19, 2020, Delhi reported infected cases and deaths: 16606 and 262 per 10L (m) respectively. The population of Delhi, is estimated at 30.29 m. ICU beds in hospitals, are in short supply considering the new spike in cases. 7546 new cases on date, in Delhi alone of the 46182 All India cases.
        There is a lot of focus on the situation from the Central and the local government on Delhi situation. Delhi has fair number of good hospitals. Sufficient for its population; time will tell.

        {To run comparison, assuming Delhi figures closer to reality, considering state and central government monitoring, I converted all data to per million (m) of population}.

        Move on to Lucknow, the infected cases and deaths rise to 17151 and 258 per m respectively, matching Delhi numbers. Kanpur is worse off: Only 9411 infected cases and 244 deaths per m. One of the figure should be incorrect. Because deaths should not be wrong, the infections are not being reported correctly.
        Prayagraj shows 8400 infected cases and 245 deaths per m. Very similar to Lucknow and Delhi.
        Varanasi recorded 11493 and 217 cases of infection and dead per m respectively. This is almost similar data as for Kanpur.
        Repeat for Meerut: 9786 cases of infection and 220 dead per m.

        For UP as a state the numbers are: 2181 infections and 31 dead. Infections could be under reported: deaths?

        The data pointed to a clear picture: the cities showed very similar numbers for infections and deaths. When it came to villages : rural areas, the difference in numbers was starkly different. When cross checked with people in touch with villagers, (Lucknow, Kanpur, Meerut, Varanasi and additional villages around Indore, Bhopal, Gwalior) the situation was found to be real. Few infections and deaths missing. The TV visuals of people traveling with no distancing, no masks were common. (In villages people live even closer compared to cities. Small houses with common walls.)

        Population, generally not in touch with scientific medicine, seemed to be doing great. People with easy access to medical support were dying in statistically significant numbers.

        Exactly similar sequence is playing out in UK/USA: more access to medical support= more fatalities.

        • This is very superficial report.

          Well of course it is; it’s a newspaper article, not a paper in a reputable refereed scientific journal. Despite that, you have presented neither:
          * Evidence from any reputable refereed scientific journal that any assertions/suggestions it makes are false.
          * Citations from any reputable refereed scientific journal to support the claims that you make.

          In fact your entire screed has an aura of ignoring all plausible hypotheses (in this instance, systematic under-reporting of Covid deaths) and Maier’s law compliance (Facts that do not conform to the theory must be disposed of) about it

          • Steve Tonkin

            “Well of course it is; it’s a newspaper article, not a paper in a reputable refereed scientific journal. Despite that, you have presented neither”

            This newspaper report was good when you linked it. Now it is just a report?

            “…in this instance, systematic under-reporting of Covid deaths) and Maier’s law compliance”

            And where did this “under reporting” come from? Your imagination?

            May be you can explain the figures of the Americans, Italians and the British dying at such rapid pace with billions of $ healthcare service not being able to do nothing about it.

            This you should be able to scientifically prove?

          • I KRISHNA, you wrote:

            “Well of course it is; it’s a newspaper article, not a paper in a reputable refereed scientific journal. Despite that, you have presented neither”

            This newspaper report was good when you linked it. Now it is just a report?

            You do like taking things out of context, don’t you? What I wrote was in response to your criticism of it being superficial. You have offered no evidence that it is not correct (and have tried to dodge that particular challenge).

            And where did this “under reporting” come from? Your imagination?

            Oh, please don’t be so disingenuous! The evidence is all around you; please stop pretending that it isn’t:
            https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31857-2/fulltext
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7508490/
            https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-54985981
            https://science.thewire.in/health/india-mccd-comorbidities-covid-19-deaths-undercounting/

            May be you can explain the figures of the Americans, Italians and the British dying at such rapid pace with billions of $ healthcare service not being able to do nothing about it.

            Please don’t keep disingenuously changing the subject. This thread is about homeopathy and Covid-19 in India. Nobody is denying that the US and UK in particular (I don’t know enough about Italy, and I bet you don’t either) have been pretty incompetent at preventing the rise of the epidemic for a number of reasons, but the notion that “The UK and USA have failed their citizens, therefore homeopathy works” is just plain idiotic.

            As you have been told many times before, I KRISHNA, problems with medicine validate pseudomedicines like homeopathy in exactly the same way that aircraft accidents validate magic carpets.

    • I KRISHNA, I think, respectfully, perhaps you have misunderstood the nature of Professor Ernst’s work.

      It is not, nor has it ever been, his purpose simply to “run down” any system of medicine. Professor Ernst’s appointment to a professorial Chair at Exeter University in 1993 (following a Professorship in Rehabilitative Medicine in Europe) was to INVESTIGATE various “alternative” and/or “complementary” modalities, in order to FIND OUT which of them, if any, works better than placebo.

      He and his team, as good scientists, followed where the evidence led.

      Other factors that come into play regarding Covid-19 infection rates in India have already been discussed in this Blog and I won’t re-visit them.

      I would personally be interested to know, I KRISHNA, since you apparently believe that Arsen Alb 30C works better than placebo (am I correct in thinking you believe this?), any mechanism by which you think it may work? As you know, there is no Arsen Alb present in a bottle of 30C Arsen Alb pills.

    • @ I KRISHNA

      “The data is clear. Are you?”

      Only if you are blind and been living in an underground bunker with no communications for the past 12 months.

      It is a massive assumption that homeopathy and Ayurveda are the cause of the difference in India and Cuba. What evidence do you have?
      How do you account for the massively lower rates in Taiwan and New Zealand which failed to use these miraculous drugs?

      Jumping to conclusions in this manner is evidence of very sloppy thinking and all manner of logical fallacies – I suggest you look up skepticism, critical thinking, jumping to conclusions, correlation is not causation, motivated reasoning, prior beliefs, confirmation bias, cherry picking, dismissing contradictory evidence, – well that will do for starters.

      And your little fantasy ignores the important fact that there is no credible a priori reason for thinking that pre-scientific belief systems such as homeopathy or ayurveda, which are pseudoscience would have any clinical effect in the first place. Your belief is based on magical thinking.

      That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

      Lastly I do not know why people keep quoting worldometer as a reliable source when there are very good reasons for believing that its figures are unreliable. If one wishes to be taken seriously i would suggest using another source.

  • “you might benefit from a crash course in critical thinking.”

    My teacher in critical thinking told me that the final result matters. The proof of the pudding is in eating!

    If UK, USA.. have over 10 times the death rate compared to India, what has the scientific medical system achieved by investing billions of $ in research and medical infrastructure? A small push and the edifice crashed?

    If you could scientifically justify such large difference in deaths, with your critical thinking, I would be keen to understand the science and the critical thinking from a new master!

    • My teacher in critical thinking told me that the final result matters.

      Then your teacher is a fool.

      Because it is not the ‘final result’ that matters, but knowing what CAUSED that ‘final result'(*).
      If homeopathy did not contribute in any way to the result (and it most certainly didn’t), then it is a waste of money and resources to promote and administer homeopathic nonsense to people.

      *: If you enjoyed a high school education, then your teachers in maths, physics etcetera must have told you the very same thing:
      “A correct answer is still 100% wrong if you can’t show me how you got that answer.”

      • “Because it is not the ‘final result’ that matters, but knowing what CAUSED that ‘final result'(*).”

        Repeatedly?

        https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20674839/

        This study was carried out by researchers from Finlay Institute (a WHO accredited facility for vaccine research & development.)

        https://www.bmj.com/content/345/bmj.e6184/rr/616928

        • @ I KRISHNA

          you are still not learning anything are you? this is simply an “appeal to authority.” Yet another logical fallacy.

          As long as you allow your thinking to be clouded by all this nonsense you are never going to be able to see the facts among all the dross.

          And what has vaccine research got to do with the rabid mess that is represented by “homeopathic nosodes?” There is ZERO plausibility a priori behind the notion of these irrational and dangerous nostrums pushed by homeopaths and there is equally ZERO reliable evidence that they have any real biological effect.

          AS per usual the only studies that allege to provide any “evidence” for these are poorly designed, badly conducted, implausible and inevitably do not demonstrate what they claim. But there are always willing and gullible believers such as yourself who will swallow the propaganda hook line and sinker because you WANT to believe in this fantasy belief system, and because you couldn’t tell a well conducted study from a hole in the ground.

          Just a few quick criticisms of the study you quote.
          – it was published in a low quality Homeopathy journal – not a high impact medical journal – I wonder why?
          – one has to question the quality of peer review given the many failings of the “study.”
          – there would appear to be many differences between the two populations being compared – this is hardly randomized and comparing like with like. They are even using two different time frames and using “projections for what might have happened in the other group.” What kind of science is this?
          – as there is no proper randomization or control and because of the projections and different time frame there are many other factors that could have influenced the results.
          – it also appears that many of the subjects in the homeopathy group also had shots of an approved and known to be effective medical vaccine. This would significantly skew the results in favour of the homeopathy group as it appears that none of the alleged “control” group received this vaccine.

          As always homeopaths are willing to torture the evidence in any way possible to get the answers they want, and their fan base as ever will believe whatever tosh they serve up. Skepticism and critical thinking are never anywhere to be found.

          Just take the inherent lunacy of Oscillococcinum a supposed remedy and preventative for flu. It is based upon the misidentification of an artefact found in a Muscovy duck that was mistakenly thought to be a bacterium that caused the flu. Since influenza is caused by a virus this comedy of errors could only go downhill from there.
          This totally ineffective “remedy” is allegedly diluted to 200C potency – i.e. 10 to the power of 200. This is the number 1 followed by 400 zeroes! A googol is only 1 followed by 100 zeroes.

          There are estimated to be only 10 to the power of 84 atoms in the entire observable universe.
          Yet homeopathic lunacy is such that they claim to be able to dilute this imaginary duck “bacterium” to the level of 10 to the power of 200! How exactly?

          Homeopaths inhabit a world that makes Alice’s Wonderland look positively sane, staid and boringly normal, and where all the normal rules apply. In their world unicorns are ten a penny, and counting angels on the head of a pin is a regular after dinner past-time.

          Homeopathy is and always has been pure and utter fantasy.

        • I KRISHNA, you wrote:

          This study was carried out by researchers from Finlay Institute (a WHO accredited facility for vaccine research & development.)

          Well that’s a double “Appeal to Authority” fallacy, isn’t it.

          That leptospirosis tosh is a zombie argument (keeps getting slain, yet refuses to die). It was been comprehensively debunked long ago. You have been told this several times (eg in Quora), so it is disingenuous of you to pretend otherwise and to keep bringing up.

          https://apgaylard.wordpress.com/2010/08/08/much-ado-about-nothing/
          http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2009/01/hasta-el-absurdo-siempre.html
          http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/11/30/homeopathy-in-cuba/

    • @ I KRISHNA

      your thinking is totally simplistic!

      “If UK, USA.. have over 10 times the death rate compared to India, what has the scientific medical system achieved by investing billions of $ in research and medical infrastructure? A small push and the edifice crashed?

      If you could scientifically justify such large difference in deaths, with your critical thinking, I would be keen to understand the science and the critical thinking from a new master!”

      I do not believe that you have the slightest understanding of critical thinking or of science at all from the way in which you make such simplistic comparisons and jump to immediately erroneous conclusions. There are far more variables than you are considering and you are using motivated reasoning to prove your point – not looking at data dispassionately to determine what it shows.
      If your “teacher in critical thinking” really taught you only to look at the end result either he was a total idiot or you fell asleep in class.

      Definition: “Critical thinking is the intellectually disciplined process of actively and skillfully conceptualizing, applying, analyzing, synthesizing, and/or evaluating information gathered from, or generated by, observation, experience, reflection, reasoning, or communication, as a guide to belief and action. In its exemplary form, it is based on universal intellectual values that transcend subject matter divisions: clarity, accuracy, precision, consistency, relevance, sound evidence, good reasons, depth, breadth, and fairness.”

      You didn’t get past the first line!

      There have been many suggestions as to why India’s death rate is lower than might be expected in spite of India having the second highest level of Covid infections in the world after the US.

      – most Indians still die at home and deaths are recorded incorrectly as something else (especially as testing is so poor)

      – stigma – even where Covid might be suspected clinically the death would be reported as another cause

      – levels of testing are abysmally low so the actual number of cases is undoubtedly much higher

      – India has a predominantly young population relative to the ageing populations of the US and Europe – hence lower deaths

      – In spite of the densely populated cities much of the population is still rural and contrary to what you say epidemiologists in fact believe that rural dwellers are in fact LESS likely to become infected than city dwellers especially those in city slums.

      – There is good reason to believe that because of the many co-existent infections that the native population of India is exposed to that their immune systems may in fact already be primed for pandemics such as this in a way that Westerners are not and that this infers an inherent advantage.

      – There is evidence that the initial lockdown in India was successful in damping down the initial phase on the pandemic

      – it has been postulated that in some densely packed city areas that there may be clusters of people with up to 50% immunity which would slow down contagion appreciably. Of course so much is speculation because of the slow and chaotic roll out of testing.

      – Western countries may well have had good scientific infrastructure – what they did not have was good disaster preparedness. That has got nothing to do with science. It has got to do with human nature, politicians being blind, stupid, lazy and preferring to spend public money on their pet projects, and other factors. In addition other mistakes were made – sending infectious patients from hospital to nursing homes, being too slow to lockdown, mixed messages about masks, members of the public failing to follow the rules, idiots denying the bleeding obvious and so on.
      And of course the hopeless lack of enough PPE.

      – I could go on and on. But you failed to consider any of these issues in your overly simplistic notion.
      Oh and by the way – the usage of homeopathy and or ayurveda in India didn’t help anyone and may have caused harm if it was used in place of a real therapy that could have helped.
      These “treatments” are pre-scientific nonsense that are ineffective and have no place in present day medicine.

      So your premises are incorrect and your conclusions are wrong – and you have exhibited no critical thinking at all.
      Nul points.
      And AYUSH is make believe.

      • john travis

        You have only used many assumptions to write your story.

        Maybe you can explain the death rate of about 2.93% of infected cases. This is about the highest that there is!

        • @ I KRISHNA

          what is the 2.93% supposed to refer to?

          once again your mind is so simplistic. there is no doubt that most countries could have handled the pandemic better. Certainly the UK and the US could and should have avoided many of the deaths that have occurred.
          We are still in the middle of this pandemic in case you hadn’t noticed and much of the evidence isn’t yet available.

          But in your binary mind these differences come down to the use of AYUSH vs scientific medicine – which is simplistic beyond belief. This is a false equation. You are asking the wrong question – and you are most certainly getting the WRONG ANSWER!
          I have explained to you before that all of these issues are multi-factorial and most are not related to the issue of science or medicine. The issues of imposition of lockdown, mask-wearing, adherence to protocols, adequacy of testing, crowded public transport etc were all political decisions and nothing to do with how good the medical services were.

          In the US they had an anti-science President who made mask wearing a political and partisan issue, who held super-spreader rallies, who did nothing to stop the spread of the pandemic, left the states to fend for themselves and the supply of PPE in many nations was a major issue.
          These are political and logistical issues – nothing to do with science or medicine.
          ANd they don’t prove that your AYUSH works either!

          There are also many reasons why the death rate is higher in certain Western countries. Older population – age is associated with much higher mortality. Higher rates of obesity which is also associated with Diabetes and high BP which also increase mortality.
          In many places health services were overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of very ill patients swamping hospitals and ICUs and the level of care suffered.
          This was a novel disease and it was not immediately appreciated that it could cause thrombotic events or that it affected other organs or that patients could become seriously hypoxic with little clinical evidence.
          It took time to elucidate these facts and develop better means of care and develop treatments.

          In many Western countries there were significant pockets of Covid deniers who called it a “hoax” and took to the streets in crowds protesting. Idiots held parties and raves – super-spreading events. That Western nations have morons who choose to believe conspiracy theories spread by social media and spread Covid through their ignorance is a failure of intelligence and social responsibility – not of science or medicine. I doubt that your AYUSH would have had much impact on them either – although acupuncture from a distance is a tempting thought: perhaps it does have a useful purpose after all!

          There were shortages of ventilators and other equipment and many other logistical difficulties.

          But rationally one has to ask the question. What is more likely? That a multitude of factors that we know apply to any such situation will have contributed to the statistics and will have accounted for the variations that we see between different populations – and not least the many different ways in which these figures have been counted, defined, quantified and translated. Or that a bunch of traditional remedies picked for no discernable reason other than random chance and with confirmation bias and applied in some unknown haphazard fashion instead miraculously made an enormous difference?

          There is no existing evidence base for AYUSH. There is no evidence that it is useful in the treatment of any disease. There is no logical or scientific reason to suppose that it would have any utility is preventing spread or in the treatment of a pandemic. Your beliefs are delusional. All you are doing is manipulating the existing statistics to confirm your prior beliefs. This is irrational behaviour. Fooling oneself is not particularly clever.

          You could just as easily argue that since cinemas have been closed since the early part of the pandemic that it is obviously deprivation of movies that is driving the pandemic and that the inevitable solution is compulsory mass attendance for all citizens at multiple showings of numerous double-features. Cure!

          Science is all about teasing out al the many factors that may be involved in any situation and allowing for the effect of each. It is about considering the inaccuracies of definitions, measurements, inherent and explicit bias, one’s own prior beliefs, and making allowances for all these factor and many more.
          But it is also about allowing for factors one may not even have considered, and that may creep unnoticed into the equation. It is about asking the questions and trying to eliminate and inaccuracies and biases. It is about arriving at the truth.

          And science also requires plausibility and measures of probability. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

          AYUSH is merely a combination of folk remedies (Ayurveda, Siddha and Unani) with yoga and Western alternative medicine (in the form of Naturopathy and Homeopathy – both thoroughly discredited.)
          There is no reliable evidence that any of these modalities is useful in the treatment of any disease and they are all pseudoscientific as regards forms of medicine. Yoga may have some utility as a form of exercise or meditation.

          Please show me any RCT in a premier peer reviewed journal of a well conducted trial that demonstrated that AYUSH is a reliable treatment for some disease or that it significantly outperforms placebo? The usual crap studies published in the Homeopathy rags do not count as they will publish anything.

          The Indian people deserve better from their government that to be palmed off with this nonsense as treatment for anything, least of all during a pandemic, especially when they have access to the very best of conventional science and medicine in their very own country already. But that alone is not going to be enough to end the pandemic.

          BTW just because you believe in something does not make it so. Facts require evidence and logic and rational thinking.

  • I KRISHNA, may I please respectfully ask you to answer my question further up this thread? What is your own belief about how 30C homeopathic pills might work?

    • “What is your own belief about how 30C homeopathic pills might work?”

      I have no clue. But this is not the first time. Should an opinion matter or an outcome?

      https://www.ecampnd.com/homeopathy/A_Chorus_of_Fifty_in_Harmony.pdf

      • I KRISHNA, thank you for taking the time to respond to my question. I understand that you have no clue how a 30C homeopathic remedy can exert any effect beyond placebo.

        With regard to the article you linked to, I don’t really think that something from a century ago is much help.

        As has been said before, if you hear hoofbeats outside and look out the window, it is safer to assume you’ll see a horse, than a zebra. And certainly safer to assume you will see a horse than a unicorn.

        When figures apparently suggest a powerful effect from a 30C homeopathic remedy, it is much safter to assume that there is something wrong with the figures, than to assume that the remedy produced the reported effects. To asume that homeopathy really produced the reported effects, is to assume the unicorn.

        • David B

          “When figures apparently suggest a powerful effect from a 30C homeopathic remedy, it is much safter to assume that there is something wrong with the figures, than to assume that the remedy produced the reported effects. To asume that homeopathy really produced the reported effects, is to assume the unicorn.”

          Why would YOU say so?

          The researchers at the Finlay Institute- all involved in research and development of conventional vaccine- published a report with 200 c medication.

          https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20674839/

          This study was carried out by researchers from Finlay Institute (a WHO accredited facility for conventional vaccine research & development.)

          https://www.bmj.com/content/345/bmj.e6184/rr/616928

          • Thank you for your response, I KRISHNA. The Cuba Leptospirosis trial has been referred to in this Blog in the past.

            It seems clear from the PubMed Abstract, that there was no control or randomisation.

            I KRISHNA, in view of your knowledge of the subject, what is your view of the incidence of Leptospirosis in Cuba now, a decade on?

            There is some interesting discussion in this Blog: https://apgaylard.wordpress.com/2010/08/28/editing-reality/

            It is better to conclude that the hoofbeats you hear are not those of a unicorn.

          • “David B

            “When figures apparently suggest a powerful effect from a 30C homeopathic remedy, it is much safter to assume that there is something wrong with the figures, than to assume that the remedy produced the reported effects. To asume that homeopathy really produced the reported effects, is to assume the unicorn.”

            Why would YOU say so?”

            Here are the reasons why I say that if figures show a strong result for 30C pills, it is safe to assume the figures are wrong:

            1) 30C pills contain none of the ‘remedy’ whether animal, vegetable, mineral or electromagnetic.

            2) No laboratory in the world, nor any homeopath, can tell the difference between bottles of different 30C ‘remedy’ pills with the labels off.

            3) There is no known mechanism by which 30C pills could exert effects on physiological organisms. Various theories have been suggested, but not demonstarted: Nanoparticles, Memory of Water, Spiritual Essence. None is plausible, and none has been demonstrated.

            In view of the entire implausibility that 30C pills could exert any effects, when figures suggest that they do, it is safer to doubt the figures than to believe them.

            If such figures were reliably replicated time after time in properly controlled experiements and trials, then much of science would have to be re-written. The mass of such evidence would have to be absolutely enormous, as the changes to scientific understanding would be cataclysmic. No such mass of evidence exists.

      • Fallacious post hoc ergo propter hoc “outcomes” are not evidence of anything other than human perfidy or gullibility.

      • @ I KRISHNA

        does the source of your information not ever trouble you?

        what exactly do you believe that this fact free rant in a homeopathy rag proves?

        it would appear that you are incapable of learning anything – you are immune to logic and facts.

        you are looking more and more like a troll.

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