‘HOMEOPATHY RESOURCE’ claim they are the online web site for accurate information on homeopathy, homeopaths and homeopathic organizations. On 18 June, they published an article entitled “Another Remarkable Demonstration of Homeopathy’s Effectiveness in Covid-19: ONLY 19 Deaths out of 35 million in Kerala, India”. Here it is in its full beauty:
The State of Kerela India has shown that homeopathy and grassroots health care works dramatically well in epidemic and pandemic situations.. The state, in spite of areas of great density, has reported only 19 deaths. This compares to the UK which has a population of 66 million people but a tragic 41,698 deaths.
The region’s Health Minister Shailaja Teacher has been called the “Coronavirus Slayer” after introducing homeopathy as a primary means of dealing with the epidemic. Kerala India has already come through two Nipah virus epidemics under her watch.
Tactics used by Shailaja included encouraging the use of homeopathy. In a recent media meeting, she talked about the need “to improve the immunity and resistance power of each individual not yet positive to Coronavirus, with the help of Homeopathic/ Ayurvedic medicines. That will help them resist the Coronavirus infection, help them to tide over the infection well, if at all they contract it…… everyone should take Homeopathic & Ayurvedic preventative treatments available.”
According to Dr E.S.Rajendran who practices in Kerala “The total number of people who received the homeopathic preventive medicine Ars alb 30 through Kerala government as on June 1st was 10 million. An equal number of people have also received the same through voluntary organisations. The remaining population is expected to receive the preventive medicine in another one month.” This distribution was carried out in each district with the help of resident associations and was achievable because there is a huge demand for homeopathy from the people.
_____________________________________
Do ‘HOMEOPATHY RESOURCE’ really think that this is ‘accurate information’?
Do they feel that it amounts to evidence that homeopathy prevents COVID-19 infections?
Do they believe that it is responsible to promote such a message?
If so, they are more deluded than their homeopathic remedies are diluted!
There is a plethora of factors that might have contributed to the low infection rate in Kerela. Here are some that spring into my mind (in descending order of probability):
- Social distancing measures might have been put in place at the right time.
- Hand-washing might have been better accepted than in the UK.
- Face-masks might have been more common.
- The government might have been less incompetent than the one in the UK.
- The pandemic might be arriving with some delay in Kerela (in the last 2 days the COVID cases have more than doubled in Kerela).
- The hot weather might have inhibited the spread of the infection.
- The Ayurvedic medicine mentioned by the health minister might have worked.
- There might be many more cases due to under-diagnosis and poor testing.
- The holy cows might have prevented infections.
- Homeopathy works dramatically well in epidemic and pandemic situations.
Call me a sceptic, but – whatever turns out to be true (and I sincerely hope that the case numbers stay low in Kerela) – I do not think that ‘HOMEOPATHY RESOURCE’ is providing accurate information with their recent post.
And call me a pessimist, but I fail to see any good evidence to assume that homeopathic remedies have any effect in treating or preventing viral infections. In fact,
HIGHLY DILUTE HOMEOPATHIC REMEDIES ARE PURE PLACEBOS!
96 Responses to “Another Remarkable Demonstration of Homeopathy’s Effectiveness in Covid-19: ONLY 19 Deaths out of 35 million in Kerala, India”
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Looking at what Wikipedia has on Covid-19 in Kerala – quite a lot, really – we seem to see a combination of rigorously applied conventional epidemic control measures:
1) An effective “Break the Chain” campaign involving well-delivered public education about careful handwashing, and hand-wash stations set up in all public places;
2) Strict quarantine measures, stronger than elsewhere;
3) Strong and effectively applied protocols governing arrivals, departures, and population movements.
There is nothing said about any homeopathic measures (due, no doubt some will say, to a conspiracy between Wikipedia and Big Pharma).
If anything, we are reminded of how effective the simplest and best-known approaches are, when it comes to “Don’t spread germs”.
Plus, of course, there is the question of how reliable the figures are, and how they were compiled.
Yes, a Guardian article described the Kerala approach.
Summed up, it was the WHO’s protocol of test, trace, isolate and support. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/14/the-coronavirus-slayer-how-keralas-rock-star-health-minister-helped-save-it-from-covid-19
This sounds a lot like Mongolia, Vietnam, Taiwan and South Korea, New Zealand ….
KK Shailaja, the minister, started to mobilize her people and resources relatively early and seems to have had the support of the rest of the state government.
No hint of Ayurvedic medicine in the article, just a smoothly functioning medical organization which had experience of an earlier disease outbreak (Nipah) and a leadership that was prepared to act quickly.
.
But u must see this also : https://www.nagpurtoday.in/maharashtra-could-soon-have-an-ayush-policy-for-covid-19/05221029
And India s break up ; Look for Maharashtra
https://www.bing.com/search?q=covid+19+bing+tracker&qs=HS&pq=covid&sk=HS2&sc=8-5&cvid=F69C4ECB6B3346AFBB4C3FD116CC1A7D&FORM=QBRE&sp=3
On June 13 Maharashtra has approved Homeopathy.
Makes better sense than Kerala Homeopathy
For all we know all the figures could be wrong. USA could be having only 100 fatalities , when they have reported 125,000.
The Lock down was all over India and many parts of the world .Its a strange world. People with lesser fatalities are clinging to more stringent measures . . . . .
Homeopathy is not said any where; not only on Wikepedia. Search for Covid in India . . .unlikely u ll find Homwopathy. Search for Homeopathy in Covid 19. U ll find some results.
Incidentally me just recovered from very high fever with chills and rigors, much nasal discharge, very very severe head ache, retrosternal pain, very bitter taste in mouth. Treated and cured with Homeopathy. The doc cam home at 10 pm to deliver the medicine as it was such an emergency
MAy or may not be Covid. even if it was, the doc said, “dont worry , we have the medicines in Homeopathy”
@ Santra,
Kyon phek raha hain ? If homeopathy could cure, how did Dr. Mulgaokar, a Homeopath die from Covid ?
Oh who is Dr. Mulgaokar ? . Did not see the news.
Cardiologists die of a Myocardial Infarction when there is no one to treat them.
May be this person Dr. Mulgaokar did not have some one to treat him.
Is he from India ? India allows only the SYSTEM called MODERN medicine to treat a Covid +ive patient. Probably he was Covid +ive and they took him to a government hospital , which apparently, is what is the law and the protocol in India. Apparently, in India, posiitve COVID-19 patients have no access to Homeopathy / Ayurveda and other systems of medicine.
In fact someone used the words, ‘U have no control over the situation’. They will just pack u and put u in a situation called quarantine, which was a 5 marks short note in the exams when we were students. Now every one uses the word without knowing its value (that it was a 5 mark question)
Any way the doc who treated me said they had the medicine. Me was very sick . Took his medicines and did nt ask questions. Got cured. Thats it . He treats my family regularly. Thats why we could call him at near mid night.
Dr. Mulgaokar himself was a Homeopath and he got covid. He must have started treating himself by homeopathy for one week but the fever never went. After one week, he got admitted to Bombay Hospital where he was put on ventilator. Still he did not survive.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/mumbai/mumbai-gamdevi-homeopath-dies-of-covid-19-three-days-before-his-57th-birthday/articleshow/76127084.cms
Pamela on Monday 22 June 2020 at 10:07
Why would you assume that a homeopath doctor cannot die of Covid? How many did you count?
https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/927976
This is information as of April 01,2020. The next 45 days would be even more severe.
Pamela on Monday 22 June 2020 at 04:27
Really: Check this:
https://edzardernst.com/2020/04/cuba-supplies-homeopathic-medicine-for-covid-19/
And cross check Covid data for Cuba. 2315 infected. 85 dead.
For some unexplained reason: homeopathy works.
This was also true during the Spanish flu.
https://www.ecampnd.com/homeopathy/A_Chorus_of_Fifty_in_Harmony.pdf
Data on over 25000 patients from USA.
They have the ‘medicines’. What they don’t have, is any evidence that they work better than placebo.
I am not sure what “Ayush” is?
David B says a bit -lazy- “I am not sure what “Ayush” is”
https://www.ayush.gov.in/
This is great example of preventive healthcare.
The regular healthcare in Western Europe and US can learn from them.
UK and USA have the highest mortality rates related to COVID 19
good to see that you have humour
your comment about AYUSH is hilarious
This is a very hilarious site. That s why i come in here once in a way. Just for the fun. But not too often.
But in a more serious tone it is like a color blind person. seeing a red flower . That situation is very sad for an on-looker with great empathy.
@ Santra,
EE bahut pakaata rehta hain. Wahi ka wahi, wahi ka wahi…. 😀 How do you find it hilarious ?
This site is not funny.
If preventive healthcare was a –cornerstone– of conventional treatment there was not an epidemic of
obese/diabetes in *UK and *US.
(countries with a high Covid-19 mortality rate)
As we all know, the big majority of Covid 19 victims are related to these chronic diseases.
EU countries that offer more support for CAM therapies show a much lower mortalilty.
Feeling responsible for your own health and using as few meds as possible is a matter of awareness.
That is why it’s very important that CAM and lifestyle interventions are more integrated into regular health
care. The more we follow the skeptic line, the more likely it is that health care will become unaffordable.
Most pharmaceutical companies now produce (for cost reasons) their medicines in low-wage countries
(India, China) and also test their medicines there.
With many bad peripheral phenomena such as pollution and exploitation.
Zembla is a Dutch research program, this is an international (english subtitles) version of
the documentary “The real price of cheap medicines”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=190by1BjAT8&t=57s
“EU countries that offer more support for CAM therapies show a much lower mortalilty.”
only if you select those that fit your theory and omit the others – that’s what charlatans do!
An addition to “The real price of cheap medicines” is the Zembla documentary “How safe are our medicines”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EKQ7DmlkEI&t=1777s
@Eelco_G
Highest mortality rate is Belgium, followed by UK Spain Italy Sweden France… then the USA.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
AYUSH has been the centre of controversy since it put up its advisory in January 2020 saying that “Ars Alb 30 can be used ” for Covid 19. The back lash and critiicism was so much that AYUSH had to take one step back and say “we did not say treatment, we said it can boost immunity”. In fact me came across AYUSH after seeing the reports on the back lash. AYUSH is the Ministry for alternate medicine in INDIA (n fact its not really” alternate” medicine. AYUREDA is India ‘s own system of medicine more than 5000 yeears old)
In India Ayurveda and Homeopathy are time tested and proved
If it can act as Placebo , and cure let it be. Let us simply change the name to placebo. But do use it . It cures. Thats it
Thats the evidence. What evidence does any one want to prove that fire burns/ Just put ur finger tip into the fire , it burns. It does not require a double blind RCT to prove that it burns. Or does it ?
Eelco_G, I am indeed quite a lazy person. Though earlier, in my defence, I was pressed for time and doing various things. I see now that AYUSH is the Indian equivalent of the acronym SCAM (So-Called Alternative Medicine).
Enhancing the body’s natural defence system (immunity) plays an important role in
maintaining optimum health. While there is no medicine for COVID-19 as of now, the
Indian Government’s Ministry of AYUSH has recommended self-care guidelines for
preventive health measures and boosting immunity with special reference to respiratory
health. These are supported by Ayurvedic literature and scientific publications.
And Edzard, you call this ‘hilarious’.
I cannot find wisdom in your cynical comment..
“I cannot find wisdom in your cynical comment..”
Then you have no idea about science or medicine.
Eelco_G, you opined:
Would you like to try that argument on someone who has either experienced or treed a SARS-CoV-2 induced cytokine storm?
A powerful point. It’s reckoned to be the cytokine storms that killed so many previously healthy young adults in the Spanish Flu pandemic a century ago (an H1N1 virus). Why was the death rate worst among healthy young adults instead of among the elderly and frail? Their highly responsive immune systems caused cytokine storms, leading to multiple organ failure.
This whole business of claiming that such and such a herbal or homeopathic pill will “strengthen the immune system” is entirely woolly, and seems never to be subjected to a requirement to produce evidence. Define “strengthen”. Say how “strength” is measured, then give statistics proving that the pill changes the numbers, alters the TH1/TH2 lymphocyte balance, or whatever.
The Advertising Standards Authority in the UK should perhaps be more strigent regarding health claims, or even the suggestion of health claims.
Actually speaking ARS ALB is not to be designated as IMMUNINITY BOOSTER, becasue it actually is supposed to act as a Preventive, at least, prevent the severe forms of the illness.
it is because AYUSH had to take one step backwards to save face before the severe world criticism that the Minister re-wrote the claim as “Immune booster”
Any way the caption of this articel speaks for it self . Also MAharashtra , India (link above) which shows how a state of the same India which did not accept AYUSH accounts for 1/2 of indian cases / mortality. . . . Some things are so straight forward, we really do not need an RCT, just an open mind to think and see straight
The message is: in an emergency , act. Dont think too much, when the narrow line is between life and death.
Hippocrates oath tells us something like “Dont let knowledge come before common sense “. Especially when on the other side is death and on this side, LIFE
Santra, you say:
“If it can act as Placebo , and cure let it be. Let us simply change the name to placebo. But do use it . It cures. Thats it
Thats the evidence. What evidence does any one want to prove that fire burns/ Just put ur finger tip into the fire , it burns. It does not require a double blind RCT to prove that it burns. Or does it ?”
The thing is, Santra, if I develop a serious health condition, I would like a treatment that works BETTER than placebo.
The only way to find out if a treatment works BETTER than placebo, is to run a trial, in which the treatment and placebo are tried at the same time for the same condition.
That is where the Randomised Controlled Trail (RCT) comes in. The ‘control’ is the placebo. Some patients in the trial group who get the placebo, will experience some improvement, at least for a time. If the results for the medicine and the results for the placebo turn out the same, then the medicine isn’t worth using, as it’s no BETTER than placebo, but more expensive.
On the other hand, if more patients in the medicine group have improved health, and it is maintained, then the medicine on trial is BETTER than placebo, and worth pursuing.
Santra, if you had a serious health condition, wouldn’t you want a treatment that works BETTER than placebo?
@David B
Where, or what is the SBM cure for Covid-19 …
I’m waiting
@RG
You spend a lot of time and energy criticizing SBM, even to the point of claiming that it shouldn’t be called “science”.
So what would you do instead to “cure” Covid-19?
Take something diluted to the point of being undetectable as homeopathy suggests?
Have your neck jerked (sorry, “adjusted”) as in chiropractic?
Do you seriously believe that either of these are cures?
@zebra
“What would I do to cure Covid-19”
I’m not all to concerned about Covid-19…. it’s another virus. Bad viruses have come previously, and more will come after Covid-19.
I’m trusting mostly in my immune system to keep me alive. However, my wife is more panicked than me, she took measures to obtain some first line of defense medications. If I start having symptoms…. I will have a decision to make.
Those that know me here know that I oppose many pharma meds, as I believe that regular systematic consumption of chemical drugs do more harm than good. However, in such a time, I may well decide to consume for a short treatment if I judge the risk/benefit justifiable.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7175902/pdf/main.pdf
RG, you wrote:
As you well know, there isn’t one. This is why SBM proponents aren’t pretending that there is a cure in order to cash in on it.
Compare this to the touts for pseudomedicines like homeopathy, who are pretending that their nostrums are efficacious against SARS-CoV-2 as they try to cash in by cynically exploiting the fear, ignorance, and gullibility of their marks.
There is no CURE FOR COVID. . . . . The west has proved it.
Ayurveda / Homeopathy does not have Microbiology. It does not differentiate between Rota Virus/ Entero Virus or between Strep/ staph or Aspergillosis / candidiasis or Meningococci/ Pneumococci.
All these r from the West. That s why it can treat and cure the current epidemic/ pandemic .
This is not a joke. Serious. Very very serious.
@Seve Tonkin
Steve
I would exactly say that SBM is not cashing in on Covid-19
Last I checked, ICU and ventilators don’t come cheap…. at least here in the USA. If you take an Aspirin pill in the hospital, you’re gonna pay a high fee. Hospitals refocused their attention and efforts on cashing in on Covid….. sick.
BTW- they will eventually “cash-in” on the SCIENCE to treat Covid
SBM is doing something much better than a cure, RG. It’s working on a prevention. Which, I’m sure you’ll agree, is a much better thing. A vaccine.
@Lenny
You continue hoping and wishing…. Lenny
I’ll find my own path
https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/22/the-world-needs-covid-19-vaccines-it-may-also-be-overestimating-their-power/
https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/26/21266591/covid-19-coronavirus-vaccine-fda-authorize-emergency-experimental
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8elE7Ct1jWw&feature=share&fbclid=IwAR3r4Hx5jgVbn1F7ZSQ68rmWPeOa6EPEiV2ipk8XLjcmETpW4s7fiyuPP_Q
Thank u David. That was very sweet of u
I did not say use a placebo. I just said if u want to call it a placebo, call it so. The other part of what was said is said is that : “It works”
Morevover a good doc does nt have to make a patient choose his / her treatment. There is a book named “When Breath becomes air “. in which a neuro-suregeon with CA lung would be part of the treatment protocol discussion (for himself), until one day he decided that he had to trust the doc and her decisions. It was not easy for him.
I told u about the fire burning a finger. It burns . HAs anyone ever conducted an RCT to prove that. It has been handed over generations that it will. And any one touching it due to the lack of an RCT will get it. Same way all these systems of medicines have their own text books which are taught to their students. It does not have to be proved to everyone who doubt it. If someone does nt want to use it, dont, but as my professor once told me ,”U can do what u want , but dont spread ur false gospels.”
Ayurveda is a good 5000 years old. And someone wants an RCT in it. This is how far our scientific mind has gone. People think that those who lived 5000 years ago are all stupid and we alone are intelligent. Just that a system should survive for 5000 years itself is enough evidence that it has essence. There is no recorded RCT, but there are books as valuable or more valuable than gold in all these subjects.
Everytime a doc decides to treat there is no RCT. It s been done long time ago, though in a different fashion and under a different name. Now we only have to use it and treat the illness
Santra, you think you “did not say use a placebo”?
Then we are in strange linguistic territory here. I do not know quite how else to understand “Let us simply change the name to placebo. But do use it .” which you wrote.
I have a tolerably good command of English. I am a teacher of English.
@Santra, you wrote:
Do you have any actual robust evidence for that or are we meant to accept unverifiable assertions and/or fallacious post hoc ergo propter hoc “reasoning”.
How cute: an undisguised appeal to antiquity fallacy. Even if it is a true assertion (no supporting evidence offered).
Not at all.But they held many views that we now know to be incorrect. Would you like me to start a list?
Appeal to antiquity again! Should I start another list of things that have lasted thousands of years but are clearly fallacious?
Have you ever considered following his/her advice? Because, from what you have written here, it’s not immediately obvious that you have.
Steve Tonkin on Monday 22 June 2020 at 17:52
May be you can offer an explanation for the high fatalities in the UK.
When Kerela is compared with UK:
Population : UK about 100% higher,
Population density: Kerela 300% of UK.
Literacy level: same.
% of elderly about the same.
Kerela has a large network of Ayurveda wellness centers and clinics; more than the allopathic hospitals.
Homeopathy use is fairly wide spread.
UK: mostly allopathic.
Kerela: First case – January 30, 2020.
UK: First case – January 31, 2020.
On 24.06.20 UK about 55,000 dead. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-51768274
On 24.06.20 Kerela 22 deaths.
Dr Edzard is of the opinion that there can be many reasons for lower deaths in Kerela, other than the use of Ayurvedic or Homeopathic medicines.
What are the reasons for the large number of deaths in UK? We can compare these reasons for Kerela and eliminate some further attributes.
as you regularly get so many things wrong, I am not surprised that you still cannot manage to get my name right.
Government complacency and incompetence; almost every protection measure has been introduced too late and released to early in the UK. In contrast, Kerala had (still has!) a more competent test-and-trace system, and more stringent enforcement of quarantine, etc. See https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/21/kerala-indian-state-flattened-coronavirus-curve
Steve Tonkin on Wednesday 24 June 2020 at 12:03
The reason you have deduced for the higher death rate in UK is the incompetent government and medical planners?
Until now, the logic was exactly the opposite: India’s incompetent and corrupt medical system and Ayurvedic and Homeopathic doctors, who are not doctors.
So how would you explain 22 fatalities off 3,603 infections (0.61%) compared with 42,927 fatalities from 306,210 infections (14%). This is about 23 times higher! Are you positive this outcome is because of government alone? What were doctors doing?
This is David Gorski’s view:
“….the willingness on the part of clinicians to abandon the prime dictum of medicine, to do no harm, and rush into treatments that not only may not work but may well cause serious harm. The fact is, most physicians are not trained to recognize good science from bad. Nor do they have the time to analyze every study, and too many are willing to ignore the need for reliable evidence when fear sets in. Even in non-pandemic times, doctors often favor treatments that have long been in use, seem biologically plausible, are highly remunerative, or have been heavily marketed by manufacturers. In the case of two drugs now being used against COVID-19, hydroxychloroquine and remdesivir, there is a very real possibility that patients who might have recovered from the virus without them will be harmed or even killed by the treatment.”
Is it any different in the UK?
I KRISHNA, you wrote:
I did not mention medical planners. You are dishonestly attributing to me things that I did not say.
No, but then I didn’t say “alone”, did ? Another dishonest attribution. The only thing I am positive about is that you have exactly no robust evidence that the differences are due to homeopathy, ayurveda, or any other pseudomedicine.
Also, if you did actually bother to read the Guardian article to which I linked, you clearly did not understand it.
Steve Tonkin on Friday 26 June 2020 at 10:32
The focus shifts to semantics:
Try making a calculated evaluation for over 55,000 deaths in UK compared with 22 deaths in Kerela.
Or try Cuba, another country called out by Dr Ernst for using homeopathy: 2321 infections and 84 deaths.
“As I said, I was not sure whether this was for real. Is it possible that even officials are so stupid, brainwashed or gullible to go for homeopathy in such a serious situation?”
Cuba seems to be doing good also. You can compare with Florida next door! 8 deaths/million compared to 155 deaths/million.
Population density is the answer to your question.
Kerala: 859 people per sq km – highest population density being Thiruvananthapuram: 1508 per sq km.
Population density of India is 464 per sq km.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/india-population
No megacity in Kerala. Compare the Covid19 situation with the states in which Delhi and Mumbai are situated.
https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/why-third-highest-population-density-fallacy-kerala-covid-19-story-125143
The UK has not done well. It may be that the Prime Minister’s contraction of the virus was a significant factor contributing to our country’s poor response. The rest of the cabinet appeared to go into shock at the decapitation. The biggest failure was the lack of protection of care homes. Nothing less than a scandal.
Here’s a graphic demonstration of the relationship between Covid19 and population density: https://tinyurl.com/y7xm8sn8
United States and Mexico, respectively 36 and 66 per sq km, have relatively low population densities as countries but Mexico City’s population density is 6000 per sq km. Covid19 is a disaster there and everyone knows about the impact of the virus on New York City.
The part of the world where population density has not been a factor is East Asia. Tokyo, Hong Kong, Seoul and Singapore were clearly well prepared to deal with the pandemic. No doubt due to the learning of lessons from previous pandemics emerging from their own back yard. Bats and wet markets not withstanding.
Manila is the exception, with a population density over 42,000 per sq km, accounting for more than half the total number of cases in the Philippines, with 825 recorded deaths.
Manila was totally unprepared and with the world’s most massive population density we see the tragic consequences.
Population density of the Philippines is 368 per sq km.
https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/population-by-country/
On reflection I may have been unfair on Manila – the most Mega of all megacities. Comparing the wealth of Hong Kong, Tokyo and Seoul, Manila deserves some sympathy for the size of the task confronting it, protecting so many, many people living alongside one another.
“The focus shifts to semantics”.
Thou art indeed shifty. Let’s tidy things up.
Cuba v Florida.
Total populations: Cuba 11.3 million, Florida 22 million. Forida has a land border, Cuba doesn’t.
Life expectancy: Cuba 79.2, Florida 79.1. (Worldometers)
Similar overall population densities: Cuba 106 per sq km, Florida 136 per sq km.
Largest cities.
Cuba – Havana 2.2 million. Florida – Jacksonville 0.9 million. Miami-Dade County, density 1616 per sq km, population 3 million. (World Population Review)
“Within the United States Florida contains the highest percentage of people over 65 (17.3%), and the 8th fewest people under 18 (21.9%).” (Wikipedia for reference).
Population pyramids.
Florida, age 70: 1 million+
https://worldpopulationreview.com/states/florida-population/
Cuba, age 70-74: 439,393
https://www.populationpyramid.net/cuba/2019/
Covid19 kills far more old people than young people. You didn’t think of that explanation? You really didn’t know the demographics of Florida?
Either you did but ignored it or you didn’t bother to check it out. The shifty way of the homeopath.
Leigh Jackson on Sunday 28 June 2020 at 18:05
Semantics indeed. Now Statistics?
“Florida, age 70: 1 million+
https://worldpopulationreview.com/states/florida-population/
Cuba, age 70-74: 439,393
https://www.populationpyramid.net/cuba/2019/”
Florida : dead 3419
Cuba : dead 86
(29.06.2020)
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/
Elderly population is Florida (your figure) 2.27 times of Cuba. Deaths 39.76 times more!
“Either you did but ignored it or you didn’t bother to check it out. The shifty way of the homeopath.”
You clear about your semantics?
Leigh Jackson on Saturday 27 June 2020 at 15:21
It seems you are unable to clear your own thoughts.
“Population density is the answer to your question. Kerala: 859 people per sq km.”
This population density of Kerela is 3 times that of UK. What happened to UK? Even if you take out the elderly homes’ fatalities (~12000-15000) how do you account for >43000 deaths against 22 deaths in Kerela for the same period? Absence of Mr Johnson is responsible for such large fatalities? That sounds a little funny: he could not protect himself and you argue his absence was the reason for high fatalities in the UK?
This is semantics: to prove homeopathy does not work, you have no qualms in tarnishing the capabilities of Ministers in the British cabinet. What will it be next?
what a beautiful example of a truly moronic comment!
I have no need to prove anything. The burden of proof is not mine to bear. You are the one making the idiotic pretence that “there are mortality differences in different regions of the planet, therefore homeopathy works” is a rational assertion.
Re Kerala: If you did bother to read that Guardian article, either you didn’t understand it, or you are pretending not to have understood it.
KRISHNA:
In this blog they do not understand if the data does not fit their dogmatic beliefs. They believe that the United Kingdom has everything under control, and they do not realize that together with countries like Spain that do not integrate homeopathy, they have not been able to control the crisis caused by coronavirus.
Lollipop, you wrote:
Oh, you are funny! The only ones in this conversation with dogmatic beliefs are the ones who pretend that all plausible reasons for the differences do not exist and who choose to ignore the simple, but inconvenient, truth that there is no such thing as an independently replicated robust-quality double-blinded randomised control trial that demonstrates that homeopathy is distinguishable from placebo for any condition or purpose.
Why are you pretending that I did not write, a week ago, “Government complacency and incompetence; almost every protection measure has been introduced too late and released too early in the UK.“?
Miami-Dade County, population 2,761, 580, density 1454.54 per sq km.
Broward County – adjacent to Miami-DADE – population 1,951,260, density 1616.58 per sq km.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/states/florida-population
Close to 5 million, high density, old age population. Nothing comparable in Cuba. Florida and Cuba have very different demographics. High density, bad. Old age, bad. Together terrible.
Kerela? No megacity. The first place to go under in the UK was London. No real surprise with its global connectivity and population density.
https://tinyurl.com/yc8zbx69
Remiss of me.
Cuba area 109,884 sq km; density 103 per sq km.
Havana population 2,106,146, density 2892 per sq mile.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/world-cities/havana-population/
@ Lollypop
On Monday 29 June 2020 at 18:35 you said:
“In this blog they do not understand if the data does not fit their dogmatic beliefs. They believe that the United Kingdom has everything under control, and they do not realize that together with countries like Spain that do not integrate homeopathy, they have not been able to control the crisis caused by coronavirus.”
Two days before I said “The UK has not done well.” I went on to slam the government for the care homes scandal. Steve Tonkin has also lambasted our government’s handling of the crisis.
Nothing could be more dogmatic than your inane, one trick trotter-outer called “Homeopathy”.
Leigh Jackson on Monday 29 June 2020 at 19:53
Your figures!
Miami-Dade County, population 2,761, 580, density 1454.54 per sq km.
Havana population 2,106,146, density 2892 per sq mile.
Now compare Miami with Havana! Miami 991 dead. Havana – put ALL 86 Cuban deaths into Havana and explain how Havana with 2 times the population density of Miami has 1/10 deaths compared to Miami?
Kerela has NO mega-city and still has the population density 3 times that of UK. You can compare ANY part of UK with Kerela. The answer does not change: Homeopathy and Ayurveda are the defining reasons behind such astronomical differences in deaths in UK and Kerela.
I KRISHNA, you wrote:
and pretended that this means that Havana has twice the population density of Miami-Dade. Simple arithmetic (1454.54 /km^2 * 2.59 = 3767 /mi^2) demonstrates that Miami-Dade has the higher population density.
You went on to pretend that
Only if you ignore all plausible hypotheses. These have already been cited in the original article, several of the follow-up comments, and that Guardian article that you seem to pretend does not exist.
Iqbal
There are three square km to a square mile so the population density is actually less in Havana. The country was locked down hard and early. Mask wearing is compulsory.
You are basically saying bananas are the same as flowerpots and concluding that because of this, homeopathy in Kerala works.
Steve Tonkin on Monday 29 June 2020 at 06:38
“there are mortality differences in different regions of the planet, therefore homeopathy works” is a rational assertion.”
Explain it your way! Who has contributed to the mess that has UK citizens dying in THOUSANDS?
“Re Kerala: If you did bother to read that Guardian article, either you didn’t understand it, or you are pretending not to have understood it.”
Off course I understood it. Are you trying to say that NHS was not aware that such actions are possible in the UK and did nothing similar? This article appeared on 14.05.2020. NHS doctors did not see this message? Learn nothing from it?
If the NHS doctors were aware then how would you explain such dramatic difference in fatalities? The X factor?
This is standard protocol. Success belongs to “scientific medicine” even if they forget to explain why the same activity got zero results in UK? Write to Guardian!
Steve Tonkin on Wednesday 01 July 2020 at 09:04
“and pretended that this means that Havana has twice the population density of Miami-Dade. Simple arithmetic (1454.54 /km^2 * 2.59 = 3767 /mi^2) demonstrates that Miami-Dade has the higher population density.”
Point taken. 30% higher population density translates into 1152% higher fatalities.
Now run a comparative evaluation for Kerela 300% higher density translates into .04% deaths. Something wrong in maths here?
The correct version was spoken 100 years ago: Victor Vaughan, a former president of the American Medical Association, received urgent orders to proceed directly to Camp Devens outside of Boston. What Vaughan witnessed at the military changed his life forever and compelled him to question his very faith in medical science.
“The saddest part of my life,” Vaughan admitted, “was when I witnessed the hundreds of deaths of the soldiers in the Army camps and did not know what to do. At that moment I decided never again to prate about the great achievements of medical science and to humbly admit our dense ignorance in this case.”
Exactly as it was 100 years ago.
Oh dear. Looks like the Indian government has pissed on the homeopaths’ bonfires regarding coronavirus. https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1235380/coronavirus-latest-update-india-china-wuhan-australia-new-zealand-ikea-homeopathy
Lenny, that’s interesting, about the article in The Express. AYUSH still seem to be peddling the claim about “boosting” the immune system. As always, without saying how the boost is measured…..
Miami City has a population just under 500,00.
Miami Metro has a population density 13,512 per sq mile (~35,000 per sq km).
MM includes Miami Dade/Broward/Palm Beach Counties.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/us-cities/miami-fl-population
Palm Beach County, adjacent to Broward County has a population 1.5 million.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm_Beach_County,_Florida
Jacksonville has a population half that of Havana, with a comparable density.
In short Forida has some very dense populations and some less dense populations. It no doubt has many old people’s homes. They will be the most dense populations of the most frail and sick. Would be interesting to know how well Forida protected their care homes.
Apart from the high proportion of elderly people in Florida there are generic health factors to consider such as obesity, high blood pressure and underlying health conditions like diabetes. It’s known that underlying medical conditions are a significant factor with Covid19. How do these demographics bear on the statistics?
https://health.wusf.usf.edu/post/life-expectancy-study-provides-insight-whats-killing-floridians
It can be treacherous comparing different countries with differening populations. There are many obvious and not so obvious pitfalls.
Useful though, if everything is to be distorted through a homeopathic prism. There are damned lies and then there are specious homeopathic comparisons.
The facts and stats of the course of Covid19 in the UK on BBC radio 4 today.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p08jh9j7
UK was late to impose restrictions on entry to the UK before lockdown. Out of 16 million people entering the country between January and lockdown a few hundred were quarantined. 1356 different vectors have been identified, 25% from France, 33% from Spain, the others from Italy. There was seeding of the virus across the country. By the time the first person died it’s estimated that 50,000 people were infected.
Testing was abandoned because the infection was so wide spread there was no capacity to trace. By the time UK total testing reached 18,000, Germany was testing as many every day.
The model being used gave a false picture. We were two weeks behind Italy not four as the initial model suggested. Later models suggest that had we locked down 1 week earlier excess deaths would have been reduced by half to three quarters.
43% of excess deaths in UK have been in care homes – 25,000. Patients were being sent to care homes from hospital without testing up to 18th March. A total ban on visitors to care homes was belatedly imposed.
Germany and Norway also failed their care home populations.
My apologies. Monday 29 @ 19:53 I said Havana’s population density was 2892 per sq mile. I should have said per sq km. (I converted from the link which gives 7490 per sq mile)
I think I better conclude this topic with this. Got my factors crossed again for Wednesday 21.04pm. The conversion from 13,512 per sq mile should of course be 5217 per sq km.
I lost it last night with my square mile/km conversions. Here’s a tool:
https://www.thecalculatorsite.com/conversions/area/square-miles-to-square-kilometers.php
The conversion factor is 1 sq mile = 2.59 sq km.
So Havana’s population density which was given on my orignal link as 7490 per sq mile, converts to 19,400 per sq km. I was correct first time with my Miami Metro conversion: 13,512 per sq mile converts to 35,000 per sq km. Miami Metro has twice the density of Havana.
Steve Tonkin on Monday 22 June 2020 at 17:52
There is a book written by Paul Brunton many years ago , “A search in secret India”. Apparently lots of people after reading it went to India to know what it is , or whether what he wrote was sure. Apparently most were not disappointed.
India apparently has much more to it than Ayureda / Homeopathy.
@Santra Was that meant to be a reply? I ask because it did not respond to any of the five points I made.
It s being done in many places. … India, Iran, and even USA, UK
The FDA is constantly after people who are giving homeopathic medications if they get the chance.
https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/india-has-less-covid-cases-despite-larger-population-california-congresswoman-slams-trump-administration/ar-BB15XZLH?ocid=msedgntp
Steve Tonkin on Friday 26 June 2020 at 10:35
Just a suggestion as a reply. All 5 points will be covered if u know India
Simply writing individual replies to each will only be an argument. Arguments just dont work , especially when people think differently, unless someone has an open mind and tries to explore to know the truth.
I am a doctor with (post -graduation) . Had no belief in Homeopathy. But sometimes life takes u to most un-expected corners.
Even the few experiences that i had personally (like a cure of a very chronic cough lasting for months ) me just thought it was a chance. A cough lasting for months can disappear on its own.
Then it was like Homeopathy was forced on me. And i had to explore how it cured and if it really did. After my duty hours in my hospital, i used to sit for hours together with a Homeopathy doc for many years. Fascinated by the wonderful cures.
That s why and how i learnt Homeopathy. If i say NO about Homeopathy, it will be the greatest gesture of in-gratitude not only to the system, but also to the great Person from whom i learnt Homeopathy. And what i write now is a tribute to that Great Teacher
I ve burned the mid night oil learning Homeopathy after doing Medicine from one of the most prestigious institutes in the world
I ve worked in ICU s and with Ventilators. I ve also seen patients who had been posted for amputation recover without surgery. . . after homeopathy. . . and much more
You ain’t seen nothing…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoAzpa1x7jU
Iqbal, Santra, RG et al
As of today, India now has the fastest-rising COVID rate in the World. And the true rate will be much higher because of little testing being done in the slums.
40,000 official deaths and counting. But with most deaths happening at home on untested victims, the true total is thought to be at least double that.
Another resounding success for AYUSH.
@Lenny
I fail to understand the point of your post… Lenny
People are dying everywhere of Covid-19
Both advanced countries like the UK, or less advanced countries like India. Countries that use EVB and have good equipment like the USA, or countries like Bolivia that don’t have the ventilator equipment. In countries that did lock down like Brazil, and in countries that didn’t lock down like Sweden.
There is no one size fits all solution for the pandemic.
The deaths per million in the UK dwarf India, what’s your point ?
Homeopathy doesn’t seem to be making much difference in India. According to the BBC, India has now overtaken Brazil in Covid-19 cases, giving it the second-largest number of cases in the world. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-54023509 (may be bbc.com outside the UK).
it might make a negative difference in that it increases infection rates through conveying a false sense of security.
True!
I think what the homeopaths are crowing about is not the number of infections per se, but the low mortality rate in India. Obviously, we cannot know if this is due to under-reporting or some other confounding reason, but I find it interesting that mortality (and intensive care) rates generally seem to be only a fraction of what they were a few months ago.
@Steve Tonkin
If any country should be condemned for the reporting of mortality rate numbers…. IT SHOULD BE CHINA !!
And IF the numbers have NOT been under-reported, then China should be condemned for mysteriously escaping a pandemic…. (plague if you will)…. while spreading it all over the entire world !
Either way…. China should be investigated and held accountable.
@RG: I don’t engage with covimbecilic conspiracy theories.
@Steve Tonkin
If you choose to put your hands over your ears…. while you scream la la la lalala. That is your option, I will put you in the camp of idiots that knows nothing.
It’s been documented that Chinese journalist and MD’s who spoke out against the PRC with regard to what the facts were surrounding the Wuhan Virus continue missing. If you wanna believe it’s conspiracy theory, it’s certainly your option to continue through life with your eyes and ears closed.
Are you gullible enough to also believe everything the governments of Cuba and N. Korea report ?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-52194356
so, how well did homeopathy work in Karela?
the infection rates seem to suggest to me that it had zero effect.
Surprise surprise.
From the Hindustani Times: “Kerala’s Covid-19 positivity rate thrice national average, triggers blame game”.
Blame homeopathy! Correlation proves causation!
At last the Supreme Court of India has allowed Homoeopathy docs to prescribe for Covid as prophylaxis, immunity booster and to mitigate the illness.
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/homeopathy-practitioners-can-give-medicines-to-mitigate-covid-19-supreme-court-2339088
However it has to be remembered that India, especially rural India, and the not severely scientific India , (or in a way, the
psudo-scientific people of India, who believe that science can happen only in a lab) had taken Homeopathy/ Ayurveda in a big way as prophylactic
India may have over taken the whole world in number of cases,
Going by mathematics 9 out of 10 (mortality )is very bad , 9 out of 100 is still bad, 9 out of 1000 is. …. ahhhh. .. ..9 out of 10,000 is ahhhhhhhh. . . 9 out of 1,00,000 is ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. . . . .
So consider the population of India, the second most populated country in the world, Consider the population of Kerala, the most densely populated state in India
Consider the number of people who were brought back from abroad to Kerala, who tested positive even before leaving the airport
But also as of today, please look at the India and the USA graph:
https://www.bing.com/search?q=covid+graph&cvid=38e321bf175b41a480072aa536ff2542&pglt=547&FORM=ANNTA1&PC=U531
I just got this as a response to tweeting this post:
(Cyriac) Abby Philips
@drabbyphilips
·
2m
I’m from #Kerala & managing #COVID patients & I assure U, #Homeopathy did NOTHING in improving #healthcare. Everyone was ‘SERVED’ #homeo drug by false & overrated social media advertisements. The gullible were forced to take this ‘water’ thinking it was effective. Big #fraud.
What she failed to mention is that CON-med did nothing in improving healthcare either.
In my area, if you have Wuhan Virus symptoms, or test positive….. STAY HOME ! That is what sick patients are instructed.
If you’re dying, then go to the emergency at the hospital. Where they will admit you to and ICU, and you will almost certainly die !
And they will collect their $13000 from the government. God forbid the patient ends up on the dreaded “ventilator”, where the payment goes up to $39.000 per patient.
Why wouldn’t a sick Wuhan virus patient try some homeopathy ? …. it’s not like CON-med is curing patients.
https://www.dailywire.com/news/yes-hospitals-get-paid-more-for-coronavirus-coded-patients-even-if-they-havent-been-tested
Moreover this person is managing Covid patients. . . which means she is a health professional in the system of Modern Medicine, which was the only system that could manage Covid in Kerala. . .hence the court order
Obviously , she wont agree that Homoeopathy did anything for Covid . People r generally very closed and cant see beyond their own knowledge
Anyway dont want to argue
Got this message on my WhattsApp:
”
https://arizonahomeopathic.org/homeopathy-and-covid-19/
A Maryland Pulmonologist refers covid patients to a Los Angeles HOmeopathy doc after he himself was cured of severe Covid
”
This is a Homoeopathy site. Others would have something else to say
But all these r personal experiences of people.. There can be difference of opinion. People can close their eyes, ears and minds to all these, but also they can be open to it. It is one s choice according to one s basic character.
But some people choose to be open . That s all
in Kerala also there are the severely scientific people . . . . who wont agree to Homoeopathy . . that s why someone had to go to court for the sake of Homeopathy and then file an appeal on that court verdict in the higher court
The Supreme court verdict article above is an appeal on a verdict from the Kerala High Court. . . so obviously there is lots of anti Homoeopathy people
Whether Homoeopathy did anything or not. . . . .
Well, me not here to argue. There s the Lower court (High court) verdict, there is the Top court verdict, there is the graph India vs USA or any other country in comparision to the population density . People can use their intelligence and look at all of them with an open mind. .
.
Living in kerala is not a criteria for saying that Homoeopathy did or did not work there.
This is for the people who are interested in Homeopathy, and not for an argument . The video speaks what history has to say about contribution of Homoeopathy in pandemics/ epidemics .
https://www.homeopathylasvegas.com/coronavirus-treatment/
https://edzardernst.com/2017/02/homeopaths-love-it-the-epidemiological-evidence-suggesting-that-homeopathy-works/
Santra, you wrote:
Nice try, but if you post what is clearly either anecdote or nonsense, and try to pass it off as evidence, others will argue.
e.g. your https://arizonahomeopathic.org/homeopathy-and-covid-19/ story is so blatantly obviously a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy on stilts that I’m astonished that you thought you could get away with positing that sort of drivel here.
But I do understand that, in such instances, you have no counter-argument, so your unwillingness to argue is entirely understandable.
Thinking about homoepathy ends up with thoughts like:
HIGHLY DILUTE HOMEOPATHIC REMEDIES ARE PURE PLACEBOS!
… or people think about the strange nonsense about the Samual Hahnemann published as reasoning for the functionality of his remedies.
However, a lot of people see success in using globuly to stay healthy or in treatment of disease (same for my familiy!).
If want to explain it with nowadays science we just have the placebo effect. If we talk about “placebo effect” this has a smell of “nothing”. However, we know that placebo effect is a very powerful one – often just little less than the effect of a modern remedy. Thus: don’t underrate a good placebo!
Nevertheless, I do believe that there is more about homoeopathy than just the placebo effect.
Have you ever had a look at the preparation of a homeopathic remedy? You should do so and reflect the idea of solving the matter to almost nothing. To me it looks like an extraction of certain parts as well as a very intense cleaning of it.
The first step is clearly an extraction step. In the next steps each time there is a certain part of the solution taken for the next step. After shaning the new solution 10 times it is placed on the desk and if after the first step there is a sedimentation of parts of the extraction, this layer of sedimentation will be taken for the next steps again and again. For this reason I would expect some matter to sruvive the process of dillution. In the end it is not dillution but a seperation and cleaning of a certain layer.
On the other hand look at this finding in sciene: We know about environmental DNA. In a river we can detect technically the existence of certain species jus because of presence of their DNA in the water. What would happen to an organism that would be able to detect harmful threads coming to an environment this way – and a biological system that would prepare its immune system against it even before the first virus or bacteria enter the body? It would be a significant evolutionary advantage!
We know about nematodes that are able to detect finest differences in protein structure. Why not an unknow system in the body of humans, which is able to detect finest signals of coming theads by means of first sights in form of molecules of it?
I have high hope that homoepathy could be freed from its “mystic” aspects and become a way of treating illness and prevent diseses by informing and preparing the body and its immune system before becoming infected with it?
This is nothing but a hypothesis. However I would expect that there is some way of functionality of homeopathic remedies that are above placebo effects. We would need some engaged scientists that don’t fear the risk of getting offended by a scientific community which is closed minded and prefers to stay with sayings and old theories instead of risking steps on new land and a widened idea about the world around us.
“we know that placebo effect is a very powerful one”
yes, possibly.
but you don’t need a placebo for creating a placebo effect. if I give an active medication with empathy and compassion, I will also generate a placebo effect – PLUS a specific effect of my medication.
this is why placebo effects are no justification for homeopathy or other useless treatments.