“In my medical practice, writes Sheila Patel, M.D. on the website of Deepak Chopra, I always take into consideration the underlying dosha of a patient, or what their main imbalance is, when choosing treatments out of the many options available. For example, if I see someone who has the symptoms of hypertension as well as a Kapha imbalance, I may prescribe a diuretic, since excess water is more likely to be a contributing factor. I would also encourage more exercise or physical activity, since lack of movement is often a causative factor for these individuals. However, in a Vata-type person with hypertension, a diuretic may actually cause harm, as the Vata system tends to have too much dryness (air and space). I’ve observed that Vatas often have more side effects and electrolyte imbalances due to the diuretic medication. For these individuals, a beta-blocker may be a better choice, as this “slows” down the excitatory pathways in the body. In addition, I recommend meditation and calming activities to settle the excess energy as an adjunct to (or at times, instead of) the medicine. Alternatively, for someone with hypertension who is predominantly a Pitta type or who has a Pitta imbalance, I may choose a calcium-channel blocker, as this medication may be more beneficial in regulating the process of “energy exchange” in the body, which is represented by the fire element of Pitta. This is just one example of the way in which we can tailor our choice of medication to best suit the individual.
“In contrast with conventional medicine, which until very recently has assumed that a given disorder or disease is the same in all people, Ayurveda places great importance on recognizing the unique qualities of individual human beings. Ayurveda’s understanding of constitutional types or doshas offers us a remarkably accurate way to pinpoint what is happening inside each individual, allowing us to customize treatment and offer specific lifestyle recommendations to prevent disease and promote health and longevity. Keeping the doshas balanced is one of the most important factors in keeping the whole mind-body system in balance. When our mind-body system is in balance and we are connecting to our inner wisdom and intelligence, then we are most able to realize our full human potential and achieve our optimal state of being…”
END OF QUOTE
From such texts, some might conclude that Ayurvedic medicine is gentle and kind (personally, I am much more inclined to feel that Ayurvedic medicine is full of BS). This may be true or not, but Ayurvedic medicines are certainly anything but gentle and kind. In fact, they can be positively dangerous. I have repeatedly blogged about their risks, in particular the risk of heavy metal poisoning (see here, here, and here, for instance).
My 2002 systematic review summarised the evidence available at the time and concluded that heavy metals, particularly lead, have been a regular constituent of traditional Indian remedies. This has repeatedly caused serious harm to patients taking such remedies. The incidence of heavy metal contamination is not known, but one study shows that 64% of samples collected in India contained significant amounts of lead (64% mercury, 41% arsenic and 9% cadmium). These findings should alert us to the possibility of heavy metal content in traditional Indian remedies and motivate us to consider means of protecting consumers from such risks.
Meanwhile, new data have emerged and a new article with important information has recently been published by authors from the Department of Occupational and Environmental Health , College of Public Health, The University of Iowa and the State Hygienic Laboratory at the University of Iowa, USA. They present an analysis based on reports of toxic metals content of Ayurvedic products obtained during an investigation of lead poisoning among users of Ayurvedic medicine. Samples of Ayurvedic formulations were analysed for metals and metalloids following established US. Environmental Protection Agency methods. Lead was found in 65% of 252 Ayurvedic medicine samples with mercury and arsenic found in 38 and 32% of samples, respectively. Almost half of samples containing mercury, 36% of samples containing lead, and 39% of samples containing arsenic had concentrations of those metals per pill that exceeded, up to several thousand times, the recommended daily intake values for pharmaceutical impurities.
The authors concluded that lack of regulations regarding manufacturing and content or purity of Ayurvedic and other herbal formulations poses a significant global public health problem.
I could not have said it better myself!
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The regulations governing the manufacture, promotion and selling of medicines have been established to protect patients.
Those who wish to sell medicines should comply with regulations.
Those who prescribe unregulated preparations are quacks.
Tough, but patient safety demands high standards.
Those who wish otherwise are quacks.
Don’t duck this issue!
*Reads as far as the word ‘dosha’*
*scratches head*
*stops reading*
It’s too bad you stopped reading after the word ‘dosha’ – 9 more words would have cleared up your confusion. But if that doesn’t do it (or the link he posted), Edzard can explain the ‘dosha’ part to you and why Patel brings up the term. The basic idea is pretty straightforward, but weirdly has nothing to do with the post title. Patel isn’t talking about using Ayurvedic medicines – she’s a modern, western MD. She uses the example of hypertension treatment options (diuretics, beta-blockers, calcium-channel blockers), and using Traditional models of the body and imbalance to help guide her choices.
Edzard will also have to explain the bizarre segue “From such texts, some might conclude that Ayurvedic medicine is gentle and kind”. That’s a bit of a weird conclusion to come to, from the preceding paragraphs. That certainly is a head scratcher. Maybe there was some editing before posting, and the segue made sense before the edits…???
He can also explain how he got from modern, western medicines (diuretics, beta-blockers, calcium-channel blockers) to metals found in Ayurvedic medicines (which Patel isn’t talking about using). Another head scratcher. It seems like two totally different posts got crunched into one.
Let dentists prescribe & administer the Ayurvedic medicines that contain mercury. They’ve been arguing that dental amalgam mercury containing fillings are safe to use for 200+ years.
…and your evidence Sandra, against that is…??
@Bjorn Geir
Can I safely assume that you are a dentist that still places amalgam dental fillings?
Why on earth would you Sandra? Why don’t you just answer my question?
They aren’t ayurvedic, Sandra. And just because you continue to labour under the misaprehension that you were being poisoned to death by your fillings, the evidence of millions of other people would indicate otherwise. All you need to do is look at life expectancies as time has gone by and the edentulous (toothless and therefore amalgam filling-less) population has died out through old age. It has increased. If fillings were poisonous, the opposite would be the case. They are safe to use, always have been, no matter how much in your deluded imaginations you and others would wish it to be otherwise. They are being phased out as other materials supersede them and due to the Mianamata protocol, designed to prevent environmental mercury pollution
Ernst mentioned the dangers of mercury in ayurvedic medicines. An analogoy can be drawn between the two precautions. As you well know, dental amalgam fillings can contain up to 50% mercury. The word “amalgam” means combined with mercury.
Per safety guidelines, how must your store dental amalgam material in your dental operatory? When you restore an old or place a new amalgam dental filling, what are the mandatory safety requirements you must employ to protect yourself and your staff from mercury vapors?
Try to refrain from personal insults please.
I rarely use amalgam. All amalgam is encapsulated. There is no evidence of harm to either patient or operator from Hg vapour when placing or removing amalgam restorations and as such no mandatory safety requirements are in place. All suction systems have to be fitted with an amalgam separator to prevent pulverised amalgam from entering waste water where it can theoretically leach Hg into the sea and become concentrated in the flesh of oily fish from where it becomes capable of absorption by humans in their diet.
I am not going to contribute further to this discussion. The nuances of Hg absorption and the varying toxicities of the commonly occurring organomercury compounds is pointless to discuss with someone who won’t be able to understand it.
@Lenny I am not surprised you couldn’t resist the temptation to question my understanding of this issue in a derogatory manner.
I am as well educated about the use of dentistry and dental amalgams as you are. In the past I was invited to debate two dentists & department heads within the dental school at Tuft’s University on live television in Tampa, Florida. I also appeared on numerous live radio talk shows with researcher Dr. Hal Huggins, DDS, MS. I’m sure you know he authored the book “It’s All In Your Head”, the hazards of silver amalgam dental fillings.
The St. Petersburg Florida Times newspaper interviewed me and published a Sunday feature article about me and this issue 30 years ago. My efforts helped spearhead the CBS 60 Minutes coverage of the hazards of amalgam dental fillings around that same time. The American Dental Association spent millions to counteract this bad press. The only thing they managed to do was have Consumer Reports and The Readers Digest publish a layman’s version of the AMA’s position that amalgams were safe. Thankfully, from my perspective, the damage to the ADA and its reputation was crushing.
In 1968, my German husband earned his Master’s Degree in Dental Materials at Marquette University in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. I transcribed and edited his thesis. Dentists have been looking for safer materials since that time; perhaps even before then.
My husband then went on to complete his PhD thesis in pharmaceutical chemistry at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor. I also transcribed and edited that thesis. As a University of New Mexico professor, my husband went on to teach pharmaceutical chemistry for over 20 years.
The dental societies of every country have not done dentists any favors by withholding information from their members.
For example: “Mercury has been found to accumulate in vital organs and tissues, such as the liver, brain,41 and heart muscle.42 Major symptoms of mercury toxicity include emotional instability, tremors, gingivitis, and kidney failure.43 Some also believe mercury may be linked to multiple sclerosis 44 and epileptic seizures. 45 Further, its affect on the body’s immune system is potentially devastating,46 possibly contributing to diseases such as leukemia and hematopoietic dycrasias 47″ https://scholars.unh.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1050&context=risk
In case you have not read it yet, the ewe sheep study done in the early 1990s at the Swedish Karolinska institute details the routes of tissue accumulation and urinary excretion of dental mercury placed in their teeth. It’s chilling.
I am grateful to and want to thank Professor Ernst for the opportunity to contribute my knowledge and views to this forum discussion!
Breathtaking hubris, Sandra. Nice to know a medical transcriptionist knows as much about dentistry as a dentist. I’d like to invite you into my surgery to diagnose caries, prepare a cavity and then restore it with amalgam. Then claim you’re as educated in the use of dental amalgams as I am. Dunning-Kruger strikes again. You mention your friend Hal Huggins.. A legendary figure in dental circles. Gross negligence wasn’t it which caused him to have his licence revoked?
As ever, you confuse the terms “transcribe” and “understand”. You might also want to do some more reading on the sheep study which was monumentally flawed and as such has been ignored by the profession for the nonesense it is. The amalgams I used in the past, unlike those in the study, were correctly triturated. And I’m not a sheep, Sandra. Neither are any of my patients ruminant herbivores. Are you?
Lenny, there no need to be impolite to Sandra. Well done to Sandra for standing up to the bully boys.
She has made a highly valuable contribution to the discussion and your response is unbecoming of a professional dentist. Maybe it would be something to consider focusing on your work helping people rather than wasting more of your energy on this battle against homeopathy that you have been doing for so long.
What is it with you Lenny, why is this issue with homeopathy so important to you?
What is it with you Greg, why is this issue of evidence so unimportant to you?
The issue with your website Dr Ernst is that it really shows up bad manners and sneering contempt of others who do not share the skeptics viewpoint.
What could you or Lenny possibly know about homeopathy? You were an incompetent practitioner (judging from your results) and Lenny is a dentist.
your statements are not just wrong but they also show up bad manners and sneering contempt of others who do not share your viewpoint, if I may say so.
That’s right, no true Harry Potter in this site. It feels too true to be good in here.
It´s nothing to do with ´viewpoint´.
Point out where I was impolite, Greg. Would you rather consult a dentist or a medical transcriptionist if you had a dental problem?
Her contribution to the discussion is a huge Straw Man. The discussion was about Ayurvedic, not dentistry. I chose to reply in order to point out the inaccuracies in her post. She is wrongly critical of my profession; I chose to defend it. In what way is this “unbecoming of a professional dentist”? Because it shows one of your friends to be demonstrably incorrect and you don’t like it?
And please point out where homeopathy was mentioned in my discussion with Sandra. It wasn’t. You’re imagining things again, Greg. Wishful thinking, as with all your arguments. Do try to keep up. I’m waiting for Sandra to explain why the reduction of the gamma-2 phase in the high copper admixed alloys introduced in the 1980s possibly caused problems with microleakage and the potential for compromise of the dentinopulpal complex, something which which, as an expert, I would expect her to be intimately familiar.
“Point out where I was impolite, Greg.”
If you have to ask…you wouldn’t understand.
@Greg Thank you.
Lenny:
1. Dunning-Kruger strikes again
In the field of psychology, the Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias wherein people of low ability suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly assessing their cognitive ability as greater than it is. (Google)
2. is pointless to discuss with someone who won’t be able to understand it.
3 As ever, you confuse the terms “transcribe” and “understand”
In other words, you can’t defend your belief
“Lenny” the dentist had something to share about me with his friends on Twitter: (I am brownbagpantry on Twitter).
The charming @brown bag pantry has turned up on a couple of threads on the @EdzardErnst blog. I’ve already told her to piss off. I wonder how long until others similarly lose their patience?
1:31 PM – 20 Mar 2018
https://twitter.com/lennylaw/status/976194628297904134
Brownbagpantry!!! That figures. The mother of all cranks. Can safely be ignored. Like being blocked by D Ullman, being blocked on Twitter by the Brownbagpantry is an exceptional honour.
YES!
except for comic relief [for that she is excellent]
@Edzard who said:
YES! except for comic relief [for that she is excellent]:
I can’t stop laughing! How ironic that you have provided your own version of comic relief by not abiding by your own admonition to refrain from ad hom comments that are “playing the player, not the ball”.
it was a compliment!
everyone else thinks you are much worse than that
You still don’t know what the ad hominem fallacy is, do you Sandra?
Awww, poor persecuted victim Sandra! Your persistent repeat-ignore nonsense aside, perhaps if you didn´t have form that has reasonably led to the questioning of your integrity, you might have been better received.
Yes, Sandra. And?
Sandra likes to block people on Twitter if they disagree with the nonsense she posts. She has a history of then stalking them via private windows.
Indeed. Me, for instance:
@Lenny
I made my point. Ernst wrote that Ayurvedic remedies are not safe because they contain mercury. I pointed out that dentists have a different view about the safety of mercury.
@Sandra
Homeopathic ‘medicines’ are prepared in water (±alcohol), which is a toxin — lots of people drown in it. What’s that you say? “It depends on the quantity and the route of exposure, stupid!” Aha! We may be getting somewhere. Now apply this same thinking to mercury and Ayurvedic medicine vs. dental amalgams. Anything slowly seeping into that dense sponge you call your brain?
There is a level of false equivalence here.
We use(d) mercury amalgam as part of a surgical intervention. Diseased tooth substance was removed and replaced with amalgam; there was a palpable benefit to the surgical intervention. If we had not intervened, the process of decay would progress with the potential sequelae of pain, infection and tooth loss from resulting pulpal necrosis. We knew that amalgam had the theoretical potential to cause harm but the balance of evidence was that the minimal theoretical risks of using amalgam as a restorative material were outweighed by the absolute benefits of avoiding pain, infection and tooth loss. The amalgam is also used surgically and not systemically – you will know the nuances of what these terms mean, Sandra; you’re a transcriptionist after all – and the differences between the surgical use in dentistry and the physiological use in Ayurveda are plain.
Is there any evidence of benefit from the heavy metals included in Ayurvedic remedies?
No.
The risk therefore outweighs the benefit.
“In contrast with conventional medicine, which until very recently has assumed that a given disorder or disease is the same in all people, Ayurveda places great importance on recognizing the unique qualities of individual human beings. Ayurveda’s understanding of constitutional types or doshas offers us a remarkably accurate way to pinpoint what is happening inside each individual, allowing us to customize treatment and offer specific lifestyle recommendations to prevent disease and promote health and longevity.”
IMHO doshas pigeonhole people into a tiny number of boxes, and are racist to boot.
@Ernst & @Henness Both of you should be embarrassed.
“One of the most striking feature of the debates about alternative medicine is, in my experience, the fact that, whenever the defenders of the indefensible ran out of rational arguments, personal attacks are rarely far. Personal or ad hominem attacks are fallacious arguments directly directed at a named individual which serve as substitutes for that individual’s arguments. In football terminology, they play the player instead of the ball.”
http://edzardernst.com/2012/12/ad-hominem-attacks-are-signs-of-victories-of-reason-over-unreason/
so….?
Hoisted by your own petard. Thanks for the opportunity.
sorry, you lost me
Anyway, Sandra said:
“Hoisted by your own petard. Thanks for the opportunity.”
The phrase is “Hoist with your own petard”. Hamlet, Act 3, Scene 4.
You’re welcome.
The comments by Ernst show that he was hoist by his own petard. You’re welcome. It’s been a pleasure.
hoist by/with (one’s) own petard.
To be injured, ruined, or defeated by one’s own action, device, or plot that was intended to harm another; to have fallen victim to one’s own trap or schemes. (Note: “hoist” in this instance is the simple past-tense of the archaic form of the verb, “hoise.”) To be harmed or disadvantaged by an action of one’s own which was meant to harm someone else. (From a line in Shakespeare’s Hamlet.)
Dr. Paul Morgan once tweeted to me that I had been “hoisted by your own petard.” My bad for trusting that his use of the word hoist was grammatically correct. Further proof that he, like other rude skeptics, are rarely correct, or polite.
Nope. You still don’t know what the ad hominem fallacy is, Sandra, do you?
As a general rule, Alan and Edzard demolish your arguments with logic and evidence prior to labeling you as stupid.
“Sandra you are ugly and smell and your eyes are too close together so you must be wrong” = Ad Hom.
“Sandra your support of this position is demonstrably incorrect and your continued refusal to accept this shows your stupidity” = in football terms a perfectly fair challenge in which the ball was won and the referee waves “play on”.
@Lenny, Lenny, Lenny
To refresh your memory, Ernst wrote: “…. lead was found in 65% of 252 Ayurvedic medicine samples with mercury and arsenic found in 38 and 32% of samples, respectively. Almost half of samples containing mercury, 36% of samples containing lead, and 39% of samples containing arsenic had concentrations of those metals per pill that exceeded, up to several thousand times, the recommended daily intake values for pharmaceutical impurities.”
Sandra wrote: Let dentists prescribe & administer the Ayurvedic medicines that contain mercury. They’ve been arguing that dental amalgam mercury containing fillings are safe to use for over 200 years.
Lenny wrote: “They (dental amalgam fillings) are safe to use, always have been, no matter how much in your deluded imaginations you and others would wish it to be otherwise.”
Conclusions:
1. Based on the data Ernst quotes, even small amounts of mercury in Ayurvedic medicines can be hazardous to humans.
2. If Ernst is correct, dentists could be exposing their patients to an amount of mercury that exceeds, up to several thousand times, the recommended daily intake values for pharmaceutical impurities.
Fact: Each dental amalgam filling contains up to 50% mercury.
3. Ernst & Lenny need to talk.
4. Without questioning their health status, level of education, prowess or state of mind, Sandra has been able to skillfully hoist both Ernst & Lenny by their own petard(s).
dream on Sandra
Following your example, Ernst.
Sandra. Hoist by our own petards? Oh, I think not. Your argument is fundamentally flawed by false equivalence. Read my later post and have a go at understanding it. I’ll help you with the big words if you want. Ayurvedic are systemic medicines. They are ingested. And absorbed (I’d be interested to know what mercury compounds there are in Ayurvedics – elemental mercury is poorly absorbed (see below) but organomercury compounds are more dangerous) whilst amalgam is not ingested.
If you could provide some links to documented and verified case reports of people who have suffered mercury poisoning from their amalgam fillings, I’d be grateful. From proper journals, please.
Whilst you’re looking, you can find all the countless documented cases of people who have suffered mercury (and lead) poisoning from Ayurvedic remedies.
You might even like this from a specialist toxicologist at the US capital poison control center website concerning amalgam. Pretty authoritative I’d have said. http://poison.org/articles/2010-dec/do-fillings-cause-mercury-poisoning.
Your move in the game of pidgeon chess.
@Lenny I have read what you shared. I hope you will read what I have to share.
From the IAOMT Mercury Poisoning Symptoms and Dental Amalgam Fillings
https://iaomt.org/resources/dental-mercury-facts/mercury-poisoning-symptoms-dental-amalgam/
The International Academy of Oral Medicine and Toxicology (IAOMT) is a global network of dentists, health professionals, and scientists who research the biocompatibility of dental products, including the risks of mercury fillings, fluoride, root canals, and jawbone osteonecrosis. We are a non-profit organization and have been dedicated to our mission of protecting public health and the environment since we were founded in 1984. Click here to learn more about IAOMT’s history https://iaomt.org/about-iaomt/
The IAOMT pdf file Symptoms of Elemental Mercury Vapor Exposure and Toxicity
https://files.iaomt.org/wp-content/uploads/Fact-Sheet-Mercury-Vapor-Toxicity.pdf
You may even have some of the symptoms of mercury toxicity yourself, but have not attributed them to exposure to mercury vapors.
Sandra. The IAOMT are a bunch of profiteering cranks and quacks viewed with contempt by the rest of the profession. The twaddle they espouse is laughable and their website is a heap of confirmation bias riddled with fundamental errors. Confusing calcium oxide (quicklime) with calcium hydroxide and claiming both to be non-cytotoxic (palpably and provably incorrect) is a particularly egregious example. Citing them in support of your foolish arguments will only get you laughed at.
laugh at Sandra?
come on, be serious!
Another reason why nobody takes Ernst’s blog posts seriously, still. Lenny (who wants to be taken seriously) provided a single link to an opinion piece, not a research study. True comedic relief!
References used by the IAOMT in link I shared:
Bernhoft, R. A. (2011). Mercury toxicity and treatment: a review of the literature. Journal of Environmental and Public Health, 2012.
Camisa, C., Taylor, J. S., Bernat Jr, J. R., & Helm, T. N. (1999). Contact hypersensitivity to mercury in amalgam restorations may mimic oral lichen planus. Cutis, 63(3), 189-192.
Clarkson, T. W., Magos, L., & Myers, G. J. (2003). The toxicology of mercury—current exposures and clinical manifestations. New England Journal of Medicine, 349(18), 1731-1737.
Clarkson, T.W. and Magos, L. (2006). The toxicology of mercury and its chemical compounds. Critical Reviews in Toxicology, 36(8), 609-662.
Echeverria, D., Aposhian, H. V., Woods, J. S., Heyer, N. J., Aposhian, M. M., Bittner, A. C., Mahurin, R.K. & Cianciola, M. (1998). Neurobehavioral effects from exposure to dental amalgam Hgo: new
distinctions between recent exposure and Hg body burden. The FASEB Journal, 12(11), 971-980.
Health Canada. (1996). The Safety of Dental Amalgam. Retrieved from Health Canada Web site http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/dhp-mps/alt_formats/hpfb-dgpsa/pdf/md-im/dent_amalgam-eng.pdf
Kall, J., Robertson, K., Sukel, P., Just, A. (2016a). International Academy of Oral Medicine and Toxicology (IAOMT) Position Statement against Dental Mercury Amalgam Fillings for Medical and Dental
Practitioners, Dental Students, Dental Patients, and Policy Makers. ChampionsGate, FL: IAOMT.
Kall, J., Just, A., Aschner, M. (2016b). What is the risk? Dental amalgam, mercury exposure, and human health risks throughout the lifespan (Chapter 7). Epigenetics, the Environment, and Children’s
Health across Lifespans. David J. Hollar, ed. Switzerland: Springer International Publishing, 159-206.
Klassen CD, editor. (2008). Casarette & Doull’s Toxicology (7th Edition). New York: McGraw-Hill Medical, 949.
Lorscheider, F. L., Vimy, M. J., & Summers, A. O. (1995). Mercury exposure from” silver” tooth fillings: emerging evidence questions a traditional dental paradigm. The FASEB Journal, 9(7), 504-508.
Magos, L., & Clarkson, T. W. (2006). Overview of the clinical toxicity of mercury. Annals of Clinical Biochemistry, 43(4), 257-268.
Rice, K. M., Walker, E. M., Wu, M., Gillette, C., & Blough, E. R. (2014). Environmental mercury and its toxic effects. Journal of Preventive Medicine and Public Health, 47(2), 74-83.
Richardson, G. M., Wilson, R., Allard, D., Purtill, C., Douma, S., & Graviere, J. (2011). Mercury exposure and risks from dental amalgam in the US population, post-2000. Science of the Total
Environment, 409(20), 4257-4268.
Risher JF. (2003). Elemental mercury and inorganic mercury compounds: human health aspects. Concise International Chemical Assessment Document 50. Geneva, Switzerland: Published under the joint sponsorship of the United Nations Environment Programme, the International Labour Organization, and the World Health Organization.
Rooney, J. P. (2014). The retention time of inorganic mercury in the brain—A systematic review of the evidence. Toxicology and Applied Pharmacology, 274(3), 425-435.
Rothwell, J. A., & Boyd, P. J. (2008). Amalgam dental fillings and hearing loss. International Journal of Audiology, 47(12), 770-776.
Syversen, T., & Kaur, P. (2012). The toxicology of mercury and its compounds. Journal of Trace Elements in Medicine and Biology, 26(4), 215-226.
United States Department of Labor, Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA). (02/09/1994). Hazard Communication. Publication Type: Final Rules; Fed Register #: 59:6126-6184;
Standard Number: 1910.1200; 1915.1200; 1917.28; 1918.90; 1926.59.
United States Environmental Protection Agency (USEPA). (Last updated January 15, 2016). Health effects of exposure to mercury: elemental (metallic) mercury effects. Retrieved from
https://www.epa.gov/mercury/health-effects-exposures-mercury#metallic
World Health Organization. (2005). Mercury in Health Care: Policy Paper. Geneva, Switzerland: Department of Protection of the Human Environment Water, Sanitation and Health.
Sandra, how can you question what a dentist stated: @’Lenny’ Mercury fillings are safe.
He uses it in his practice.
You are quoting research against the expertise of a DENTIST.
Get out of town.
End of discussion.
That is IN the style of EE and his cohort.
“That is IN the style of EE and his cohort.”
what a sad little comment!
my style is to show you the evidence and to discuss it [as this is hardly my area of expertise, I can, in this case, only do the latter]. here is the most recent review I found on the subject (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24575616):
Dental amalgam is a reliable and effective restorative material with a well-established role in modern dentistry. Throughout the years its mercury content and the risks posed to human health were main topics of interest for many scientists. This paper offers a review of the scientific literature on the health and environmental impact of mercury in dentistry published over the last decade. A variety of peer-reviewed, epidemiological and large-scale clinical studies on dental amalgam, as well as published reports of professional and governmental bodies, were organised thematically and analysed. The most relevant findings of the aforementioned literature are reported. No reliance has been placed on unpublished work or publicly available opinions that are not scientifically based. In order to offer an appropriate view on the topic the toxicology, health impacts and possible environmental threats are briefly presented in relation to the relevant literature published in the last ten years. It is almost unanimously accepted that dental amalgam is a safe material, with little or insignificant adverse effect on general health. However, current and mostly unfounded environmental concerns may result in the implementation of new across the board legislation that could lead to a global dental amalgam “phase out”.
Ernst’s link in favor of amalgam safety is anecdotal. My contribution is below.
Journal of Environmental and Public Health
Volume 2012 (2012), Article ID 460508, 10 pages
http://dx.doi.org/10.1155/2012/460508
“Approximately 80% of metallic mercury vapor outgassed from amalgams is absorbed through inhalation [10, 14, 15], compared with about 7 to 10% absorption of ingested metallic mercury [5], and about 1% absorption of metallic mercury through skin contact [5].
In addition to the brain [16, 19–26], metallic mercury is also deposited in the thyroid [5, 19, 21], breast [27], myocardium [28, 29], muscles [5, 21], adrenals [5], liver [5, 30–32], kidneys [5, 7, 8, 19, 20, 23, 30–32], skin [5, 7, 8], sweat glands [5], pancreas [5], enterocytes [5, 30], lungs [5, 23, 30], salivary glands [5], testes, and prostate [5] and may be associated with dysfunction of those organs. Mercury also has affinity for binding sites on the surface of T cells and for sulfhydryl groups influencing T cell function [33, 34]. Mercury deposits readily in placenta and fetal tissues and is found in breast milk. [5, 18, 31, 35]”
Based on my medical education & experience, I know that the body burden of mercury in the above mentioned organ systems can be at least one contributing factor to depression & cognitive disorders (brain), Hashimoto’s thyroiditis (thyroid), multiple sclerosis (muscles) adrenal insufficiency (Addison’s disease), cirrhosis & hepatomegaly (liver), pancreatitis (pancreatic inflammation) ; auto-immune diseases (lymphoma, Hodgkin’s disease); as well as prostate and oral cancers. Mercury from dental amalgams has also been suspect in chromosomal fetal abnormalities (Down syndrome). (http://organiceve.com/blog/pregnancy-and-mercury-amalgam/).
I have often thought that a patient’s medical and dental records should be combined. Without this academic protocol, the opportunity to evaluate any connection between the time, number of amalgam fillings, their anatomical placement and the onset of physical complaints cannot be scientifically evaluated.
a review can be rigorous or flimsy, objective or biased
BUT IT CAN NEVER BE ANECDOTAL!
Greg, your ability to draw unevidenced conclusions remains as sharp as ever. Point out where I have said that Baggie is quoting research which I am countering with clinical expertise? I haven’t. I have pointed out where the errors in her evidence lie and have asked her to provided concrete evidence of harm. Which she has failed to do. I have also pointed out with evidence that her agrammatic statement “I am as well educated about the use of dentistry and dental amalgams as you are” was hubristic in the extreme and a classic example of Dunning-Kruger. You seemed not to understand this. Would you agree that transcribing someone’s thesis and doing a couple of Google searches will give the same level of clinical expertise and the same depth of knowledge as a five year degree course and subsequent continuing professional education?
Nice Gish Gallop, Sandra. You read any of those papers? I have. Not all, but a good few. They don’t say what you would like them to say. Let’s take the bottom-line quote from the one with the clickable link, to make it nice and easy for you: “Dental amalgam contributes detectable amounts of mercury to the body, and is the largest single source of mercury exposure for average Canadians. However, this exposure is not causing illness in the general population.”
That, Sandra, is you being hoist by your own petard.
Not. Causing. Illness.
As before. Credible evidence of harm, Sandra. Not a quacks’ webpage full of cherry-picked extrapolations.
@Lenny You may be an exception, but I doubt it. Dentists are not known for their scientific research or statistical probability data analytical skills.
The supposed “Gish Gallop” I posted was a part of the Journal of Environmental and Public Health, Volume 2012 (2012), Article ID 460508, http://dx.doi.org/10.1155/2012/460508
All dentists would be wise to monitor their dental patients’ health status after their visits by keeping detailed health records. No dentist is trained to do that. For example, within a 48 hour time period, did any patients develop sinus, ocular or otological pathology, migraines, worsening of their IBS, hyper or hypotension, insomnia, cardiac palpitations, dyskinesia, the list goes on…. These pathological conditions can and have been related to Hg vapors from dental amalgam fillings.
More data…
From the United States Food & Drug Administration, Department of Health & Human Services
“Dental amalgam releases low levels of mercury vapor, with higher amounts released with
mastication and gum chewing (Ref. 3). Higher levels of exposure to elemental mercury vapor
are also associated with placement and removal of dental amalgams.
After inhalation, approximately 70-80% of a mercury vapor dose is absorbed by the lung,
enters the systemic circulation, distributes to several organ systems in varying amounts, and
excretion occurs generally via the urinary route (Ref. 70). Because of its high lipid solubility,
mercury vapor readily diffuses into erythrocytes and is oxidized by the catalase-hydrogen
peroxide complex to divalent mercuric ion (Hg 2+) (Ref. 70). Despite this rapid oxidation and
intracellular localization, a fraction of the elemental mercury dose crosses the blood-brain barrier.
Once inside cells, mercury vapor is also oxidized to mercuric ions (Hg 2+) that are unable to
diffuse back across the cell membrane (Ref. 70). The mercuric ion is believed to be the
proximate toxic species responsible for the adverse health effects of inhaled mercury vapor. The
mercuric ion has a biological half-life of two months (Ref. 69, Ref. 70).
While mercury toxicity has been demonstrated in a variety of organ systems in laboratory studies, the central nervous system (CNS) and the kidneys are both target organs sensitive to mercury vapor (Ref. 69). The first signs of mercury vapor toxicity at high doses are subtle effects on the nervous system, such as changes in nerve conduction, slight tremor, abnormalities in electroencephalography (EEG) patterns, and changes in motor functions, cognitive functions, and behavior. (Ref. 69, Ref. 70). With progressively higher exposures, these effects become more pronounced and include prominent tremor, ataxia (incoordination), memory loss, psychological distress, irritability, excitability, depression, and gingivitis (inflammation of the gums) (Refs. 69, 70).
Mercury also accumulates in the kidneys. Adverse renal effects can range from reversible proteinuria (protein in the urine) to irreversible nephrotic syndrome, depending on the degree of exposure to mercury vapor (Ref. 69, Ref. 70).“
Source: https://www.fda.gov/downloads/MedicalDevices/ProductsandMedicalProcedures/DentalProducts/DentalAmalgam/UCM174024.pdf
Dentists are not known their scientific research or statistical probability data analytical skills.
The supposed “Gish Gallop” I posted was a part of the Journal of Environmental and Public Health, Volume 2012 (2012), Article ID 460508, http://dx.doi.org/10.1155/2012/460508
In my opinion, all dentists would be wise to monitor their dental patients’ health status after their visits by keeping detailed health records. No dentist is trained to do that. For example, within a 48 hour time period, did any patients develop sinus, ocular or otological pathology, migraines, worsening of their IBS, hyper or hypotension, insomnia, cardiac palpitations, dyskinesia, the list goes on…. These pathological conditions can and have been related to Hg vapors from dental amalgam fillings.
More data…
From the United States Food & Drug Administration, Department of Health & Human Services
“Dental amalgam releases low levels of mercury vapor, with higher amounts released with
mastication and gum chewing (Ref. 3). Higher levels of exposure to elemental mercury vapor
are also associated with placement and removal of dental amalgams.
After inhalation, approximately 70-80% of a mercury vapor dose is absorbed by the lung,
enters the systemic circulation, distributes to several organ systems in varying amounts, and
excretion occurs generally via the urinary route (Ref. 70). Because of its high lipid solubility,
mercury vapor readily diffuses into erythrocytes and is oxidized by the catalase-hydrogen
peroxide complex to divalent mercuric ion (Hg 2+) (Ref. 70). Despite this rapid oxidation and
intracellular localization, a fraction of the elemental mercury dose crosses the blood-brain barrier.
Once inside cells, mercury vapor is also oxidized to mercuric ions (Hg 2+) that are unable to
diffuse back across the cell membrane (Ref. 70). The mercuric ion is believed to be the
proximate toxic species responsible for the adverse health effects of inhaled mercury vapor. The
mercuric ion has a biological half-life of two months (Ref. 69, Ref. 70).
While mercury toxicity has been demonstrated in a variety of organ systems in laboratory studies, the central nervous system (CNS) and the kidneys are both target organs sensitive to mercury vapor (Ref. 69). The first signs of mercury vapor toxicity at high doses are subtle effects on the nervous system, such as changes in nerve conduction, slight tremor, abnormalities in electroencephalography (EEG) patterns, and changes in motor functions, cognitive functions, and behavior. (Ref. 69, Ref. 70). With progressively higher exposures, these effects become more pronounced and include prominent tremor, ataxia (incoordination), memory loss, psychological distress, irritability, excitability, depression, and gingivitis (inflammation of the gums) (Refs. 69, 70).
Mercury also accumulates in the kidneys. Adverse renal effects can range from reversible proteinuria (protein in the urine) to irreversible nephrotic syndrome, depending on the degree of exposure to mercury vapor (Ref. 69, Ref. 70).“
Source: https://www.fda.gov/downloads/MedicalDevices/ProductsandMedicalProcedures/DentalProducts/DentalAmalgam/UCM174024.pdf
“Dentists are not known for their scientific research or statistical probability data analytical skills.”
Any evidence to back up the accusation? I’ve read lots of research done by dentists. I’ve seen lots of of statistical analysis. I subscribe to the journal of Evidence Based Dentistry. But being that your main exposure to dental science is The International Academy of Oral Medicine and Toxicology, you’re right. Their level of research and analysis is, as you say, lamentable.
And, as before. Show us the bodies, Sandra. The provable, demonstrable cases of harm being caused.
You haven’t been able to. You still won’t be able to.
You can’t.
I’ve got toxicologists saying it’s not harmful. I’ve got the links you’ve posted saying it’s not harmful. Carry
“Dentists are not known for their scientific research or statistical probability data analytical skills.”
This comment and her her calls here for scientific acknowledgement of her views re the perils of dental amalgam are quite interesting as they come from a person known for her anti-scientific opinions and ignorance of established scientific facts.
“Sandra”, if I am not mistaken, is the same person as the internationally notorious pro-homeopathy Tweeter @BrownBagPantry. She entitles her Twitter account “HomeopathyRocks! Skeptics not so much.” and mostly blocks those who post sensible comments and questions. She also runs a closed echo-chamber, @OnFluff for homeopaths to pamper each other’s ego’s in piece from the scathing squad of skeptics.
“Sandra” should be very grateful to the professor for allowing her endless off-topic rants on his blog. Her contributions to scientific discourse are in my log classified as GRASTI – Generally Regarded As Safe To Ignore
Although I have yet to read the study, I find it interesting that the same state of Iowa where the authors are based is home to a large community of ayurveda advocates stemming from Maharishi University. That aside, it would very troubling if the samples were obtained from commerce in the U.S. rather than directly from India after so many previous reports of unsafe levels of heavy metals in herbal products from that country.
Edzard: Looking back over the past 5 years, you surely must agree that a lot of your comments have been less than polite?
I sometimes give back in the same coinage as handed out to me; but my point was a different one:
you sated this:
You are quoting research against the expertise of a DENTIST.
Get out of town.
End of discussion.
That is IN the style of EE and his cohort.
AND I REPLIED THAT THIS IS NOT TRUE, AS I USUALLY TRY TO PROVIDE EVIDENCE.
got it?
Edzard, please use spellcheck: it is ‘stated’ not ‘sated’.
Otherwise, it makes you look silly.
Got it?
OH DEAR!!!
@Lenny, in your comment of Monday 26 March 2018 at 22:26 you wrote: “I subscribe to the journal of Evidence Based Dentistry”
Can you cite any published research from that journal regarding the safety of dental amalgam fllings?
Yep. It’s from a while back, but the journal tends to concern itself with current matters, not the confirmation of long-established clinical fact.
https://www.nature.com/articles/6400571
The clinical bottom line: “There is no significant statistical association between the changes in the neurobehavioral and neuropsychological scores considered and the exposure to amalgam restorations in children. Under conditions similar to these trials, there is no reason other than aesthetics to discard amalgam as a choice to restore posterior teeth in children.”
You’ll note that, unlike yours, my reference completely supports my position. I have also read the article. You should do the same. As previously, I’ll gladly help you with the big words.
@Lenny I read the paper. Thanks for the link.
The researchers acknowledge that “vapour of mercury is released from dental amalgam restorations and it is absorbed by the patient.”
They also state: “The follow-up period for these studies could be insufficient for two reasons: amalgam restorations generally remain in place longer than the period followed in these trials (Kaplan-Meier median survival times were 12.8 years for amalgam restorations) and the delayed effects later in life, if they exist, are unknown.”
I agree. The follow-up period is insufficient to determine whether or not there are any cumulative effects in patients as they grow older. As you know from your required anatomy and physiology courses, if there is no substantial ongoing excretion of mercury via the urinary tract or sweat glands, it is retained in the body’s soft tissue organs.
As a dentist, you also know that as a dental patient gets older, they often have many more amalgams, perhaps a root canal or two, a gold crown, even bridge work. Metallurgists have determined that combining these metals causes what is known as a galvanic reaction of dissimilar metals. In more simplistic terms, when a patient chews food or brushes their teeth, this phenomenon turns a dental patient’s mouth into a battery. The human body is not designed to use, or absorb the immense body burden of mercury, copper, zinc, & tin in dental fillings. Add a fluoride (a byproduct of aluminum manufacturing) treatment to that and the result is a total break down of a body’s defense mechanism.
I personally witnessed a case of a very bright 10 year old girl who became suicidal after having fluoride treatment followed by placement of two amalgam dental fillings. A psychiatrist was of no help. Over a year later and after the amalgams were replaced, the child recovered. There was no other consideration in the differential diagnosis.
I’m sure you will agree that auto-immune diseases are insidious in origin, develop over time and mercury from dental amalgams has rarely been suspect, up until the past few decades. Fortunately, because of environmental issues, it is inevitable that dentists will need to learn how to use the newer safer restorative materials. Even though these materials are not as easy to use, take more time to place and the profits for dentists will decrease, the crucial benefit will lie in a healthier public and environment.
An n=1 anecdote. Oh please, Sandra.
As far as full-coverage restorations are concerned – they are that. Full-coverage. The margins are on tooth substance, not previous restorations. Not only that, but the margins and the entire fitting surface of said restorations are sealed with the luting cement. A cement which is electrochemically neutral to minimise the possibility of galvanic reactions. Because we know all about them. And the last time I fitted a potentiall electrochemically active extracoronal restoration? Four years ago. Turn the page, Sandra. Dunning-Kruger, Sandra. We spent years learning about this stuff. Years and years. You have not even the faintest inkling of knowledge. I use professional terms in the above because that is what they are. They describe concepts you will not understand because your superficial learning at Google university will not give you the merest inkling of what we do, how we do it, why we do it and the biology, physics and chemistry underlying it. Am I sounding superior? Am I talking down to you? Good. Try and learn something for once.
And now it’s TEH FLOURIDEZ which are poisoning us as well?? Oh Sandra. You need to be careful. The galvanic reactions between your tinfoil hat and your earrings are obviously affecting your thought processes. Make sure they don’t touch each other.
And dentists, in case you haven’t noticed, change a lot more for tooth-coloured restorations than for amalgams. The move away from amalgam is GREAT for profits in the short term. And the long term, because composites fail sooner.
Once again. Show us the bodies. The studies showing categorical, proven harm.
You can’t. Because if you could, you would have.
I’ve shown you the studies showing otherwise. I can link to JADA pieces if you wish. And others. There’s lots. And lots.
Put up, or shut up.
Lenny: most people eat peanuts and they are fine. But, some are not.
https://acaai.org/allergies/types/food-allergies/types-food-allergy/peanut-allergy
Is it possible that a small number of people may be SENSITIVE to Mercury, and react to Mercury being placed in their mouth?
Given that the number of people that may be sensitive to Mercury is unknown, how could studies have been done to show that Mercury is harmless to the entire population? You know, how could studies have been done when it it not known that a Mercury sensitive population may exist?
Lenny, don’t you know that medical science knowledge is limited, and there is a lot that is not known? Do you know what you don’t know? Dentist that critiques homeopathy. Dunning-Kruger?
That’s an allergic reaction, Greg. Not the systemic toxicity that Sandra is claiming. Please try to keep up.
People who are sensitive to amalgam restorations display lichenoid reactions on adjacent mucosal surfaces. This is uncommon but by no means rare. I have seen it a number of times. The lichenoid reactions are asymptomatic in the vast number of cases. No systemic symptoms have been demonstrated.
Back on to homeopathy, Greg? See previous responses on previous posts from previous posters.
Lenny
According to this paper:
‘Components of amalgam may, in rare instances, cause local side effects or allergic reactions referred to as oral lichenoid lesions (OLLs). OLLs to amalgams are recognised as hypersensitivity reactions to low-level mercury exposure.’
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3409574/
Note: the use of the term: allergic
I did not use this term, I used SENSITIVE to.
Lenny, if Mercury fillings are safe, why do people develop lichenoid reactions?
An N=1 anecdote based on the post hoc fallacy, to boot!
Lenny wrote: “I can link to JADA pieces if you wish. And others. There’s lots. And lots.”
I would like that. Thanks.
Sandra – you quote this source
https://www.fda.gov/downloads/MedicalDevices/ProductsandMedicalProcedures/DentalProducts/DentalAmalgam/UCM174024.pdf
On page 55 it states:
” Based on these findings and the clinical data, FDA has concluded that exposures to mercury vapor from dental amalgam do not put individuals age six and older at risk for mercury-associated adverse health effects”
Does this represent your petard?
Mal
Sandra has very selective powers of reading and comprehension, particularly as the conclusions of papers are reached.
@Lenny, I’m still waiting to hear from you after you said, on Thursday 29 March 2018 at 00:12, “I can link to JADA pieces if you wish. And others. There’s lots. And lots.”
Sorry Sandra. I couldn’t, frankly, be bothered. You can find them for yourself you know. Put “JADA amalgam toxicity” into Google. See what comes up. As ever, feel free to ask for help with the big words.
A few articles down on that search comes the Wikipedia entry for “Dental Amalgam Controversy”. You might want to read that. I’ll link to it in case it’s too difficult for you to find. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dental_amalgam_controversy
Curiously, it doesn’t support your position.
It has some things to say about your friend Hal as well.
“Hal Huggins, a Colorado dentist (previous to having his license revoked), was a notable critic of dental amalgams and other dental therapies he believed to be harmful.[44] His views on amalgam toxicity were featured on 60 Minutes[45] and he was later criticized as a dentist, “prospecting for disease” and having only an “aura of science” by Consumer Reports.[7] In 1996, a Colorado state judge recommended that Huggins’s dental license be revoked, for tricking chronically ill patients into thinking that the true cause of their illness was mercury. Time reported the judge’s conclusion that Huggins, “diagnosed ‘mercury toxicity’ in all his patients, including some without amalgam fillings.”[46] Huggins’s license was subsequently revoked by the Colorado State Board of Dental Examiners for gross negligence and the use of unnecessary and unproven procedures.[47][48][49]”
Nice company you used to keep.
You can, of course, contend that Wikipedia is a shamelessly biased organ which is in the pay of Big Pharma and is there to suppress the truth of Alternative Therapies because it is all a huge conspiracy. You might want to mention the Illuminati and shape-shifting lizards, the Zionist overlords and the Bilderberg group as well.
It might also be that you are wrong.
Occam’s Razor applies, Sandra.
And you can Google that for yourself as well.
Lenny, I’m not surprised by your response when I asked you to link to what you said were “lots of studies” proving that amalgams are safe to use, as you bragged you easily could. You did not. You cannot. Your mention of Hal Huggins was laughable. His exposure of the dangers of amalgam use in humans then has nothing to do with more recent findings documenting the same, and worse, consequences of continued amalgam use involving dentists themselves, their staff and their patients.
In the United States, Hg is no longer permitted in thermometers, household paint and many cosmetic products. Mercury has also been banned for use in children’s, toys, games, greeting cards, holiday ornaments and candles. Those items, as well as large fluorescent light bulbs and the newer CFL light bulbs containing mercury, cannot be disposed of in any environmentally regulated landfill. https://ecochildsplay.com/2007/07/05/do-your-childrens-shoes-contain-mercury/
At the same time, dentists and dental societies want to convince the public that the only safe place to store mercury from dental amalgam is in people’s mouths. Ludicrous.
Despite the mandate that dental personnel protect themselves from mercury vapor and scrap amalgam by various mechanical (masks, amalgam separators, etc) occupational safety agencies are continuing to monitor the potential hazards to dental personnel from inhalation of mercury vapor and exposure to amalgam scrap materials.
1. Saf Health Work. 2017 Mar;8(1):1-10. doi: 10.1016/j.shaw.2016.05.007. Epub 2016 Jun 8.
A Review of Mercury Exposure and Health of Dental Personnel.
“Considerable effort has been made to address the issue of occupational health and environmental exposure to mercury. This review reports on the current literature of mercury exposure and health impacts on dental personnel. Dental personnel reported more health conditions, often involving the central nervous system, than the control groups.”
Prompted by dentist Hal Huggins’ initial work, research is ongoing.
2. Neuro Endocrinol Lett. 2014;35(7):537-52.
Evidence supporting a link between dental amalgams and chronic illness, fatigue, depression, anxiety, and suicide. Kern JK1, Geier DA1, Bjørklund G2, King PG3, Homme KG4, Haley BE5, Sykes LK3, Geier MR1.
“The purpose of this review is to examine the evidence for a relationship between mercury (Hg) exposure from dental amalgams and certain idiopathic chronic illnesses–chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS), fibromyalgia (FM), depression, anxiety, and suicide. Dental amalgam is a commonly used dental restorative material that contains approximately 50% elemental mercury (Hg0) by weight and releases Hg0 vapor. Studies have shown that chronic Hg exposure from various sources including dental amalgams is associated with numerous health complaints, including fatigue, anxiety, and depression–and these are among the main symptoms that are associated with CFS and FM.
In addition, several studies have shown that the removal of amalgams is associated with improvement in these symptoms. Although the issue of amalgam safety is still under debate, the preponderance of evidence suggests that Hg exposure from dental amalgams may cause or contribute to many chronic conditions. Thus, consideration of Hg toxicity may be central to the effective clinical investigation of many chronic illnesses, particularly those involving fatigue and depression.” Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25617876
“It seems contradictory that there should be regulations enacted for chronic inhalation exposure of mercury as enforced by the US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) [11], when another US government agency the FDA deems it safe for amalgam to be used in fillings. While this political debate rages on globally, the authors here are of the view that mercury, whether used in dentistry or industry, is still mercury.” https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0377529113000059
Where’s Lenny?
I’m here Sandra. Fear not.
“I asked you to link to what you said were “lots of studies” proving that amalgams are safe to use, as you bragged you easily could. You did not. You cannot.”
a) You’re paraphrasing, Sandra. Find your quoted “lots of studies” in my posts above. You can’t. Don’t try to put words into my mouth in your search for imaginary truths.
b) But if you mean that I can’t find JADA articles supporting my position, I can. I told you how to.
http://jada.ada.org/article/S0002-8177(14)61645-7/abstract
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S000281771560784X
http://jada.ada.org/article/S0002-8177(14)65713-5/abstract
Ooh. Look. There’s some. Ooh. Look. “You cannot” Ooh look. Yes I can. That’ll be you being wrong, Sandra. Again.
So. Let us progress further with your barrel of fish. I have my shotgun handy.
My mention of Hal Huggins was “laughable”? Why? What part of my mentioning his being a proven profiteering quack was laughable? The findings of a judge? The State Board which revoked his license? Please elaborate.
Or would that you being wrong again?
So. The use of Hg is now banned in all sorts of places. Why? Environmental concerns, Sandra. As you should know. It leaches into water supplies. Bacteria convert it to methyl mercury. Fish consume it it, concentrate it and store it. We consume the fish. Methyl mercury is a potent and cumulative toxin. It’s all in the links I supplied. It’s almost as if you didn’t read or understand any of them. Environmental concerns are why we in dentistry are moving away from amalgam. You know. Like I’ve said above. Repeatedly.
Your first paper. Let’s look at the conclusions. The bottom-line. No picking of cherries. “Although arguments have been made that the presence of urine mercury concentrations in some dental personnel explains memory disturbances and anxiety, lowered memory performance, and total retention, these symptoms could also be attributed to the effects of aging and stress”
No conclusions to be drawn. Not a great start.
The second paper is authored by a bunch of anti-amalgamists. Not exactly coming from a neutral standpoint, are they?
You continue to blather. I’ve asked you to show the bodies. To show the conclusive proof. It doesn’t exist.
How about Cochrane, Sandra? Anything there to support your position? Oooooooh..
No.
You are wrong, Sandra. Palpably, demonstrably and repeatedly so. As with you friends Benneth and Dana who turn up here from time to time and are similarly shown to be the idiots they are by people with intelligences way beyond theirs. Carry on if you wish but you are approaching the academic milkshake armed with a set of intellectual chopsticks.
Lenny commented: “I can link to JADA pieces if you wish. And others. There’s lots. And lots.”
Lenny provided three links from JADA. There were no “And others.”
Lenny, it is salient to point out that your three “pieces” were authored by a bunch of pro-amalgamists. Not exactly coming from a neutral standpoint, are they?
1. John E. Dodes, DDS. The DOI I: https://doi.org/10.14219/jada.archive.2001.0178
returns this message: “This site can’t be reached
http://www.jada.ada.org’s server IP address could not be found.”
2. Dental Amalgam and Cognitive Function in Older Women: Findings From the Nun Study
“This site can’t be reached http://www.jada.ada.org’s server IP address could not be found.”
Small sample size, 120 participants.
3. Alzheimer’s Disease, Dental Amalgam and Mercury. Small sample size, 68 patients.
For comparison, I’m providing two more studies:
Mercury toxicity (caused by amalgam mercury fillings) presenting as chronic fatigue, memory impairment and depression.
“In a group of 465 patients diagnosed as having chronic mercury toxicity (CMT), 32.3% had severe fatigue, 88.8% had memory loss, and 27.5% had depression. A significant correlation was found between chronic mercury toxicity (CMT) and the Apo-lipoprotein E4 genotype (p=0.001). An investigation into an additional 864 consecutively seen general practice patients, resulted in 30.3% having evidence consistent with chronic mercury toxicity (CMT), and once again a significant correlation was found with the APO-E4 genotype (p=0.001). Removal of amalgam mercury fillings when combined with appropriate treatment resulted in a significant symptom reduction (p<0.001) to levels reported by healthy subjects.” https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16891999
Again, from Dr. Huggins’ prior work, ongoing research has been looking for and finding reliable measures for testing the long term effects of mercury from dental amalgams.
J Alzheimers Dis. 2003 Jun;5(3):189-95.
Apolipoprotein E genotyping as a potential biomarker for mercury neurotoxicity (from dental amalgams)
“Apo-E genotyping warrants investigation as a clinically useful biomarker for those at increased risk of neuropathology, including Alzheimer's disease , when subjected to long-term mercury exposures. ”
Pro-amalgam? Nice accusation. Prove it.
Small studies. Indeed. But not that small. n>100 is reasonable.
More crap studies, Sandra. CMT diagnosed by a Hal Huggins test, was it? You know? Which he used to diagnose CMT from amalgams in patients with no amalgams? 465 patients. 864 patients. Impressive. What happened in the control groups? Oh. There weren’t any. Blinding? Oh. None of that, either. COIS? Oh, just a few.
Utter rubbish, Sandra. Laughable. Huggins was a quack. A proven quack. A fraud. A charlatan.
That next paper was from 2003. If Apo-E genotyping warranted investigation, don’t you think someone would have done so by now? They’ve had 15 years to do so. It’s almost as if there’s no subsequent supporting research. What could that possibly mean?
Yammer into the void as much as you want.
Lenny, you ignored or missed this comment:
According to this paper:
‘Components of amalgam may, in rare instances, cause local side effects or allergic reactions referred to as oral lichenoid lesions (OLLs). OLLs to amalgams are recognised as hypersensitivity reactions to low-level mercury exposure.’
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3409574/
Note: the use of the term: allergic
I did not use this term, I used SENSITIVE to.
Lenny, if Mercury fillings are safe, why do people develop lichenoid reactions?
Sandra,
Sadly Lenny seems to have faded way. Poor Lenny.
Greg, I agree. Poor Lenny. Hope he’s not ill.
Lenny said: “Pro-amalgam? Nice accusation. Prove it.”
On Tuesday 20 March 2018 at 17:21 Lenny wrote: “If fillings were poisonous, the opposite would be the case. They are safe to use, always have been, no matter how much in your deluded imaginations you and others would wish it to be otherwise.”
With a straight face, do you deny that pro- amalgam statement?
******
An additional concern for dental patients:
Biometals. 2017 Apr;30(2):277-283. doi: 10.1007/s10534-017-0004-3. Epub 2017 Feb 20.
Increased mercury emissions from modern dental amalgams.
Bengtsson UG1, Hylander LD2.
“All types of dental amalgams contain mercury, which partly is emitted as mercury vapor. All types of dental amalgams corrode after being placed in the oral cavity. Modern high copper amalgams exhibit two new traits of increased instability. Firstly, when subjected to wear/polishing, droplets rich in mercury are formed on the surface, showing that mercury is not being strongly bonded to the base or alloy metals. Secondly, high copper amalgams emit substantially larger amounts of mercury vapor than the low copper amalgams used before the 1970s. High copper amalgams has been developed with focus on mechanical strength and corrosion resistance, but has been sub-optimized in other aspects, resulting in increased instability and higher emission of mercury vapor. This has not been presented to policy makers and scientists. Both low and high copper amalgams undergo a transformation process for several years after placement, resulting in a substantial reduction in mercury content, but there exist no limit for maximum allowed emission of mercury from dental amalgams. These modern high copper amalgams are nowadays totally dominating the European, US and other markets, resulting in significant emissions of mercury, not considered when judging their suitability for dental restoration.”
***********************
Metals as a common trigger of inflammation resulting in non-specific symptoms: diagnosis and treatment.
“Patients with CFS and fibromyalgia are frequently sensitized to metals found in the environment or used in dentistry and surgery. This allergy to metals might initiate or aggravate non-specific symptoms in metal-sensitized patients.” https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25630203
My apologies, Sandra. I mis-quoted. Pro-amalgamIST. “your three “pieces” were authored by a bunch of pro-amalgamists”
Prove it.
Your first quote. Amalgams emit mercury vapour. Yep. We know. Admixed high-Cu alloys have been used for nearly 40 years. Surely long enough to prove substantive harm. Oh. No one has been able to. Oh well. You lose. Again.
Your second quote. An observational unblinded n=9 study? Oh come on, Sandra. Even Dana would be embarrassed to parade such nonsense.
Extraordinary claims you make, Sandra. And they need extraordinary proof. Or even ordinary proof. You have been unable to provide either.
I’ll not be contributing to this thread any further. You and Greg can feel free to blather to each other.
Lenny on Tuesday 20 March 2018 at 20:28 “I am not going to contribute further to this discussion.”
Lenny on Thursday 05 April 2018 at 23:56 “I’ll not be contributing to this thread any further. ”
Perhaps Lenny’s fear of reprisal by his governing dental board in the UK is a concern. If it is, I don’t blame him. The practice of dentistry is his livelihood. In the past, dentists in the United States who spoke out against the use of amalgams risked losing their license to practice. Hal Huggins was one of the first. Dr. Larry Hanus (see link), and many others, lost his dental license years ago for removing amalgam fillings based on his ethical concerns.
https://thewealthydentist.com/surveyresults/29_antiamalgamdoctor_results/
Anti-Amalgam Beliefs Cost Dentist His License (About Dr. Larry Hanus’ case)
https://www.thewealthydentist.com/blog/122/mercury-amalgam-beliefs-cost-dentist-his-license/
Some comments from the article: “How can mercury be both safe and toxic?
“More dentists should speak out. Can’t everyone see that there are two standards for mercury? It seems that the oral cavity is the only ‘safe’ place for mercury.” (Illinois dentist)
“Somebody is not telling the truth about amalgam. It’s a biohazard when on my counter but OK in my mouth.” (Pennsylvania dentist)
“Dentists can speak out all they want; what they cannot do is distort the fact that patients’ illnesses will be cured if they replace their amalgam restorations.” California dentist
The conclusions of just one review among various, are clear. Beyond few hypersensitivity cases…
.
The FDA also agrees with that. The rest of the stuff I see quoted is fear-mongering excrement, I really don’t know to what end… And spare the Big Pharma shit. Nobody’s paid to support mercury in amalgams.
You see, feces are also a health hazard, except when in your bowel.
Interesting how Sandra Courtney (for it is surely she) here joins in the irrelevant deflectionary comment as to Lenny´s whereabouts. People in comment threads who attempt to claim ´the last word´ by smearing their opponent as someone with nothing better to do and so must be hiding merely make themselves look stupid. This, the same Sandra Courtney who gleefully brays about blocking people from her Twitter account. The demonstrable liar and poltroon inept who cannot back up the guano she flecks all over the internet.
Lee,
The observation by Ernst quoted below describes your childish rant perfectly: “Ad hominem attacks are signs of victories of reason over unreason”. Published Saturday 22 December 2012 | By Edzard
“Let me briefly pick up the issue about ad hominem attacks mentioned at the end of my last post.
One of the most striking feature of the debates about alternative medicine is, in my experience, the fact that, whenever the defenders of the indefensible ran out of rational arguments, personal attacks are rarely far. Personal or ad hominem attacks are fallacious arguments directly directed at a named individual which serve as substitutes for that individual’s arguments. In football terminology, they play the player instead of the ball.”
and you don’t do personal attacks, Sandra?
@Ernst Read what I posted again. I said the rant was childish, not the person. Lee and I could have discussed the safety, or not, of amalgam dental fillings instead.
@Lee: I had nearly reached my nausea-limit trying to choke down another dose of the feces pretending to come from “Sandy’s” mouth….your pithy comments will save me the annoyance of having to engage such a twit. Thanks
@Michael kenny The discussion has been about the safety, or not, of mercury containing amalgam dental fillings. Could you comment with your opinion with regard to the topic itself instead?
Poor Lenny, all burned out now.
‘Lee Turnpenny’, ‘Edzard’ and ‘Michael kenny’ come to his aid, but to no avail.
Can’t defend dentistry, it’s no wonder he wants to focus on homeopathy.
I didn’t ‘come to his aid’. (I’m sure he doesn’t need it.) I was merely commenting on your (continuing) silly irrelevance as to his whereabouts.
Welcome to kindergarten, Mr. Lee.
Lenny,
Homeopathy might be placebo medicine, but, at least, it did not contribute to poisoning hundreds of millions of people with horrible stuff shoved in their mouth.
Oh, like I need you, Sandra Courtney, to explain the ad hominem fallacy to me… particularly as you don’t understand it.
Everything I’ve written about you is reasonable conclusion based on observation of your online activity over a period of time, much of which is reprehensible. You do bray about blocking people from your Twitter account don’t you? Your exchange as to Lenny’s whereabouts is irrelevant and childish, and exposes your hypocrisy. You’re a thoroughly dishonest debater.
Lee,
Since he is a practicing dentist, my discussion / debate was with Lenny about the safety, or not, of mercury amalgam dental fillings. Lenny has posted twice that he no longer wants to comment. I’m fine with that.
Lee, rather than creating a distraction, if you could focus on the actual debate itself, I would be happy to engage you. Do you think the mercury content in dental amalgam fillings is a health concern? If not. Why not?
the actual debate is not what you think; its about heavy metals in Ayurvedic medicines
What a cop-out statement; typical of this site when the going gets hot for the medicos.
No nooo, we don’t want to discuss conventional medicine, please! For goodness sakes, please don’t do this to us.
not ‘op-out’ at all; it is merely an attempt to bring back a discussion to its original subject.
and no, this entire blog is not about conventional medicine.
Edzard,
Indeed. Your blog post was about the use of heavy metals, including mercury, in Ayurvedic medicines. The debate between Lenny, a dentist, and myself began after I made a comparison between your concern about the risk to a patient’s health posed by the relatively small amount of mercury in Ayurvedic medicines, compared to the mercury content (up to 50%) in a single dental amalgam. Most dental patients have quite a few amalgam fillings. Lenny maintained the mercury in amalgams is safe and therefore not a health concern. I chose to counter his argument.
If you decide to blog about the safety of dental amalgams, I would like to participate in that debate as well.
Is there a debate?
Dental fillings with amalgam are safe, and there is no debate of course. The only thing left is to advise parents to avoid buying their children sweets and teach them proper dental hygiene practices.
Edzard,
The original subject of your post isn’t very clear. Some very common Ayurvedic medicines are ginger, black pepper, turmeric, basil, cardamom, triphala. So when you say “Ayurvedic medicines to die for” and talk about heavy metal contaminants, are you referring to common medicines like ginger and turmeric, mass produced formulas, or rasashastra (where heavy metals are used intentionally)?
If you’re referring to mass produced formulas, are you referring to formulas that are contaminated by heavy metals, or formulas that intentionally contain heavy metals?
Hopefully, the most common Ayurvedic medicines like black pepper and turmeric aren’t contaminated by mercury…
perhaps you ought to read more than the title of the blog
I did. Your supporting links are pretty vague, too. At least the parts I have access to.
“Ayurvedic medicines” is a pretty broad term. “Herbal formula” is less vague, but not specific enough for the subject. As you know, some Ayurvedic formulas are meant to contain minerals/metals. Some are not. Some are mass produced, some are compounded from bulk herbs by local Ayurvedic doctors.
This ( https://www.amazon.com/ORGANIC-INDIA-Triphala-Capsules-Circulation/dp/B003PGCUKO/ref=sr_1_3_s_it?s=hpc&ie=UTF8&qid=1523309582&sr=1-3&keywords=ayurvedic%2Bmedicine&th=1 ) is a pretty common Ayurvedic medicine. Have there been reports of toxic metals in triphala capsules? How about in bulk herb shipments of triphala? Is the problem in the manufacturing plant, or in the environment? Would you consider triphala a “formula”, since it’s a combo of three herbs?
“Samples of Ayurvedic formulations were analysed…” “Lead was found in 65% of 252 Ayurvedic medicine samples…”
A bit more informative, but not much. Herbal formulas compounded by a local Ayurvedic doctor? Herbal formulas mass produced? Were rasashastra formulas the ones being analysed, or non-rasashastra formulas?
Black pepper is an Ayurvedic medicine, or “traditional Indian remedy”. It’s also used in many formulas. Should diners fear putting pepper on their food? Or should they be more worried that a whole peppercorn might cause an old amalgam filling to come loose…and inadvertently swallowed?
Not surprisingly, it turns out that Ayurvedic medicines are not contaminated with toxic metals after all. The issue seems to be with a couple of manufacturing facilities in India that are mass producing formulas – not only intentionally including metals, but not doing it very well. Bulk herbs and formulas compounded by your local Ayurvedic doctor seem to be perfectly fine.
And weirdly, the first link in your “Ayurvedic medicines to die for” is to the Chopra Center – where you can buy herbs and formulas pre-packaged and have been well tested. You should have mentioned that if you’re in the market for Ayurvedic medicines, the Chopra Center is a good source.
So instead of “perhaps you ought to read more than the title of the blog”…you should have said “perhaps you ought to read more than THIS blog”. Of course, you should still avoid dislodging a mercury amalgam filling by chomping down on a whole peppercorn.
Sandra, are you too blind or stupid to read this comment? Do you not comprehend that the prevalence of amalgam fillings is so high that, if they were unsafe and releasing mercury in sufficient quantities to poison their recipients seriously, the world population would probably not amount to its presently high levels?
Frank, you are an embarrassment to yourself. How can you write so uncivilly to someone that you disagree with?
Frank: Are you not aware of levels of toxicity and the gradual onset of toxicological syndromes. From time of placement of Mercury poison in oral cavity to onset of the array of Mercury related illnesses may be months to years.
You might like to look at this to get some idea: https://academic.oup.com/toxsci/article/64/1/135/1637719
Until the cover is removed from the Mercury filling saga, it is difficult for me to know which is the worst crime imposed on humanity: the tobacco industry or the Mercury filling industry. Which caused more havoc and destruction of human health?
The gradual phasing out of Mercury filings due to ‘environmental’ concerns may mean this industry may succeed in getting away with this?
” it is difficult for me to know which is the worst crime imposed on humanity: the tobacco industry or the Mercury filling industry”
I see – lot’s of simple things seem to be difficult for you.
I wasn’t partaking in the debate. I didn’t create a distraction. I reacted to your petty irrelevance, because it reveals (not for the first time) your hypocrisy.
Lenny
20 March: ‘They are being phased out as other materials supersede them and due to the Mianamata protocol, designed to prevent environmental mercury pollution.’
‘I am not going to contribute further to this discussion. The nuances of Hg absorption and the varying toxicities of the commonly occurring organomercury compounds is pointless to discuss with someone who won’t be able to understand it.’
Edzard
21 March: ‘What is it with you Greg, why is this issue of evidence so unimportant to you?’
Lenny
28 March: ‘You’ll note that, unlike yours, my reference completely supports my position. I have also read the article. You should do the same. As previously, I’ll gladly help you with the big words.’
29 March: ‘I’ve shown you the studies showing otherwise. I can link to JADA pieces if you wish. And others. There’s lots. And lots.
Put up, or shut up.’
2 April: ‘You are wrong, Sandra. Palpably, demonstrably and repeatedly so. As with you friends Benneth and Dana who turn up here from time to time and are similarly shown to be the idiots they are by people with intelligences way beyond theirs. Carry on if you wish but you are approaching the academic milkshake armed with a set of intellectual chopsticks.’
5 April: ‘I’ll not be contributing to this thread any further. You and Greg can feel free to blather to each other.’
Edzard
9 April: ‘the actual debate is not what you think; its about heavy metals in Ayurvedic medicines’
‘Edzard’ did not point out to Lenny that he was off topic, did he. Sat back and probably thought: sock Sandra Lenny.
Then Lenny went down, had no answers: how can Mercury fillings be safe and also not safe?
Only then did ‘Edzard’ step in with his get back to the ‘actual debate’. Mercury in Ayurvedic potion versus Mercury in dental fillings given to hundreds of millions of people is the actual debate: is Mercury harmful to human beings if ingested or placed in their salivary oral cavity?
Dr Rawlins: who are the frauds now?
do I not have the right to intervene on my blog at the point I want?
In the future, will we see articles on Mercury fillings like this one on tobacco?
“The Doctors’ Choice Is America’s Choice”
The Physician in US Cigarette Advertisements, 1930–1953
Martha N. Gardner, PhD and Allan M. Brandt, PhD
https://academic.oup.com/toxsci/article/64/1/135/1637719
Greg, The dental amalgam mercury issue is much worse than tobacco use. I’m sharing a few personal testimonials from injured dental patients submitted to the FDA in 2006 when there were hearings concerning the health issues surrounding amalgam fillings. They are heart breaking to read. Fortunately, many of those people fully recovered, but many did not. I can identify with their stories, their symptoms (both mental and physical), their expenses to undo the harm. How many more will suffer and die before they make the connection between their dental work and illness? One dentist wrote in his note to the FDA that the rates of suicide and alcoholism among the dental profession was the highest of any other profession. He attributed this phenomenon to mercury exposure.
Part 1 of 3 “Correspondence from the Public to the FDA” regarding personal health nightmares, and recovery, after removal of dental amalgams
https://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/ac/06/briefing/2006-4218b1-28-section-3-PT-1-OF-3.pdf
*****************
Part 2 of 3 “Correspondence from the Public to the FDA” regarding personal health nightmares, and recovery, after removal of dental amalgams
https://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/ac/06/briefing/2006-4218b1-28-section-3-PT-2-OF-3.pdf
*****************
Part 3 of 3 “Correspondence from the Public to the FDA” regarding personal health nightmares, and recovery, after removal of dental amalgams
https://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/ac/06/briefing/2006-4218b1-28-section-3-PT-3-OF-3.pdf
testimonials????
what about evidence – evidence that matches that related to tobacco?
Sandra, dental Mercury fillings are a catastrophic disaster.
The history of the use of Mercury in medicine is a disaster.
I have to leave it here for the moment but will return.
Keep up your good work.
Dentists who have gold fillings for themselves, shamelessly fill their patients with Mercury and charge them for it.
It is good to know that someone is blowing the whistle on medical psychopaths.
you could have fooled me there as to who is the psychopath
I know you are a bit slow but you have to face up to the truth at some point.
If you can’t defend your posts, give it up.
ok, I give up – but only with you
Greg,
I appreciate your contributions to this discussion as well.
This thread on Mercury is incomplete without a mention of Calomel:
Unregulated potions still cause mercury poisoning
Larry E Davis1
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1070962/
Meanwhile the cowards on this site bury their heads in the sand and move to the next post.
Medicine has a full cabinet of medicines that could be explored here for the benefit of the vulnerable and gullible patients who trust their doctors to ‘first do no harm’.
thank you for this ad hominem – it shows that you have run out of arguments.
edzardernst.com/2012/12/ad-hominem-attacks-are-signs-of-victories-of-reason-over-unreason/
Your reply shows that you are useless at defending your medicine and arguments.
There is nothing there to “defend”…
Now this thread on Mercury is complete. Move on to the next post everybody.
Greg. Did you really read this article on Calomel poisoning?
Why do you think it is saying something about modern medicine and health care?
Bjorn, are you a ‘doctor’ or a hospital administrator?
No wonder…
So a doctor discovered that this was toxic…
…and it was banned, thanks to the contribution of real doctors.
What was the title of this post by Dr. Ernst again?
Ummm.. according to the cited source, no.
TL;DR: Unregulated potions do not make it into the cabinet of medicines. Unless one does not believe in medicine, that is…
Edzard, I’m sorry that is your position.
I was hoping that you would set out a defense for poisoning millions of people. For example: cost:overall benefit; collateral damage; etc.; defenses.
Your global audience, and poisoned people, would likely be interested to know what your view on this matter is.
Ever considered what the view of the dozens of…
with
would be on this matter?
Medicine should change its oath, in fact. It should read:
“Do no harm. Heal the vast majority of your patients. First reconcile these two […]”
Oh, and, by the way…
Considering that:
amalgam appears to be quite cost-effective.
You never answer questions Greg? Why should I answer your irrelevant question to which you very well know the answer, when you ignore every single question that has been put to you? 😉
GMC Reference Number
6086747
Given Names
Bjorn Geir
Surname
Leifsson
Gender
Man
Status
Not registered – temporary registration expired
More Details
Primary Medical Qualification
Cand Med et Chir 1983 University of Iceland (Haskola Islands laeknadeild)
Specialist Register entry date
This doctor is not on the Specialist Register
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This doctor is not on the GP Register
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This doctor is not subject to revalidation
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You really are a riot Greg!
The world is actually bigger than UK and the GMC only keeps records of those practitioners that are active in the UK. My name is in there since I had a time limited license to practice in the UK many years ago when I was teaching a colleague how to do an advanced procedure.
A while ago you were given many clear and successively simpler hints as to where you can find my credentials. It is simply unbelievable you have not been able to manage finding this information.
A link is actually in front of your nose right now.
You only need to have the mouse-pointer rest over a certain area on your screen and a link will pop up. You only need to click in this area and in the window this link leads to, you will find another (only one) link that will lead you to a very well known and popular repository of professional information. Now go and play with this for a while and see if you can solve the riddle you were unable to before.
If you still don’t get it, maybe you should be seeking professional help for cognitive impairment.
Now Greg, how about answering the question put to you:
Did you not read the article on calomel poisoning you referred to and why do you think it has anything to do with modern medicine?
Last time I asked you to provide a link to the authority that you are registered as a medical practitioner, you provided three dud links to Iceland sites that contained nothing about you or medical credentials.
My view is that you are a dishonest person. You had Mr DUllman, Robert Mathie, and John Benneth fooled and I would rather not have a discussion with you because I find it highly annoying engaging with people such as you.
in this case, perhaps you should first answer the questions put to you.
ad hominem is no answer.
This is getting absurd. I am struggling not to use harsh words.
I admit I have been playing cat to your mouse in this matter dear Greg. But you are just so stu…, eh. hilariously impervious to hints that I was tempted to prolong the fun.
The links I provided to you some time ago dear Greg, lead to official sites for directorates of health in different countries where I am a registered medical practitioner and have specialist certification in surgery and health care administration. The links were perfectly good and you can contact the authorities in these countries by using the contact forms on their webs, if you wish to check on me. Since I supplied the links, I have been employed in a senior position with one of these directorates, in the department of surveillance and incidents. I know for a fact they checked my background and integrity quite thoroughly before giving me a demanding and sensitive job 🙂
Why am I having this silly discussion with an incognito person?
I take considerable pride in partaking in these discussions under my own name. Said person has repeatedly claimed that I must be an impostor.
So that the audience here will not be misled by Greg’s silly rants, and start to doubt my honesty and integrity, let me hopefully put an end to Greg’s Monty-Python-like quest for my credentials and provide to him the final simple and easy clues to my credentials:
The link under my avatar (the picture of me to the left of my comments) leads to my public profile on LinkedIn. Just click on my face and follow the link on the page that opens. (Not the sign up button, the other one). If you doubt the information LinkedIn Greg, you can of course inform their administration. There should be contact information somewhere on their page.
In addition, you can find in my LinkedIn profile a link to my Researchgate.com listing where you can find my science oriented work. You might even note something called “Rg score” on there. My score says that I score higher than 80% of all those registered on Researchgate. That mainly means that a lot of other scientists have chosen to cite the articles I have written or worked on. That should mean that at least some of the information I provided there is bona fide, don’t you think?
Also, if you doubt my information on Researchgate you are welcome to lodge a complaint with them.
Now Greg, that your worries about me being an impostor are relieved, why don’t you go play with your homeopathy set instead of bothering the grown-ups with your incessant, irrelevant, useless comments? Just mind to dilute the remedies properly so you don’t poison anyone.
Bjorn
It is a sad situation.
It is not Homeopathy’s fault.
Edzard, you do not answer questions. It is your site and your posts that are the subject to be questioned.
You write nonsense, and then move on to new posts to avoid answering questions on your posts. Or Iqbal and James come along and load up the comments section to cover the holes you keep falling in. Or clowns like Bjorn and Frank come along to insult and annoy people. It is a circus of stupidity.
Edzard, the give away about this site is that you are supposed to be the expert ‘Professor of Complementary Medicine at the University of Exeter’ but you have not even got a weekend seminar certificate in any of the subjects of your critique.
I don’t have to answer your questions or those posed by frauds.
You write posts, visitors comment on them or ask questions. Is that simple enough for a simpleton?
“…you do not answer questions.”
I DO ANSWER QUESTION IF I HAVE TIME AND THINK THEM WORTHWHILE [there are several 100 thousand comments on this blog and I sometimes do not have time to even read them fully]
“…you are supposed to be the expert ‘Professor of Complementary Medicine at the University of Exeter’ but you have not even got a weekend seminar certificate in any of the subjects of your critique.”
IF I HAD SUCH CERTIFICATES, I WOULD CERTAINLY NO SHOW THEM OFF
“I don’t have to answer your questions or those posed by frauds.”
OF COURSE, BUT THEN DON’T COMPLAIN THAT OTHERS DON’T ANSWER YOU QUESTIONS.
DO YOU KNOW THAT EACH TIME YOU USE INSULTS YOU REALLY TELL US THAT YOU ARE AN INCOMPETENT NOBODY?
An ordinary person, yes.
Better than pretending to be an expert.
Gute nacht Dr.
DON’T TRY GERMAN, IF YOU CANNOT WRITE IT
don’t try medicine if you don’t understand it
don’t try thinking if you can’t do it
You are a clown Edzard: a novice pretending to be an expert.
You are a person with a low emotional intelligence that displays adolescent fits of temper to convey a self image of superiority.
You are fundamentally incurable.
However, this combination of attributes produces amusing writing.
Keep it up.
Interesting how, when Greg has just been snubbed once again, he starts projecting his own humiliation onto his main adversary 😀