Recently, I was asked about the ‘Dorn Method’. In alternative medicine, it sometimes seems that everyone who manages to write his family name correctly has inaugurated his very own therapy. It is therefore a tall order to aim at blogging about them all. But that’s been my goal all along, and after more than 1 000 posts, I am still far from achieving it.
So, what is the Dorn Method?
A website dedicated to it provides some first-hand information. Here are a few extracts (numbers in brackets were inserted by me and refer to my comments below):
START OF QUOTE
Developed by Dieter Dorn in the 1970’s in the South of Germany, it is now fast becoming the widest used therapy for Back Pain and many Spinal Disorders in Germany (1).
The Dorn Method ist presented under different names like Dornmethod, Dorntherapy, Dorn Spinal Therapy, Dorn-Breuss Method, Dorn-XXname-method and (should) have as ‘core’ the same basic principles.
There are many supporters of the Dorn Method (2) but also Critics (see: Dorn controversy) and because it is a free (3) Method and therefore not bound to clear defined rules and regulations, this issue will not change so quickly.
The Method is featured in numerous books and medical expositions (4), taught to medical students in some universities (5), covered by most private medical insurances (6) and more and more recognized in general (7).
However because it is fairly new and not developed by a Medical Professional it is often still considered an alternative Healing Method and it is meant to stay FREE of becoming a registered trademark, following the wish of the Founder Dieter Dorn (†2011) who did NOT execute his sole right to register this Method as the founder, this Method must become socalled Folk Medicine.
As of now only licensed Therapists, Non Medical Practitioners (in Germany called Heilpraktiker (Healing Practitioners with Government recognition) (8), Physical Therapists or Medical Doctors are authorized to practice with government license, but luckily the Dorn Method is mainly a True Self Help Method therefore all other Dorn Method Practitioners can legally help others by sharing it in this way (9).
What conditions can be treated with the Dorn Method? Every disease, even up to the psychological domain can be treated (positively influenced) unless an illness had already led to irreversible damages at organs (10). The main areas of application are: Muscle-Skeletal Disorders (incl. Back Pain, Sciatica, Scoliosis, Joint-Pain, Muscular Tensions, Migraines etc.)
END OF QUOTE
My brief comments:
- This is a gross exaggeration.
- Clearly another exaggeration.
- Not ‘free’ in the sense of costing nothing, surely!
- Yet another exaggeration.
- I very much doubt that.
- I also have difficulties believing this statement.
- I see no evidence for this.
- We have repeatedly discussed the Heilpraktiker on this blog, see for instance here, here and here.
- Sorry, but I fail to understand the meaning of this statement.
- I am always sceptical of claims of this nature.
By now, we all are keen to know what evidence there might be to suggest that the Dorn Method works. The website of the Dorn Method claims that there are 4 different strands of evidence:
START OF QUOTE
1. A new form of manual therapy and self help method which is basically unknown in conventional medicine until now, with absolutely revolutionary new knowledge. It concerns for example the manual adjustment of a difference in length of legs as a consequence of a combination of subluxation of the hip-joint (subluxation=partly luxated=misaligned) and a subluxation of the joints of sacrum (Ilio-sacral joint) and possible knee and ankle joints. The longer leg is considered the ‘problem’-leg and Not the shorter leg as believed in classical medicine and chiropractic.
2. The osteopathic knowledge that there is a connection of each vertebra and its appropriate spinal segment to certain inner organs. That means that when there are damages at these structures, disturbances of organic functions are the consequence, which again are the base for the arising of diseases.
3. The knowledge of the Chinese medicine, especially of acupuncture and meridian science that the organic functions are stirred and leveled, also among each other, via the vegetative nervous system
4. The natural-scientific knowledge of anatomy, physiology, physics, chemistry and other domains.
END OF QUOTE
One does not need to be a master in critical thinking to realise that these 4 strands amount to precisely NOTHING in terms of evidence for the Dorn Method. I therefore conducted several searches and have to report that, to the best of my knowledge, there is not a jot of evidence to suggest that the Dorm Method is more than hocus-pocus.
In case you wonder what actually happens when a patient – unaware of this lack of evidence – consults a clinician using the Dorn Method, the above website provides us with some interesting details:
START OF QUOTE
First the patients leg length is controlled and if necessary corrected in a laying position. The hip joint is brought to a (more or less) 90 degree position and the leg is then brought back to its straight position while guiding the bones back into its original place with gentle pressure.
This can be done by the patient and it is absolutely safe, easy and painless!
The treatment of Knees and Ankles should then follow with the same principals: Gentle pressure towards the Joint while moving it from a bended to a more straight position.
After the legs the pelvis is checked for misalignment and also corrected if necessary in standing position.
Followed by the lumbar vertebrae and lower thoracic columns, also while standing upright.
Then the upper thoracic vertebrae are checked, corrected if necessary, and finally the cervical vertebrae, usually in a sitting position.
The treatment often is continued by the controlling and correction of other joints like the shoulders, elbow, hands and others like the jaw or collarbone.
END OF QUOTE
Even if we disregard the poor English used throughout the text, we cannot possibly escape the conclusion that the Dorn Method is pure nonsense. So, why do some practitioners practice it?
The answer to this question is, of course, simple: There is money in it!
“Average fees for Dorn Therapy sessions range from about 40€ to 100€ or more… Average fees for Dorn Method Seminars range from about 180€ to 400€ in most developed countries for a two day basic or review or advanced training.”
SAY NO MORE!
71 Responses to The ‘Dorn Method’ – relatively new and totally bogus
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“the vegetative nervous system”
An apt choice of phrase, seeing how the average altie enjoys the CNS acuity of an elderly sack of spuds.
Excellent! More blood-pressure rising material!
I have for years sought a dialectic with “Alternative-logic” practitioners I meet (homeopathic, Chiropractic, scientologist, reflexologist, acupuncturist, Christian scientist etc etc) as to WHAT they think is/are (with their albeit limited cognitive-potential) the “real” nonsensical, unsubstantiated, lunatic “alternative-methodologies”(?).
That is if they ‘practice’ Chiropractic or homeopathy etc WHAT is the standard and criteria to which THEY use to adjudicate, deduce and/or recognize a “real” health care fraud? (Of course we all know it’s the pharmacist, MD and PhD….but admittedly it’s been a futile endeavor).
Its a pet project to do an in-depth survey of alternative-logic practitioners and find out what “things” they think are just too crazy too bear? I suspect the Dorn-method is simply an inbred sister to Chiropractic so criticism of it would hit too close to home and they’d immediately recognize they’d be dropping a grenade in their own pants. I figure that’s why nut-jobs tend to stick together…and make “science & logic” the real enemies.
“Logic is the devils’ whore” as a bishop of Canterbury famously opined.
Hi,
The methodology is scientiific. I guess the science is not followed.
About diabetic – our habits are our killer. Unless you are a type 1.
Please read it in absolute before making calculated comments.
Thanks
Your critic is appreciated and I agree that statements about The Dorn Method are often controversal and not proven by socalled official studies or better eductated specialist with impressive titles like MD, PhD, FMedSci, FRSB, FRCP, FRCPEd. Did you ever personally experienced a Dorn session? I am a poor self help coach with poor english skills but I am open for critics, willing to learn but with the right to share my opinion and if this creates reactions like yours a discussion can start and may lead to more experience that others can benefit from. If you have not yet experience DORN I invite you to do that with me before giving judgements based on words. If you still think the same after I am willing to re-write all content with your help.
i do not make judgements ‘based on words’ nor on personal experience. I prefer those on evidence.
perhaps you should read this: edzardernst.com/2012/11/what-is-and-what-isnt-clinical-evidence-and-why-is-the-distinction-important/
I understand and value your opinion. I wish that independent studies, the way you suggest, are done on DORN to show evidence for or against but unfortunately there seems to be no interest investing into this and it would be very difficult to gain evidence from such studies as all patient are different and practitioners that treat patients can never do things exact the same way but I still would support such motions. I see DORN as a self help method and not as therapy and maybe I use lots of easy to misunderstand explanations that require improvements. The main message behind DORN: We should focus on getting the whole system (physical, non physical) into the best possible balance first and therefore establish a foundation for self-healing. All additional help from therapies, medication or medical procedures that promotes healing should be integrated. Your work is valuable and critics necessary I only wish for a more open mind without negative comments to approaches that does not harm people like DORN (unless there are studies that prove this). Everybody has the right to make their own experiences and some of your words (like “totally bogus”) does not encourage to make these but creates fear. Is this what you want?
as no studies exist, we can only conclude that the method is unproven; and no therapeutic claims should be made for unproven methods!
[“all patient are different and practitioners that treat patients can never do things exact the same way but I still would support such motions”; that does not prevent clinical trials from being conducted]
@Thomas Zudrell
“I wish that independent studies, the way you suggest, are done on DORN to show evidence for or against but unfortunately there seems to be no interest investing into this.” Don’t you think that independent studies should be done before anyone makes claims or takes money for a “wholistic [sic], effective, safe and Non-manipulative therapy to correct misalignments in the spine and joints”?
How would you react to someone who comes along with a whole new, simple way to beat the stock market; and wants to sell you their book on the method?
“We should focus on getting the whole system (physical, non physical) into the best possible balance first and therefore establish a foundation for self-healing.” What is the “best possible balance”? Are you better balanced after a good night’s sleep or after a day’s hard work? Are you better balanced on Mondays than on Wednesdays? Do you not have any clue what a vacuous, meaningless statement it is to talk about ‘balance’ in the body (unless someone’s suffering from a middle ear problem)?
“Everybody has the right to make their own experiences.” That’s fine, but someone’s ‘own experiences’ are no substitute for objective evidence; otherwise we’d all believe in ghosts, clairvoyance, psychokinesis, astrology and a flat earth, to name but a few items in the tip of the iceberg of superstitious delusion. has has already pointed out: the burden of proof lies with the maker of the claim. (Thanks to has’s pseudonym for giving me the opportunity to begin a sentence with the words ‘has has’ without an initial capital letter!)
I totally support Thomas’ here. He was very helpful to me when my daughter had levoscoliosis at age 6 and Thomas was still here in our country, the Phillipines then. I bought his book and studied it and continued the first session of my daughter with one of Thomas’ trained therapist, Lourdes and Jay, at home.
My daughter’s back pain has long disappeared and her back is normal. She is now 20 and very happy young lady.
I have been promoting Dorn to my friends. Just the other day, a friend with a “straight back” since a kid due to an accident, I referred him to. Also use my VCO w/ 30+ herb extracts. I’ll know results soon after.
Yes, an independent study can be performed and testimonies from many many happy recipients of The Dorn Method be heard as well.
Thomas is a very nice gentleman…very thoughtful and accommodating. I treasure his book as it’s become scarce in local bookstores of late.
Results are powerful evidences of this healing procedure. Cheers to you, Thomas and your family there!
You have a terribly broken understanding† of Burden of Proof and where it lies. Why don’t you go fix that first, and then get back to us?
(†SOP for altmed peddlers and their apologists, unsurprisingly.)
@TZ: I estimate there are 35 “well accepted” Chiropractic ‘techniques’…many named for their inventor or main proponent. In PT there are an equal number (they regularly come & go based on current trends and the motivation of a bold entrepreneur…..virtually NEVER driven by well done, ad hoc research).
So within structured, college-based, government sanctioned and insurance-covered professions there are still innumerable tentacles of (mostly) un-proven, unresearched, guru driven hyperbolic-methods with their dogmatic and motivated devotees (and of course ALL claim to fix “80%”….funny how that sounds impressive until one recognizes 95% of symptoms go away on their own).
And ALL claim “proof-by-testimonial” and invent spurious mechanisms of action.
The Dorn-method is just one more testimony-driven, pseudo-structural, pseudo-neurologic, entrepreneurial claim jumper.
So get in line you have A LOT of competition…
Very well said sir
Thanks for all the comments I surely will re-think the words we use in our socalled unproven claims but I will not stop to help people that come and ask for help and I will not tell them that I cannot treat them because what I do is totally bogus and there is no prove (evidence) that DORN does any good. I really like people and feel happy to be asked for help you gentlemen seemy to be more interested in creating doubts and fear how sad is that. I may think of leaving my church (religion) also because the is no proven evidence based on real studies that god exists. Why does this all make you so reactive?. PR managers would love this I guess. What are you afraid of? I helped thousands and most without payment so did Dieter Dorn.
“What are you afraid of?”
Dead people. Crippled people. Lots and lots of dead and crippled people. Something True Believers are frighteningly good at creating, without so much as a second thought, all because their unproven unchallenged religious belief system tells them that they are Right and therefore anyone who says otherwise is Wrong.
Your claim that you “helped” others often “without payment” is laughable on two fronts: 1. Where is the objective evidence that your actions produce more positive outcomes than neutral/negative ones; and 2. everyone here knows True Believers are as often motivated by the enormous ego stroke and sense of power it provides them as by cold hard allopathic cash.
Now, nobody here has a problem with people being rewarded for doing genuinely good work, so where’s all your homework that shows that you have? Don’t just assert your conclusion and declare it correct, because that’s not how burden of proof works: show us all your workings that explain how you arrived at that answer and not any other.
“Evidence or GTFO”, as they say in Science.
So let’s turn it about, and start with an easy one first: Why are you so frightened to doubt your own unquestioned beliefs and motives? Sure you probably do believe that you’re helping, but when was the last time you stopped to ask yourself “But what if I’m not?” Hell, Florence Nightingale asked herself this question a hundred and fifty years ago, knee deep in pain and blood, and completely invented statistical maths just so she could calculate the answer correctly.
Now what have you done to test your own beliefs, prejudices, and assumptions recently?
“Dead people. Crippled people” There is no law to report such things done by manual techniques to a governments institution for statistics.
Therefore there is no good statistics to support such sentences mentioned above either.
Everybody knows that such things are reported from high velocity low amplitude manipulations to the spine and from visceral manipulation and therefore it is necessary to put manual therapies under the same regulations as adverse drug reactions have to be reported to a governments institution for statistics.
Dorn therapy doesn’t use high velocity low amplitude manipulations like chiropractic or manual odteopathic treatment so in my opinion there are no higher risks like in medical massage therapy.
Dorn therapy originally was created on the country side to treat some minor functional disorders of the movement apparatus by your own. Dorn took over this and sold it under his name and now it is a whole system with posthum added istromechanistic and vitalistic explanations coming from everywhere out of alternative treatments.
I totally concur with Thomas here! He has helped many many Filipinos who had back problems and other ailments with The Dorn Method.
You guys can continue what you do best but we here will continue to patronize The Dorn Method and live a healthier life…with or without that study or whatever you guys ask for…it’s all yakyak for me…hahahaha
Sorry to say but we already discussed the unbelievable effect of the “physicum” (the physicians training in natural sciences) and why it leads millions of physicians to do homeopathy chiropractic bioresonance European/Commonwealth manual osteopathy
Dorn method and thousands of other alternative methods and I mean it’s an illusion to change this because nobody is interested to change the physician’s study programs and the health insurances pay the physicians to practice this…
There is no training in functional disorders of the movement apparatus in a physicians training and no department in medicine for the whole movement apparatus.
The movement apparatus is divided into orthopedic surgery neurology rheumatology a.s.o.
Therefore a lot of alternative methods depending on iatromechanic and vitalistic explanations take over this field.
Related to the Dorn method I found this physician and explanation in the internet and isn’t it just an example for what I said?
http://www.hoesle.ch/naturheilverfahren/wirbelsaeulentherapie
http://www.personal-healthcare.ch/media/files/Beschrieb_DornMethode.pdf
HI i just want to add my experience of Dorn therapy, last year i was in excruciating pain with my back, my G.P done all he possibly could for me but that only went as far as giving me painkillers, anti inflamatory’s, etc.
I was told by several people about this gentleman who is amazing and has helped them with their numerous back problems, i was born a skeptic and dont believe in faith healers and the like but i was assured this wasnt like that so i thought id give it a try as i was in agony.
Now the treatment wasnt free, but it was certainly worth every penny i walked in bent over wincing and came out standing straight and didnt need another session or the usual come back every week for six weeks, i was given a simple exercise to do before bed.
Now i cant speak for any other Dorn practicianer other than the man i saw but i can say he was VERY effective at taking away my pain and making me walk and work again, i have a smallfarm and furniture shop so im constantly bending and lifting with.
Like i said this is my experience and i thought id share it, thanks.
I am afraid that your case tells us little about the effectiveness of this therapy. we cannot possibly know whether you would have improved less, more, or in a similar way, if you had not received any treatment at all. this is why, one needs clinical trials for such judgements.
I recommend the Dorn Method all the time – have found it to be 100% effective!
Thanks for the testimonial, Karen. Would you mind taking the time to tell us for which condition(s) you have found it to be 100% effective and how you went about assessing its efficacy?
@Karen: so happy someone else besides me has found the Dorn Method to be “100% effective”! I was beginning to think I was the only one having this delusion!
We are talking about “Reverend Billy Bob Dorn’s Method” for correcting pelvic misalignments, constipation, devil-possession and acne….correct? Cause that other guy, Dieter Dorn is a total fraud. I wouldn’t want to get the two confused.
Dorn Method is a self Help Exercise or Self help Method, Happy to see people showing interest towards Dorn Method either an appreciation or criticism, People asks for evidences, unfortunately none of the studies in the world towards any modality has concluded with a proper evidence
what you say is just not true
As a manual therapy to improve spinal-alignment and postural mis-alignments the Dorn Method works absolute wonders. The negative comments on this web-site is totally unfounded. As I am sure that Edzard has never even experienced a single treatment.
Just because it is not scientifically proven, doesn’t mean that there is no benefit in it. And as for charging for the treatment, how biased are you really, because I am sure you charge(or have charged)for your time spend with clients.
Dorn practitioners spend atleast 30min to an hour with a client for much less money than a whole lot of other practitioner do.
For me the proof is in the pudding. Helping people to have a better quality of life, with less pain with absolute minimal chance of hurting them certainly is a therapy that is worth it.
“Just because it is not scientifically proven, doesn’t mean that there is no benefit in it.”
VERY TRUE!
But it means the method is unproven – and responsible clinicians tend to rely on proven therapies; and ethical clinicians inform their patients about the unproven nature of the therapies, if they do use them nevertheless.
The same old tropes…
I have had 2 therapy sessions and have come out pain -free, although my pain started to gradually return approximately 2 weeks later. I found the treatments, particularly the last one – extremely painful. I have fibromyalgia , and so I am back to looking for another kind of therapy to help with my condition…
What other proof are you looking for if someone enters a Dorn method pradtioner`s office in terrible pain and came out
pain free. The only thing needed is proper clinical studies in order to be accepted in the medical community. But since it is heiping countless people with their back pains without any untoward effects no body has the right to stop this practice. Those who creticise this method…those with formal medical training.. maybe envious for the this method was developed by a lowly sawmill owner without any medical knowledge
https://edzardernst.com/2012/11/what-is-and-what-isnt-clinical-evidence-and-why-is-the-distinction-important/
Mr Edzard, I can give you some truth and proven cases. Two cases in the medical press in 2018. Qualified surgeons have been inserting specialised netting into patient’s spines. It is widespread. Patients are reporting extreme pain and have to undergo surgery to remove this netting. The other case is where a form of synthetic disc is inserted to replace a damaged disc in the spine. The synthetic discs are crumbling now and have to be removed by surgery. Under normal circumstances these surgeons would be prosecuted and jailed. However, doctors are protected by disclaimers. No wonder that people seek alternative treatments. The clinical proof you need is the patient’s condition after treatment. Even if Dorn is just a placebo apparently it can offer much better results than modern medical procedures.
If you are so convinced that proven medical methods with clinical trials are the only way, then stop insisting on disclaimers. Take the responsibility if treatment goes wrong and pay patients compensation out of your own bank account.
1) my last name is Ernst;
2) your ‘truth’ is not an objective truth;
3) cases are not evidence;
4) your final paragraph does not make even the slightest sense.
I had problems with my back cause I regulary sat behind the desk for hours in a bad position. I could not even stand straight no matter how hard I tried. So I tried the dorn therapy and it helped. The doc put bulbs on my back and managed to align my verbetrae. All of sudden it was no problem to stand straight for me. It was very natural and my back felt good once again. I found out every verbetrae to be aligned while before they were somewhat twisted. I could say that by touching them b4 and after the therapy. I attented few doctors but they never helped me in any way. The thing is classical medcine judge by “evidence” and not by results. However this approach is wrong. For instance people with diabetes were locked in asylums because “there was no evidence they were sick” and this shit continues up today in different cases. The dorn method is fast and effective so no wonder it is not wanted. There is a lot of money invested in pharma and classical medcine approach.
” The thing is classical medcine judge by “evidence” and not by results.”
you just one the prize for the best BS of the month!
How is that bs? I could give you many examples of this. Cancer is treated by chemotherapy and surgery based on evidence that it kills it. Unfortunately the treatment destroys patients too. The end result is mostly tragic, deaths far worse than death from the disease or shitty life after the treatment. And let’s not forget wrong diagnoses and botched operations. I’ve seen all of it. I’ve also seen ppl who cured cancer by food but ofc the end result does not mean shit for experts because there is no direct evidence that it is the food that cured the people. They’d rather suggest shitty treatment. The same story all over again. They cant find “evidence” so they deny it, falsify reports to fit their story, etc.
Charlie
You hit the nail on the head. The third leading cause of death in the US is from doctor errors…. yes, the medical community. The smart-arse folks here don’t want to consider those “facts”. You see, doctors are licensed to kill. But if a homeopath kills somebody it’s big news, they’ll dwell on that for days and months.
https://hub.jhu.edu/2016/05/03/medical-errors-third-leading-cause-of-death/
https://nutritionfacts.org/2017/09/21/how-doctors-responded-to-being-named-a-leading-killer/
https://www.npr.org/2011/09/27/140849083/prescription-drug-deaths-major-killer-in-the-u-s
https://www.bmj.com/content/353/bmj.i2139
https://www.bmj.com/content/353/bmj.i2139
I think you get the idea
Edzard – you do not “one” a prize, you win or you won a prize. I am seeing a DORN therapist next week…….
Shame to everyone who has had to reply to this conceited fellow called Edzard. Shame to me as well for needing to write and reply to his Ego trips. Goodness gracious, Really…. Where does he come from? the world that is still screwing us and giving us partially true “scientifically proven” information.
are you ok?
taken the wrong pill?
or just plain bonkers?
Rather than denying its effectiveness because there is no evidence, why aren’t there studies to prove or disprove? Does it work on everyone? No! My husband and I were treated by the same person. My husband felt worse, but I felt much better and pain-free without being jerked around like in a chiropractic treatment.
those who make a claim have the duty to deliver evidence for that claim; if not, the claim is bogus.
Hi. So I have just come across the Dorn Method and found this site.
Question, you speak against this method but I can’t see any scientific evidence to back up your claim. Have I missed something in your post? All I read is your opinion and no offense, you just sound like a grumpy old man who hates anything new. I just don’t see any weight in your article as to why this is bogus. Please do shed some light with evidence.
the grumpy old man’s opinion is that proponents of treatment X must have evidence to back up their claims.
I only point out that the therapy is not supported by evidence which means it is bogus.
But where is you evidence of test that have disprove this?
in healthcare we rely on positive evidence; those who make a claim have to provide the evidence.
When I was a medical student I met a man who assured me that the most effective way to prevent gout was to sleep with a potato in the bed. I have no evidence to disprove this. Do you think I should accept it and recommend sleeping with a potato to my own patients?
The alternative to simply rejecting the idea would be to design a clinical trial, perhaps looking for quantitative effects with different sizes of potato, and maybe different varieties. Of course I would need to get funding, persuade my colleagues to refer me patients, and indeed get it passed by the local Ethics Committee.
Or maybe I should just prescribe allopurinol, which at least has some evidence in favour of it, as well as an established mode of action.
“is not supported by evidence which means it is bogus” – stunning logic, I must say, very scientific!! I’d like to see how you get that statement past a judge. I smell the sickly perfume of big pharma financing to pad out your pension, the irony being that the behind-the-scenes truth of the pharma industry is to achieve the “scientific evidence” of their clinical trials by paying toxicologists huge fees to, pardon the pun, “doctor” the results. Shame you didn’t become one, you’d have saved yourself the hassle of this embarrassing website. I have a degree in German and lived there for over 20 years so I notice that you are using poor translations of the German to manipulate meanings to suit your arguments.
Your approach reminds me of the Spanish Inquisition. Maybe you really believe your mission, but think how we view zealots now – poorly educated, small minds. This is not an honourable way of using your qualifications. I am sorry you have been humiliated in life, try to forgive and move on, it will help you to die more peacefully.
I have had a lot of Dorn treatments over many years, they are the ONLY treatment which enables me a virtually pain free life after surgery by a Professor Dr. Dr. caused me severe scoliosis. A lot of private health insurances pay for the treatments in Germany and they are viewed as a successful and useful treatment method among the general public, even if they are not “scientifically proven”. Which doesn’t necessary prove the whole truth either.
” Or maybe I should just prescribe allopurinol, which at least has some evidence in favour of it, as well as an established mode of action.”
Or…. perhaps patients that suffer from gout should make a lifestyle change that wouldn’t require them to treat gout with a toxin, but eliminate it.
Get off the damn meds.
I don’t know any doctor who would not give his patient with gout a stern lecture about the importance of lifestyle improvement. Perhaps RG’s village doctor is one? There are thick chapters on lifestyle and gout in standard medical textbooks. Perhaps we should give our friend “RG” a subscription to UpToDate.com so she can start learning some reality before waffling on here about what she read on mercola, WDDTY and naturalnews.
I’m an oncologist and my main concern with gout is when starting chemotherapy for bulky but highly chemosensitive tumours (lymphoma, metastatic testicular cancer etc.). The rapid death of a large number of cancer cells leads to a sharp rise in serum urate and the risk of acute kidney injury from gout. Unfortunately there is little that changes in lifestyle can do in this situation, but allopurinol can reduce the risk.
Bjorn
So the licensed to kill MD’s automatically are presumed by you to do the “right thing”, while CAM physicians or homeopaths are presumed stupid, and guilty or malpractice. How convenient Bjorn.
What makes you think MD’s are so pure ? Forget the subscription to the propaganda, and just do some googling and get the real news.
I SEE!
that explains a lot!!!
you think by googling, you find the ‘real news’ about medicine.
here is my advice: read a few serious textbooks
I feel sorry for her psychiatrist.
Somewhere out there, is a harrowed psychiatrist with an impossible task.
Seems like I somehow failed to delete the first comment. 😀
MD’s might read textbooks in medical school. After they complete their education, they are further trained by the pharmaceutical industry, and yes that explains allot also. In fact, that’s all I need to know.
So If I ever get a hankering to be indoctrinated by the (bogus) AMA, I’l read some textbooks, thanks.
“In fact, that’s all I need to know.”
yes, don’t we know – but thanks for confirming your ignorance.
https://daneshyari.com/article/preview/5035693.pdf
Bjorn
When all else fails… change the narrative.
I am not expecting you to grasp the meaning of the article I referred to, it is intended for those who like me are deeply offended by your pathologic narrative.
“You see, doctors are licensed to kill. ”
“…the licensed to kill MD’s…”
etc…
This entire website blog is designed to troll homeopathic and CAM patients and practitioners. You refer to me as a troll ? … please. You and your buddies here are the trolls.
I’ve yet to witness any homeopaths to have changed their thinking due to this blog, just a bunch of folks with differing opinions, bickering in cyberspace.
“I’ve yet to witness any homeopaths to have changed their thinking due to this blog”
could of course be because you cannot tolerate smart people – or is it that they cannot tolerate you?
Bjorn,
Pardon my skepticism, but I doubt the sincerity of your “… those who like me are deeply offended by your pathologic narrative” comment. You’re pretty liberal with your descriptions of other professions (my favorite is still “belly fondler”), so it’s unlikely that your skin is so thin as to take offense to “…the licensed to kill MD’s…”.
Not as cutesy as “belly fondler”…but everyone’s gotta start somewhere.
We already know you don’t like people who are smarter than you, “jm”. Come again when you have something to contribute to the discussion.
And I’m quite fond of you, Bjorn ;). Even though you claim to have a license to kill. (still not convinced, though)
You know, the “license to kill” thing is growing on me…
Do you really think talking about cutesy names for health professions is detracting from this discussion?
Note to self: Stop feeding the trolls!
00Bjorn,
Another option would be: quit pretending to have your feelings hurt when someone like RG plays your game of cutesy nicknames. Oh, the drama.
Just a thought.
That doesn’t sound like any sort of medical training that I have come across. But then I have never worked in the USA, which has a very strange approach to healthcare compared to the rest of the world. My opinions are based on my own experience as a doctor in the UK.
Medical textbooks are useful for learning the principles of anatomy etc. but for many subjects they aren’t up to date, and so teaching at medical school is mainly in the form of lectures, tutorials and ward rounds with practising doctors. Even for the pre-clinical stage of training they were of limited use.
On completion of medical school newly qualified doctors are deemed safe enough to be put in charge of real patients, and here is where learning really begins. It is largely an apprenticeship, and the first year or so is a kind of crash course in managing real patients. Then once the young doctor has decided which career path to follow they embark upon specialist training, with particular experience required in recognised training posts, courses and lectures, under the supervision of a governing body (such as the Royal College of Radiologists) and with plenty of exams on the way. Many of them take a couple of years out to do some lab-based research in order to experience first-hand the world of the medical scientist, which builds useful skills in assessing and understanding research thereafter.
Finally, in a career post as a specialist or GP, learning never stops, but this time it takes the form of reading the literature, regular academic meetings within the hospital (or wherever), discussion with more experienced colleagues, national and international scientific meetings and symposia, and further more advanced courses. Some of the meetings are sponsored by drug companies etc. but they have little say in the content. When I first became a consultant there were also freebies where a drug company would take you somewhere nice for the weekend in order to increase exposure to their latest products or to make you aware of recent research supporting their use, but these have long been banned in the UK (and I think in Europe).
Clinical practice and management of patients is never the province of the sole practitioner, who can easily stray onto their own maverick path. Multidisciplinary teams are involved in many treatment decisions, and local and national guidelines are regularly updated, based on an overview of the evidence that no single doctor is in a position to accrue.
I’m not sure why you think the pharmaceutical industry has much input into this process. It doesn’t even carry out most medical research, which tends to be through academic institutions and is sponsored by the State and by charities.
Doc
I could list many many links to articles that attest to the fact that MD’s & Pharma are joined at the hip (perhaps more literally at the wallet). I won’t waste your time or mine listing all of them. Do some online searches if you care to know.
I’ll give you this link, since it’s from a source that you will be more likely to accept.
https://www.bmj.com/content/336/7641/416/rapid-responses
Actually, many articles I have read suggest that Big Pharma is not only influencing MD’s, but also highly influencing the education of medical students while at the University. You might hear that these practices have been banned. Yes, in theory halted by Big Pharma, only to promote new and less easily monitored means of pharma rewarding MD’s. Do no assume that it stopped because a law was made ? No, there is far too much money at stake.
Doc, you said;
“I’m not sure why you think the pharmaceutical industry has much input into this process. It doesn’t even carry out most medical research”
I don’t disagree with that statement. Why would the pharma industry waste money on medical research when others are already doing it. Big Pharma is more concerned with creating drug trials that they can meet the endpoint, and get an approvable letter from the relevant authority. Cha-Ching !
BTW Doc
If sounds to me like the method in the UK to become a MD is probably not that different than the USA, and in some respects, that’s not a great thing. I always hated the term “practice” when referring to doctors. However, I do like the idea of doctors team based care to decide the proper coarse of action and carry it out. In theory, we have it here in the US, but I don’t think to the level it’s practiced in the UK.
HOW Would you personally set up a clinical based trial?
When there are such variables? anatomicaly psychologically physiological differences practitioner variables if more than one practitioner for a decent cohort study and statistical analysis. ?
1) formulate a relevant research question
2) study the already available literature
3) find the optimal design
4) run a pilot
5) tweek my design
6)conduct the study