Much has been written on this blog about progress in the area of chiropractic practice and research. But where is the evidence for progress? I did a little search and one of the first sites I stumbled across was this one which is full to bursting with bogus claims. This cannot be what chiropractors call ‘progress’, I thought.
Determined to find real progress, I continued searching and found THE FOUNDATION FOR CHIROPRACTIC PROGRESS. Great, I thought, an organisation and a website entirely devoted to the very subject I was looking for. Consequently, I studied the information provided here in some detail. What follows are excerpts from the site:
Chiropractic care is a health option that has proven beneficial for a multitude of health conditions, along with in the practice of achieving optimal wellness. It is essential for those unaware of chiropractic care to be adequately informed, so they too can experience the benefits that over 60,000 practicing doctors of chiropractic in the U.S. provide to their patients daily. Established in 2003, the not-for-profit Foundation for Chiropractic Progress (F4CP) aims to educate the public about the many benefits associated with chiropractic care.On behalf of the F4CP, I invite you to tour this site and learn more about this effective form of treatment.
Kind regards,
Kent Greenawalt
Chairman | Foundation for Chiropractic Progress
THIS WAS A STRANGE INTRODUCTION, I THOUGHT; BUT UNDETERRED I READ ON:
Parents of Colicky Infants Turn to Chiropractic Care
For those parents who never imagined their ailing babies and toddlers could be helped by chiropractic care, it may be time for some rethinking.New mom Jean, a 31-year-old speech therapist from New Jersey, became an advocate after enlisting the help of her own chiropractor to treat her colicky infant girl, Emma. After having had what she says was “no luck” with the usual ways of alleviating colic symptoms – including giving Emma children’s probiotics daily – one appointment with board-certified in chiropractic pediatrics Dr. Lora Tanis produced an immediate difference.
Concussions Among Athletes
A concussion is a type of traumatic brain injury caused by a bump, blow or jolt to the head that can change the way the brain functions. Symptoms include dizziness, instability and confusion.
Using methods that rely on brain-based, non-invasive, drugfree approaches — like chiropractic
care and physical rehab — can help re-establish balance and maximal brain and nervous system functionality.
News of Health – Improving Military Health Care
Retired U.S. Army Brigadier General Becky Halstead—the first woman in U.S. history to command in combat at the strategic level—is speaking out on the value of chiropractic care for the nation’s military men and women.
Good Health
With the epidemic now estimated to be costing the nation $147 billion annually, it’s a question that’s very much on the minds of health experts. And many, including lifestyle guru Shea Vaughn, are citing chiropractic care as a crucial part of overall wellness programs.
FEELING A LITTLE DISAPPOINTED, I STOPPED READING AND THOUGHT
PROGRESS INDEED !!!
73 Responses to …and this is what chiropractors call ‘progress’ ?
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Edzard,
You have much higher hopes than me of chiropractic ever doing any self-examination and questioning the basics of what is, essentially, a religion. As you know, chiropractic was invented by a fraudster for the purpose of selling something, whether it be treatments or how to preach from the pulpit of chiropractic.
Under any observation, chiropractic is in the same boat as scientology, homeopathy, naturopathy and all of the other bullshit pseudo-sciences. They shy away from research because that will kill their livelihood and religion. They are the same as any other cult, and will attack anyone who questions them.
I, for one, would like to see chiropractic extinguished from this planet; it is a drain on money that should be going towards real medicine, not propping up long debunked nonsense.
You may extinguish chiropractic but as long as we have spines, there will also be the ‘art of manipulation’ in a different guise. Unfortunately the scientific community have gone the ‘drug’ route which does absolutely zilch for persistent back ache so the chiros are the only hope of anybody getting any kind of relief. May they long continue and prosper in spite of attacks from the medical community who would all have us popping pills from cradle to grave.
Excellent point, Martin. Of course the medical community would never dream of referring a patient to a physiotherapist, or immobilizing a joint, or setting a limb in plaster. Surgery is never considered as a means to cure a disease. Popping pills is, indeed, the entirety of medical science and practice.
I feel so sorry for trauma casualties when doctors and paramedics appear on the scene and immediately force unconscious victims to swallow those well-known pills for establishing airways, arresting bleeding and cardiopulmonary resuscitation. If only they’d have the sense instead to stick in a few acupuncture needles, place a couple of ear candles, swing a pendulum to discover where they’re worst hurt and induce the patient to swallow some sugar pills.
Then there is the other side to the drug industry delved into by Goldacre: “Warning: The pharmaceutical industry has serious side effects. These include: flawed clinical trials followed by the suppression of unfavourable results, poor regulation, diseases invented purely for profit, swollen marketing budgets, doctors and academics in the pay of pill manufacturers.” Ben Goldacre
“..the drugs industry, always quick to spot a marketing opportunity, has formulated an “anti-shopping drug”, which is now being prescribed by doctors in Britain. side effects reported: loss of libido, panic attacks, feeling sick” uk press
@martin
“You may extinguish chiropractic but as long as we have spines, there will also be the ‘art of manipulation’ in a different guise.”
One of the few “skills” chiropractors seem to employ efficiently is the manipulation of dollars out of pockets, all without research evidence that it actually works.
“Doctors and patients need good scientific evidence to make informed decisions. But instead, companies run bad trials on their own drugs, which distort and exaggerate the benefits by design. When these trials produce unflattering results, the data is simply buried. All of this is perfectly legal. In fact, even government regulators withhold vitally important data from the people who need it most. Doctors and patient groups have stood by too, and failed to protect us. Instead, they take money and favours, in a world so fractured that medics and nurses are now educated by the drugs industry.
The result: patients are harmed in huge numbers.” Ben Goldacre – Bad Pharma (Amazon)
@martin
So writes the Wellcome Research Fellow.
Are you suggesting that NO good comes from drug companies and drug research? Is the Dermaid I use on my hands when they break out in a painful rash from an excessively alkaline or acidic environment undermined by your quote?
Or, more likely, are you quoting out of context in order to cast aspersions on all drug companies and their products?
You very incorrectly, and disingenuously, imply that Goldacre (a physician) disdains pharmaceuticals–he does not. Science has the sense to try to clean up it’s own backyard–unlike CAM
Clean back yard? Reboxetine is a drug that Goldacre prescribed which was approved by MHRA. In 2010 through a long process of investigating, it was found that only the smallest one out of seven trials showed it was a little better than a placebo pill. None of these trials were published. Goldacre had no idea they existed. More to come, unpublished data showed that it had worse side effects than other drugs. In reality, it was no better than a sugar pill and worse, it did more harm than good. The drug is still on the market.
If anyone changes their diet and lifestyles after a short intervention, it probably is what is keeping you healthy and not the pills you are popping.
do you have a point? one about chiropractic?
I “pop pills” as you so derisively put it, each day–to keep my blood pressure at a good level to prevent stroke and heart attack (there is early onset heart disease in my family). I need these pills in spite of my compliance with all lifestyle factors including maintaining a healthy weight by eating properly. I need less of them since my weight loss, but I still need them. I have now happily outlived all my relatives older than myself and many who died quite young.
I also recovered from a serious back injury very well, thank you, by following the advice of my medical doctor. I used pain killers for a couple of weeks while the injury began to heal. Then, I waited for time to take care of things while I met with a physical therapist and engaged in appropriate exercise until I gradually got better.
Honestly, I get so sick of this mantra of physicians as “pill pushers” and uncaring about lifestyle factors. If you have a “persistent back ache”, you need to find out why from a real medical doctor and follow his or her advice–period–no quacks needed.
bravo!
practically all the evidence we have today about life-style was generated by proper doctors, not by gurus, quacks and other jokers who decide to warm their hands on a hot potato.
Diet and lifestyles is the main cause of the obesity epidemic today which is the reason behind major diseases in the west yet medics’ and nurses’ curriculum designed by drug companies remains inadequate.
“Status of nutrition education in medical schools – Numerous entreaties have been made over the past 2 decades to improve the nutrition knowledge and skills of medical students and physicians. However, most graduating medical students continue to rate their nutrition preparation as inadequate….
On average, students received 23.9 contact hours of nutrition instruction during medical school….
Patients routinely seek physicians’ guidance about diet, and the relation of nutrition to the prevention and treatment of disease is well known. However, practicing physicians continually rate their nutrition knowledge and skills as inadequate.” – Kelly M Adams, et al – NCBI
“Chronic back pain is defined as pain that persists for 12 weeks or longer, even after an initial injury or underlying cause of acute low back pain has been treated. About 20 percent of people affected by acute low back pain develop chronic low back pain with persistent symptoms at one year. In some cases, treatment successfully relieves chronic low back pain, but in other cases pain persists despite medical and surgical treatment. The magnitude of the burden from low back pain has grown worse in recent years.
…a study ranking the most burdensome conditions in the U.S. in terms of mortality or poor health as a result of disease put low back pain in sixth place; in 2010, low back pain jumped to third place, with only ischemic heart disease and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease ranking higher.” National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke
Not everyone is as lucky as you granny!
and you think this means that chiros have a better knowledge???
@martin
“lucky”? Did you not read the post? She followed the medical advice she received. Not all medical advice works, of course, but at least it isn’t quackery masquerading as “medicine”.
Martin, it’s not just what people eat, but the calories in excess of needs that causes obesity, which does result in health issues for many. I eat very well, thank you, and there is no great mystery for doctors or anyone about nutrition. Eat good food, not too much–mostly plants, as Michael Pollan succinctly puts it. There is nothing wrong with my diet, but I still have heart disease–well managed heart disease, but it’s there in my genes whether I like it or not and no “nutritionist” (whatever that would be to those of you who forget that doctors study biology and are perfectly well aware of what humans need to thrive) is going to be able to alter my genes through any kind of CAM nonsense. The memes you spew are tired and hackneyed at this point and there is no evidence for any of it.
Yes, I was fortunate perhaps, but most back pain resolves and when it doesn’t, it is still better to seek proper medical adivce than turn oneself over to a quack. Oh..one more thing–it’s Grandma, not “granny”. I had the great joy of becoming a grandmother at age 40 and I look nothing like the Clampett woman.
Dear friend of D.D. Palmer .. interesting .. looks like you are still on the way of 19th century drugless healing iatromechanic and vitalism .. coffee grounds nowadays … the same quack like European / Commonwealth Osteopathic Manipulators doing VM and Craniosacral .. ??
Real medicine? LOLOLOL What a joke!
Most, if not all of the real medical doctors can be found in emergency rooms and hospitals. They are dealing with acute diseases and trauma, so they function at a very high level. That’s about it though. I’ll give private practice orthopedic surgeons some respect too, as they provide necessary expertise and skills, but even they perform un-needed surgeries too often.
I’m almost certain that most MD’s disparaging chiropractic on this page are old. Like 60 years and older. Set in your ways. You have an old and outdated knowledge base and lack some very foundational understanding. I’ll debate and educate any one of you regarding how a spinal adjustment improves joint function biomechanically.
I am aware, however, that many MD’s (not all) have extremely poor knowledge of the neuromusculoskeletal system. I assert that most have poor knowledge. Your knowledge of nutrition is even questionable if not poor. And the amazing thing is that the human body is electrochemical in nature, yet you have very little understanding about the electrochemical nature of foods and how they play an important role in health.
Go ahead! Keep prescribing your pills and pharmaceutical drugs. You don’t do anything. “Here you go Ms. Patient. Take this bottle of pills for three weeks and if the problem doesn’t go away, we can try some other pills. Now, please see my receptionist as you check out, and that will be $600 for your 30 minute visit for me prescribing you a pill that a pharmaceutical sales rep could have just done.” LOLOLOLOLOL If your primary income comes from prescribing drugs, you don’t do anything. Your medical skills are essentially useless. What a joke!
what a joke indeed! I mean your comment, of course.
@Jay
“And the amazing thing is that the human body is electrochemical in nature, yet you have very little understanding about the electrochemical nature of foods and how they play an important role in health.”
Really? And no one has worked this out until now? What a revelation!
In being so critical of age, are we to assume that you are still very young, still young enough to presume you know everything? Age does do many things things, one of which is the burden that you know it all. Soak up the ignorance while you still can then, before the lessons of time drill something into your head. With you though, it may be an exception.
“The issue of negative results that go missing in action cuts into almost every corner of science. It distorts findings in fields as diverse as brain imaging and economics, it makes a mockery of all our efforts to exclude bias from our studies, and despite everything that regulators and drug companies and even some academics will tell you, it is a problem that has been left unfixed for decades.”
“…it is so deep rooted that even if we fixed it today – right now.. that still wouldn’t help because we would still be practicing medicine, cheerfully making decisions about which treatment is best, on the basis of decades of medical evidence which is fundamentally distorted.”
Ben Goldacre does not take it as a joke, in fact he is pretty angry in his book.
But then he is 40 not over 60 and still has the balls to go after what really counts.
@martin
“But then he is 40 not over 60 and still has the balls to go after what really counts.”
Where does that put Professor Ernst, or me (nearly)? Ageist nonsense.
This is so stupid on so many levels. It is posts like this that make me wish there was an “ignore” button on this forum to filter out the fools.
I am aware, however, that many MD’s (not all) have extremely poor knowledge of the neuromusculoskeletal system.
Oh really? How do you know this? Do tell.
Speaking of jokes….
‘Parents of colicky infants’ turns out to be one parent of one colicky infant. She had ‘“no luck” with the usual ways of alleviating colic symptoms – including giving Emma children’s probiotics daily’. Harrumph! Where’s the evidence for probiotics alleviating colic symptoms?
@ Frank
Remember to separate the technique from the intent. The techniques chiropractors use when treating patient can also be used by other professions i.e. osteos and physios – you should know this as you had a HVLA manipulation done by a physio for you mid-thoracic pain.
What i mean by intent is the clinical reasoning behind the treatment. For example, some chiropractors intend to treat the disproven subluxation, whereas other chiros will go through a consultation, examination and diagnosis and use the most appropriate treatment for that condition.
So, for me the techniques used are not the major problem (except for neck manipulation) and there are plenty of research studies for the techniques, but it is why the practitioner is treating the patient.
@An Other
“you should know this as you had a HVLA manipulation done by a physio for you mid-thoracic pain”
There were several differences to what a chiropractor would do; the most fundamental was there is no crash-bang theatrical table involved. The second was that it was not HVLA; it was high force and enough amplitude to flatten my chest cavity more than it had ever been before. Also, there were no X-rays, only a physical examination to determine where the problem was located.
The main difference was that it worked immediately. I know it wasn’t a placebo as I could rotate my upper body and without pain.
“Remember to separate the technique from the intent.”
I ca,’t see how this is possible with chiropractic since most involves the silly table.
@ Frank
Too many sweeping assumptions 😉 – not all chiros use a drop table but that is just my experience.
You may deny it but your description of the treatment is HVLA manipulation. Also you don’t need to do x-rays for manipulation.
Have you looked into how much evidence there is for thoracic manipulation? To be frank (no pun intended), there is not much.
How do you know you didn’t experience the effects of a placebo – the examination, the diagnosis, the pop or click from the treatment – these all have an effect on the patient (you), whether you want to acknowledge them is another thing. Remember, when you are interacting with a person (could be a healthcare provider) they will be some effect on you and your physiology – Edzard has demonstrated this (I think) by showing actors were better than faith healers. Theatrics are part of the process ie the way a practitioner can relate/show empathy with a patient can help with their recovery.
Could your condition got better with time, or painkillers, or heat? Could a safer treatment be used – ie mobilisation than manipulation? All good questions you should ask yourself.
@An Other
Groan. Couldn’t help yourself, could you? The abject pettiness of that jibe points to something; any guesses?
As for the “frank” joke, I barely restrained from puking. After all, I probably haven’t heard hundreds of times, starting at primary school. Is that the level of your wit?
Anyway, back to the point. “How do you know you didn’t experience the effects of a placebo”.
Well, let me see. For the few seconds after the chest crush, I was in tremendous pain which quickly subsided and for a couple of minutes afterwards, I felt incapable of getting up, or even moving. When I did move, I felt that my rib cage had been crushed and re-assembled, but in working order. You (somewhat laughingly) refer to this as theatrics in the next chestnut.
“Theatrics are part of the process ie the way a practitioner can relate/show empathy with a patient can help with their recovery.” Empathy from Lachlan? That is a laugh too. Lachlan was all about getting this done efficiently, no banter or trying to make me feel good emotionally. Mind you, I like efficiency but wasn’t offended by his brusqueness either. If theatrics are tremendous pain, he achieved that too.
“Could your condition got better with time, or painkillers, or heat? Could a safer treatment be used – ie mobilisation than manipulation? All good questions you should ask yourself.”
I did ask those questions because I tried them all, as well as my wife massaging, bending back over a chair, back exercises and stuff I forget now. The discomfort/pain didn’t change nor did the lack of mobility.
Lachlan was the team physio for an Australian Rules Football League club, Richmond, back in the days when players had jaws broken from being punched and a player of 80 to 90 kilos running through the chest of another player at full speed. His job was to get them back on the ground as quickly as possible. The game is very clean now though.
I must ask you whether you are on this forum only as a contrarian? I cannot see any other reason.
@ Frank
So, Lachlan did connect with you because you liked what he did – he was efficient, which you liked and therefore something that could have had an effect on you response to the treatment.
Just to point out that Lachlan caused an adverse event, which was to cause your pain to be temporarily worse before recovering.
Are you a contrarian Frank? because you are doing exactly the same as me – asking questions and trying to guide or change peoples points of view when you think they require a better understanding of a complex problem like musculoskeletal pain.
Frank- You seem to have a particularly high regard for Lachlan. What if you didn’t have that faith in him or if he didn’t work for the ARL team in the tough old days when men were men and chickens were chickiens, and you panicked after the chest crush/HVLA thrust. Maybe that would have exacerbated the problem? You don’t know and to think you have a greater understanding than anyone else alive is delusional.
Your argument here seems to be a advertisement for chiropractors.
For someone who has such forthright and educated critical opinions I am surprised you are so certain. Feel free to belittle my spelling, make assumptions or criticise my grammar as you see fit.
I wish this site allowed for images because I would post a picture of the straws Neil and An Other are clutching at.
@An Other,
No, I didn’t “connect” with Lachlan as in an “emotional” response. The only thing I was after was to be relieved of the pain, which he did. I was wary about everything going into his rooms and thought I was going to waste my money, just like I did when I was referred to a chiropractor years before. I was prepared for failure. I had no interest either in liking him or otherwise. Following the successful treatment, I respected him professionally.
I should also point out that i have no inherent trust or faith in any health professional; I respect the science but humans are fallible. That trust must be earnt.
“Lachlan caused an adverse event”. Do you mean an adverse event such as those caused by the surgeons who performed a laminectomy, appendicitis, cyst removal and some other surgeries, but which was necessary in order to cure me of the problem? I cannot wonder why you point this out, but there is no accounting for some.
“Are you a contrarian Frank?” This comes as no surprise, given your tit-for-tat responses. Refer to last sentence of last paragraph. Just out of curiousity, are you a nurse?
@Neil
“Feel free to belittle my spelling, make assumptions or criticise my grammar as you see fit.” Are you setting up the scenario and expectation of an ad hominem, after having delivered one of your own? I don’t have a crack at someone unless it is in response to a crack. Dishonesty also qualifies. Are you used to people belittling you?
“You seem to have a particularly high regard for Lachlan. What if you didn’t have that faith in him or if he didn’t work for the ARL team in the tough old days when men were men and chickens were chickiens, and you panicked after the chest crush/HVLA thrust. Maybe that would have exacerbated the problem?”
See above. I didn’t have any regard for Lachlan nor any expectations other than disappointment. I didn’t make a point about something you have honed in on, the old macho aspect of the game, other than to illustrate that the players suffered some awful injuries. I don’t like that macho nonsense, though it seems you grasped at it (refer to the first paragraph).
“Maybe that would have exacerbated the problem? You don’t know and to think you have a greater understanding than anyone else alive is delusional.” I don’t understand your point but that doesn’t surprise me.
“For someone who has such forthright and educated critical opinions I am surprised you are so certain.” I wasn’t certain about anything other than to expect failure, which didn’t happen.
@ Frank
If you respect science, what is the evidence base for manipulation for thoracic spine pain?
If you find that there is not much or no evidence for manipulation for thoracic spine pain, where does that leave Lachlan – practicing a technique without evidence? Should he stop or should he carry on? What happens to the patients that don’t get better or feel worse (like you did temporarily)?
Also humans are fallible and if you can’t realise that there could have been other effects on your recovery other than the treatment itself, you are just as human as the rest of us.
@An Other
“If you respect science, what is the evidence base for manipulation for thoracic spine pain?”
That is a fair question so I did a search this morning and there is good evidence for manipulation by physios.
“What happens to the patients that don’t get better or feel worse (like you did temporarily)?”
If you are going to make comments, at least please read the previous comments?
“Also humans are fallible and if you can’t realise that there could have been other effects on your recovery other than the treatment itself, you are just as human as the rest of us.”
See the last comment.
@ Frank
Please can you post examples of this evidence for manipulation (done by physios or anyone else) for thoracic spine pain – need to see the evidence because i couldn’t find it.
You said
““What happens to the patients that don’t get better or feel worse (like you did temporarily)?”
If you are going to make comments, at least please read the previous comments?
“Also humans are fallible and if you can’t realise that there could have been other effects on your recovery other than the treatment itself, you are just as human as the rest of us.”
See the last comment.”
I am not sure what comments that have been said previously i should be referring to. Please can you point out which comment(s) – thanks.
“How do you know you didn’t experience the effects of a placebo – the examination, the diagnosis, the pop or click from the treatment – these all have an effect on the patient (you), whether you want to acknowledge them is another thing. Remember, when you are interacting with a person (could be a healthcare provider) they will be some effect on you and your physiology – Edzard has demonstrated this (I think) by showing actors were better than faith healers. Theatrics are part of the process ie the way a practitioner can relate/show empathy with a patient can help with their recovery.”
This is EXACTLY WHY proper medical trials are so carefully designed to eliminate these things. Trials that, when properly done I would point out, consistently show CAM to be ineffective.
It will be very interesting to see what happens if and when Obama’s Value Based Payment Goals hit the make-believe based health services, i.e. chiropractic “care”
Here’s a somewhat lighter reading about this.
@ Bjorn
How about this by Gerd Gigerenzer and Muir Gray:
http://www.esforum.de/images/SFR06_flyer.pdf
and
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCcQFjAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.harding-center.mpg.de%2Fen%2Fsystem%2Ffiles%2Fmedia%2Fpdf%2F3e216aff44cb496d30ce8cca21ad46bc%2Fgigerenzer_gray_century_of_the_patient-3.pdf&ei=hbrHVKTFJcX0UpLCg4gC&usg=AFQjCNEKh9Z_rZOxw8JmZw7hWYt051xbUw
@ Bjorn
Have a read of this by Gerd Gigerenzer and Muir Gray:
https://www.harding-center.mpg.de/en/publications/selected-articles/launching-the-century-of-the-patient
[Admin: link corrected]
Yes. Medicine (the real one) is always striving to improve. You mean this kind of self-examination and critical appraisal would be good for the chiropractors whose only progress since DD Palmers original invention has been to improve their income?
@ Bjorn
Yes – I think all professions should read and reflect on what was written by Gigerenzer and Gray
I guess 50,000 less deaths due to adverse events from medical treatment is a step in the right direction for medicine.
@David sparavec (sic)
“I guess 50,000 less deaths due to adverse events from medical treatment is a step in the right direction for medicine.”
Do you think medical doctors are happy or unconcerned when a patient dies? If you believe that, I cannot and will not understand your mindset. Does it make you happy to hear that someone who saw a medical doctor died? Strange!
The problem is that medical doctors treat most of the diseases chiropractors cannot and do not have the training (or intelligence) for; conditions like the multitude of cancers, stones, bacterial infections, viruses, endocrinological disorders, heart disease, broken bones, spina bifida, appendicitis, and the thousands of real ailments. Chiropractors, on the other hand, fritter away on the margins, claiming huge health gains, but in reality doing very little.
Do you not understand that there are far more risks with all of those conditions, not just whether someone has a sore back? The answer is; probably not (because if someone can’t even get their own name right, they will have problems with most things).
Frank. Now you’re just be a “tone troll” just like myself, Bjorn, and Edzard.
Off course I’m not happy when someone dies from and adverse medical treatment. Especially when the condition is something as simple as chronic non specific mechanical low back pain that Bjorn points out in his past post is “self limiting” and passes on its own.
@David Sparavec (Would you please spell your own name correctly?)
“Off course I’m not happy when someone dies from and adverse medical treatment. Especially when the condition is something as simple as chronic non specific mechanical low back pain that Bjorn points out in his past post is “self limiting” and passes on its own.”
This is something new. Do you have any stats on the numbers who have died from CLBP?
In the general public? No. I’m sure there is a data base for that if u are interested.
But from my own stays in the 31 years of clinical prac as an Osteopath, I’ve had 4 that have died from surgical intervention in that period. These four were referred by me to 4 different orthapaedic surgeons who were/are well respected by me and in the general medical circles. Not their fault. Just one of these things. 2 from anaesthetic reactions, 1 from post surgical infection(they think) and 1 from some sort of stroke post op. Pretty sad mate. For me, the families, and the surgeons involved. I’ve also had (about) 12 die from anti inflam side effects (some prescribed and some over the counter). Again. No ones fault. That’s clinical prac and life. Something u know nothing about, apart from your limited experience visiting a chiro.
As for my name, it’s spelt correctly. Just google my name and osteopath and u can even see a picture of me.
@David Sparavec
“In the general public? No. I’m sure there is a data base for that if u are interested.”
I asked because you made the statement with a high degree of assurance, as if there is a distinction between what you, as a chiropractor and osteopath offers (http://davidsparavec.com/) and that provided by a medical doctor. Now, as explained by you, these deaths are “Not their fault.”, “Pretty sad mate.”, and “Again. No ones fault. That’s clinical prac and life.” but not the clinically minded response I’d hoped .
“Something u know nothing about, apart from your limited experience visiting a chiro.” I can only ask why this sentence is here? I have a fairly good idea why but would like you to confirm it.
“As for my name, it’s spelt correctly. Just google my name and osteopath and u can even see a picture of me.” I feel uncomfortable having to say this but your response leaves me little choice; all names start with a capital, the word “u” does not exist because it is spelt “you”, and I have no interest in seeing a picture of you. The only thing this leaves me with is your lack of grasp of basic logic or English grammar.
Your website does have an insight into your thinking:
“Why Use Alternative Therapy?
There are all manner of alternative forms of medicine and therapy available to people these days. Some of these methods come from ancient traditions, and some are more recently developed in response to a growing trend of treating so much through pharmaceuticals and prescriptions. However, these alternative forms of medicine can be hard to directly verify. When should you try an alternative method?
Alternative medicine primarily comes in the form of natural supplements and in physical therapy. Say you have chronic pain in your lower back. A traditional way to treat this might be to take a pill or even get surgery.
However, with alternative medicine, some may find it more beneficial to go through physical therapy, including shiatsu or acupuncture, or take a natural supplement. Due to the simple nature of alternative medicine, it is hard to conclusively say that it is more or less effective than traditional medicine, but ultimately it comes down to what each individual finds helps them most. Some people feel more at ease not having to take a pill, and still others may not even be able to afford expensive prescriptions. On the other hand, other people may feel more at ease using a scientifically proven treatment method.
Thus, it is worth trying both traditional and alternative methods of treatment when each is available in order to find the ideal solution for your situation. We use conventional medicine and techniques combined with natural therapies to help treat various aliments(sic) effectively.”
“Some of the key findings in his research were:
It is estimated that 90% of all back surgeries are unnecessary
Studies have demonstrated that people who undergo surgery are worse off after a 2-year follow up than people who had conservative non-surgical management.
Manipulative treatment for disc herniation is very effective and completely safe.”
It would seem your sloppy thinking is not only an aspect of your writing.
Hmm. Frank…to be frank…:). You are just a tone troll as described in the article neil posted. And you post things that you would not dare say face to face. The ultimate keyboard warrior.
Edzard blog is a good blog. It’s confronting, and generates a lot of thinking by those involved in CAMS based clinical care. The more non clinical idiots like yourself that post replies that are just plainly trying to be offensive, the lower it brings the importantly of the debates on both sides of the discussion.
Frank..you are a prime class fool. I hope Edzard is astute enough to block you permanently and delete you ridiculous uninformed dribble.
@Dave Sparavec
“Hmm. Frank…to be frank…:). You are just a tone troll as described in the article neil posted. And you post things that you would not dare say face to face. The ultimate keyboard warrior.”
Not dare, then you clearly don’t know me. I only post things I would say to your face; that is, for me, the mediating factor. If you need ad hominems? Just to illustrate anecdotally, I walk my dog and when I see someone not pick up their dog poo, I do and drop it in their front yard while they are watching.
Not dare? That is hilarious. If I lived in Sydney, I would visit to and read to you what I’ve written here.
“Edzard blog is a good blog. It’s confronting, and generates a lot of thinking by those involved in CAMS based clinical care. The more non clinical idiots like yourself that post replies that are just plainly trying to be offensive, the lower it brings the importantly of the debates on both sides of the discussion.”
Generates a lot of thinking? Not enough apparently since you recommend shiatsu “There is no evidence that shiatsu is an effective medical treatment.”
Robinson, Nicola; Lorenc, Ava; Liao, Xing (2011). “The evidence for Shiatsu: A systematic review of Shiatsu and acupressure”
“Shiatsu”. Cancer Research UK.
“Frank..you are a prime class fool. I hope Edzard is astute enough to block you permanently and delete you ridiculous uninformed dribble.”
I’m a fool because you say so? That is a badge of honour coming from someone like you.
Why don’t you leave Edzard’s decisions to him? He is obviously more than intelligent enough to make his own informed decisions and doesn’t need your insulting advice.
Edzard has analysed the data and comes to conclusions based on a dispassionate assessment, yet you want to debate this with him as if he is wrong? He has done the research and you still won’t accept it, yet I’m the “prime class fool”?
@David Sparavec
“The more non clinical idiots like yourself”
So I’m a “non-clinical idiot” because I am aware that there is little evidence to support osteopathy and chiropractic, however, the “evidence” of the “non-clinical idiots” who are treated by you is valid and worthwhile?
You aren’t interested in evidence, other than that, however scientifically invalid, which supports your position. I re-iterate that Prof Ernst is professionally engaged to examine all of the research and critically analyse it, and yet you refuse to accept his findings.
Ah…! it’s only 50.000 this time. We have dealt with this fallacious argumentation many times before on this blog. Usually, to our resident trolls blurt out much larger figures from their behinds.
Remember, medicine has been taking small and large steps in the right direction since long before chiropractic was invented by a magnetic healer. Chiropractic has only improved its income augmentation techniques since then.
I got this from the link from your previous post;
“Although we have much to celebrate regarding increased access and quality and reduced cost growth, much of the hard work of improving our health care system lies ahead of us. Care delivered in hospitals was much safer in 2013 than it was in 2010: there were 1.3 million fewer adverse events between 2011 and 2013 than there would have been if the rate of such events had remained unchanged, and an estimated 50,000 deaths were averted. Still, far too many hospitalized patients — nearly 1 in 10 — have adverse events while hospitalized, and many people do not receive care that they should receive, while others receive care that does not benefit them. Growth of health care spending is at historic lows: Medicare spending per beneficiary increased by approximately 2% per year from 2010 to 2014 — a rate far below both historical averages and the growth rate of the gross domestic product.4 Survey data show that more than 7 in 10 people who signed up for insurance in the new health insurance marketplace last year say the quality of their coverage is excellent or good.5 However, it will take additional effort to sustain and augment the positive changes we have seen so far.”
So..they actually came from Bjorn YOUR behind. Still… you are right. It says 50,000deaths were averted…but it is interesting as to how many “adverse events” were occur. Considering how you are babbling on about how DANGEROUS and expensive it is to see a Chiro..and you post this from Obamas lot!!!
“Considering how you are babbling on about how DANGEROUS and expensive it is to see a Chiro”
Chiros treat the worried well and the not very sick. How you can compare chiro charlatans to doctors that treat all diseases is beyond me, unless of course, you are one of the chiro cures everything brigade?
This is an appalling site from the US but IMO it does not represent the way that chiropractors work within the UK and I am certain that it is inconsistent with the way chiropractic is taught at the AECC for example. Highlighting sites like this do not give a very balanced view of chiropractic in the UK. It is always possible to show this type of stuff we can do the same for physio as well see this http://www.stortphysio.com/conditions.html for example claiming to treat asthma, hayfever, IBS etc but not much evidence to support it.
don’t you forget a few things?
1 this blog is about alt med and not about physios
2 this blog is about CRITICAL ANALYSIS and not about presenting the case for chiros
3 the lack of chiropractic opposition against such quackery discloses the chiropractic profession to be quackery.
@ Edzard
You are right that this is a CAM website. However, until other professions stop using CAM, for example physios using acupuncture, then those professions must be discussed and criticized.
Critical analysis is important too, but it should not mean not mentioning all profession who use CAM. Otherwise that critical analysis is flawed.
When does the opposition within a profession against quackery become big enough for that profession not to be quackery? 51%?
DON’T YOU THINK IT’S A BIT ALSO A QUESTION OF DEGREE; SOME PROFESSIONS USE A BIT OF QUACKERY SOME TIME. OTHERS ONLY USE QUACKERY ALL OF THE TIME.
@ Edzard
No – either the use quackery or they don’t!
But if it is a question of scale then what is worse – 3000 chiros or 4-5000 (out of 50,000) physios who use acupuncture (if we assume they use it all the time)?
Interesting response Edzard. In the UK chiropractic is not regarded as CAM by many authorities as it is a regulated health profession in its own right. If you do consider it as “alternative” then it would be an alternative to physiotherapy so it is relevant to consider what physiotherapist do in a similar setting. On the lack of opposition to this type of “quackery” I think that there is a lot of opposition from within the chiropractic profession in the UK and as I said this style/model is not taught at institutions such as the AECC as I am sure you are aware following your recent visit.
” there is a lot of opposition from within the chiropractic profession in the UK” THAT IS GREAT – CARE TO SHOW US SOME EVIDENCE OF IT?
Well this for a start https://brightonchiropractor.wordpress.com/2010/05/26/bca-statement-on-vertebral-subluxation-complex/
I am not up to speed on chiropractic in the UK, but Australia yes! but here is some evidence from my research library!
The chiropractic profession in Norway 2011
http://www.chiromt.com/content/22/1/44
Variations in the implementation and characteristics of chiropractic services in VA.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25397831
Chiropractic treatment approaches for spinal musculoskeletal conditions: a cross-sectional survey
http://www.chiromt.com/content/22/1/33
Gimme that old time religion: the influence of the healthcare belief system of chiropractic’s early leaders on the development of x-ray imaging in the profession (That title is magnificent! Love it!)
http://www.chiromt.com/content/22/1/36/abstract
A survey of wellness management strategies used by Canadian doctors of chiropractic.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21807262
Referrals to chiropractors and osteopaths: a survey of general practitioners in rural and regional New South Wales, Australia
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3599860/?tool=pmcentrez
Increasing research capacity in the chiropractic profession: A case study and evaluation of an innovative research program in Norway
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3604963/?tool=pmcentrez
There is a similar course available at Coursera that I have done and highly recommend for any health professional reading this:
Understanding Research: An Overview for Health Professionals
https://www.coursera.org/course/researchforhealth
Survey based investigation into general practitioner referral patterns for spinal manipulative therapy
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3668299/?tool=pmcentrez
Attitudes toward evidence-based clinical practice among doctors of chiropractic with diplomate-level training in orthopedics
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4029280/?tool=pmcentrez
Knowledge Transfer within the Canadian Chiropractic Community. Part 1: Understanding Evidence-Practice Gaps
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3661177/?tool=pmcentrez
Creating a Chiropractic Practice-Based Research Network (PBRN): Enhancing the management of musculoskeletal care
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3924502/?tool=pmcentrez
The John A. Sweaney Lecture: Vilamoura, Portugal, May 2007, given by Dr John A. Sweaney. Chiropractic: in pursuit of professionalism
http://www.journalchirohumanities.com/article/S1556-3499%2813%2900006-5/fulltext
Testing the effectiveness of an innovative information package on practitioner reported behaviour and beliefs: The UK Chiropractors, Osteopaths and Musculoskeletal Physiotherapists Low back pain ManagemENT (COMPLeMENT) trial [ISRCTN77245761]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1208895/?tool=pmcentrez
Active opposition in Australia:
https://www.coca.com.au/about/policy-statements/
Someone who has written 80+ articles critical of BS within chiropractic, Stephen Perle:
http://www.dynamicchiropractic.com/mpacms/dc/search.php?q=Stephen+Perle&site=DynamicChiropractic&entqr=0&output=xml_no_dtd&sort=date%3AD%3AL%3Ad1&client=all_sites&ud=1&oe=UTF-8&ie=UTF-8&proxystylesheet=all_sites&proxyreload=1
I have cited more similar to this in prevoius blogs on this site but this is all recent!
Andy said:
Well, the NHS website says:
Can you give examples of authorities that maintain chiropractic isn’t CAM?
But of course, it’s not whether it’s a regulated profession that makes it not CAM.
just another example of chiropractic wishful thinking, I am afraid.
Dan Poulter a health minister this week commented that CAM practitioners are not subject to statutory regulation whilst chiropractic and osteopathy clearly are regulated by statute. In addition the CQC class both of these professions as regulated professions and does not classify them as CAM.
Andy said:
Being regulated by statute does not mean they are not CAM. Further, neither the Chiropractors Act 1994 nor the Osteopaths Act 1993 define what is and what isn’t chiro and osteo – they are purely concerned with protection of title, not scope of practice.
The CQC only classifies them as being statutory regulated occupations because that’s what they are and that alone puts them above other CAM in that respect – there is no need for the CQA to consider any further whether or not what chiros and osteos do is or isn’t CAM and in fact probably completely outwith their remit to do so. That still does not make them not CAM.
So the best we seem to have so far is that the NHS considers both chiro and osteo to be CAM.
1.When the physio’s are adopting alt med wholesale using activators, SOT blocking using SOT protocols, Dry Needling, physio practice management guru’s promoting how to create lifetime wellness patients, calling themselves Osteopractors etc with scant internal critical analysis and zero external criticism?
2. Chiro’s who do provide critical analysis as I have cited many times on this blog!
3. The presence of chiropractic opposition to BS as I have cited many times on this blog!
As I have said prevoiusly, Step 1 point out the BS, Step 2 point out whats right and support!
Blanket statement in regards to chiropractic does aid the reform process.
Support the reformers and those cleaning house!
Typo “Does Not aid the reform process” one word LOL
I did use their contact form to ask why they make those claims, and am looking forward to a response. I won’t hold my breath though.
I find the references to concussions particularly concerning. I’m really not sure where chiropractic treatment would fit for people with PCS, Mild Traumatic Brain Injury & Head Injury. I have come across one UK website offering chiropractic treatment for these conditions
@Jill
What these conditions have in common is that they are almost invariably self-improving over a period of time. Such patients are especially lucrative for theatrical placebo performers like chiro, acupuncture etc. It is very easy to talk the patient into believing it was you who managed a miracle with your mystical manipulations As it also takes time, they require repeat attention and a wallet biopsy at every visit while nature takes care of business.
On Tuesday 27 January 2015 at 20:17 Andy mentioned this website: https://brightonchiropractor.wordpress.com/2010/05/26/bca-statement-on-vertebral-subluxation-complex/
@ Andy
You really need to get up to speed with the UK General Chiropractic Council’s (GCC) stance on subluxations. In August 2010 it changed its original May 2010 guidance on the Vertebral Subluxation Complex to allow chiropractors to treat ‘health concerns’ caused by ‘subluxations’. See its vague explanation here: http://skepticbarista.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/subluxrevltr1.jpg
The new guidance is here: http://skepticbarista.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/subluxrevguidance.jpg
Do you know what evidence* the GCC applied in order to arrive at its revision, and would you agree that the new guidance is wholly unhelpful to patients?
* My own view is that the subluxation-based Alliance of UK Chiropractors (apparently the largest association of chiropractors in the UK) duped the GCC by presenting it with a dubious dossier on the Vertebral Subluxation Complex. Read more here: https://skepticbarista.wordpress.com/2010/10/17/subluxations-still-no-evidence/