Manufacturers of homeopathic remedies are having a hard time, it seems. The following press release has just reached me, and I thought it might be worth sharing it with my readers:
Baden-Baden, Germany, May 23, 2014 – Heel Group today announced the cessation of its business activities in the United States and Canada on August 31, 2014.
In the USA and Canada, manufacturers of OTC homeopathic medicinal products have been confronted with accusations through class action lawsuits. Heel Inc., the Heel Group’s U.S.-based subsidiary, was also faced with two such attempts recently. Both cases have been settled without conceding the allegations. The financial burden on Heel Inc., however, was substantial.
In a subsequent risk-benefit analysis of its global activities, the Heel Group decided to focus on strengthening its excellent position in South America, Central Europe and Eastern Europe and to withdraw from business activities in the USA and Canada for the time being.
Heel’s operations in both the USA and Canada will accordingly be discontinued as of August 31, 2014.
In the USA, negotiations with MediNatura Inc., a Delaware Corporation, are close to completion by which the Heel Group will transfer its stock in Heel Inc., to MediNatura by the end of August 2014. The transaction does, however, not include any of Heel’s trusted and leading global brands such as Traumeel, Neurexan, Zeel, Oculoheel, Luffeel, Sinusin, Vinceel, Nectadyn, Adrisin, Gripp-Heel, Viburcol, Vertigoheel, Spascupreel, Engystol, and Lymphomyosot*. Completion of the acquisition is subject to standard closing procedures.
As a trailblazer and leader in the field of scientific research into natural healthcare and a leading manufacturer of homeopathic medicines, the Heel Group will continue to invest in research and development on a global scale, also involving the medical-scientific community in North America.
Ralph Schmidt, CEO of the Heel Group: “As a global player, we are continuously reviewing our portfolio. This means that we are sometimes required to focus on specific regions at the expense of others in order to efficiently carry out our ambitious expansion plans. I would not exclude the possibility of re-entering the markets in the USA and Canada with a new business concept.”
It is somewhat sobering from my point of view to realise that all the science proving that homeopathy had no health effects beyond placebo had little effect on the market for homeopathic remedies. If anything, the sales figures seemed to get better and better as the evidence got more and more negative during the last decades. The ‘globulisation’ of the world seemed imminent due to those homeopathic manufacturers who wanted to become ‘global players’ (is there not a homeopathic remedy against megalomania?). It was only the legal actions that seemed to have an effect. The multiple North American class actions were more effective than the science, it seems.
Is there a lesson here? Perhaps! It could be that scientists working on their own are not always powerful enough to improve health care. Particularly when confronted with an alliance of evangelic belief and commercial interests, scientists, sceptics, journalists, lawyers, politicians and other professions might have to co-operate to bring about meaningful change.
320 Responses to Homeopathic manufacturer to close North American subsidiaries
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Of course, what seems to have been the main distributor of Heel products in the UK seems to have stopped trading after a complaint by us to the MHRA: http://nightingale-collaboration.org/results/advertising-standards-authority-2.html
Unfortunately, it’s not all good news for the health of our friends across the pond:
MediNatura™ Inc. Announces Agreement to Purchase Heel Inc.
The two products I use Zeel and Traumeel are now being sold by MediNatura. If you compare the ingredients of T-Relief with the new substitute for Zeel. You will find they are not the same and the effectiveness has been reduced. I feel ripped off! With no way to purchase the original product.
“The two products I use Zeel and Traumeel are now being sold by MediNatura. If you compare the ingredients of T-Relief with the new substitute for Zeel. You will find they are not the same and the effectiveness has been reduced. I feel ripped off! With no way to purchase the original product.”
A few questions;
How can you tell the difference between one sham treatment and another?
How do you know the effectiveness has been reduced?
How are you “ripped off”, when there is no compulsion to buy the product?
How do you manage to tie your shoelaces?
So you have difficulty doing other than personal attacks? Very scientific. Please take your meds. Maybe that will help.
@David,
Speaking of meds (or other mind altering substances), you attack me for my last line, then do the same. Does hypocrisy not register with you?
I did ask three quite reasonable questions and have not had a response. My jibe was directed at Jeanne M-C’s difficulty in constructing comprehensible sentences, as well as her lack of understanding of what she (was) not buying.
I was merely repeating your tendency, so as to make it obvious to you in case it wasn’t.
hey Frank,
I tie my shoes pretty well. Plus I actually used Traumeel as well as other BHI and Heel products on my animal patients ( I am a veterinarian) and they worked with amazing results. The medi-nature products are not as good. not by a long shot. and I know because I am trying to find alternatives that are as good.
here are my questions to you:
1) how do you know something is a sham when you have never used it?
2) Are you aware that trolls have been scientifically studied and typically have psychopathic and sadistic traits?
@Gryphon on Thursday 21 January 2016 at 19:36
“I tie my shoes pretty well. Plus I actually used Traumeel as well as other BHI and Heel products on my animal patients ( I am a veterinarian) and they worked with amazing results.”
How do you know? From the time in the surgery, when the weight of expectation is on everyone, or, afterwards, when there is time to more fully determine the efficacy? I s there any systematic recording of treatments?
“The medi-nature products are not as good. not by a long shot. and I know because I am trying to find alternatives that are as good.”
Ditto.
here are my questions to you:
“1) how do you know something is a sham when you have never used it?”
In the same way I know some treatments are good medicine or complete nonsense; real science has been used to study treatments. Will I use some doo-lacky bullshit from a naturopath, or chemo if I get some cancer? I apologise for such an answer, however the question is stupid, certainly not befitting someone who should know better. If you practice in Melbourne, Australia, please say which street, so I will never take my loved dog there?
“2) Are you aware that trolls have been scientifically studied and typically have psychopathic and sadistic traits?”
Are you aware the question is complete nonsense, and you just made up total crap? I wonder if Robert Hare and Martha Stout share your view? I wonder whether you know those names? Notwithstanding, an ad hominem fits with the rest of your post.
If you don’t know what Logical Fallacies are, please find out? I an astounded someone can come out of a science-based course and not know the difference between science and opinion.
Just curious, is Frank an employee or representative of MediNatura?
@ karen on Saturday 20 February 2016 at 09:52
“Just curious, is Frank an employee or representative of MediNatura?”
Are you serious? Did you read my post?
You could be a disgruntled employee of theirs. Don’t forget: quacks are like Jesuits. They are always right, even when they are wrong ^_^
I have been using Traumeel for about three years now; It is the only product that would help my Arthritis. I am sick that I can no longer get it. The last time I ordered it from Amazon, I was sent another product called T-Relief, which most definitely does not work well for me. I have severe Arthritis and was so happy when I found Traumeel and that it worked so well for me.
This always happens to me. Every time I find a Product that works well for me, it gets discontinued.
Your reply regarding “Trolls” is spot on and the studies are frightening! As legislation continues to change regarding Social Media posts and the culpability of those companies, I predict Social Media giants will be fighting off a slew of litigation in the near future. The lawsuits in Korea have significantly reduced Trolls and those seeking to cancel or defame based on untruths!😉
You have no idea what you talk about. The traumeel in many instaces save me and my kids from terrible pains and inflammations. They always worked instantly. But if coarse I understand North America obssesion with pharmacare: I didnt need to go to a “normal” “scientific doctor and buy expensive and full of side effects antiinflammatory and other drugs. This american fight against nature and proven healing effects of gentle vibrations to your body has no long term future. It is a dead road.
“They always worked instantly.”
Then it is magic.
“I understand North America obssesion with pharmacare”
I’m not North American.
If you didn’t *need* a doctor, you simply didn’t have anything worth worrying about and it went away on its own. You could have saved time and money by not buying this magic ointment.
I was giving ZEEL to my dog. She was doing REALLY well. I was told the T-Relief was new labeling. I did not check the label. After awhile ,she began to have a lot of trouble again. I then checked into it & saw it was not the same product. That is enough evidence for me that the other was helping. She had to go on Rimadyl , then started to have other problems. It is upsetting.
Traumeel works. Of numerous homeopathic pain creams I have used, it is unmistakably the absolute best and most effective. The author’s bias is preposterous. I and many others are at a great loss due to litigious idiots and anti-homeopathy fanatics who can’t accept that everything doesn’t work the same for everybody, including western medicine that has been the scientific stamp of approval.
@ Elisabeth on Sunday 11 September 2016 at 21:16
“Traumeel works.”
Because you say so? Anecdotes are not evidence. Do we base building nuclear power stations on anecdotes?
“Of numerous homeopathic pain creams I have used, it is unmistakably the absolute best and most effective.”
“The author’s bias is preposterous.”
You correct about the prof being biased. He expects claims to be backed with E.V.I.D.E.N.C.E! If you find that preposterous, you need to learn how science works.
“I and many others are at a great loss due to litigious idiots and anti-homeopathy fanatics who can’t accept that everything doesn’t work the same for everybody, including western medicine that has been the scientific stamp of approval.”
As always, supporters of alt-med argue from a position of extraordinary ignorance but think they know better than the people who actually offer healthcare that works.
I love Traumeel. At 84, there is considerable pain in lots of places. Traumeel does not change the physiology but eliminates the inflammation, that is the pain. I order it from the Metropolitan Pharmacy in Frankfurt. The e-mail address is [email protected]. The price including shipping is cheaper than I paid at my local health store. Shipping delivery takes about a week.
Thank you, I sent away for Traumeel and received it today. Hope you are feeling well.
Here’s what I use. Works wonders if thoroughly massaged into sore and aching parts. Almost exactly the same active ingredients. as Traumeel
Thank you for posting this my mom twisted ankle and im getting it from your suggested website blessings M
hELLO
i live in Canada do you think I can order from Germany too? Is there any problem importing that kind of medicine?
There should be no problem getting it from Frankfurt if you live in Canada. If I get it easily by regular mail in the US you shouldn’t have a problem.. It is not a dangerous product. I have bone on bone in my right shoulder. The doctor at the Rothman Institute in Philadelphia was going to treat it with cortisone shots and later surgery. I chose Traumeel and I no longer have pain. I don’t have to have it replaced like I did my left shoulder. It is still bone on bone but the pain is gone.
I feel your pain. I used many bhi products in my veterinary clinic with excellent results. It is not a placebo effect when a dog with urinary incontinence due to hypoestrogenism is cured with a homeopathic. Bhi products worked. Meanwhile gmo corn and now salmon is greenlighted in the u.s.
No “gryphon” you are right on that point, it is not a ‘placebo effect’.
It is ‘placebo effect by proxy’! It is not the dog who thinks it is cured by homeopathy. It is you who are fooled to think it is the homeopathic remedy made by shaking pure water, that is having an effect.
But you are otherwise wrong.
You have no valid proof that it is the (remedy made from) shaken water that is “curing” the hypoestrogenism. Incontinence in older, spayed bitches can come and go because of very many other factors such as stress, exercise, UTI, sterile cystitis, timing of access to water, etc. (Exactly the same as in human ladies.)
One obvious reason for apparent “cure” might be as simple as that of the owner feeling reassured by your reassuring words and useless but impressive (to many) sugar pills with fancy names. The owner behaves less stressfully with the dog and thereby sets it at ease and it stops peeing in improper places etc.
Or it was just a couple of lucky strike cases where the cystitis spontaneously improved and you were led to think that it was the homeopathy and forget about all the other cases that did not improve. Fooled by your own anecdotes – That’s what keeps most homepaths at shaking their water.
You would have to conduct a rather large, independently repeated, blinded, randomized, preferably crossover trial to be able to eliminate these and other confounding factors, biases and wishful thinking. Without such careful trial setup, your own wishful thinking will lead you on a wild goose chase.
If you can provide credible, substantiated proof that I am wrong, please do. Until then, this purported effect of homeopathy is nothing but (your) wishful thinking.
Considering pain relief is not an insignificant problem, and the overuse of narcotics is becoming epidemic, it behooves us to find some alternatives. Traumeel has been studied, and the results are interesting.
[Links to commercial sites removed by Admin]
Your attempt is moot. I have seen with my own eyes (for which I’m sure you will have a retort, however flaccid it will be):
Upwards of 50 incidents where animals were treated successfully with homeopathy when the owner was vehemently opposed to the treatment, but had exhausted conventional treatment.
One horse owner I recall quite clearly had an answer for everything. The fact that his answers were completely impotent was of no consequence to him.
He said the only reason his horse was better was placebo effect. He was then asked how his horse developed anticipation and belief in the treatment.
By your so-called logic: if it was “placebo by proxy” then the horse should have gotten worse, not better.
The horse was being treated by the owner who so vehemently believed that homeopathy was rubbish.
The owner had no answer, but was so married to his beliefs that he uttered some nonsense and continued with his inflexible, inferior thinking.
He begrudgingly administered the homeopathic to his horse despite his beliefs to the contrary.
I’m sorry you cling so egotistically to your celebrated ignorance. There is no hope for you or your limited capacity.
“I have seen with my own eyes”
My Gran smoked 20 cigarettes all her life and never had lung cancer
ergo
smoking does not cause cancer???
So rude, probably just a troll for Big Pharm that forced Heel’s Traumeel out of the USA. Only to be reintroduced and used by Orthopedic Surgeons, Neurologists, Sports Medicine Clinic, and Veterinarians. Yes, can can get Traumeel in ampoule injectables, gel, tablets, and creams. Or in Europe, especially Germany where Heel was created as a company.
Studies also confirm the benefits over placebos and NSAIDS. For anyone with platelet concerns or ulcer issues(especially a concern with horses who are prone to ulcers) but need reduction of inflammation, Traumeel works differently than NSAIDS. There are numerous studies but I thought Mr Sceptic might like the sites reliability and credibility! LOL
Karen Nolan RN
(SLE/Lupus survivor and Equestrian)
https://www.google.com/search?gs_ssp=eJwFwUEKgCAQAEC6RufOHrq7G6uIT-gXsqsRClaC2O-bmRd9asTxCJabYPIbDOcgMZARESZ0ycMwFklYJCWycedj5d5UyzVfUfVQSvzUW4P8WJAXzQ&q=cvs+skokie+valley+road&oq=cvs+skokie&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j46i175i199i512j0i512j46i175i199i512l2.8481j0j4&client=ms-android-verizon&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8
“Meanwhile gmo corn and now salmon is greenlighted in the u.s.”
What is your point; that GMO is bad, or you just don’t understand anything about it? Humans have been genetically modifying their food for thousands of years.
@ Jeanne M-C
Take a look at this page concerning Traumeel ingredients. In fairness, these dilutions are not at the often-used 30C level so there is probably still some detectable material in the product. That still doesn’t prove it has any measurable clinical effect beyond people convincing themselves.
Hi. You believe that anyone that tries traumeel hasn’t got a clue whether the product works at all, as we have apparently convinced ourselves that it does work regardless of whether it does or not. I have used traumeel for years and I know(KNOW) that it works and works well and works fast. When I first used it it worked and that is why I continue to use it now. Do you really think people are that dumb that they don’t know when something works for them? That is a tragedy. The other tragedy is that we can no longer purchase it in North America and have to order it from Germany.
@ Joan on Tuesday 22 November 2016 at 14:54
“Hi. You believe that anyone that tries traumeel hasn’t got a clue whether the product works at all, as we have apparently convinced ourselves that it does work regardless of whether it does or not.”
Yes, that is correct.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo
“I have used traumeel for years and I know(KNOW) that it works and works well and works fast.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo
“When I first used it it worked and that is why I continue to use it now.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
“Do you really think people are that dumb that they don’t know when something works for them? That is a tragedy.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo
“The other tragedy is that we can no longer purchase it in North America and have to order it from Germany.”
Find another placebo. It should “work” just as well.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3085232/
Due to a change from the original Traumeel ingredients, replacement products, T-Relief and T-Relief Arthritis, fail to work. I’ve tried them repeatedly and have been sadly disappointed. Sad that others must suffer poor substitutions and are given products that offer worse symptoms than they “cure” because BIG Pharma and AMA feel so threatened by homeopathic cures.
@Lady Ellerbeen
LOL!
Is there even a jot of good evidence it has ever worked?
But your claim that ‘Big Pharma’ and the AMA are threatened is laughable and very silly.
Absolutely true that big pharma does not want homeopathic products to wirk and they ruined it for us who used Traumeel. It most certainly does work!
now, that’s a convincing argument!!!
LOL! And what evidence do you have for any of that?
There are more details on some of the aspects now; someone just sent me this:
In 2013, Heel entered into a settlement agreement under which, without admitting wrongdoing, it agreed to stop making the challenged claims and pay $1 million into a settlement fund that will be used to reimburse product buyers—or, if funds remain after claims are paid, to a non-profit organization or organizations dedicated to informing consumers or advocating on their behalf about deceptive drug labeling concerns. The other suit concerned the sending of unsolicited faxes which claimed that Heel’s Engystol product would “strengthen the natural immune response and boost defenses to better deal with viral infections such as influenza, cold sores and feverish conditions.” That case was settled with an agreement under which Heel would make $6 million available to claimants, with a provision that if individual claims did not total at least $615,000, the difference between that number and the claims amount would be distributed to several charities. The plaintiff’s attorneys were awarded $2 million plus $170,000 for costs. Homeowatch has a detailed article about Heel’s history.
Lets put that in perspective Amgen who were found guilty of off label/fraudulent claims was ordered to pay $762 million in damages. The other thing is that if a person chooses to take a sugar pill and they experience a cessation of symptoms that have been bothering them and they are willing to pay for these, why shouldn’t they be able to use this? as far as i’m aware there is no gov. funding for homeopathy so it really comes down to how they choose to spend their $. The big plus is that there are no side effects so really homeopathy should be the first port of call – can the body fix this (using the placebo effect) if the patient gets sugar pills? if no then is there a drug that will work. The other thing is that drugs utilise the placebo effect as well, in fact some drugs are only slightly more effective than the placebo effect however as they have costs billions they are marketed aggressively this is how they recoup their investment but also increase the effectiveness due to the placebo effect.
http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/amgen-inc-pleads-guilty-federal-charge-brooklyn-ny-pays-762-million-resolve-criminal
your ‘perspective’ is that of a guy who claims it is ok for a few people to get harmed in train crashed because so many more die in road traffic accidents.
your claim ‘no side effects’ is equally barmy: homeopaths believe they can use their placebos for vaccinating kids, treating Ebola and all sorts of other serious conditions. thus, giving credit to them means endangering many lives. NO SIDE EFFECTS? just read a bit what info is available on this blog, and think again.
More news from a press release [http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/medinatura-inc-announces-agreement-to-purchase-heel-inc-261290611.html] :
PHILADELPHIA, May 30, 2014 /PRNewswire/ — MediNatura™ Incorporated, a Delaware Corporation headquartered in greater Philadelphia, today announced an agreement to purchase the Heel Group’s USA operations, which is expected to be completed in late August 2014. Completion of the stock transfer is subject to standard closing procedures.
Current Heel Inc. products will be available to USA distributors through August 2014, and to retailers and medical practitioners through December 2014.
“We remain committed to serving the needs of our practitioners, retailers and the many people that rely on these medicines, while providing outstanding customer service throughout this transition,” said Jocelyn Levesque, MediNatura’s vice president of sales, and director of sales for Heel Inc.
MediNatura’s line of over-the-counter (OTC) products will be available to distributors and retailers beginning January 1, 2015. The following retail brands will be reformulated: ClearLife™ (allergy), Reboost™ (cold/flu), WellMind™ (calming, focus) and BodyAnew™ Cleanse. All will be available in the same dosage forms and sizes as currently sold.
The OTC Heel products Traumeel* and Zeel* will be phased out and replaced with T-Relief™ and T-Relief Arthritis™ from MediNatura. These products will be available in the same dosage forms and sizes as were Traumeel and Zeel, and will feature all-natural active ingredients. The BHI line of products will remain unchanged.
“MediNatura is dedicated to manufacturing and distributing high quality, FDA-regulated products, just as we did as Heel Inc.,” said Scott Mitchell, MediNatura’s vice president of operations and director of operations for Heel Inc.
Heel’s OTC products currently sold exclusively to medical practitioners will be replaced by MediNatura’s OTC product line, most of which will be priced 40 percent lower than current products. OTC Heel brands with international trademarks will be discontinued, including: Traumeel, Neurexan, Zeel, Oculoheel, Luffeel, Sinusin, Vinceel, Nectadyn, Adrisin, Gripp Heel, Viburcol, Vertigoheel, Spascupreel, Engystol and Lymphomyosot.*
“We know people can improve their lives by making healthy lifestyle choices, healthy food choices and healthy medicine choices,” said Cliff Clive, CEO of Heel Inc., and founder and CEO of MediNatura. “MediNatura’s mission is to improve lives with medicines from nature.”
According to a homeopath on Twitter, MediNatura are going to ‘re-formulate’ the products. Just how they will change ‘ingredients’ that are currently in quantities of 10% down to 1 part in 10,000,000 isn’t clear…
MediNatura has reformulated products, and they no longer work for me! I have used Traumeel, Sinusin and Lufeel for years, I am chemical/medication sensitive, and these products were my only relieve! I have nerve pain in my face and left side of my head, neck and shoulder, Traumeel was the only thing I could use that brought me any relieve. The new remedy, T-Relief, is basically worthless, it helps a bit, but I have to use a lot with only slight relieve! I am very upset by this change!
But the content of the reformulated product is exactly the same. Congratulations: you have provided an anecdotal history that for once shows up the flimsy self-deception that underpins homeopathy.
Perhaps, but given the sheer number of recalls of ‘natural’ products discovered to contain undeclared active pharmaceuticals, there is the reasonable possibility that the differences experienced by people like Sue are based on reality. Perhaps, just perhaps, the original products did contain undeclared genuine pharmaceuticals, whereas the reformulated products no longer contain them. That would certainly be a plausible explanation for the lack of relief they now experience.
If you read the content label of T-reief and Traumeel as I have just done you will see that they are NOT the same, although several ingredients are the same. The dosages are different on many ingredients and two homeopathics are left out of T-Relief while two others are added not in Traumeel.
@SH
Can you list the ingredients so we can see the differences?
it is worthless! Traumeel worked great for my senior dog suffering with arthritis. MediNatura formula is garbage. I am researching to see if I can order the original Traumeel from another country.
I got it from a pharmacy at the Frankfort airport, took a couple of weeks to arrive.
How can you tell?
@Janni Connolly
Our oldest dog has arthritis and we can tell how bad it is at any time as she sometimes limps more or less and retreats to her pen when she has a bout of it.
We are kind to her, give her water and food and let her rest at home when we take the other dogs on longer walks. No specific treatment for the arthritis.
If we would use Traumeel, then how could we tell if it was the Traumeel and not just natural, cyclic changes in the disease intensity? She always gets better again after having a bad period, so I am afraid I wouldn’t be able to tell what caused the improvement, right?
We always give her the same food pellets so can it be something in the water since we don’t use Traumeel?
Bjorn- it appears we are in different countries, so treatments and supplements will differ. May I ask why you do not give your dog anything to give relief from the arthritis? It is very treatable. I am in the U.S., my dog is 11. I use homeopathic treatment over opioid painkillers with side effects. Traumeel is not available in some countries now. If you’d like, I can suggest some supplements and treatments. Do you have hydrotherapy, laser therapy, acupuncture?
Janice said:
Have you bothered to read any other articles on this website?
@Jannice
Sure sounds fancy and impressive but why do you name these useless alternatives?
“Hydrotherapy” ? – She sure gets a warm bath once in a while but it doesn’t seem to help with the arthritis. She hates the water. A warm environment, a nice cuddle and gentle massage are much better and make her happy and content. Water exercise can be excellent help in rehabilitating a dog, a horse or whatever, after surgery or disease. A warm bath is soothing for arthritic joints in all animals including humans but thinking that water splashing does anything more is plain silly.
“Laser therapy” ? – Did you know that a low energy laser, like some physiotherapists and some gullible vet’s use, is just an advanced flashlight and has not been proven to work at all on anything?
Shining it on the fur of a dog usually doesn’t even penetrate through to the skin to any significant extent. If it is powerful enough to penetrate to joints or deeper tissues to deliver significant energy effect (heat), it will burn the skin!
Doesn’t work in humans so why should it work in dogs through the fur??
Can’t think of a sillier pseudo-thing at the moment. But it’s good business for the vet.
“Acupuncture” ? – Doesn’t work on humans so why would it work on old dogs? Not only does research show that acupuncture is not the “age old therapy form” many people still think it was, but a modern “invention” from no experience or research at all. It has also failed to show any effect over wishful thinking. Acupuncture is being removed from arthritis therapy guidelines all over the world because it has failed to prove useful both in research and by experience. It just doesn’t work.
Animal acupuncture isn’t even based on the “age old oriental wisdom”. It was made up from nothing by veterinarian fools in search of easy money.
Sticking pins in suffering dogs or other animals is not “therapy”, it is ABUSE.
There is a number of reasons why such useless “therapies” seem to work when applied in good faith. A guy named Barry Beyerstein wrote an enlightening article about this some time ago. Try Google-ing it.
If you think placebo effect doesn’t work with dogs just consider who is the one interpreting the signs and symptoms of the dog… it’s you the placebo effect is working on.
As for what really works for dogs with arthritis…
Firstly they should get enough exercise but not overly strenuous. Joint protection is the key. Don’t for example let an arthritic dog jump down from the car.
Second, their weight should be kept down. It is sad to see dogs with arthritis in weight bearing joints suffer unnecessarily because the silly owners think they are being nice to them by giving them tidbits.
A little extra calories will easily result in obesity, which in turn exacerbates the joint problem.
There are very effective medications that can be given to dogs for arthritis. Some can be given just once a month because of the different metabolism in the dog. But as all effective therapy, it has its side effects and should be used with care and caution. Because our dog is not suffering so badly and has other factors that contraindicate the use of NSAID’s we have chosen to hold off on that.
Please be kind to your animals but don’t let misguided vets empty your wallet with silly water splashing, fancy lights or injurious needles.
Frequently, ‘laser’ is used simply as a marketing hook: the products are rarely lasers and sometimes are just bright lights – the more colours the better! I doubt most quacks will appreciate or understand the difference and would be unable to give a coherent explanation…
“Not only does research show that acupuncture is not the “age old therapy form” many people still think it was, but a modern “invention” from no experience or research at all.”
Bjorn, you should clarify that. You make it sound like modern acupuncture invented a new set of principles and theories – which of course would be silly. Modern Chinese Medicine is still based on yin/yang theory, five phase theory, etc. Just as it always has been.
When most folks talk about the reinvention of Chinese medicine, they’re talking about the move from individualistic medicine practices to systemic/institutionalized, the focus on needling protocols (rather than needling being a small part of a much larger set of tools and techniques), etc.
Maybe this could be a followup, after you finish writing up your gua sha post.
Jm, you seem to be contradicting your previous statements on Prof. Ernst’s website…
“Acupuncture, it appears, at no time played a dominant role in Chinese health care. No reliable history of acupuncture is available in Western languages or Chinese.”, which you quoted from the Acupuncture Today interview with Dr. Paul Unschuld.
http://edzardernst.com/2016/03/acupuncture-what-are-the-main-fallacies/#comment-75389
Pete,
Not sure what you’re thinking there. There’s no debate that TCM and Chinese medicine previous to TCM are based the same principles and theories (yin/yang, five phase, etc). At least for the last couple thousand years.
TCM has “reinvented” Chinese medicine in that acupuncture is now playing a dominant role (rather than pharmacology or tuina), standardized treatment protocols seem to be the norm, aspects have been simplified, things like that. But, TCM didn’t invent yin/yang theory, five phase theory, disease causing factors, etc – as I’m sure you and everyone else knows.
Just to clarify.
“Chinese traditional Medicine” (to use Paul Unschuld’s nomenclature) before the modern reinvention was not an effective medical system. The product of said reinvention “Traditional Chinese Medicine” is no better, be it based on the same prescientific philosophical fantasies or not.
Thanks for your clarification, Björn — that was the point that I was attempting to make.
Appeals to any form of the various forms acupuncture over the centuries are simply appeals to “prescientific philosophical fantasies”, which have been clearly demonstrated to be exactly what they are: fantasies; fantasy-based ‘medicine’; quackery.
Bjorn, I meant clarify what you mean by “modern invention”. But that was close enough – thanks!
ugh. I liked the products. I used the products. My homeopath is trying to figure out what to use instead of the compositums no longer available. She states she is not going to buy yours.
Since, above 6C, there is unlikely to be even one molecule of the original substance in the product, they are all identical water/lactose/sucrose, so it matters not what other brand she buys for her customers.
She certainly won’t be buying mine – I don’t sell sugar pills, nor would I: my ethics and principles would never allow it.
Actually, that should be 12C (Avogadro’s constant is roughly 6X10^23/mol). 6C preparations will still have some of the starting material left, although at a 1 in a trillion dilution it may not be readily detectable. What sort of level of contaminants is likely to be present in the solvent?
@Mojo
Ha! Well spotted. You’re right, of course, I should have said 12C or 24X.
I should also have added that the homeopathic products had to be competently made such that dilutions were not contaminated by less dilute solutions.
IMPORTANT : Since the homeopathic succussion is the process involving fractionalization ,How high be the potency avogadro hypothesis limit is redundant , as the dilution is carried forward, the no of molecules reduces but will never become zero.Just as absolute zero is un- attainable.The reduction in dilution is able to increase the speed of the ever moving solute particles in the solvent . As the dilution is increased particles speed and the mean free path of the solute i.e. the drug molecules in the solution increases as collisions become less and hence according to Hanenmann /’organon’ potency increases.Twitter.com/heritageimpex
@harsh v maheshwary,
“IMPORTANT : Since the homeopathic succussion is the process involving fractionalization ,How high be the potency avogadro hypothesis limit is redundant , as the dilution is carried forward, the no of molecules reduces but will never become zero.Just as absolute zero is un- attainable.The reduction in dilution is able to increase the speed of the ever moving solute particles in the solvent . As the dilution is increased particles speed and the mean free path of the solute i.e. the drug molecules in the solution increases as collisions become less and hence according to Hanenmann /’organon’ potency increases.Twitter.com/heritageimpex”
Well, this is interesting, as well as complete nonsense.
1. Dubious science – fractionalization; a term used out of context to create an impression of understanding. Molecules do not “fractionalise” and retain their compound signature.
2. More dubious science – “as the dilution is carried forward, the no of molecules reduces but will never become zero”. At some point, the likelihood of a molecule will reach zero. There is no such thing as the ever-present molecule. At some point, it will be flushed out.
3. Believe it or not, more DS – “Just as absolute zero is un- attainable”. Incorrect and pointless analogy.
4. More DS? Yep – “The reduction in dilution is able to increase the speed of the ever moving solute particles in the solvent”. I think Einstein proved otherwise. Speed of particles is a function of their energy.
5. Complete nonsense? Who would have thought? – “As the dilution is increased particles speed and the mean free path of the solute i.e. the drug molecules in the solution increases as collisions become less and hence according to Hanenmann /’organon’ potency increases.” And this from a person who is interested in astrology? Surely not?
More nonsense here;
https://twitter.com/heritageimpex
You really mean that western science is incapable of measuring the molecules in any homeopthaic remedy above 6C.
Just because a blind person can’t see a truck does not mean it doesn not exist.
Remeber that only 11% of western medical treatments are fully proven and 53% lack any credible proof at all (study published in British Medical Journal 2014).
and where did you learn these nonsensical notions?
http://clinicalevidence.bmj.com/x/set/static/cms/efficacy-categorisations.html
this is a statistic on ~4000 selected treatments; they include alt med; the figures do not reflect how often these treatments are actually used in routine care.
and what about your nonsensical/false statement about C6 ???
get your act together!
Ah. Another one who doesn’t understand what the bmj Clinical Evidence page says.
Anyway, you said
So what? If there is no good evidence that homeopathic products have any specific effects over placebo, there’s little point in looking for wayward molecules.
No. What is meant is that western science is incapable of measuring molecules that are not there, which is exactly as it should be.
Just because Warren Buffett is not perfect, does not mean we should go to Bernie Madoff.
Mr. Ernst please read. You says: “~3000 treatments”
No, stupid and incompetent pseudoresearcher:
“Clinical Evidence selects around 3000 treatments”
I am not surprised this has happened.
I am relieved to know there are many other homeopathic manufacturers that homeopathic practitoners in the US can get products from. This is not a new fight, this site does not promote new ideas regarding homeopathic remedies.
I take heart in knowing that the American Medical Association was originally founded as a political organization to fight against the popular homeopathic practitioners who were a threat to their livelihood. This is not a new situation, there are numerous scholarly books that detail the long, bloody history of homeopathy in the US. If you take out the question of “Does homeopathy work?” and look at as purely a political fight, the story is fascinating.
@Heather Young,
“If you take out the question of “Does homeopathy work?””
Is the question of efficacy irrelevant? Is this an acknowledgement of your understanding that homeopathy can be no more than a placebo and you use it nonetheless?
~
“I take heart in knowing that the American Medical Association was originally founded as a political organization to fight against the popular homeopathic practitioners who were a threat to their livelihood. ”
LOL, “popular homeopathic practitioners” were also a threat to the lives of their customers but no amount of evidence will convince you.
It’s funny how simple minded people, that don’t use or understand a form of medicine, can put judgement on the subject. To read the BS from the Homeo-quacks, man, what a bunch of QUACKS in their beliefs! I have 25 years without a prescription drug of any kind.
You would probably die if you didn’t have your prescriptions!
I have over 40 working homeopathic remedies, most over 30 C! Yes, over 30 C works just fine!
When you question the dilution of homeopathy, then you should question the dilution of a Vaccine!
Rick
Pity you fail to back up any of your assertions and anecdote with even a jot of evidence. Now that is funny.
@Rick,
Putting aside the Ad Hominems, the rest of this post is curious.
“I have over 40 working homeopathic remedies, most over 30 C! Yes, over 30 C works just fine!
When you question the dilution of homeopathy, then you should question the dilution of a Vaccine!”
40 working remedies? How do you know they work? Do you understand “‘regression to the mean” or the concept of “self-limiting”?
Do you understand what a 30C dilution is? It is the original solution, itself a dilution, the diluted by 10 to the power of 30. Avogadro’s number is 6.022 x 10 to the 23, so that means the already dilute original solution less than 1.5 x 10 to the MINUS 7 molecules of the original substance; that means the original compound has been carved up into 10,000,000 pieces and retains its original properties. Anyone with a passing understanding of chemistry will know that is impossible.
“you should question the dilution of a Vaccine”
A vaccine works on a completely different principle. Do you have any understanding of even basic high school science? (Sorry, that was rhetorical.)
I was wrong!
I said this on the 12th of June;
“Do you understand what a 30C dilution is? It is the original solution, itself a dilution, the diluted by 10 to the power of 30. Avogadro’s number is 6.022 x 10 to the 23, so that means the already dilute original solution less than 1.5 x 10 to the MINUS 7 molecules of the original substance; that means the original compound has been carved up into 10,000,000 pieces and retains its original properties. Anyone with a passing understanding of chemistry will know that is impossible.”
I was wrong about the 30C dilution; it is not 10 to the power 30. I assumed, quite incorrectly, that it was the normal powers but it is, in fact, based on a C (100) which is 10 to the power 2. While my argument is not rendered invalid, what it does is cast a greater pall over the claims of homeopathy.
My paragraph should read thus;
Do you understand what a 30C dilution is? It is the original solution, itself a dilution, the diluted by 10 to the power of 60. Avogadro’s number is 6.022 x 10 to the 23, so that means the already dilute original solution less than 1.5 x 10 to the MINUS 37 molecules of the original substance; that means the original compound has been carved up into 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 pieces and retains its original properties. Even this calculation falls in favour of homeopathy by several factors of 10 because it assumes the original substance was 100% pure and not diluted. If it is factored in, several more zeroes should be added to the 37 shown above. Anyone with a passing understanding of chemistry will know that is impossible.
I am disappointed my error wasn’t pointed out.
“I am disappointed my error wasn’t pointed out.”
I didn’t bother because your error was minuscule compared to the deliberate errors committed by homeopathist who try so desperately hard to obfuscate the huge difference between the terms “quantum” and “quantized”.
Since we are posting our personal observations & OPINIONS, here is mine: You come across as someone who is EXTREMELY UNHAPPY with their life (very rude & condescending). I hope you find some peace soon.
@Renee Norman on Monday 18 January 2016 at 19:09
“Since we are posting our personal observations & OPINIONS, here is mine: You come across as someone who is EXTREMELY UNHAPPY with their life (very rude & condescending).”
Sorry Renee, some of this is not OPINION (you do love a good EMPHASIS), it is statement of scientific fact. You know, the same facts you use every day for your car, house appliance, phone, computer, airline travel, TV, radio, but which you dispute when it comes to something as basic as low level chemistry, and which homoeopathy contravenes.
As personal observations, from a scientific perspective, they are baseless. That is why studies have to designed to remove, as much as possible, the less than impartial nature of humans.
Now, the bit I love, “EXTREMELY UNHAPPY”; on that score you now have three strikes. Despite the absolute certainty of your judgement, based as it is on the barest of information, I can tell you I am a very happy person and enjoy life thoroughly. We (my wife and I) had the daughter of a friend stay here for two weeks until she found accommodation while touring Australia. She was very happy here, found my company enjoyable, and was sad to leave. Sorry to burst your pious bubble but you are not a good judge of people, not that you were ever likely to be. I’ve met many people like you and, generally, they are judgemental pains in the arse.
“I hope you find some peace soon.”
Too late. No doubt, you will find someone else who offends you simply by them having some rationality. There is a crass colloquialism in this country about inserting a broomstick and sweeping the floor on the way out, but I am too genteel to mention it. 🙂
I have no reason to be offended by your attitude, nor am I. In all sincerity, have a good day, Frank.
@Renee Norman on Tuesday 19 January 2016 at 17:21
“I have no reason to be offended by your attitude, nor am I. In all sincerity, have a good day, Frank.”
If that is the case, why did you write this, “very rude & condescending”, if you felt no offence?
If you want to engage on this blog, would you please write something sensible and on the subject matter? Posting pious Ad Hominems serves no useful purpose and makes you appear unintelligent.
No, it doesn’t. It promotes true ideas. That may not be new, but it does have the more important advantage of being better for patients’ health.
I dont know of any other homepathic practitioners! I only knew of one, my vet, who saved the life of my cat with kidney disease and now becuase of this and BIG Pharma my cat wont get reneel!!!
Its certainly not fair
WE ARE FREE IN THE US BUT ARE WE?>?>?>
WE are only as free as our govenemnt allows us to be and the governemnt is full of wackos who are always getting kick backs! How many of you know Drs who have gone to jail becuase of sone of the stuff they have pulled??? Probably not enough, yet simple formulas that are safe we now cant get?
How is that free???? The US is officially a comucapitalsit society where nothing matters but greed!
It is free enough for wackjobs like you to be able to have an opinion despite it being worthless.
After you learn to write correctly, how about learning some basic science so you don’t appear so stupid?
I know what you mean Peggy, I am very upset by this change which has just recently effected me! My acupuncturist is out of the original formulas and can’t get any more!
Have your acupuncturist find a new meridian to prick. Or to give you some homeopathic antimatter: I know a number of people who’ve found that even more effective than Traumeel.
Better yet, give her some drug with slightly better than placebo effects, after repeated “scientific” research corruption, with side effects, which are actually effects that are there but merely aren’t the ones we want, so she can ignore her symptoms and hopefully her body will recover on its own by the time she is over the side effects. Ahhhhhhh. Conventional medicine.
Don’t worry. By the time enough people have been injured by the medication, it will be taken off the market and replaced by a new, more dangerous and more expensive one.
@Edgar,
So all medical drugs are dangerous and do not cure or alleviate any diseases?
I repeat what I said above;
“It is free enough for wackjobs like you to be able to have an opinion despite it being worthless.
After you learn to write correctly, how about learning some basic science so you don’t appear so stupid?”
Let’s see….no one dies from homeopathic remedies but 100,000 Americans are killed (approx 270 per day year in and year out) by properly dispensed medications handed out by the allopaths and taken properly by the victims — and no one here gets their knickers in a knot about that. I guess you chaps never met a drug you didn’t like.
@SkepdocProf/SkepdicProf
Oh dear.
You have previously said:
There could be more…
Björn has already tried to educate you as to why your parroted numbers are wrong and don’t say what you believe they say, but I’m not sure where you are unwilling or incapable of understanding what has been said.
However, if you want to talk about this (not that it’s at all relevant to the subject of this blog post), please detail the numbers of lives saved by conventional medicine, the number of people living longer and with a higher quality of life because of conventional medicine, the number of babies who survive birth because of conventional medicine and the number of those who are suffering less and in less pain because of conventional medicine.
And then give the same numbers for your favourite alternative therapy.
Then we can have a proper and meaningful discussion about the relative merits of conventional medicines and alternative therapies.
It seems that everyone hs parroted numbers. I feel I’m watching CNN here. It certainly is funny.
@David,
Are you going to offer anything useful, or are meaningless posts the limit of your intellect?
Frank;
You are assuming that your comments are useful?
Tu quoque, troll.
Frank, you misspelled touché.
Why don’t you guys get a life and let us adults be in charge of our own medical choices. Go stop the druggies, the smokers, the drinkers, and all the other addicts that destroy their lives instead of trying to control what medical choices we make. You are getting the support of all the greedies that want and do make monies from your crusades. If there was not a lot of money to be made your quest would dry up and die like it should. There is no amount of anger I could ever express for you to step in and take over my right to make my own medical decisions especially when I am paying for them myself. You are sick, sick, sick, but you will never stop alternative medicine. You may slow it down and win a few battles, but you will never, never win the war.
I don’t think you understand: we do not wish to limit choice but increase the reliability of the information that guides choice.
@Jean
Spoken like a true adherent.
@Jean
I didn’t think to address this post but so many cliches, logical fallacies and general ignorance can’t go unchallenged.
“Why don’t you guys get a life and let us adults be in charge of our own medical choices. Go stop the druggies, the smokers, the drinkers, and all the other addicts that destroy their lives instead of trying to control what medical choices we make.”
Let’s take one by one;
“get a life”? Does this question whether people, who are concerned that hundreds if not thousands of years of scientific progress are disregarded, do not have an interest worth considering or pursuing? Is a concern for the best health outcome for others a symptom of an unhealthy life choice? What “life” does the questioner have that makes his/her life idealised?
” let us adults be in charge of our own medical choices”
Who are the “adults”? Those who make sweeping unsubstantiated comments or those who consider the evidence in support of their decisions?
“medical choices”
This is a rich picking so I am bit embarrassed to mine it, however, such a statement does raise the question of what is a “medical choice”. Is it anything for which the recipient is happy to pay? Does that make any “medical” choice equally valid and, therefore, equally efficacious? Does it mean the medical outcome of an offered treatment is only determined by the customers’ willingness to pay. Is there no objective means of assessment of medical validity or is personal “choice” the only determinant of what “works”?
“You are getting the support of all the greedies that want and do make monies from your crusades. If there was not a lot of money to be made your quest would dry up and die like it should.”
Apart from the general condemnation of all those concerned that science should affect what treatments are useful, there is the implication that we are all being paid by someone to do this. I don’t know about anyone else but I haven’t received a cent from anyone. The only thing that motivates me is that people will die because of the misinformation that some will receive and act on it.
“There is no amount of anger I could ever express for you to step in and take over my right to make my own medical decisions especially when I am paying for them myself.”
Is anger an emotion one is concerned with in relation to their health? Are you more concerned about making “your own” decision, or making a decision based on the best evidence? Does having the power to pay for a “treatment” make it the best treatment for your condition, or does it make it more palatable because you have the “right” to spend your money where you see fit?
“You are sick, sick, sick, but you will never stop alternative medicine. You may slow it down and win a few battles, but you will never, never win the war.”
No, the “war” may never be won because there will always be people who think they know better than all of the best research in the world. As for “sick, sick, sick”, probably not as sick as you will be by turning away from real health care. Who knows, it may be the only “real” choice about the future of humanity and Darwin will be be proved more right than he ever thought he would be? I only hope your “health choices” don’t kill anyone else, particularly some child who may die from a “simple” childhood illness such as measles?
Nobody is even attempting to control your choices. On the contrary. It is precisely because we love freedom, that we want as much objective information to be accessible to as many people as possible.
As for the druggies and drinkers: many of them claim that their favourite drugs make them more healthy, so you would be their enemy. Of course, they are sadly deluded. Have a good look at the waiting lists for drug treatment centres. They are full of people who once claimed that “the establishment” is trying to hide how beneficial these recreational drugs are.
Paraphrasing Cees Baas, a well-known homeopath: “Homeopathy is not nonsense, it really works, but if you have a condition that reflects a medical reality, you should go to a real doctor”. In other words: homeopathy is bunk, and homeopaths know it. That makes them quacks. In my personal opinion, that makes them murderers.
“Why don’t you guys get a life and let us adults be in charge of our own medical choices.”
Because homeopathy is not a medical choice. Homeopathy is not medicine: specifically, it does not, and cannot, cure any physiological or psychological illness. Homeopathy is a lucrative business that thrives on scaring people away from making *informed* medical choices.
If you wish to put your life in danger by making uniformed choices then by all means do so, but do not encourage others to follow your reckless behaviour — doing would be highly immoral.
You are completely and unequivocably WRONG. I have used homeopathic remedies for asthma and eliminated it, for c swelling and pain from broken bones and eliminated the pain, for bladder infections, etc. You have no idea what you are talking about so just…well. Stop.
have you heard? the plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not evidence!
LOL! Try reading a few of Prof Ernst’s other posts. You might just learn something about evidence.
heel products were one of our best products.I trust these products and as a practionner they worked for me as well. Traumeel was wonderfull product. we all used it and it worked.When will we wake up?why just Us and Canada?
Again…its a case of a great company who is smeared to profit someone else.
Thumbs down
mirelle
If only you could provide good, independent evidence for any of what you say…
Traumeel has a mercury compound as an ingredient. Why is it that anti-vax loonies attacked its use in MMR vaccines but don’t do the same thing with this?
The main preservative used in Vaccines is mercury!! That’s a fact!
[From the CDC: Thimerosal is a mercury-containing preservative used in vaccines and other products since the 1930’s]
Rick
And?
It’s an easy search – Vaccines & mercury – Read the one from the CDC
@Rick,
“The main preservative used in Vaccines is mercury!! That’s a fact!”
Really? The preservative that WAS used in vaccines was compound in which mercury was used – C9H9HgNaO2S. It isn’t used in most vaccines, for no other reason than to quieten the loons who jump at shadows.
As you can see, out of the 23 elements, only one is mercury. If you knew anything about chemistry (and my guess is you don’t), the elemental properties are not the same as those of the element in a compound. Using your logic about mercury, you wouldn’t use most “chemicals” because of, either, the toxicity of the individual elements or the combinations that are toxic in separate groups.
However, all of this presupposes that you are rational, and the short answer to that is: NO.
@Mireille,
Your profile shows you are have been a “practicing nurse for 40 years” and now you practice “BIO-IDENTICAL HORMONE REPLACEMENT THERAPY”. http://www.westmountwellnesscenter.com/mousseau.html
What fascinates me is that you have not learnt a single thing about science or the scientific method in 40 years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioidentical_hormone_replacement_therapy Even a single reading of this entry shows the “treatment” to be a sham nonsense, something only a nurse would believe. Actually, your bio is incorrect; since indulging in this nonsense, you have not been practicing nursing but witchcraft instead.
Aside from all the other arguments and discussions, I would just like to say that I have treated my dog several times in the last 6 years for sprains and various contusions with TRAUMEEL. Very successfully and speedily. The dog did not know that it was “placebo”. What am I going to use now? Some pain killer to ruin his liver? There is a lot of science out there forever changing depending on whose pocket the science resides. Lies and deception is the order of our world.
1) the correct dose of painkiller does not ruin the liver
2) what you observed was not the effect of homeopathy but the natural history of the condition.
Edzard. I run performance dogs….they work very hard at trials and are very sore (as am I at the days end). After trial days I give them traumeel which provides them muscle relief and therefore allows better relaxation and recovery for day 2 (and 3 and 4). There have been several instances where I forgot the traumeel at home and recovery is dramatically reduced and performance on following days is evident. This is not the natural history of the condition!
I too have taken Traumeel and see the same anti-inflammatory effects as when I take an Advil or Motrin. When I don’t take anything the natural history of the condition takes much longer to resolve.
Let’s be realistic here…and call it what it is!!!!
absolutely!
let’s call it what it is: your observation is anecdotal and thus unreliable. THE PLURAL OF ANECDOTE IS ANECDOTES, NOT EVIDENCE!
show me evidence and I will discuss it with you.
or explain to me why anecdotally observed outcomes seem to disappear, once we test them in a controlled clinical trial.
Good to see your comments. Traumeel works! Works for me, works for my dog ! Edzar is not saying anything that is proven in any solid convincing way. So we can talk and talk; the bottom line is that Pharma has deep pockets and they will do all possible to keep it that way and will discredit any competition using tactics that make you wonder re their true intentions. I will get Traumeel one way or another and will continue using it when needed. I reduces pain by reducing inflammation and that is it!!
and who do you think produces traumeel? a butcher? no, it is the pharma industry!
To this Edzard person…
Who are you ? What is your profession and how many times have you used heel products or even traumeel. You obviously have no idea the mechanism behind it.
I am a chiropractor and practice biopuncture . And the results I have got with traumeel is being called an angel and a messiah. Because of traumeel a woman with 18 years if back pain can shit without pain , without effecting her liver and kidneys, because she can take pain killers for 18 years continuously did I repeat continuously .. I have been able to relief a a pins and needles and burning pain of 10 years in his football and relieve his tennis elbow with no signs of return without any side effects.
And I’m hoping you know that if you would realise inflammation is needed for healing and traumeel REGULATES that not stops it. Perhaps if you apply general science like what a regulator does in a car is balance the currents , traumeel balances the inflammation. But as soon a coo on science is applied to our bodies it becomes unscientific .
. I run a practice with real people and real results and not sit in a lab practicing on mouse or dummies. If you have a practice that gets results maybe you would know. But obviously you are more focused on symptoms of people in a trial room than people that come to you for real help.. Think about it.. Your results in a clinic are the biggest results you will get.
I am sick people that are skeptics without trying. And if you want to be fine but please for all those people that want to get better like my patients and a lot of people on this thread, I would like real medicine to be there for us.
@ Nikita,
There is so much wrong with this post, it is hard to know where to start, however;
“Perhaps if you apply general science like what a regulator does in a car is balance the currents , traumeel balances the inflammation.”
A regulator does NOT balance currents in a car, its purpose to maintain a constant voltage in a car’s electrical system so that electrical and electronic devices can operate within their design parameters, and work properly and safely. An alternator (which produces the electrical energy) is driven by the car’s motor and, as such, operates from, roughly, 500 to 8,000 or more rpm. No electrical device can produce a constant voltage over that wide a range of operation and it is the regulator (usually integral to the alternator) that keeps the voltage as constant as possible. So much for applying “general science” when you have no know idea how something works?
“Who are you ? What is your profession and how many times have you used heel products or even traumeel. You obviously have no idea the mechanism behind it.”
Professor Ernst can be found by a simple Google search, along with his impressive CV. I’m surprised you would even ask such a pointless question. As to the “mechanism”, it must be magic because homeopathic solutions are at such dilutions, there is little, if any, of the original compounds. This is one of the “general science” things we refer to as “chemistry”; that branch of science responsible for many of the huge advances in materials we use in our everyday lives. You may know of some of them; paints, cars, houses, plastics, computers, medicines, that sort of “stuff”.
“I am a chiropractor and practice biopuncture .(sic)” and “I would like real medicine to be there for us.”
Ahhh, the nub of it. Since you are a chiropractor, you’ve been trained in magic and are happy to believe in it; innate energy, subluxations, the wacky table thing, applied kinesiology, the little box thing that finds problems that don’t exist, the list goes on.
My question for you is; if/when you get a cancer, will you put your trust in homeopathy, or will you see a medical oncologist?
This Edzard person is the world’s first professor of alternative medicine, who has spent decades studying stuff like homoeopathy.
This Nikita individual, on the other hand, sounds like someone with the knowledge of a demented parsnip who has watched too much Oprah and Dr. Oz.
Too know what chiropractic is all about: there are links on the right side of this page. That way ==>
Edzard – Do you watch TV, Do you listen to the list of side effect including death from using the drug the right way. You should go over to the FDA web site and check out the lists of pages of dangerous drugs, that have the black box warning for being people killers, and that by the way, are still being used and sold. Have you ever heard on the TV commercials for Chantex, that it is a black box drug? That it has killed and injured over 5,000 people!
Did you know that before prescription drugs came to be, There were mainly homeopathy hospital in the USA? When the pharmacy started they found that they could treat people faster with the same drugs, note: that’s where side effect came from! Not everyone can take the same drug safely!!
Humor your self and go to the FDA and see where the drugs you take are rated.
Rick
In the UK, it is illegal to advertise prescription-only medicines to the public, so there are none of the ads that are prevalent on US TV. The ads in the US are, indeed, a sight to behold and I don’t know why they continue to be permitted – I suspect they cause only harm and waste.
However, you’re not one of those silly people who believes all the side effects on the Patient Information Leaflet are mandatory, are you?
But you make a claim about homeopathy ‘hospitals’: perhaps you could provide some evidence?
Alan – This is a good read for you…..
Long before Hahnemann’s death, however, homeopathy had already begun to spread to two very influential countries – England and the United States. Queen Adelaide, wife of King William IV of England, and niece to Duke Ernst of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha is credited with bringing homeopathy to England.
http://www.drmasiello.com/homeopathy/history-of-homeopathy/
The new trial with 449 patients shows that Traumeel ointment and gel reduce the pain and help restore the function and mobility of the joint as effectively as diclofenac gel.
Most commonly used non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs to date are cyclooxygenase inhibitors such as diclofenac. In order to alleviate the painful symptoms of a strain, they suppress the bodies’ natural inflammatory response to injuries. If they are used for the longer term, they can harm the stomach lining, the heart and the kidneys.
Traumeel has been on the market for more then 60 years
http;//www,heel,com/upload/heel_com_press_2012_Heel_Traumeel_vs_Diclofenac_EN_9772,pdf
That’s exactly the same as your post about it yesterday. See the responses there from Björn Geir and Frank Collins.
sabina
Yep. Science keeps changing. That’s how it works.
But you might like to read the following:
Alternative medicine: it works in animals and children…
Homeopathy Does NOT Work On Babies or Animals!
Why Bogus Therapies Seem to Work
@Sabina
And neither did the dog tell you that it felt better. The assessment that the dog had improved was made by you, and you knew that the Traumeel had been administered.
Ha! Ha! You really have never had anything to do with dogs!!!! Dogs are smart and they do “talk”. but the obvious sign that the pain was gone, was that he stopped yelping when the sight of the injury was touched using various degrees of pressure. We went through this several times in his 6 years of life, so I am not basing my observations on one incident. Traumeel assists the natural process of heeling, speeds it up considerably and really works. Thank you.
Sorry, Sabina, I couldn’t resist…
“Traumeel assists the natural process of heeling, speeds it up considerably and really works.” Did you mean healing, or does it work really well during dog training? Being homeopathic, it will doubtless seem to work in any way that the buyer believes the product will work.
On a very serious note, I managed to save the life of my desperately ill puppy by eventually finding a vet who totally rejected all forms of quackery.
Of course they do. Next time you talk to your dog, you should compare notes about statistics and setting up clinical trials. He may teach you a thing or two.
I have had active hunting dogs for over 30 years. Never felt the need for an otc product. A bit of time and rest takes care of sprains, bruises etc. The same would happen with or without a $20+ tube of magic. I would like to think that I have more brains than money.
Traumeel works. Don’t knock it till you’ve tried it.
I’ll be stocking up before August 31. I’m so sad to see this product unjustly stripped from the shelves. It feels like a little bit more of our freedom has been taken with it.
any evidence?
Andy said:
If only you could provide good evidence for your claim.
And with that statement, goes all hope that you have any understanding of what good evidence is.
What about this conclusion from a peer-reviewed journal article about Traumeel?
“Conclusion: There is a growing evidence-base supporting the effectiveness of Traumeel, alone and in combination with other medicines and/or nonmedicine therapies, in treating acute musculoskeletal injuries. Traumeel appears to be well tolerated, with no signs of severe adverse events and no evidence of gastrointestinal bleeding.63 NSAIDs may cause gastrointestinal ulceration and bleeding, and are a particular risk for patients with diseases, on co-medications, or who are elderly. A recent consensus by international experts on “muscle strains” concluded against automatic prescription of a NSAID for all muscle strains, as they may predispose to recurrences by masking pain.64 However, they also agreed that controlling inflammation may be beneficial to minimize early damage and subsequent loss of function.64 Traumeel may thus provide an alternative anti-inflammatory and analgesic agent for these patients.”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3085232/
always look at the totality of the reliable evidence! and that shows : “Despite mostly positive findings and high ratings on the Jadad score, the placebo-controlled, randomised clinical trials of homotoxicology fail to demonstrate the efficacy of this therapeutic approach” [http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=ernst+e+homotoxicology]
To this Edzard person…
Who are you ? What is your profession and how many times have you used heel products or even traumeel. You obviously have no idea about the mechanism behind it. Do you know DR. JAN KERSSCHOT an M.D is a pioneer in inventing biopuncture using traumeel. The treatments in U.K and Germany being practiced by medical doctors..
I am a chiropractor and I practice biopuncture and the results I have got with traumeel is being called an angel and a messiah. Because of traumeel a woman with 18 years of back pain can shit without pain , without effecting her liver and kidneys, because she can’t take pain killers for 18 years continuously did I repeat continuously .. I have been able to relief pins and needles and burning pain of 10 years in football player and relieve his tennis elbow with no signs of return without any side effects.
And I’m hoping you know that if you would realise inflammation is needed for healing and traumeel REGULATES that rather that stop it. Perhaps if you apply general science like what a regulator does in a car is that it balances the currents , traumeel balances the inflammation. But as soon a common science is applied to our bodies it becomes unscientific .
. I run a practice with real people and real results and not sit in a lab practicing on mouse or dummies. If you have a practice that gets results maybe you would know. But obviously you are more focused on symptoms of people in a trial room than people that come to you for real help.. Think about it.. Your results in a clinic are the biggest results you will get.
I am sick of people that are skeptics without trying. And if you want to be fine but please for all those people that want to get better like my patients and a lot of people on this thread, I would like real medicine to be there for us.
nikita
Many websites have an ‘About’ page that informs visitors about the website and/or the people behind it. Fortunately, this website follows that tradition. You should try reading it – you might learn something.
You could also try looking up all the sources of bias; a good place to start is – believe it or not – Wikipedia: Experimenter’s bias.
And you might find this interesting: Why Bogus Therapies Seem to Work.
Once you’ve done that, please come back and tell us where this Jan Kershott has published his/her results and tell us which you believe is the most compelling evidence.
Biopuncture!!! Is this for real? If I understand this correctly they are injecting homeopathic dilutions along with lidocaine. I thought there was some kind of health consumer protection in the US to protect the gullible from charlatans.
The inventiveness of the unhinged never ceases to astonish.
Under threat of class action lawsuit, maker of “homeopathic” medicine settles, and exits North America
Dear BJorn
If u think homeopathy doesn’t work or is nothing , why do u have to protected. I don’t have time to refute your 10 cent worth statement.
Please takes Edzards advice and learn something. It’s definitely valid for you.
Regards
Dr. Nikita Mohan
No, I quite understand. It would take considerable time to refute the truth. Two centuries of trying have failed in the case of homeopathy.
If I can guess as to what you are alluding to (it is not a very good idea to write public posts under the influence?), then may I suggest you learn how to consult Google.
Dear Edzard
So kind of you to assume I’m not learning anything. Obviously In your eyes I’m running a practice without any learning and my patients are all silly , choosing to pay for chiropractic and biopuncture treatment rather than the free bulk billed visits they get.
Obviously I’m not doing learning which is why I have a licence to practice and , that is why I have return patients because they think I’m doing no difference in their lives and they just have soo much money that they decide to give it to me.
It’s quite conceited to think that you are the only one learning here.
I am not sure if you’re too busy defending this site rather than reading or perhaps thinking outside the realm of what you are taught. It seems you’re too focused on papers that you assume what a study says is above and beyond what what a Patient in your clinic feels.
I don’t do my learning just by reading I learn from every difference I make in my patients life, perhaps that’s the difference in our learning that you just learn from books and papers and in edition to books and papers my biggest learning is from my patients. From one doctor to another maybe you should try it to.
Mr. Jan Kershott , has written many books on biopuncture which obviously you have read before commenting in my learning. There’s many papers on traumeel , which is one of the main antihimotixic remedies he uses.
But I’m sure you’ll find some negative, because it’s not the study that satisfies you.
I spend more time learning new techniques so I can constantly help my patients and give them more options
I’m am currently doing a course in homotoxicology , run by Medical Doctors. Which I assume you know what it’s about since you do a lot of learning .
And if you say it’s all placebo, well then isn’t a placebo effect that heals is better than one with side effects.
And have you ever tried homeopathy? , I mean I have had conventional treatment and homepathy to compare but can you really compare without trying.
It’s like comparing two dishes without eating one. How about you try it ?
It’s sad this in their educated world we should be building bridges to provide the best treatment option for the patient rather than constantly criticising what we aren’t aware of.
Kind regards
Dr. Nikita Mihan
I see appeal to popularity, appeal to authority, accuation of closed-mindedness, appeal to other ways of knowing, appeal to personal experience/anecdote, “does it matter if it’s a placebo if placebos work”, complaint about side-effects in medicine…
We should have some bingo cards made up.
…and an unbelievable lack of self-awareness/
Nikita said
Sorry: I’ve obviously misused the blockquote facility. (I wish we could preview comments, Edzard!)
Here’s what I wanted to post.
Nikita said: “It’s like comparing two dishes without eating one. How about you try it ?”
I like this comment. Apply it homeopathy. On one plate you have a half piece of food that has been sequentially diluted beyond Avogadro’s limits. Visible on the plate is nothing at all. On the other plate is the other half piece of food, clearly visible. Which one would you eat if hungry?
More on Heel’s troubles: :
Heel, Inc. homeopathic manufacturer must “dial down” health claimsHomeopathic product maker settled a class action suit against their claims about efficacy. It’s not much and it SHOULD be more. That is, they should be made to say it has NO active ingredients.
Homeopathic Drugmaker Puts Up $1M To End False Ad Claims – Law360. *Paywalled article
The Heel company will refund up to $150 per buyer for those that request it. They also agreed to add disclaimers clarifying the scientific underpinnings of its marketing of drugs. Gee, I wonder what that will look like.
According to their wikipedia page, they have a long-running problem with labeling their products. Previously known as BHI, in 1984 they were warned by the FDA that they were in violation of federal regulations with regards to marketing their remedies.
I found another interesting thing about Heel, a German-based company. They were one of the group of German companies that paid a journalist to smear scientists who were speaking out against homeopathy.
Their revenue in 2011 was $251 million. So, this settlement is small potatoes.
It seems there is evidence after all…
http://www.orthospinenews.com/study-shows-statistically-significant-and-clinically-relevant-pain-relief-for-knee-osteoarthritis-with-co-administered-traumeel-and-zeel-intra-articular-injections
Is there?
One study only that wasn’t published in a journal nor added to Cochrane? No analysis of the method of the study or the statistical methods?
Traumeel cream was recommended by my orthopedic physician. It has been a lifesaver for various pain that I suffer at 83. I have been trying to find where I can order it, most likely another country. T=Relief is not as effective, unfortunately.
Jeanette Denton said:
I’m glad you’re better now, but there’s no good reason to suppose it was Traumeel that caused it.
I think your surgeon knows you are susceptible to suggestion. That is why he “prescribed” an ointment with no active ingredient in it.
The new trial with 449 patients shows that Traumeel ointment and gel reduce the pain and help restore the function and mobility of the joint as effectively as diclofenac gel.
Most commonly used non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs to date are cyclooxygenase inhibitors such as diclofenac. In order to alleviate the painful symptoms of a strain, they suppress the bodies’ natural inflammatory response to injuries. If they are used for the longer term, they can harm the stomach lining, the heart and the kidneys.
Traumeel has been on the market for more then 60 years
http;//www,heel,com/upload/heel_com_press_2012_Heel_Traumeel_vs_Diclofenac_EN_9772,pdf
@Rick
That is because diclofenac gel is another well known placebo rub-on. It has a very low bioavailability at about 6% compared to oral intake and a very shallow penetration. This low absorption is not enough for an effect but probably for some side effects. Its effect is in the rubbing/massage, as is the case with all such rub-on placebos. This study only tells us that both have a similar effect. What is missing is the comparison with any other inert carrier gel or ointment, which would have shown that it was just as (in)effective. This study is in effect a hoax, designed and performed to be able to use its predictable results commercially as demonstrated under the link you gave.
All effective medications have side effects. Nothing new there. If Traumeel has no side effects, then it does not have any effects either. Same applies to diclofenac gel.
That is why doctors should always inform about common side effects, take the patient’s general health and other problems into consideration in relation to the side effect risk of long-term use and monitor for adverse signs of side effects when that is called for.
Which proves absolutely nothing.
Any kind of ointment or rub-on is popular for self-limiting musculoskeletal problems. That is why the instructions call for thorough rubbing 😉
@Rick,
You cite a press release both the company selling the stuff as “evidence”? Tres humorous.
Read Bjorn’s comments in this sub-thread to show how little you know about the subject.
Did you know that your mentor Stephen Barrett, M.D., Is not a doctor at all!!
It’s funny how simple people judge a book by it’s cover without ever reading the inside, and then they tell other people that just happen to have read the book, what it’s not about!!!!!
This board is a lot like Yahoo Q & A (alternative), where people talk crap about what they don’t understand!!
@Rick,
“Did you know that your mentor Stephen Barrett, M.D., Is not a doctor at all!!”
Will you please explain what this is supposed to mean?
Barrett was a doctor but doesn’t practice any more. Whose is Barrett mentoring? (I am almost afraid to ask because I know the response will lack reason and sense, but here goes.)
@Rick,
“It’s funny how simple people judge a book by it’s cover without ever reading the inside, and then they tell other people that just happen to have read the book, what it’s not about!!!!!”
I did open the PDF and read it; that is how I know it was a press release. I thought that much was blindingly obvious, however, there is no accounting for some.
“This board is a lot like Yahoo Q & A (alternative), where people talk crap about what they don’t understand!!”
You mean like those people who support homeopathy despite it being inconsistent (read, breaks) the laws of nature. Are you aware of Avogadros’ number, that ever so slight impediment to homeopathy making sense from the dilution aspect? There are a few other “inconsistencies, any of which render it a nonsense.
All I know is that Traumeel has been one of the greatest benefits to my well being. I have used it for over a decade and it has never failed to relieve and most often completely get rid of my joint pain, muscle soreness, back and neck pain, injury related bruising and soreness. When I have pain, I apply it morning and night, and then after a relatively short period of time, based on the severity of the pain, it goes away. It’s miraculous stuff, I am pretty freaked out that it is now unavailable!!!
I saw this T-Relief when I tried to order the Traumeel, checked out the ingredients, doesn’t seem the same, so started researching and came upon this site which gave me a heads up on what’s going on. I’m going to see if I can order it from another country. All the US can offer in its place is Ibuprofin (makes me sick to my stomach), steroid shots ( yeah, that’s real good for you), creams that don’t work….. Wow, really sad state of affairs when big Pharma rules. IF ANYONE KNOWS HOW TO ORDER TRAUMEEL FROM WHEREVER IN THE WORLD PLEASE LET ME KNOW!! I’m desperate to get the relief I need from the real Traumeel. Thank you
EBAY!!!
This is shocking and disgusting news. Traumeel is by far one of the best treatments I’ve used. For decades. I’m a medical professional and lots of medical professionals use it. There are so many harmful toxic “treatments” out there for pain and inflammation. Why not spend precious energy in getting them off the market? Is there something political in this turn of events? Probably. It’s unlikely that T-Relief is Traumeel.
Arguments about what is and isn’t science are boring. Uninformed. Gross measurements rarely pick up subtle shifts that can make all the difference health wise. Wake up, people! If our medical system evolves into good health, Traumeel will again be available in this country.
@Fran
Pity you were not able to provide a jot of evidence to backup your claims…
Oh, do you know why Traumeel isn’t available for sale in the UK?
“This is shocking and disgusting news. Traumeel is by far one of the best treatments I’ve used. For decades. I’m a medical professional and lots of medical professionals use it.”
This post is comical, and not for the right reasons.
Opening with hyperbole, it then gets straight into the next fallacy, argument from authority, and tops it off with bad punctuation. Either their expectation is that we are idiots, or the contrary might be true. It’s not looking good for the poster so far.
`
“There are so many harmful toxic “treatments” out there for pain and inflammation. Why not spend precious energy in getting them off the market? Is there something political in this turn of events? Probably. It’s unlikely that T-Relief is Traumeel.”
Where does anyone start with nonsense? “Toxic treatments”? OK, which ones, which disease, which class, which genre, which what? Are they all “toxic” because they are artificial? (It was rhetorical for the idiots.) Take Traumeel; no “medicine” in a bottle for people who don’t have a real illness. How can anyone or anybody treat people with hypochondria or, maybe, a slightly sore bit and a big imagination (FFS)?
`
“Arguments about what is and isn’t science are boring.”
Boring? Really, boring? Einstein was wrong about the constant, however, he wasn’t wrong about relativity because it is factored into all satellite communications. Now you know that, don’t use your mobile phone (which, of course, is not a modern scientific invention). So, for all of those people “bored” with science, my suggestion is; DON’T USE IT. Go back to the Stone Age and die of some now treatable disease.
`
“Uninformed. Gross measurements rarely pick up subtle shifts that can make all the difference health wise.”
What are “subtle shifts”? Are vaccinations “subtle shifts”, or perhaps “MRIs”, or robot surgery? Or are they aspects of medicine you don’t agree with?
“Wake up, people! If our medical system evolves into good health, Traumeel will again be available in this country.”
Yep, so will voodoo dolls and human sacrifices if uninformed morons like you get their way.
@Fran
I’m sorry if you miss Traumeel. Try crushing some rose petals into a small quantity of Greek-style yoghurt and rub this well into the painful areas. For me this works far better than Traumeel ever did.
Franko – Thanks for the recipe! At your suggestion, I’ve been having clients try it for the past week. Based on the results, I’m now recommending it for all of our arthritis patients. (Don’t worry – we’re giving you full credit.)
jm,
Since you have patients, what brand of alt-med do you practice?
Fran – I did some research on the subject, being Medinatura bought some of the BHI/HEEL’s line, not including the names of some of the better BHI/HEEL products including Traumeel. You can still buy Traumeel on ebay from sellers outside of the USA.
The T-Relief “Arnica plus” has the same ingredients of Traumeel. Medinatura can’t call it Traumeel because they don’t own the name. I’ve been using Traumeel since 1985, great stuff!!!!!!
I love Trameel, it worked very well. I just ran out of it and ordered (I thought was Trameel in new packaging). The new stuff is just that, “stuff”. It does not work!
Liz Shine said:
How do you know it doesn’t work?
Try the rose petals: far better than that Traumeel stuff!
It’s called “Placebo defect” 😉
From experience traumeel creme was the best I ever found. It stopped muscle pain and bruising very fast compared to times I used nothing, and times I used other cremes. I never found any creme that worked like it did. Just tried t creme I thought was same and it is doing nothing. I saw manufacturer name on package was not heel so I am researching and found this site. Am very disappointed traumeel is gone. Just wasted money on a product that is not working. Still have pain and bruising after 4 applications on foot overnight. Traumeel took it away after first and got rid of things faster than anything else I ever tried. Too bad they couldnt keep selling this one product.
jane,
How can you tell the difference between one product that contains virtually no ingredients and another containing virtually no ingredients?
~
“Just wasted money on a product that is not working.”
You wasted money on both of them, except that one is a better placebo.
These were wonderful, safe products that truly worked!
Were they indeed? Pity you fail to provide any good evidence.
@Gina Gentilini,
Are the this Gina Gentilini,
http://chiropractichealthservices.com/about-us/meet-our-staff.html,
who has “Doctorate in Chiropractic, Bachelor of Science in Biology, and a Certificate in Acupuncture”?
Did the Biology degree not cover chemistry, in particular, Avogadro’s number, dilutions, and that the human body does not have meridians, Qi, or yin and yang?
~
And on whose website, you say,
“Dr. Gentilini in particular enjoys taking care of pregnant women and children.”
Have you ever found a subluxation in a child, or a subluxation anywhere, for that matter?
~
The website also says,
“Although the ultimate causes of chronic diseases such as high blood pressure and diabetes are largely unknown, nerve interference may be reasonably postulated as a key contributor to the development and maintenance of these conditions. If as a result of nerve interference, your body’s cells, tissues, and organs are not receiving timely and accurate information from your brain, then a host of symptoms may develop. Over time, chronic disease may be the unwanted outcome.”
Have any evidence for this preposterous suggestion? If you do, I’m sure all medical doctors would welcome such news.
~
Finally, do you have any evidence for this either;
‘These were wonderful, safe products that truly worked!”?
~
As much as I would love a response, you won’t have any answers because there is no evidence.
My orthopedic doctor recommended Traumeel cream to me. At 83, I have pain in a lot of areas of my body. Traumeel soothes the pain in a way that nothing else does. Does it change what is causing the pain. Of course not, but I can live comfortably with the issues I have. So far I can still get it from GNC. I have found a way to order it through a pharmacy in Germany. When GNC runs out, I have another source.
Homeopathy posed a serious threat to entrenched medicine. Orthodox physicians criticized herbalists, midwives, and various other “non-regular” practitioners because they were not medically trained. Homeopaths, however, could not be discredited as being unlearned, since they were graduates from many of the same medical schools as “regular” physicians. In fact, many of the initial practitioners of homeopathy graduated from some of the most prestigious medical schools of the day. (15)
Orthodox medicine was also threatened because homeopathy offered an integrated, coherent, systematic basis for its therapeutic practice. In his Pulitzer Prize-winning book The Social Transformation of American Medicine Paul Starr noted, “Because homeopathy was simultaneously philosophical and experimental, it seemed to many people to be more rather than less scientific than orthodox medicine.” (16)
One of the most important reasons that orthodox physicians and drug companies disliked homeopathy was that inherent in the homeopathic approach was a sharp critique of the use of conventional drugs. Homeopaths were primarily critical of the suppressive nature of these drugs. They felt that they simply masked the person’s symptoms, creating deeper, more serious diseases. Homeopaths also noted that this masking of symptoms made it more difficult for them ultimately to find the correct medicine, since the person’s idiosyncratic symptoms are the primary guide to the individual selection of the medicine.
https://www.homeopathic.com/Articles/Introduction_to_Homeopathy/A_Condensed_History_of_Homeopathy.html
Homeopathy achieved its greatest popularity in the 19th century. It was introduced to the United States in 1825 by Hans Birch Gram, a student of Hahnemann.[52] The first homeopathic school in the U.S.A. opened in 1835, and in 1844, the first U.S. national medical association, the American Institute of Homeopathy, was established and throughout the 19th century, dozens of homeopathic institutions appeared in Europe and the United States.[53] By 1900, there were 22 homeopathic colleges and 15,000 practitioners in the United States.[54] Because medical practice of the time relied on ineffective and often dangerous treatments, patients of homeopaths often had better outcomes than those of the doctors of the time.[55] Homeopathic remedies, even if ineffective, would almost surely cause no harm, making the users of homeopathic remedies less likely to be killed by the treatment that was supposed to be helping them.[42] The relative success of homeopathy in the 19th century may have led to the abandonment of the ineffective and harmful treatments of bloodletting and purging and to have begun the move towards more effective, science-based medicine.[30] One reason for the growing popularity of homeopathy was its apparent success in treating people suffering from infectious disease epidemics.[56] During 19th century epidemics of diseases such as cholera, death rates in homeopathic hospitals were often lower than in conventional hospitals, where the treatments used at the time were often harmful and did little or nothing to combat the diseases.[57]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy
@Rick,
You are right; homeopathy did lead to the cessation of blood-letting, and not for the reason you think.
During the American Civil War, during a controlled experiment, it was found that blood-letting killed more people than homeopathy. That is because homeopathy did nothing and the soldiers did not die of their wounds.
Frank, Frank, Frank, Frank, Frank. This is an experiment for you to do. Get a tube of the real, HEEL Traumeel. Keep it close at hand until the time you sprain your wrist or bruise your shin or bash your shoulder. Apply the Traumeel promptly and again as needed, perhaps two or three times a day. The improvement will be so remarkable that you will LOVE your Traumeel. Try it on sore, knotted muscles. Hhmmmm, what a relief.
My cat suddenly was unable to urinate, despite frequent visits to her litter box and much scratching. I whisked her off to the vet who did an exam and bloodwork to the tune of $300. The reason for the problem was not found and no solutions were offered. I took her home and consulted my Richard Pitcairn DVM Natural Animal Care text and found a homeopathic remedy recommended which suited her symptoms. Within 4 hours my kitty was peeing again. In a few days, the problem returned. More remedy given, more peeing achieved, but in a few days, the problem returned. I gave her a higher potency of the same remedy and she has been urinating just fine ever since. Not only that, but a related problem she had had since I adopted her was remedied at the same time. Since I got her, she had been urinating too frequently in small amounts, perhaps 4-6 times a day. Now she has one large pee every 24 hours. The two homeopathic remedies cost me only about $16 in total and were very effective. If I’d been able to access a holistic vet, I could have saved myself $220. I’ve had other wonderful successes with my other cats using homeopathy. Graphites quickly cleared up an oozing purple sore on one cat and nux rapidly cleared a fever and malaise brought on by eating someone’s cheap kibble with another of my cats. Placebos don’t work on cats Frank.
placebos do work on cats!!!
I am afraid you are wrong professor 😉
Homeopathy does not work on cats, but it works admirably on their owners to make them think the poor animals were helped by the shaken water or sugar pills 😀
Cats are expensive placebos.
Only in humans can giving a placebo to a placebo produce a positive effect 🙂
Miss Becks said:
Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.
Homeopaths adopted new orthodox treatments… while allopaths [regular orthodox physicians] borrowed homeopathic remedies… In 1903, after long antagonism, the American Medical Association… invited homeopaths to join [the Association].’9 The Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act of 1939 in the USA allowed homeopathic medicines to be sold openly on the market. Five homeopathic hospitals were founded in Britain, the two largest (in London and Glasgow) having in-patient units. Today the ten most common diseases treated by homeopaths are (in order of frequency) asthma, depression, otitis media, allergic rhinitis (hay fever), headache and migraine, neurotic disorders, non-specific allergy, dermatitis, arthritis and hypertension.
There seems little doubt there has been a remarkable revival of homeopathy since the 1960s and 1970s in many countries, but especially the USA where, in 2002, it was estimated that the number of patients using homeopathic remedies had risen by 500% in the previous seven years, mostly by purchasing over-the-counter remedies. In the USA patients seen by homeopaths tended to be more affluent, more frequently white, present more subjective symptoms, and to be younger than patients seen by conventional physicians.9 In Britain a survey by the BBC in 1999 found that 17% of 1204 randomly selected adults had used homeopathy within the past year (this includes homeopathic remedies bought over the counter) and another survey in 1998 estimated that there were 470 000 recent users of homeopathy in the UK. It is likely that most patients in the UK who use complementary medicine are largely middle class and middle aged.11 One of the well known features of homeopathy is that from the nineteenth century to today it has been firmly supported by royalty and the aristocracy. Edward, Prince of Wales was the patron of the London Homeopathic Hospital, while the Duke of York, later King George VI, gave the title ‘Royal’ to the hospital. He also named one of his race-horses ‘Hypericum’ after a homeopathic remedy. He entered it for the Thousand Guinea Stakes at Newmarket in 1946 and it won.12
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1676328/
@Rick the troll,
“Homeopaths adopted new orthodox treatments… while allopaths [regular orthodox physicians] borrowed homeopathic remedies… In 1903, after long antagonism, the American Medical Association… invited homeopaths to join [the Association].’9 The Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act of 1939 in the USA allowed homeopathic medicines to be sold openly on the market.”
In 1903, medicine was very different, so citing this is meaningless.
“Five homeopathic hospitals were founded in Britain, the two largest (in London and Glasgow) having in-patient units. Today the ten most common diseases treated by homeopaths are (in order of frequency) asthma, depression, otitis media, allergic rhinitis (hay fever), headache and migraine, neurotic disorders, non-specific allergy, dermatitis, arthritis and hypertension.”
Britain is discovering its mistakes and is in the process of getting rid of this nonsense, despite what that noted loony, Charlie Windsor, thinks.
“There seems little doubt there has been a remarkable revival of homeopathy since the 1960s and 1970s in many countries, but especially the USA where, in 2002, it was estimated that the number of patients using homeopathic remedies had risen by 500% in the previous seven years, mostly by purchasing over-the-counter remedies. In the USA patients seen by homeopaths tended to be more affluent, more frequently white, present more subjective symptoms, and to be younger than patients seen by conventional physicians.”
Yes, you (but you copied it from somewhere without attribution) describe the influence of affluence and the rise of the “worried well”, those people who aren’t really ill but, because they think they have some affliction, seek the attention of charlatans, such as chiropractors, naturopaths and homeopaths, among others.
It is the Logical Fallacy, Argument from Popularity, and is meaningless.
“In Britain a survey by the BBC in 1999 found that 17% of 1204 randomly selected adults had used homeopathy within the past year (this includes homeopathic remedies bought over the counter) and another survey in 1998 estimated that there were 470 000 recent users of homeopathy in the UK. It is likely that most patients in the UK who use complementary medicine are largely middle class and middle aged.”
Argument from Popularity, hence worthless.
“One of the well known features of homeopathy is that from the nineteenth century to today it has been firmly supported by royalty and the aristocracy. Edward, Prince of Wales was the patron of the London Homeopathic Hospital, while the Duke of York, later King George VI, gave the title ‘Royal’ to the hospital.”
Argument from Authority, so worthless again. I don’t recall any of the royals having a science based education or any education in medicine, so what would they know?
“He also named one of his race-horses ‘Hypericum’ after a homeopathic remedy. He entered it for the Thousand Guinea Stakes at Newmarket in 1946 and it won.”
Really? Who cares, and what does it provide for your argument?
Do you have any understanding of science or Logical Fallacies? Please, before you post anything similarly ludicrous, do some research on real science, you know, that stuff that builds bridges, makes phones and TVs, makes and powers aeroplanes, provides equipment for hospitals, builds cars, makes computers, launches satellites, real world stuff, not fanciful nonsense that has no scientific evidence to back it.
hear, hear
This thread has only 105 comments.
That’s not at at all potent enough.
Let’s dilute it with this very detailed analysis of Traumeel that I stumbled upon this morning. Very thorough work that I highly recommend especially for our homeopath friends.
And let’s not forget to potentize by shaking the thread at least ten times by banging the keyboard!
>>áewepqw ælaæiæðnwaægnwl qiwjwj q´wig´q wjgijqwæþþogij æqijgn ælqiwjng æliqwnjræ ððginqwæognælnþ<<
That should do it.
Now let's do a proving by reading the comments above…
Huey!… heavy stuff. Way too heavy. I get all tired and irritated, and there’s this strange craving that I sometimes get in the morning. I will have to find an antidote…. Which do you think will be appropriate, Java or Mocha ?
Sorry for you who do not appreciate a little homeopathic joviality. Have a nice sunday all.
I should explain the strange letters that appear during the potentisation in my last comment. This is “KI”. Potently magic stuff.
I am Icelandic and we still use the KI letters in our language. That’s why they are on my KI-board. It comes from our ancestors who knew how to manipulate the bad VI (today we say “bad VIbes”) and the good KI. That´s why they were called VI-KI-ngs.
The VI-KI-ngs travelled far and the orientals learned about the Vi and the Ki stuff from them. But they got it all wrong however and mixed it up into Qi and Yin and Yang and all kinds of silly nonsense. Dosn’t work for them as Edzard’s research has demonstrated.
.
I really should be going out to enjoy this sunny day… 😀
Bjorn, I think you might be on to something here!
I live in Scotland, where there is a growing movement for independence. So I figured something like your keyboard homeopathy might be able to make the independence message stronger.
I started with the phrase “Independence for Scotland”, then diluted it with alcohol (the original Hahnemann favourite and appropriate in this case) by the following procedure. I generated a list of random numbers from 0 to 5 then inserted the letters of the word “alcohol” into the starting phrase one at a time, counting onwards by the number of letters indicated by the next random number.
Here’s the result of the first pass: aInldcepohoelndenace folr coScotlhandol. You can see the message becoming clearer and stronger already.
Here are the next three dilutions…
aInladlcepochoohelndoenacel alcfoolr chooScotllahanldoclo
aIanlladlccepoohchooohellnadoelnaccoelahlcfooollracholoSccootllahhanlodoclloalholcohol
alaIanclladloccepohoolhchooalohcellonadhooelnaclcoelaahllcfocohoololraclhaoloSclcooctloholahlhaanlodloccohlloolaalholclcohoolh
Amazing! Nowhere near such high dilutions as are used by serious homeopaths, but the way in which the message becomes stronger is self-evident. [Edited to add; I had to take out the spaces after the second dilution because the character strings display weirdly otherwise.]
To the following people who support Homeopathy: Peggy, Heather young, Skepdoc Prof, Jean, Msullivan, mireille, Sabina, Cheryl donato, nikita, Andy, Hygeia, Jeanette Denton, Martha, Fran, Jm, Liz Shine, Jane and Gina Gentilini. There are better message boards that support the use of Homeopathy and other alternative therapies without the negative feedback.
To the others, this says it best: The Highest form of Ignorance is when you reject something
you don’t know anything about.
– Wayne Dyer
meaning?
“To the others, this says it best: The Highest form of Ignorance is when you reject something
you don’t know anything about.
– Wayne Dyer”
And the highest form of stupidity is to accept something for which there is no evidence.
-Frank Collins
“There are better message boards that support the use of Homeopathy and other alternative therapies without the negative feedback.”
Would you rather have an audience which accepts everything you say without question? Do you not want constructive feedback to ensure your thinking remains objective and conducive to good science? Do you not want properly constructed studies to determine whether a treatment is effective, or is enough that Joe Blow (one of the friends) said so?
Please, the questions are rhetorical.
If eaten, the actual herb is toxic and can be fatal. However, some oral supplements contain highly diluted arnica. These are considered homeopathic treatments. These low-dose arnica tablets are safe to use and have been studied for muscle pain, diabetic eye damage, and swelling and pain after surgery. More research needs to be done to establish effectiveness for those problems. A study of children with cancer, however, found that homeopathic low-dose arnica may help reduce mouth ulcers related to chemotherapy.
http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-and-supplements/arnica
it is not correct to claim that high dilutions of homeopathic arnica have been shown to be effective for any condition. if you disagree, please show the evidence [and not a summary website].
When Arnica is used in any other way other then Homeopathy, it is totally unsafe, and should not be used!
Do you know that 19 people that posted on the thread are in favor of homeopathy and what 4 maybe 5 including yourself are dis-believer in homeopathy!
How does one show you proof, when a web site that is generally anti-alternatives, makes a claim of benefits………
just post the evidence for your statement that homeopathic arnica is effective! or don’t you know what evidence is?
has it occurred to you that medicine is not about believing or disbelieving, but about evidence? are you perhaps a chaplain in the HOLY CHURCH OF HAHNEMANN?
Homeopathy in France: a triumph of profit over reason
The results show that a total of 6,705,420 patients received at least one reimbursement for a homeopathic preparation during the 12-month period. This number equates to 10.2% of the French population, with a predominance in females (68%) and a peak frequency observed in children aged 0-4 years (18%). About one third of patients had only one reimbursement, and one half of patients had three or more reimbursements.
A total of 120,110 healthcare professionals (HCPs) prescribed at least one homeopathic drug or preparation. They represented 43.5% of the overall population of HCPs, nearly 95% of general practitioners, dermatologists and pediatricians, and 75% of midwives. Homeopathy accounted for 5% of the total number of drug units prescribed by HCPs. Conventional medicines were co-prescribed with 55% of homeopathic prescriptions.
http://edzardernst.com/category/homeopathy/
YES
do you have a point?
The point seems to be the tedious argumentum ad populum fallacy.
@Rick
Astrology is an industry with a massive financial turnover and countless adherents. But where’s the evidence for the veracity of astrology beyond popular belief?
In the UK a recent survey showed 55% or the population believe in ghosts http://www.ripleyslondon.com/content/uploads/2014/12/Supernatural-press-release-Final.pdf. What is the evidence for ghosts beyond popular belief?
Just because somebody believes something helps them medically doesn’t make it true or real. If we went by that sort of thing as evidence we’d still imagine the earth is flat and that a god causes the sun to rise every morning.
Do you know the difference between non-believers of alternative medicine and people that are open minded and welcome alternative medicine. Say you have Diabetes, and poor circulation in your leg, feet and/or toe’s. Your doctors tells you that they have tried everything and theirs nothing more they can do for you, so their going to cut off your toes or feet. Because your a non-believer, you except the fact and gladly have them removed. A believer will look for more choices outside of conventional medicine. It’s pretty easy to restore circulation in one’s feet, legs and toes, or where ever circulation is poor, and it’s cheap, $20.00 for 2 pounds of herbs. I’m not sharing the herbs!
@Rick
You don’t have to share the herbs. Share the evidence.
brilliant example!
brilliant because it shows you haven’t got a clue about medicine.
nobody tells patients ‘there is nothing more we can do for you’. this is an alt med fantasy unrelated to real life. and even if a doctor should say something as stupid as that, just change physician.
nobody would cut off toes because of ‘poor circulation’. there are situations where this is necessary, e. g. gangrene; then it is done to save the patients life by amputation [and this is hardly ‘doing nothing’]. in such a situation it is virtually life-threatening to try to ‘restore circulation with 2 pounds of herbs’.
if that is your advice to such patients, please urgently change your profession!!!!
“nobody tells patients ‘there is nothing more we can do for you’. this is an alt med fantasy unrelated to real life. and even if a doctor should say something as stupid as that, just change physician.”
Apparently, you would be surprised how often MDs say that. It happens so frequently, we’ve considered putting it on our intake form. Or were you trying to be funny?
IN MY ENTIRE 40 YEARS IN MEDICINE, I HAVE NEVER HEARD A DOCTOR SAY THAT.
but I did hear people claiming their doctor said it!
what doctors do say is that nothing can be done to affect a cure but there is always something to ease the symptoms.
in any case, if your doctor does utter such nonsense, change physician!!!
We’ve gotten both – “nothing more we can do for you” and “we can only treat symptoms”. Sometimes, symptom treatments don’t work. So it goes.
Chronic pain folks will only change MDs a certain number of times before resignation sets in. It costs a lot of money to MD shop. More importantly, it takes a lot of time and effort. One person filling out an intake form, under the “occupation” line, put “sitting in waiting rooms and popping pills that don’t do anything”.
And, your caps lock key seems to be sticky again.
Actually, it is the homeoquacks who treat only symptoms.
As for the rest, Professor Ernst has said it: no doctor would ever say “there is nothing we can do for you”. Putting ethics aside, they would not do that for one simple reason: it is not true. The possibility to do something for a patient stops at death, not a fraction of a second earlier.
That’s an interesting comment, Bart. Could you clear up a few things for me? You may remember, I’m a bit slow on the uptake.
You said “Actually, it is the homeoquacks who treat only symptoms.”
Edzard said “what doctors do say is that nothing can be done to affect a cure but there is always something to ease the symptoms.”
So is Edzard wrong, are you wrong, or are you saying that doctors who treat symptoms are homeoquacks?
And then there’s the matter of syptom treatment not working. You said “As for the rest, Professor Ernst has said it: no doctor would ever say “there is nothing we can do for you”. ”
And yet, they do. Crazy. Or quite possibly…they know what they’re doing.
You said “Putting ethics aside, they would not do that for one simple reason: it is not true. The possibility to do something for a patient stops at death, not a fraction of a second earlier.”
So the next time I see someone who’s been referred by their chronic pain doc, saying there’s nothing more they can do for them…should I give you a call? I’ve always trusted that the doc’s knew what they were doing – turned over every stone, etc etc to help their patients, and had valid reasons for coming to the conclusion that they’ve exhausted all of their resources, for that particular patient. Since it is their area of expertise and all. I bet they never thought to get a second opinion from a computer programmer.
I’ll have to practice saying “Have you consulted with Bart, at House of Quack?” with a straight face.
@jm,
“Apparently, you would be surprised how often MDs say that.”
And you are more than happy to exploit those sick people by oiling their skin and scraping a straight over it to create theatrical bruising, and for what? Taking money to do what?
You are in no position to criticise anyone about treatments when you practise a weird form of witchcraft that has no therapeutic effect. You are, however, happy to take money for nothing. are there any mirrors around you? Have a look at a thief.
Frank, what are you referring to as a criticism?
@jm,
Do you have a disconnected brain? Are you not cognisant of what you write, or is it the peculiarly selected alt-med mindset?
Yes Frank, I have a disconnected brain. But, I am cognisant of what I wrote. It wasn’t a criticism, and not really sure how you could take it as such. Perhaps a peculiarity of your fundamentalist mindset? Try just reading the words, without the voices in your head getting in the way.
@Rick,
And here it is in correct English;
*****************************************************************************
Do you know the difference between non-believers of alternative medicine and people who are open minded and welcome alternative medicine? Say you have diabetes and poor circulation in your leg, feet and/or toes. Your doctors tells you they have tried everything and there’s nothing more they can do for you, so they’re going to cut off your toes or feet. Because you’re a non-believer, you accept the fact and gladly have them removed. A believer will look for more choices outside of conventional medicine. It’s pretty easy to restore circulation in one’s feet, legs and toes, or wherever circulation is poor, and it’s cheap, $20.00 for 2 pounds of herbs. I’m not sharing the herbs!
******************************************************************************
Faulty thinking and reasoning show up in many forms; in this case, and most others, adherents to alt-med cannot even write properly, let alone show any propensity for logic. I wonder if that is a coincidence or an illustration of the overall level of intelligence of the typical alt-medder? Rick is a prime example of this phenomenon.
Complementary and alternative medicine use in England: results from a national survey.
Data were available for 7630 respondents (household response rate 71%). Lifetime and 12-month prevalence of CAM use were 44.0% and 26.3% respectively; 12.1% had consulted a practitioner in the preceding 12 months. Massage, aromatherapy and acupuncture were the most commonly used therapies. Twenty-nine percent of respondents taking prescription drugs had used CAM in the last 12 months. Women (OR 0.491, 95% CI: 0.419, 0.577), university educated respondents (OR 1.296, 95% CI: 1.088, 1.544), those suffering from anxiety or depression (OR 1.341, 95% CI: 1.074, 1.674), people with poorer mental health (on GHQ: OR 1.062, 95% CI 1.026, 1.100) and lower levels of perceived social support (1.047, 95% CI: 1.008, 1.088), people consuming ≥ 5 portions of fruit and vegetables a day (OR 1.327, 95% CI: 1.124, 1.567) were significantly more likely to use CAM.
CONCLUSION:
Complementary and alternative medicine use in England remains substantial, even amongst those taking prescription drugs. These data serve as a valuable reminder to medical practitioners to ask patients about CAM use and should be routinely collected to facilitate prioritisation of the research agenda in CAM.
In the CAMbrella report we identified that: herbal medicine is used by up to half the people studied; homoeopathy, surprisingly, is used by about 30% of Europeans using CAM; chiropractic and acupuncture by up to 20% of CAM users; and dietary supplements by almost everyone. We have estimated that this service is provided by 328,000 registered CAM providers, comprising of 178,000 non-medical practitioners and 150,000 medical doctors. Acupuncture (96,380) is the most available therapy practised by both, physicians (80,000) and non-medical practitioners (16,380). We also estimated that there are 65 CAM providers for every 100,000 EU citizens. The UK has one of the most organised approaches to registration and regulation for non-medically qualified practitioners who provide most of these clinical interventions. In the rest of the EU, particularly in Germany and France, these treatments are almost always part of medical practice in both the community and in hospitals.
how clever of you! you can even cut and paste.
do you also have a point?
Who uses complementary therapies?
In the UK, up to one third of people with cancer (33%) use some sort of complementary therapy at some time during their illness. For some types of cancer, such as breast cancer, the number of people using complementary therapies is even higher at almost half (50%).
The total UK annual spend on alternative health treatments is £4.5 billion, a market that has grown by nearly 50 per cent in five years.
Alternative therapists now outnumber GPs in the UK, universities run courses on alternative medicine and the industry receives £500 million a year from the NHS.
This is despite the fact that, according to scientists Dr Simon Singh and Dr Edzard Ernst, there is little evidence that many of the treatments actually work, and, in some cases, may even prove unsafe.
Skeptics of homeopathy insist that homeopathic medicines do not work, but have difficulty explaining how so many people use and rely upon this system of medicine to treat themselves for so many acute and chronic diseases; and a very large number of these people do not have to use anything else. A previous article that I wrote at this site presented a strong case for the scientific and historical evidence for homeopathy. Further, other articles here have provided additional scientific evidence for the use of homeopathic medicines in respiratory allergies and in pediatrics. Although a small and vocal group of skeptics of homeopathy continue to deny its viability, homeopathy’s growing popularity throughout the world amongst physicians, other health professionals, and educated populations continue to prove that skeptics are really simply medical fundamentalists.
all you are demonstrating here is that homeopathy clearly does not help against paranoia
TM has maintained its popularity in all regions of the developing world and its use is rapidly spreading in industrialized countries.
In China, traditional herbal preparations account for 30%-50% of the total medicinal consumption.
In Ghana, Mali, Nigeria and Zambia, the first line of treatment for 60% of children with high fever resulting from malaria is the use of herbal medicines at home.
WHO estimates that in several African countries traditional birth attendants assist in the majority of births.
In Europe, North America and other industrialized regions, over 50% of the population have used complementary or alternative medicine at least once.
In San Francisco, London and South Africa, 75% of people living with HIV/AIDS use TM/CAM.
70% of the population in Canada have used complementary medicine at least once.
In Germany, 90% of the population have used a natural remedy at some point in their life. Between 1995 and 2000, the number of doctors who had undergone special training in natural remedy medicine had almost doubled to 10 800.
In the United States, 158 million of the adult population use complementary medicines and according to the USA Commission for Alternative and Complementary medicines, US $17 billion was spent on traditional remedies in 2000.
In the United Kingdom, annual expenditure on alternative medicine is US$ 230 million.
The global market for herbal medicines currently stands at over US $ 60 billion annually and is growing steadily.
Numerous surveys over the past 150 plus years have confirmed that people who seek homeopathic treatment tend to be considerably more educated than those who don’t (1). What is not as well known is the fact that homeopathic medicine is the leading “alternative” treatment used by physicians in Europe…and growing numbers of the citizenry.
The total UK annual spend on alternative health treatments is £4.5 billion, a market that has grown by nearly 50 per cent in five years.
Alternative therapists now outnumber GPs in the UK, universities run courses on alternative medicine and the industry receives £500 million a year from the NHS.
This is despite the fact that, according to scientists Dr Simon Singh and Dr Edzard Ernst, there is little evidence that many of the treatments actually work, and, in some cases, may even prove unsafe. And despite homeopathy’s impressive popularity in Europe, it is actually even more popular in India where over 100 million people depend solely on this form of medical care (2). Further, according to an A.C. Neilsen survey in India, 62 percent of current homeopathy users have never tried conventional medicines and 82 percent of homeopathy users would not switch to conventional treatments (3).
@Rick,
Argument from Popularity is a logical fallacy and no measure of anything, except the user’s lack of understanding of what constitutes a meaningful and sound argument.
@Rick
According to Fox News, 11% of Americans think that Elvis Presley may still be alive. That’s 35 million people. Do you regard that as evidence that Elvis Presley may still be alive?
According to BBC News in 2009, 70% of the British population believe there is a human soul. Do you regard that as evidence a human soul exists?
@Franko –
If you don’t live in the US, you might not be aware of how Fox News is regarded. (most estimates put it below 20% accurate) It’s pretty much considered a comedy network. You’re better off getting info from The Onion.
So the 11% figure from Faux News might be an underestimate?
Or who knows, maybe they actually got it right this time. It could happen. Either way, good to remember that Fox treats information homeopathically – dilute dilute dilute…until there’s no trace left.
“dilute dilute dilute…until there’s no trace left”
Just like you, jm, dilute reality so much there is none left. It really makes me laugh; scraping people’s skin with a hard straight edge is meant to be a cure for something? WTF?
The only thing it cures is your wallet’s lack of thickness (it certainly doesn’t cure your lack of ethics and morality and understanding of science). Gawd, you are a dill.
Frank – I think you’re a bit confused, a bit disoriented. The gua sha thread is over there → .
@jm,
“Frank – I think you’re a bit confused, a bit disoriented. The gua sha thread is over there → .”
Yep, you are right, for once. The gua sha thread is over there, but not as far as your purported reason.
Gua sha (very funny name for complete nonsense) and homeopathy have everything in common; can you guess what that might be?
(I do apologise to all people in this thread who think logically; I can’t work out whether jm is completely deranged or a troll. Only he, and a few other nutters, can’t seem to work out why scraping a flat stick across peoples’ skin to cause bruising has not caught on as an amazing, new, all-curing medical phenomenon. Why have all the medical experts around the planet, not just looked on in awe at all the diseases it has cured? Ebola, measles, malaria, itchy balls even?)
Frank – you should collaborate with Bjorn, and write a guest post on gua sha. Set the world straight!
@jm,
“Frank – you should collaborate with Bjorn, and write a guest post on gua sha. Set the world straight!”
I’ve read a few websites about it and it is hilarious. What next, remote gua sha – scrape a voodoo type doll and the person gets better?
I can’t take you seriously anymore. Anyone whose thinking is so far from reality can’t be taken as credible on anything.
lol lol lol lol (Really, you believe this stuff? Einstein was right, human stupidity is infinite.)
Frank – you said “I’ve read a few websites about it…”
I can tell. Einstein would be proud that you did such stellar, thorough research before coming to your definitive conclusions.
@jm,
“I can tell. Einstein would be proud that you did such stellar, thorough research before coming to your definitive conclusions.”
Just what I expect from you.
A long time ago in a land far away, when I was 17, one of my father’s friends, a mechanic, showed me his brand new “discovery”, a magnet attached to an engine’s piston that would “extract” the energy that would otherwise go to “waste” in the reciprocations. I tried to tell him of the Law of the Conservation of Energy but he was unconvinced, until it did not work (nor would it ever).
The point of the story; there are some things that contravene the laws of nature and some things that are just totally implausible crap. Yours is in the second group and no amount of research is going to make it otherwise. As always, and as noted by Carl Sagan, the onus remains with the claimant to show it is efficacious.
When (though if remains the biggest question) objective testing proves me wrong (or you find a blue striped unicorn or the Tooth Fairy), let me know.
Frank – you missed the point, but that’s ok. By the way, you seem to have gone off on a gua sha tangent without ever telling me what I was criticising (above). Or are you still trying to figure that out (since there was no criticism in the first place). I’m sure you’ll come up with something.
I missed the point? It is a pity you don’t digest the text your eyes pass over, or is abstruseness your dominant characteristic?
You are truly a True Believer;
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=True+Believer
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/true%20believer
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/true%20believer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True-believer_syndrome
(I am waiting for the Tu Quoque, since you are devoid of reason.)
Prof,
Does your blog have an “Ignore” option because I have a few candidates for which I can put it to good effect?
Frank – interesting links. Did you read them? You should put on your critical thinking cap, step back, and objectively look at your comments. Since you brought it up, I’ll use gua sha as an example. (but I can only assume you follow the same protocol for homeopathy, acupuncture, etc)
The few websites (and it’s pretty obvious which ones) that form the entirety of your gua sha understanding has left you pretty ignorant of a very simple folk therapy. It’s pretty basic physical medicine, and provides instant feedback. Nothing supernatural about it, easy as pie.
If you don’t have a basic understanding…how can you even begin to assess the quality of the research? Quite obviously, you can’t.
If you can’t evaluate the research, you are reliant on the assessment of others. You have to have faith that they have a basic understanding, and can evaluate the research. You also have to have faith that the researchers had enough of an understanding to properly research.
You, my friend, are a true believer who has been led astray – putting you faith in those who have looked at a couple more websites than you have.
The ‘Tu quoque’ appears in full galore, just as predicted 😉
This jm character, who evidently sells skin scraping as a “medical” service, goes on at length about us not understanding the basics or the research. Prior comments have clearly shown how (s)he has no inkling of what the term really means.
(S)he writes the word “research(ers)” half a dozen times and prattles on as before, as if (s)he is in possession of some great doctrine of secrets of this Gua Sha nonsense but seems unwilling to reveal any outside support or evidence as to its nature and effect?
The audience should note that in all the many meters of muddle ‘jm’ has written here, desperately defending her/his bogus therapy, (s)he has never, not once, pointed to any piece of research or other evidence that afflicting bruises and blemishes by scraping is any good for anything. Only repetitively failing attempts at clever rhetorical retaliation.
(S)he even claims, again without any evidence or physical explanation, that the bruising only appears when an underlying problem is present and being treated.
There are people out there, decorating themselves with fancy Dr.-titles and flashy academic affiliations who purport to be experts at this archaic activity. They claim to have performed research that supports its clinical use, but when you look under the rug its nothing but smoke, mirrors and wishful thinking. To have the
gutsgullibility to even suggest you can positively affect Hepatitis B by injuring the skin, that’s what I call delusions of doctoral grandeur.If ‘jm’ wants us to stop smirking and shaking our heads at her/his narcissistic whining and take her/him seriously, (s)he will have to start procuring some credible evidence of what mechanism(s) the method may work through. Something that does not involve imaginary, undetectable “forces” with exotic names or wishful inferences drawn from measurements of the normal physiologic reaction to injury. And even better, show us the way to some honest and sensible controlled and bias avoiding clinical evidence, not hearsay reports and gullible, cherry-picked anecdotes.
It is sad to realize that a grown up (we assume?) who argues with the prowess of a preschooler, is selling felonious injury to gullible persons as a treatment for disease and ailments. There is probably a law somewhere against injuring others under false pretense but the protective power of the prefix “health-” never ceases to astonish.
What makes me extra sad, is that genuine doctors who make a mistake, or who simply fail to meet the unrealistic wishes (expectations) of patients, are being sued into oblivion, while doctors-with-a-diploma who sell quackery, and ordinary quacks are essentially being left undisturbed. When I see a clown like Dr. Oz, my blood boils, when I see a charlatan like Prince Charles, I have to puke. This jm character is just as disgusting, but seems to be able to continue to gull people without having to give it a second thought. Sociopaths like this should not be allowed to play these dangerous games.
Isn’t there something seriously wrong here? Isn’t it bad enough that we have priests and imams and rabbis and other bozos taking peoples’ money for lying to them, that we also have to tolerate quacks and give them preferential treatment while doctors are being accused of deliberately poisoning us and killing us for no other reason than that second Mercedes, all while they are in reality part of a system that has essentially doubled our life expectancy at birth in a bit over a century?
Quacks in Ontario with the intellectual powers of a demented parsnip make more money for blabbing on the phone, than doctors fighting to save the life of their patient, and nothing is done about this?
@jm,
“Frank – interesting links. Did you read them? You should put on your critical thinking cap, step back, and objectively look at your comments. Since you brought it up, I’ll use gua sha as an example. (but I can only assume you follow the same protocol for homeopathy, acupuncture, etc)”
Yes, I did. That might be why I posted them, only a wild guess on my part, of course.
The references said gua sha is in the same stream as acupuncture. Your amusing discussion with Sasha, on another thread, seems to support this. Since I haven’t found pink unicorns on those threads, I will treat gua sha the same.
“The few websites (and it’s pretty obvious which ones) that form the entirety of your gua sha understanding has left you pretty ignorant of a very simple folk therapy. It’s pretty basic physical medicine, and provides instant feedback. Nothing supernatural about it, easy as pie.”
Nothing supernatural? Something that involves the metaphysical isn’t supernatural? Well, slap me with a wet fish, who would have thought?
“If you don’t have a basic understanding…how can you even begin to assess the quality of the research? Quite obviously, you can’t.”
Another interesting conclusion. Does this mean Prof Ernst should not waste his time reading RCTs as he doesn’t have a “basic understanding”? Hey Prof, give all this up because you are clearly not versed enough.
“If you can’t evaluate the research, you are reliant on the assessment of others. You have to have faith that they have a basic understanding, and can evaluate the research. You also have to have faith that the researchers had enough of an understanding to properly research.”
When the conclusion of studies presents as feeble, statistically unsound, or a waste of time, does this mean I am incapable of understanding? Another interesting assumption.
“You, my friend, are a true believer who has been led astray – putting you faith in those who have looked at a couple more websites than you have.”
Wrong on both counts. (And the Tu Quoque came as predicted. Very lame indeed.)
I this is all very amusing but I have important things to do. Looking out of my study window (it is 10:35 am here), I can see a winged, purple pig streaking across the sky. Must away to investigate.
Bjorn – I’ve been trying to figure out where you were getting your askew gua sha info, so I started doing google searches (looking for obscure techniques, theory, application…some clue as to where you were coming from).
Just before giving up, decided to simply google “what is gua sha”. Lo and behold, if you take snippets from the first page of the google results…your research. You do have to do some mixing, matching, omitting, and conflating, but all the pieces are there.
[I even found where you get the “small vessels in your skin break…” from. You know better than that. But quoting the misquote makes a benign therapy sound moderately more ‘dangerous’. Don’t worry – your secret is safe with me.]
Frank – you’ve got a bit of Kool-Aid on your lip.
‘jm’s world-view is a bit strange. It searches for anything that fits its own fantasies and needs and interprets what it finds ad libitum. The latest blurb is no exception. No substance, no dialog, only the usual immature innuendoes and incoherent efforts at sounding clever.
Probably a very interesting psychological phenomenon for those who study such, but very trying for anyone with a reasonably rational mind.
Frank –
“The references said gua sha is in the same stream as acupuncture.” Not really. You need to look at more references. Scraping is a tool, like acupuncture. They’re both used by doctors. So is ginger.
Scraping is used all over the world, not just in China. It’s also way older than acupuncture. Ginger is used all over the world, and is way older than acupuncture. hmmm….maybe it’s scraping and ginger that are in the same stream. And, you can scrape with ginger. hmmm again.
“Something that involves the metaphysical isn’t supernatural?” Scraping doesn’t involve the supernatural or the metaphysical. Only a tool with a relatively dull edge. Or a slice of ginger. Again, you need to do more research.
“When the conclusion of studies presents as feeble, statistically unsound, or a waste of time, does this mean I am incapable of understanding?” Nope. But your question seems to indicate that you are incapable of understanding what I said.
I’m sure you’ve also limited your research on acupuncture and Chinese medical theory to a few websites, based on your comments. I can only assume that you’ve done the same amount of research on homeopathy, chiropractics, etc etc. I can only assume, because I don’t know anything about them. But, it would be pretty crazy to trust your assessments, eh?
I do enjoy reading your comments, though. I really like your recent one about harassing the political canvasser. Hopefully you ended that interaction with a righteous indignation style “Get off my lawn!”.
@jm
I know your comment’s aimed at a different Frank, but this one happens to have searched Ovid-Medline back to 1946 for articles with the words “gua sha” in the title. There were 17 hits, including one duplicate citation, so the world (nominally) peer-reviewed medical literature contains just 16 references specifically about gua sha. Almost all in complementary medicine journals. Wow!
Try Chiu et al., . J Nurs Res. 18(1):1-10, 2010: “The Gua-Sha protocol selected appropriate acupoint positions, which included ST16, ST18, SP17, and CV17. Each position was lightly scraped seven times in two cycles.” Yeah, sure, there’s no relation between gua sha and acupuncture. Chinese medicine exponents tend to mix all their archaic, medically obsolete nonsense into one envelope.
While I’m at it, I was struck by a comment in the summary of Lam et al., Complement Ther Med. 23(1):46-54, 2015, about the use of gua sha in Hong Kong. “Gua sha…users were seen to be old of age and less educated.”
@jm,
As much as I think you are an irrational loon, who writes complete nonsense, some of this crap needs rebutting;
*************************************************************************
“The references said gua sha is in the same stream as acupuncture.” Not really. You need to look at more references. Scraping is a tool, like acupuncture. They’re both used by doctors. So is ginger.
*************************************************************************
Putting aside the ridiculous ginger reference (another testimony to your loon status), this is what these websites have to say about stick scraping;
http://www.healthtraditions.com.au/essays/gua-sha.htm
Qi and blood are both warm by nature, so when these two become compressed, as happens with blockage or stagnation, heat manifests and concentrates into a new substance, which is sha. Sha and the associated discolouration also contains the pathogenic factor(s) responsible for the blockage, and when it has been released, normal integrity of the area is restored due to the qi and blood being able to resume flowing smoothly.
http://www.doctoroz.com/blog/jamie-starkey-lac/scrape-away-pain-gua-sha
Gua sha is a common practice in Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM), and an invaluable technique in an acupuncturist’s armamentarium.
Gua sha is an ancient healing technique used by many clinicians of TCM. In this procedure, a lubricating medium, such as massage oil, is applied to the skin of the area to be treated. A smooth-edged instrument is used by the acupuncturist to apply short or long strokes on the skin, typically in the area of pain or on the back parallel to the spine. This stroking motion creates raised redness (petechiae) or bruising (ecchymosis).
But, of course, you know better.
*************************************************************************
Scraping is used all over the world, not just in China. It’s also way older than acupuncture. Ginger is used all over the world, and is way older than acupuncture. hmmm….maybe it’s scraping and ginger that are in the same stream. And, you can scrape with ginger. hmmm again.
*************************************************************************
More loon rubbish.
*************************************************************************
“Something that involves the metaphysical isn’t supernatural?” Scraping doesn’t involve the supernatural or the metaphysical. Only a tool with a relatively dull edge. Or a slice of ginger. Again, you need to do more research.
*************************************************************************
Research into what? Another instance of unsubstantiated witchcraft you use to fleece gullible people of their hard-earned?
Something which involves qi involves the metaphysical. Is it too hard to understand?
*************************************************************************
“When the conclusion of studies presents as feeble, statistically unsound, or a waste of time, does this mean I am incapable of understanding?” Nope. But your question seems to indicate that you are incapable of understanding what I said.
*************************************************************************
I am incapable of understanding the incomprehensible, something of which you are a master.
*************************************************************************
I’m sure you’ve also limited your research on acupuncture and Chinese medical theory to a few websites, based on your comments. I can only assume that you’ve done the same amount of research on homeopathy, chiropractics, etc etc. I can only assume, because I don’t know anything about them. But, it would be pretty crazy to trust your assessments, eh?*************************************************************************
Homeopathy breaks the laws of nature, chiropractic is premised on “Innate Intelligence” (energy from the xian good), and the rest of them are similar. I have done a lot of reading on many of these and they are all alt-med for good reason.
Also, of course, the prof knows absolutely nothing about alt-med despite having studied it in great detail for how many years?
*************************************************************************
I do enjoy reading your comments, though. I really like your recent one about harassing the political canvasser. Hopefully you ended that interaction with a righteous indignation style “Get off my lawn!”.
*************************************************************************
Harrassment? No, just asked some relevant questions related to their policies to see if she understood that they did not make sense. It isn’t likely you would understand anything related to science or engineering either.
I don’t have a lawn or even a front yard, but you keep up the imaginings.
Where do you get this drivel?
Franko –
“Yeah, sure, there’s no relation between gua sha and acupuncture.”
It’s the same relation that massage has with acupuncture. Acupuncturists will use massage, and use it according to their medical theory (points, channels, qi, etc). Surely you don’t think that means massage is related to acupuncture?
Scraping and massage are tools – tools that are used by many different medical systems.
@jm
“Scraping and massage are tools” – tools that are used by many different medical systems.”
Different medical systems?! There is only one system of medicine: it uses science to establish realities of health and disease. The rest is bunk unless and until rigorous experiments are designed to demonstrate efficacy, in which case they become part of medicine.
Franko – sorry about that. I’ll translate for you, and replace your trigger words with ‘witchcraft’:
………………
“Yeah, sure, there’s no relation between gua sha and acupuncture.”
It’s the same relation that massage has with acupuncture. Acupuncturists will use massage, and use it according to their witchcraft theory (points, channels, qi, etc). Surely you don’t think that means massage is related to acupuncture?
Scraping and massage are tools – tools that are used by many different witchcraft systems.
………………
Hopefully that will help you understand that gua sha comes from folk witchcraft, and some professional witches & warlocks saw it as a useful tool for their own witchcraft…and started using it in their magic system that was developed over time through observation, experimentation, verification, application (a process that is outdated and has no relation to modern science). They described the process and effects using the language of their witchcraft (qi, blood, yin, yang, etc), and applied it to their magical anatomy of points and channels (instead of just ‘places that hurt’, like the folk witches & warlocks were doing).
They did the same thing with massage. Acupuncture, on the other hand, is probably from the realm of the professional witches and warlocks. Different stream.
Hope that helps.
Frank –
You actually found a page that explains gua sha better than I ever could. Thanks for that. (No, not the Dr Oz page – the other one.) Hopefully you read the whole thing and didn’t just skim for words you consider supernatural/metaphysical. You would have read:
“…under “normal” circumstances, there is no way that such discolouration would appear.”
“He was surprised and relieved to learn that, far from being painful, gua sha can be performed to the same effect in a gentle and pleasant manner…”
“A simple measure to be certain the force used is correct is to ask the person receiving if they are comfortable with the pressure. “
Etc etc.
So, here are my final comments, and I’ll leave you to your own devices.
First, about your comments “As much as I think you are an irrational loon, who writes complete nonsense…” and “Putting aside the ridiculous ginger reference (another testimony to your loon status)…”. Personally, I didn’t think there would be many references to scraping with ginger slices on the web. As it turns out, it’s more common than I thought. It’s even on the Wikipedia gua sha page. There are numerous other sites that get into specifics, if you’re interested.
Second, I hope you don’t find “Qi and blood are both warm by nature…etc” supernatural or metaphysical in any way. Qi in this context is referring to the movement of blood. Blood is referring to the red liquid stuff inside of bodies. Sha is basically referring to blood that hasn’t circulated the way it should (hence the ‘new substance’, to differentiate if from properly moving blood). All natural, all physical.
If that’s too hard to grasp, read my comment to Franko. Chinese medicine adopted the use of gua sha, and explain it using their own terminology. Or some practitioners do. Many others still consider gua sha simple folk medicine, not the realm of real doctors. Something you do at home.
Third, you’ve made some references to gua sha being some kind of scam to get money from people. I should probably tell you how ridiculous that is. Acupuncturists actually loose money if they do gua sha. It takes hands-on time that could be spent putting needles in other patients. Massage-wise, it’s more labor intensive than doing deep compressive work. Then there’s the whole marking thing. If you’ve never experienced it, you will ignorantly assume that it hurts. Explaining the process, getting consent, thoroughly explaining post treatment care all cuts into hands on time. And I don’t know any acupuncturists or massage therapists that charge extra for gua sha (I’m sure they’re out there, but they are the exception, not the rule.) It’s a tool that’s used when it’s the best one for the job.
Take it or leave it. Either way, have a great day.
@jm,
“Third, you’ve made some references to gua sha being some kind of scam to get money from people. I should probably tell you how ridiculous that is. Acupuncturists actually loose money if they do gua sha. It takes hands-on time that could be spent putting needles in other patients.”
And, of course, you only do this stuff because you are full of magnanimity (as opposed to what I think you are full of)? Please, find someone who is gullible?
“Qi and blood are both warm by nature, so when these two become compressed, as happens with blockage or stagnation, heat manifests and concentrates into a new substance, which is sha. Sha and the associated discolouration also contains the pathogenic factor(s) responsible for the blockage, and when it has been released, normal integrity of the area is restored due to the qi and blood being able to resume flowing smoothly.”
This isn’t metaphysical? Only you (or some other equally deluded loon) would say it wasn’t.
Alt-med attracts people who have a deficit in logic, reason and rationality. Who might that be?
[laff]
Elvis is alive. I saw him on NetFlix the other day and he didn’t look like a corpse to me, nor did he stink up my room. So, it’s true. And Bryce Wylde said on Dr. Oz that homeopathy works. So, if Elvis is still alive, homeopathy must be working as well, because Bryce Wylde is a friend of Dr. Oz and they both don’t lie and they were on television.
There. Proof positive. Try to weasel out of that one, you European rationalist!
[/laff]
For Americans and homeopaths: the above is meant as a joke. It’s not true. It is a lie.
@Rick
And loads of people won’t walk under ladders, carry a rabbit’s foot, cross themselves. So what? Can you seriously not comprehend that the fact that lots of people do something, even to the point there’s an industry in it (astrology, all the religions), this doesn’t make it right?! You keep on posting these pointless statistics: you seem to think that large numbers of people can’t be wrong. You are mistaken.
Alternative therapists now outnumber GPs in the UK, universities run courses on alternative medicine and the industry receives £500 million a year from the NHS.
This is despite the fact that, according to scientists Dr Simon Singh and Dr Edzard Ernst, there is little evidence that many of the treatments actually work, and, in some cases, may even prove unsafe.
And despite homeopathy’s impressive popularity in Europe, it is actually even more popular in India where over 100 million people depend solely on this form of medical care (2).
[I can’t understand how you think your smarter then 100 million people that depend on this type of health care] [It really registers as stupidity on your part]
Further, according to an A.C. Neilsen survey in India, 62 percent of current homeopathy users have never tried conventional medicines and 82 percent of homeopathy users would not switch to conventional treatments (3).
Further more, why does one waste their life, working in a career they don’t believe works????
Ernst qualified as a physician in Germany in 1978 where he also completed his M.D. and Ph.D. theses. He has received training in acupuncture, autogenic training, herbalism, homoeopathy, massage therapy and spinal manipulation.[6] He learned homeopathy, acupuncture and other things[7] whilst at a homeopathic hospital in Munich, when he began his medical career.[1]
you are getting an expert in logical fallacies!
well done!
@Rick,
If you are going to cut and paste, at least give the attribution. (The numbers give it away and, if you were smart enough, you would realise.)
Frank Collins – I’m sure you could found this yourself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edzard_Ernst
@Rick,
It is up to the person quoting to give the attribution, not the readers to try to find it. Have you ever been to a real school?
Oh no! Not another dullman parrot. 🙁
Why should anyone believe what Professor Edzard Ernst says, after he put his name to a BBC programme, he now describes as “deception”.
http://www.chiropracticlive.com/why-should-anyone-believe-what-professor-edzard-ernst-says-after-he-put-his-name-to-a-bbc-programme-he-now-describes-as-deception/
oh dear, where did you find this old chestnut again?
here is the story again for those who are too slow or too dim to get it the first 10 times I explained it:
I was hired by the BBC to check the text for this program which I did and I made them alter it on several occasions. when I saw that the text was not in line with the visual material, I supported Simon Singh’s complaint. the text described surgery with no other anaesthetic than acupuncture; the film showed a patient who had acupuncture and several i. v. leads.
HAPPY NOW?
[I doubt it]
Ezard Ernst is blaming Prince Charles for costing him his job? Seems Ernst can dish it out, but not so good at taking it.
http://www.chiropracticlive.com/ezard-ernst-is-blaming-prince-charles-for-costing-him-his-job-seems-ernst-can-dish-it-out-but-not-so-good-at-taking-it/
@Rick
??!! Can you read?! The piece you link to is written entirely neutrally, but comes over mainly as another strike against Prince Charles. There’s nothing in the article suggesting that Ernst “is not so good at taking it”. Prof. Ernst has spelt out in detail in his autobiography A scientist in wonderland and several times on this blog (most recently http://edzardernst.com/2015/06/the-spider-memo-which-the-press-forgot/) how his post at Exeter University was effectively shut down by meddling from Prince Charles’s office.
What Ernst dishes out is dispassionate, rational science applied to medical quackery. All you have ever done is paste endless pieces from websites about how many people use altmed, as if popularity is evidence for something more than popularity. You seriously need to learn how to think and reason if you’re going to post comments that induce anything more than irritated laughter. Always remember: if you think you’re good, you’re comparing yourself with the wrong people. (And yes, that applies to me, too, but I am sufficiently aware of those far better that I can spot those who don’t even realize how dumb they appear.)
thanks, but is it worth bothering with someone as daft as Rick?
@Edzard
You’re right. I shouldn’t respond to trolls.
@FrankO
your responses along with others on this site are educating me about how to use rational debate to debunk idiots. Long may it continue. So in response to Edzards’ comment “but is it worth bothering with someone as daft as Rick?” YES, not for their sake but mine. thank you.
Perhaps not, but I am not sure. In my experience, virtually all alternologists are trolls or resemble them so closely that the distinction becomes academic. When we don’t respond, doesn’t that make us look as though we are agreeing with what they claim, however dopey their claims may be?
Just tried to figure out why I can not get Traumeel in Canada any more. And unfortunately stumbled over this
web page…Can not believe how many “doctors” have been brain washed over the decades. That is why medicine studies were changed from 2 years plus 3 years practice along experienced doctors to 5 years of systematic indoctrination financed by big Pharma.
@Mico,
Big pharma?
I can only assume you mean that every person who has ever walked through the doors of a pharmaceutical company to start work there has been brainwashed to believe the “big Pharma” way? It also means they don’t have a wife or husband, children, brothers, sisters, grandparents, any other family, friends, lovers or anyone else to whom they might have regard, only “big Pharma”?
You are what normal people refer to as a “nutbag conspiracy theorist”; a fruitloop who I cross the street to avoid.
And Traumeel has virtually no “active” ingredients so your “cure” is a placebo, yep, all in your conspiracy filled head.
In which country would that be? I know of not a single country that has medical studies that take only 2 years. It’s barely enough to learn basic anatomy.
Hello, I am sadly disheartened by this ruling. I think the Europeans are far advanced of us, with their insistence against GMO, (they do not allow it) and the wonderful Heel products, among many other factors. I started using Heel products after 10 years of chronic illness that was debilitating and getting worse–I went to numerous doctors and specialists and no one had an answer. That is when I turned to naturopathy. After getting one of the Heel products, my lympathic swellings reduced noticeably after just one dose. Within a month I was back to normal. I continued to use the products for a recurrence, and am very sad that this product is off the market
If only Heel were able to provide good evidence that their product did what they claimed it could do…
Seems simple enough just to try it yourself.
Simple indeed, if you have the ethics of Jack the Ripper.
I have no idea what Europeans you are talking about, but the ones that live in the European Union, on the European continent of this planet, most definitely allow GMO. These people have thinking brains and they are not stupid. Of course they allow GMO foods, and here is the site to go to, to apply for a licence: http://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/gmo/gmoapplications.htm
Wow a lot of comments about this product… I now realize what I thought is now true. My Parents 81 & 85 yrs.old could tell the difference. They didn’t even know there had been a change in the formula ! No matter how much the “naysayers” try it won’t change the “fact” that my parents can tell ! I had nothing but trying to help their pain in mind. My mom has been taken off of the “naproxin” because it is the one thing that the doctor said was causing her kidney numbers to go up. They have tried many other creams & gels that didn’t do as good a job. They also smelled, stung or had “side effects” too. We didn’t know about Traumeel until her Chiropractor said it might help. We had no more expectations for it than the ohter creams & gels before it. How do they “know” it helps? Daily usage! No Pain ! They were not sleeping thru the night good. Now they do ! The Traumeel Tablets helped my mom just be able to get her mind off her pain in order to fall asleep. The newer ones we have bought don’t … We see a difference daily !
I hope this post can help the “very brilliant”, “schooled” people, that come on this site to put down any thought of Traumeel being a very good pain reliever, know that their comments and arguments really don’t have any effect on a person who is trying to find out how to purchase the original formula ! We already know its value ! They really are wasting their time. My next thought I guess is… maybe “they are getting paid” to continue to waste their time and energy. That would make sense of it all !!
@Whatsallthefussabout on Monday 25 January 2016 at 21:18,
“We didn’t know about Traumeel until her Chiropractor said it might help.”
Well, now we know what your mindset is; you believe in faith-healers and witchcraft.
“My next thought I guess is… maybe “they are getting paid” to continue to waste their time and energy. That would make sense of it all !!”
This just makes you look like more of an idiot that first was obvious. Maybe you should spend money to learn how to write correctly, and no, there is no space between the last letter and the punctuation mark. Having more than one exclamation mark does not add emphasis and only highlights the first sentence of this paragraph.
2 ingredients in Traumeel were removed, leaving us with T-Relief. These 2 ingredients are no longer available OTC, only by prescription!
Which ingredients?
Before I became a nutritionist, I was totally reliant on medications for my ill health. Taking those medications over the years created more health problems for me. My condition was increasingly morbid like most people on medications. Besides my diet and exercise, I was able to wean myself from medications with proper supplementation. The only change to my lifestyle was taking supplements because I always exercise and eat a healthy diet. However, diet alone in many cases of chronic disease, does not work. I can safely say this also applies to acute conditions. I am now healthy and very satisfied with alternative (homeopathic) medicine. Some of my ailments were:
. Hypertension
. arrhythmia
. Gallstone
. Edema
. Joint Pain
. Acid Reflux
. Angina
. Dyslipidemia
. UTI
. Allergies
. Rhinitis
. Bloting
. Fatigue
. and many more
@ Leonard Barrett, Clinical Nutritionist on Thursday 02 June 2016 at 20:36
You seem more like a hypochondriac than a nutritionist.
Thanks for your reply. Just to make it clear, I do believe in complimentary and alternative medicine based on science. However,total dependence on traditional medicine is the old paradigm. If you or someone you know has a condition do your research on Pubmed, NIH, CDC or any credible institution, nationally or internationally, on alternative medicine about that condition before or while under a doctor’s care. You might be doing yourself or some one a whole lot of good. One of the factors why the health of our nation is under stress is due to prescription drug overdose as recently reported. The most recent data show that there is a significant increase in the mortality rate for the entire USA. This usually never happen for an entire nation. Excessive use of medication, just like excessive use of antibiotics has become a problem – a big problem. Many doctors are now directly or indirectly using the science behind alternative or complementary medicine to help their patients. Finally, please respond to my reply with scientific research or data not emotion nor ignorance. Please read the study below from the NIH:
US National Library of Medicine
National Institutes of Health
Toxicol Int. 2012 Jan-Apr; 19(1): 68–73.
doi: 10.4103/0971-6580.94506
PMCID: PMC3339249
A Survey on Polypharmacy and Use of Inappropriate Medications
Sujit Rambhade, Anup Chakarborty, Anand Shrivastava, Umesh K. Patil, and Ashish Rambhade1
Author information ► Copyright and License information ►
This article has been cited by other articles in PMC.
Go to:
Abstract
In the past, polypharmacy was referred to the mixing of many drugs in one prescription. Today polypharmacy implies to the prescription of too many medications for an individual patient, with an associated higher risk of adverse drug reactions (ADRs) and interactions. Situations certainly exist where the combination therapy or polytherapy is the used for single disease condition. Polypharmacy is a problem of substantial importance, in terms of both direct medication costs and indirect medication costs resulting from drug-related morbidity. Polypharmacy increases the risk of side effects and interactions. Moreover it is a preventable problem. A retrospective study was carried out at Bhopal district (Capital of Madhya Pradesh, India) in the year of September-November 2009 by collecting prescriptions of consultants at various levels of health care. The tendency of polypharmacy was studied and analyzed under the various heads in the survey. Available data suggests that polypharmacy is a widespread problem, and physician, clinical pharmacists and patients are all responsible. These risks can be minimized through identifying the prevalence of this potential problem in a high-risk population and by increasing awareness among patients and healthcare professionals. Physicians and clinical pharmacists have the potential to combating this problem through a variety of interventions such as reducing the number of medications taken, reducing the number of doses taken, increasing patient adherence, preventing ADRs, improving patient quality of life and decreasing facility and drug costs.
Keywords: Adverse drug reactions, clinical survey, inappropriate medication, polypharmacy, preventions
‘total dependence on traditional medicine is the old paradigm’
No! I think you are mistaken: the only paradigm in medicine is to give the best therapy currently available.
Yes I agree with your statement: “the only paradigm in medicine is to give the best therapy currently available”. That is the reason, as I stated in my post, that I believe in complementary or alternative medicine. However, the body cannot heal itself without nutrition. The reason why medication is given to a patient is because it is estimated that the benefits outweigh the risk. It is not that medications offer any nutritional value. Again, please reply with scientific data and read the research I posted fully – not only the abstract. I appreciate it.
Indeed. Without nutrition, the body dies. Ask any anorexia patient. Do you really think that doctors are somehow too dense to know that? And what exactly entitles you to imply that “therapy” is only about medication?
Regarding nutrition, maybe you could explain why alternologists are so fond of “one-third of an avocado”? Would “one small avocado” not be better advice? Or is it not complicated and expensive enough for their customers?
Thanks for your reply. Please do some research on comprehensive and alternative medicine (CAM). Here are the results of a study done by US National Library of Medicine National Institutes of Health Search database Search term Clear input: Approximately 40% of the US population report using complementary and alternative medicine, including Maharishi Vedic Medicine (MVM), a traditional, comprehensive system of natural medicine, for relief from chronic and other disorders. Although many reports suggest health benefits from individual MVM techniques, reports on integrated holistic approaches are rare. This case series, designed to investigate the effectiveness of an integrated, multi-modality MVM program in an ideal clinical setting, describes the outcomes in four patients: one with sarcoidosis; one with Parkinson’s disease; a third with renal hypertension; and a fourth with diabetes/essential hypertension/anxiety disorder. Standard symptom reports and objective markers of disease were evaluated before, during, and after the treatment period. Results suggested substantial improvements as indicated by reductions in major signs, symptoms, and use of conventional medications in the four patients during the 3-week in-residence treatment phase and continuing through the home follow-up program.
Index Terms: complementary and alternative medicine, chronic disease, Maharishi Vedic Medicine, natural medicine
Chronic diseases are a major public health problem in the United States. Currently, the prevalence of chronic diseases is about 40% in the US population with approximately 100 million Americans suffering from at least one chronic disorder.1 This high prevalence raises concerns about the efficacy and limitations of conventional healthcare approaches in preventing and treating these disorders.
By-the-way, avocado is very nutritious. It has high concentrations of monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fats. Avocados can help consumers meet the heart-healthy diet goals of the American Heart Association. “It contributes good fats to one’s diet, providing 3 grams monounsaturated fat and 0.5 polyunsaturated grams fat per 1-oz. serving”. One of my favorite foods is avocado. I eat about three or four per week.
“Poisoning the well too, I see. I will respond by saying; since you are making the claims, it is up to you to put up”.
I have done just that. I have cited more than one study – you have not. Please respond with credible scientific data. Thank you.
@ Leonard on Sunday 05 June 2016 at 17:43
“I do believe”
Why is it necessary to “believe” in any form of medicine; either it has been properly tested and evidence shows it works, or it doesn’t.
“in complimentary(sic) and alternative medicine based on science”
The Prof has been doing this for a long time and hasn’t found any complementary (note the correct spelling) or alternative so-called medicines that work. If you have some evidence (real evidence, not some meaningless anecdote), please post it here? My bet is there will be nothing forthcoming.
“total dependence on traditional medicine is the old paradigm”
I didn’t realise there was an old and new paradigm in medicine, only the continued progression of science and research. I also didn’t realise you were a doctor, just an ill-informed, hypochondriac nutritionist who makes unsustainable claims with an assortment of logical fallacies.
“If you or someone you know has a condition do your research on Pubmed, NIH, CDC or any credible institution, nationally or internationally, on alternative medicine about that condition before or while under a doctor’s care.”
See second point above.
“One of the factors why the health of our nation is under stress is due to prescription drug overdose as recently reported.”
What has this to do with your argument in favour of witchcraft? Oh, I see, you have invoked the false dichotomy fallacy, as do most who advocate for alternative nonsense.
“Many doctors are now directly or indirectly using the science behind alternative or complementary medicine to help their patients.”
An absurd claim and devoid of any evidence at all. There is a theme here.
“Finally, please respond to my reply with scientific research or data not emotion nor ignorance.”
Poisoning the well too, I see. I will respond by saying; since you are making the claims, it is up to you to put up.
Thank you for your reply. However, you have not stated one credible evidence from any credible study to validate your argument that CAM does not work. Please do some research on comprehensive and alternative medicine (CAM). Here are the results of a study done by US National Library of Medicine National Institutes of Health Search database Search term Clear input: Approximately 40% of the US population report using complementary and alternative medicine, including Maharishi Vedic Medicine (MVM), a traditional, comprehensive system of natural medicine, for relief from chronic and other disorders. Although many reports suggest health benefits from individual MVM techniques, reports on integrated holistic approaches are rare. This case series, designed to investigate the effectiveness of an integrated, multi-modality MVM program in an ideal clinical setting, describes the outcomes in four patients: one with sarcoidosis; one with Parkinson’s disease; a third with renal hypertension; and a fourth with diabetes/essential hypertension/anxiety disorder. Standard symptom reports and objective markers of disease were evaluated before, during, and after the treatment period. Results suggested substantial improvements as indicated by reductions in major signs, symptoms, and use of conventional medications in the four patients during the 3-week in-residence treatment phase and continuing through the home follow-up program.
Index Terms: complementary and alternative medicine, chronic disease, Maharishi Vedic Medicine, natural medicine
Chronic diseases are a major public health problem in the United States. Currently, the prevalence of chronic diseases is about 40% in the US population with approximately 100 million Americans suffering from at least one chronic disorder.1 This high prevalence raises concerns about the efficacy and limitations of conventional healthcare approaches in preventing and treating these disorders.
@ Leonard on Wednesday 08 June 2016 at 00:12
“However, you have not stated one credible evidence from any credible study to validate your argument that CAM does not work.”
I don’t need to do any research; it is up to the claimant to verify the claim. Using a Logical Fallacy, so basic as this, is a common and failed tactic used by alt-med.
“Please do some research on comprehensive and alternative medicine (CAM). Here are the results of a study done by US National Library of Medicine National Institutes of Health Search database Search term Clear input: Approximately 40% of the US population report using complementary and alternative medicine, including Maharishi Vedic Medicine (MVM), a traditional, comprehensive system of natural medicine, for relief from chronic and other disorders.”
Another Fallacy, Argumentum ad Populum. It would not matter whether a whole country used alt-med; either something works or it doesn’t. Einstein was right when he said human stupidity is infinite.
“Although many reports suggest health benefits from individual MVM techniques, reports on integrated holistic approaches are rare. This case series, designed to investigate the effectiveness of an integrated, multi-modality MVM program in an ideal clinical setting, describes the outcomes in four patients: one with sarcoidosis; one with Parkinson’s disease; a third with renal hypertension; and a fourth with diabetes/essential hypertension/anxiety disorder. Standard symptom reports and objective markers of disease were evaluated before, during, and after the treatment period. Results suggested substantial improvements as indicated by reductions in major signs, symptoms, and use of conventional medications in the four patients during the 3-week in-residence treatment phase and continuing through the home follow-up program.
Index Terms: complementary and alternative medicine, chronic disease, Maharishi Vedic Medicine, natural medicine”
Four case reports? Are you serious? An A versus A+B study is worthless, more so in such small number.
“Chronic diseases are a major public health problem in the United States. Currently, the prevalence of chronic diseases is about 40% in the US population with approximately 100 million Americans suffering from at least one chronic disorder.1 This high prevalence raises concerns about the efficacy and limitations of conventional healthcare approaches in preventing and treating these disorders.”
No, it means people in the US are living longer and getting fatter, nothing more. It is nothing more than a Red Herring. Of course there are limitations on any form of real medicine but, at least, it is tested.
If that is the best you have, please don’t bother. There are only so many Logical Fallacies before I spew.
I am so sorry for the typo in my post. However, a fallacy, by definition, is a defective statement. You have not posted any evidence (credible research) to invalidate the importance of complementary medicine to the medical profession. I do not understand what your position really is. If no evidence exist to support ones position, then his argument is defective (fallacious). Please respond with evidence.
@ Leonard on Friday 22 July 2016 at 23:14
Sorry, I missed this but here we go.
“I am so sorry for the typo in my post.”
While typos happen to all of us, I picked on that because you are an advocate for complementary nonsense but couldn’t spell the word.
“However, a fallacy, by definition, is a defective statement.”
Err, not quite, it is this, “A fallacy is an incorrect argument in logic and rhetoric which undermines an argument’s logical validity or more generally an argument’s logical soundness. Fallacies are either formal fallacies or informal fallacies.” from here, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies.
“You have not posted any evidence (credible research) to invalidate the importance of complementary medicine to the medical profession.”
This is the fallacy you invoke, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof.
I don’t have to prove anything because you are making the claim. The burden of proof lies with you and you haven’t attempted to discharge your onus.
“I do not understand what your position really is.”
Because you don’t seem to have a grasp on logic and reason, you behave as do other alt-meds; make completely unsustainable claims and assert an argument proven, with others left with the job of disproving the claims. If you make a claim, the onus is on you to prove that claim.
Why do you think so much effort and money went to experiments on gravity waves? The Theory of Relativity was met with abject indifference when it was published. As more people understood it, all of the mathematical claims of the theory have been tested and all of them have been found to be true. You rely on this theory in everyday life but don’t realise it.
The last part was the finding of evidence for gravity waves. What you don’t grasp is that science, real science, must test all of its claims. That is why finding evidence of gravity waves was so crucial and is the final vindication of Einstein’s claim made in the early 1900s.
On the other hand, you make extraordinary claims and provide no evidence yet you can’t work out why you are met with incredulity.
“If no evidence exist to support ones position, then his argument is defective (fallacious). Please respond with evidence.”
The point is this; you have no evidence and your claims can be dismissed without consideration (to paraphrase Hitchens).
There are SO many posts. It is a bit confusing. Where and Who conducted independent studies as to the efficacy and comparison between patients using Traumeel vs. the ones using T-Relief? I have been using Traumeel for a few years and it really works well. However, since Traumeel has been discontinued and unless you are residing outside the U.S., then T-Relief is a viable option. I will definitely try using T-Relief and hopefully it will be as effective as Traumeel was.
I am so sorry for the typo in my post. However, a fallacy, by definition, is a defective statement. You have not posted any evidence (credible research) to invalidate the importance of complementary medicine to the medical profession. I do not understand what you position really is. If no evidence exist to support ones position then his argument is defective (fallacious). Please respond with evidence.
I am a Dr. of Oriental medicine, a Naturopath, and developer of the JMT Technique which has been taught to an estimated 80,000 health providers (MD, DO, DC, RN, DOM, L.Ac, DVM) t/o USA and Europe. (Google search JMT Technique, Dr. Carolyn Jaffe, Jaffe-Mellor Technique) for further information. I have been sharing my practice with a critical care RN (40 years experience) since 1993. It is obvious that I do not dispense synthetic drugs under my license, yet have between 75-100% success rate with my patents. In some cases I find it beneficial to use Oriental herbs; in other cases homeopathy, and do this along with JMT Technique and other therapies that I have found beneficial to my patients. I practice in Florida and am able to purchase physician-grade Traumeel and many other homeopathic remedies through accredited pharmacies. I would not recommend purchasing any of these items through Amazon – – the potency is minimal, and the price is high.
We all have opinions based on preformed conclusions, so rather than bickering, I am simply providing the results from Randomized Controlled Clinical Trials (RCT) – Evidence of effect. Due to time and space constraints here on this site, I am providing a small excerpt; you are welcome to view these same test results. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3085232/
A PubMed (PubMed comprises more than 26 million citations for biomedical literature from MEDLINE, life science journals, and online books.) search was carried out to identify trials on Traumeel use in adults (full publications, in English or with English translation), associated with sports injuries, musculoskeletal traumatic injuries, and injuries accompanied by inflammation. Studies in pediatrics, inflammatory disorders, such as stomatitis and asthma, and use in surgery and dentistry, were excluded. The manufacturer was also contacted to ensure all relevant fully published studies were included. The studies of Traumeel use in adults identified with traumatic injuries can be reviewed in full.
CONCLUSION:
Nonrandomized observational studies and surveillance studies
While the randomized clinical trial is considered the “gold standard” for evaluating clinical therapies, patients enrolled into such trials (which exclude patients not meeting certain predefined criteria) may not be representative of the broad range of individuals treated in clinical practice.56 As such, the addition of observational, nonrandomized studies is considered to be complementary to these trials,57 particularly with regards to tolerability data. Their limitations (possible selection and evaluation bias) and advantages (more closely related to clinical practice) are well recognized; however, it is also reasonable to assume that physicians would like to see the best results for their patients regardless of treatment.
Traumeel has been compared with conventional therapy in multicenter, observational, nonrandomized studies where treatment groups were comparable at baseline. Traumeel has demonstrated noninferiority to NSAIDs (unspecified; 52%, diclofenac) in patients with diagnosed epicondylitis58 and to diclofenac, specifically, in patients with tendinopathy9 on all pain relief (eg, pain at rest, local pressure pain, pain with movements, and at muscle load and contraction) and joint mobility (eg, extensional and torsional joint mobility) variables.
Multicenter drug surveillance studies have indicated that Traumeel is frequently used for a variety of injuries, including bruises, sprains, hematomas, and post-traumatic edema, as well as degenerative and inflammatory conditions, such as arthrosis, frozen shoulder, carpal tunnel syndrome, and epicondylitis.59–61 Assessed in 3241 cases, Traumeel injection solution was used most frequently in arthrosis (19%), particularly in inflammation of the knee and degenerative joint diseases, and also for myogelosis (12%), sprains (12%), periarthropathia humer-oscapularis (10%), epicodylitis (10%), and tendinovaginitis (8%).59 Traumeel injection was used as monotherapy by 19% of patients; the percentage of these patients was highest for sprains (27%). Of 3422 patients using Traumeel ointment, this was most frequently applied for sprains (21%), followed by hematomas (8%), myogelosis (8%), contusion (8%), tenosynovitis (8%), and arthrosis (9%).60 Traumeel ointment was used as monotherapy by 38% of patients; it was applied as monotherapy in about half or more of patients with hematomas, contusions, and sprains. The effectiveness and tolerability of Traumeel is generally reported to be “very good” or “good”.
you failed to quote my SR https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=ernst+e%2C+homotoxicology
here is its abstract:
Homotoxicology is a form of therapy that uses homoeopathically diluted remedies with a view of eliminating toxins from the body. It is not a therapeutic method based on accepted scientific principles or biological plausibility. Yet numerous clinical studies have claimed efficacy. The aim of this systematic review is to summarise and critically evaluate the evidence from rigorous clinical trials of this form of therapy.
METHODS:
Seven electronic databases were searched for all studies of homotoxicological medicines for any human condition. To be included, trials had to be randomised and placebo-controlled. Data from such studies were validated and extracted according to pre-defined criteria. Their methodological quality was formally assessed using the Jadad score. Key data of all included trials were tabulated and summarised in narrative form.
RESULTS:
Seven trials met our inclusion criteria. Their Jadad scores indicated mostly a high methodological standard. The trials tested the efficacy of seven different medicines for seven different indications. The results were positive in all but one study. Important flaws were found in all trials. These render the results of the primary studies less reliable than their high Jadad scores might suggest.
CONCLUSION:
Despite mostly positive findings and high ratings on the Jadad score, the placebo-controlled, randomised clinical trials of homotoxicology fail to demonstrate the efficacy of this therapeutic approach.
PS
you are a doctor of what precisely?
I mentioned earlier that I am a Florida licensed Dr. of Oriental medicine (acupuncturist).
I see!
Well, you nearly did, but so what?
Carolyn Jaffe said
What’s that?
Sir, there are more than 200,000 explanations by health providers and patients on the web. There are also more than 300,00 hits in a Google search for Dr. Carolyn Jaffe.
Wishing you a healthful day.
That may be true, but couldn’t you just answer the question? I am wondering about the difference between Traumeel and physician-grade Traumeel myself, and I am sure many people are.
I looked for “physician-grade Traumeel” on Google. This was the result:
No results found for “physician-grade traumeel”.
I submit that this is not very much.
JMT™, or Jaffe-Mellor Technique, is a revolutionary new way to significantly reduce the pain and and in many cases completely resolve all symptoms associated with osteoarthritis, rheumatoid arthritis, fibromylagia, Crohn’s disease, and many other autoimmune disorders as well as, allergies, trauma-related and post-surgical pain syndromes, migraine, candida, digestive disorders, motor-sensory neurological disturbances and other neurological syndromes, recurrent subluxations and other musculoskeletal disturbances, skin conditions, and emotional/psychological disorders. JMT uses applied kinesiology and acupuncture or acupressure to address the source of these debilitating conditions. The Jaffe-Mellor Technique (JMT) includes an advanced muscle testing method, desensitization, deactivation, intervention, and acupressure.
The Reasearchers and Founders of The JMT Technique
Carolyn Jaffe, D.Ac., Dipl. NCCA is a board certified doctor of acupuncture and a doctoral candidate in Naturopathy with certifications in iridology, herbology, kinesiology, hypnotherapy, allergy elimination, intuitive healing, NLP, enzyme therapy, non-force manipulation, and a multitude of other techniques.
Oooh, subluxations, NLP and intuitive healing. Quack quack, quack quack.
This has nothing to do with subluxations, NLP and intuitive healing. I would be happy to explain that it has more to do the neurological pathways, signaling, the immune system, etc. but will not engage in any adult conversation when people name call. Nonetheless, you are certainly entitled to your opionions, but I will not return to any website when the conversation is rude.
The point is if you believe in subluxations, NLP, homeopathy or especially “intuitive healing” (and worse, you charge customers and make money from it and pretend to be able to “heal” sick people) nothing else you say regarding science has any credibility.
Interweb doctors, scientists and blowhards.
I know I had a good laugh at all of these opinions by crackpots who try to sound like they know what they are discussing.
What I got out of that was a bunch juveniles who tried to sound educated.
I guess some take to simple pleasures.
another great product gets trashed by a US capitalist!!
What on earth are you on about?
I received the Traumeell and Zell via a injection in each knee by a pain management doctor. One knee developed a massive infection and I got a e-coli UTI and shingles in the other leg. I asked the doctor and he told me that it could not be from the shots. I had 6 week of Vancomycin via IV. for the infection and 3 days in hospital with the UTI . I now still suffer from the shingles with a growing pain. Al three issues were the day after the shots. I wonder…