MD, PhD, FMedSci, FSB, FRCP, FRCPEd

You have to excuse me, if I keep coming back to this theme: so-called ‘alternative cancer cures’ are truly dangerous. I have tried to explain this already many times, for instance here, here and here. And it is by no means just alternative therapists who make a living of such quackery. Sadly qualified medical doctors are often involved as well. As to prove my point, here is a tragic story that broke yesterday:

Former Miss New Hampshire, Rachel Petz Dowd, lost her battle with cancer on Sunday 12 June 2016 — a battle she fought publicly through personal writings in a blog in hopes of helping others on a similar journey toward healing. The singer/songwriter and mother of three from Auburn died about a month after traveling to Mexico for an aggressive form of alternative cancer treatment. She turned 47 last week. Dowd was diagnosed with stage 2 triple negative breast cancer in May 2014. The diagnosis led her to create a blog called “Rachel’s Healing” to document what she hoped would be a journey back to health. “I hope my readers can gain something from my journey and that they find their own personal way to combat this disease impacting too many women today,” she wrote. Dowd used the blog to share her experiences with traditional and natural medicine during her cancer fight.

On 5/3/16 Mrs Dowd wrote on her blog: “Well after some careful consideration and looking at different clinics and hospitals we’ve made a decision. Will be going to the CMN Hospital on the Yuma, Arizona border*. For 28 days of treatments. It’s not a day clinic but a full hospital servicing over the past 30 years. There’s a special wing dedicated to alternative cancer care and the treatment list is impressive.  Many treatments that are not available in this country. We feel this would be the best course of care daily for 28 days and then at the end of the 4 weeks I intend my immune system to be back on-line. I will be doing a stem cell boost of my bone marrow the last week. I know of a women, Shannon Knight, from The Truth About Cancer documentary, who had stage 4 metastasized into locations of her bones and her lungs and she came out of there completely cured. Her oncologist said it was nothing short of a miracle, but she said no it was just clean hard work!  She said no it was just clean the hard, aggressive treatments that only attack cancer, boost and prime your immune system, become a whole, healthy being once again:) It is possible and I am planning on being one of the exceptions like Shannon!”

  • The hospital is across the US border in Mexico; it is run by medically qualified personnel.

The hospital [“CMN Hospital’s facility is only 14 blocks away once you cross the border to begin your alternative cancer treatment”] has a website where they tell a somewhat confusing story about their treatment plans; here is a short but telling excerpt:

CMN’s protocols are individualized and comprehensive. You will benefit from oxidative therapies, IV minerals selenium and bicarbonate IV vitamins such as vitamin B-17 and IV vitamin C. Far infrared and others including MAHT, Cold Laser Therapy, Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy and Ozone Therapy are a daily part of your protocol. Ultraviolet Blood Irradiation is effective in destroying pathogens in your blood and slows the growth of cancer cell growth. CMN’s Stem cell therapy and Dendritic cell therapy are just two of the advanced cancer treatments applied to patients.”

And here is what they say about three therapies as examples of treatments that have discussed before on this blog: vitamin C, Laetrile and Essiac.

IV Vitamin C If large amounts of vitamin C are presented to cancer cells, large amounts will be absorbed. In these unusually large concentrations, the antioxidant vitamin C will start behaving as a pro-oxidant as it interacts with intracellular copper and iron. This chemical interaction produces small amounts of hydrogen peroxide. Because cancer cells are relatively low in an intracellular anti-oxidant enzyme called catalase, the high dose vitamin C induction of peroxide will continue to build up until it eventually lyses the cancer cell from the inside out!

IV Vitamin B17 / Laetrile Also known as amygdaline, Vitamin B-17 is a molecule made up of four parts: -2 parts Glucose -1 part Benzaldahyde-1 part Hydrogen Cyanide. Laetrile is found in at least 1200 different plants, including apricots, peaches, apple seeds, lentils, cashews, brown rice, millet, and alfalfa. Commercial preparations of laetrile are obtained from the kernels of apricots, peaches and bitter almonds. The body requires an enzyme called beta-glucosidase in order to process laetrile and release the cyanide. Studies have shown that cancer cells contain more of this enzyme than normal cells, which allows for a higher release of cyanide at tumor sites. Another enzyme known as rhodanese is important in this process. Normal healthy cells contain rhodanese which protects them from the activated cyanide. Most cancer cells are deficient in this enzyme, leaving them vulnerable to the poison. Tumor destruction begins once the cyanide is released within the malignancies, meaning laetrile therapy is selectively toxic to cancer cells while remaining non-toxic to normal cells.

Essiac Tea / Order Original Essiac Tea Essiac, given its name by Rene Caisse (“caisse” spelt backwards), consists of four main herbs that grow in the wilderness of Ontario, Canada. The original formula is believed to have its roots from the native Canadian Ojibway Indians. The four main herbs that make up Essiac are Burdock Root, Slippery Elm Inner Bark, Sheep Sorrel and Indian Rhubarb Root. Essiac tea helps release toxins that build up in fat and tissues into the blood stream where they can be filtered and excreted by the liver and kidneys.  Cleaning the body of toxins and impurities frees up the immune system to focus on killing cancer cells and protecting the body.

 

I think I will abstain from further comments, firstly because I want to avoid getting sued by these people and secondly because it seems all too depressingly obvious.

70 Responses to ‘Alternative cancer cures’ cost money and lives

  • They still call laetrile “vitamin B17”? Wow. Even Krebs knew that was bullshit, he only called it a vitamin in order to exploit the “big herbs” loopholes in US law.

  • Quack, quack, quacks! Let them sue ME.

    While I have every sympathy for this woman and her family, I do wonder how anyone falls for this rubbish. Every one of those “treatments” can easily be debunked with a fairly casual google search–but you have to go ahead and read something that isn’t guaranteed to prop us your wishful thinking.

  • “Cleansing the body of toxins and impurities frees up the immune system….” is a dead giveaway to unscientific pseudo healt h care. Please do not confuse this rubbish with legitimate research-based cancer Immunotherapy being investigated at Duke University and other reputable institutions. There is no comparison. Generally, when the seller of a drug(herbs, vitamins, minerals especially) claims to treat a laundry list of complaints or ailments, it is usually useless. Likewise, when they use a laundry list of alleged treatments to treat a single condition, one should be suspicious. I have no specific information on the above protocol but……

  • I am a close friend of Rachel’s and I feel it is important to set her story straight.
    She spent two years following traditional protocol for treating her aggressive form of cancer. She was treated in Boston at Mass General Hospital and then during her second year, she found a cancer treatment facility in New Hampshire closer to her home. She put full faith in the standard medical practices of her doctors at both facilities , but in the end their treatments did not work for her. The doctors finally told her there was nothing else they could do, after the cancer spread throughout her body.
    Rachel wanted to make one last effort to cure herself and it wasn’t until then that she chose to go to an alternative cancer treatment hospital. If you do further research in the hospital she chose, they have many more cutting edge treatments from around the world then the simple three that you posted. She had long conversations with their head doctor and did extensive research about alternative treatments . She made her final decision after hearing from a friend who had the same aggressive form of cancer and who had been successfully treated through this hospital. She also spoke to others who have been cancer free after going through the treatments at this facility. It was well researched, but probably way too late.
    Rachel knew that her cancer was probably too far gone for any further treatments to work, but she desperately wanted to live for her three kids and was willing to try. Had she gone to this facility first instead of going the traditional route, we will never know if it it would’ve given her better results.

    Before you post such things online, I think it’s important to do more research. People die daily who have used standard medical cancer treatments, but nobody posts about these huge numbers. They only highlight those that try alternative treatments that aren’t successful. There are many more who are successfully treated by various alternative options . I think the future will include a mix both standard practices with some alternative treatments.

    • Unfortunate patients still die from cancers but thanks to modern medicine(not alternative) many, many more are surviving or living longer than 10-20 years ago. This is because proper science based clinical trials are done to verify the benefits, risks and results of various therapies. You cannot rely on hearsay or hypothetical case reports to trust such important decisions, especially when someone is selling unproven treatments that sound good based on anecdotal reports. The desperation is understood but offering fake therapies without informed consent as to the proven risks and benefits is unethical and just wrong. If the real facts based on real data are provided and a terminal cancer patient still wants to try it, then they can make that choice based on reality and not false hope.

    • No two cancers are completely alike. Besides it is always worth to check whether person telling that she/he has had such and such cancer has really had it, because it often turns out that it has been more indolent cancer or even benign tumour. Misdiagnoses happen, or patients tend to mix up terms, or they decide they have worst form of disease just because they are receiving the same drugs as another person with such disease and conclude that doctor has been hiding the truth…. And certainly one should never trust stories of the patients of alternative clinics. It is a common tactic of marketing to use people who have never had cancer, patients who have had conventional therapy and non-exitant patients.

    • I would love to have the name of this clinic.
      It is nice Rachel had a friend who supported her and is defending her decisions still
      Good on you!

    • Had she gone to this facility first instead of going the traditional route, we will never know if it it would’ve given her better results.

      Why do you think it might have given her better results? What makes you think these “alternative clinics” in Mexico are not just parasitic vultures praying on desperate people like your friend, trying to take their money for false hope with a witches brew of strange inventions, one more unbelievable than the next? If these “clinics” really had a succesful therapy, why are there so many different, using very varying approaches and different concoctions? Don’t you think that by now a few of them were enormously succesful, drawing thousands of patients from all over the world and written magnificent reports of all the thousands of happily cured patients? Please tell us why you believe these “clinics” still have to hide in Tijuana if they can cure where medicine cannot?

  • You are falling for the trickery of alternative pseudotreatments. Read Dr. Edzard’s series on “The tricks of the quackery trade.” They take credit for improvements that have nothing to do with their witch craft and cannot provide any evidence of well done scientific studies showing complications or improvements of what they charge for. For most they are taking advantage of desperate people. There are many anecdotes of alleged cures by a variety of treatments, many being pure nonsense, but the magic is convincing. You may say well, what do they have to loose but money. That is understandable but everyone deserves the right to receive honest informed consent of the benefits and risks and expectation of efficacy, based on evidence- based trials and not just word of mouth.

    • I remember Russians did a talk-show about woman “treating” cancer with tap water. They invited four or five former patients and paid for complete medical checkup. It turned out that neither of them had ever had cancer they had presumably been cured of, however one of the women had symptoms that were indicative of lymphoma. She was invited to do further exams but refused because of her belief in the tap water woman….

    • So actual proof of remission is not enough via scans, blood-work, and the patient presenting themselves to you is not proof enough for you? Because I went to CMN Hospital in MX in mid-2015, received all of their treatments, and I am cancer free right now, and I have scans and bloodwork to prove it (last PET done late last year). No peer-studies needed here, clearly. You are all seemingly walking a very thin legal-line with your slanderous accusations.

      • thank you

      • Mel said:

        So actual proof of remission is not enough via scans, blood-work, and the patient presenting themselves to you is not proof enough for you? Because I went to CMN Hospital in MX in mid-2015, received all of their treatments, and I am cancer free right now, and I have scans and bloodwork to prove it (last PET done late last year). No peer-studies needed here, clearly.

        Well, you say that but provide not a jot of evidence.

        You are all seemingly walking a very thin legal-line with your slanderous accusations.

        It’s clear you haven’t a clue what you’re talking about.

        • Are you asking me for my PET scan results? Who are you? Are you a licensed physician? Did you or any other person in this group review Mrs. Dowd’s medical records prior to, or after her going to Mexico? What truthful basis is there for this thread if her records had not been reviewed? Why would Mr. Ernst choose to post from a dead woman’s CHOICE, and defend it, even after a friend of her’s defended her choice? Did this makes Mrs. Dowd stupid? According to this post, it did.

          It’s clear that I DO know what I’m talking about..I’m that zero-in-a-million success story you claim is not out there. And that is a fact. Spin how you will, your power-trip is breaking down people sentences to one-up them. Superiority complex much, Sir?

          • Mel said:

            Are you asking me for my PET scan results?

            Goodness, no. Why on earth would I be the slightest bit interested in that and why would you think I would be?

            Who are you? Are you a licensed physician? Did you or any other person in this group review Mrs. Dowd’s medical records prior to, or after her going to Mexico? What truthful basis is there for this thread if her records had not been reviewed? Why would Mr. [sic] Ernst choose to post from a dead woman’s CHOICE, and defend it, even after a friend of her’s defended her choice? Did this makes Mrs. Dowd stupid? According to this post, it did.

            I’m someone who’s asking you if you have good evidence. So far, you’ve neither produced any, but more importantly, failed to understood what might constitute good evidence.

            It’s clear that I DO know what I’m talking about..I’m that zero-in-a-million success story you claim is not out there. And that is a fact. Spin how you will, your power-trip is breaking down people sentences to one-up them. Superiority complex much, Sir?

            Maybe it is clear to you… However, I took apart your ‘arguments’ (such as they were) to show them to be empty. What you have failed to do is provide a jot of good evidence for, well, anything.

          • Mel,I would very much like to speak with you in regards to your cancer treatment my email is candyrchampion@gmail.com.

            In regards to Ms.Dowdy had she not listen to advice from her doctors and seeker alternative treatment first she may still be alive. They jump to blame alternative treatments but neglected to state that the surgery and chemo rendered her immune system helpless to fight the cancer.

        • Are you asking me for my PET scan results? Who are you? Are you a licensed physician? Did you or any other person in this group review Mrs. Dowd’s medical records prior to, or after her going to Mexico? What truthful basis is there for this thread if her records had not been reviewed? Why would Mr. Ernst choose to post from a dead woman’s CHOICE, and defend it, even after a friend of her’s defended her choice? Did this makes Mrs. Dowd stupid? According to this post, it did.

          It’s clear that I DO know what I’m talking about..I’m that zero-in-a-million success story you claim is not out there. And that is a fact. Spin how you will, your power-trip is breaking down people sentences to one-up them. Superiority complex much, Sir?

  • I was diagnosed with adenocarcinoma in May 2016, I went to CTCA where I was told my only option is surgery to remove 1/3 of my colon and surrounding lymph nodes and chemo. There was another lady staying at my hotel who has the same cancer same stage, had the same recommended protocol and went for her 1 year check up, it had came back and metastasized went to her liver and she had a blood clot in her lung from the previous chemo treatment. CTCA gave me their statistics for my type cancer as well as ACS statistics of which their 5 yr survival rate was 5% and ACS was 3%.Correct me if I am wrong but that told me I have a 95%-97% chance of dying within 5 years! I didn’t like those odds so I did a lot of research and chose not to have it, I chose alternative treatment and started mid June and my cancer had been dropping (CEA 3.4) and I had a problem with my port and got one treatment in 4 weeks (CEA 7.1) Our wonderful government will not allow treatment without clinical trials and drug companies can’t patent natural items so there is no money in it for them. Go look at research outside of USA, Germany or Switzerland they work.

    • Good luck Candy. Could you share the “alternative treatment” you are receiving so we can investigate and research the specifics of this alleged cancer treatment. Our government and any responsible physician expects evidence of effectiveness and safety before experimenting on anyone for profit. I do understand your desperation and wish you success, but there are many greedy and underhanded “clinics” that prey on patients with false hopes and clever marketing. Hopefully that is not the case for you.

      • I’m sorry Dr.Cox you may not want to hear this but the real truth is there are many “greedy and underhanded ” Medical Doctor’s, research Facilities and most especially pharmaceutical companies. Clinical trials are not done on natural products because they cannot be patented therefore there is no money in it for the pharmaceutical companies.

        As far as my treatment the number one thing is that I changed my diet, cutting out white flour, rice,pasta,sugar, all processed foods and gmo foods including meats feed unnatural diets steroids and such. Secondly, I am going to the root of the problem and trying to rebuild my immune system which fights the cancer (In case you don’t know, cancer is inside everyone it only becomes a problem when the immune system has be comprised, vitamin D levels or oxygen levels drop. Which the cancer levels in my blood have dropped.

        • Those are for the most part excellent recommendations Candy and make common sense for everyone with or without cancer. Most physicians offer similar advice and like any profession there are bad apples. Science based health care(with compassion) serves society and individual patients best with proven treatments when possible. Unfortunately modern therapies cannot cure everyone, but have come a long way(even though too expensive, especially with greedy pharmaceutical and device companies,insurance companies, health business administrators and some docs). There are many more “greedy and underhanded” alternative-to-real-medicine con artists than physicians, and all should be avoided, including any irresponsible doctors.

        • I’m sorry Dr.Cox you may not want to hear this but the real truth is there are many “greedy and underhanded ” Medical Doctor’s, research Facilities and most especially pharmaceutical companies.

          True, but irrelevant.

          Clinical trials are not done on natural products because they cannot be patented therefore there is no money in it for the pharmaceutical companies.

          A classic piece of special pleading put about by the quackery industry, but demonstrably false. A large amount of medical research is funded by charities and governments, and not only is there no remotely plausible reason why this would arbitrarily exclude so-called “natural cures”, there is solid evidence that it does include them. See for example research into cannabinoids for cancer patients.

          The problem for “natural cures” is not that they are not tested, but that when they are tested, and found not to work, their promoters refuse to accept it. Hence the existence of clinics in Mexico offering refuted therapies such as Hoxsey, Gerson and laetrile.

          Cancer, as anybody who is not trying to sell you bullshit will acknowledge, is not a single disease, it is a class of diseases. The reality-based medical community is very wary of using the word “cure” in respect of cancer. It can often be effectively treated, and in many cases patients may be in remission for decades and eventually die of something else entirely, but we do not understand the disease well enough yet to say that even someone who has no signs of disease twenty years after treatment is “cured”, only that they are cancer-free.

          Of course, quacks ruthlessly exploit the careful honesty of science by trading “guaranteed cure” against outcomes couched in terms of a percentage chances of long term survival.

          When you look into the claimed “natural cure” cases, you find that patients always fall into one of three classes:

          1. They never had proven cancer in the first place (e.g. Belle Gibson). Often they are diagnosed and then “miracle cured” by the same quack.

          2. They had cancer and received reality-based therapy prior to quackery, and the outcome is consistent with the reality-based therapy (e.g. Jessica Ainscough).

          3. They had cancer, and still have, or have since died of, cancer (e.g. Kim Tinkham).

          Cancer is terrifying and there are no simple answers. The claims of cancer quacks are purest evil, cynically exploiting the vulnerable. That’s why it is illegal in the UK to claim to treat or cure cancer.

          As far as my treatment the number one thing is that I changed my diet, cutting out white flour, rice,pasta,sugar, all processed foods and gmo foods including meats feed unnatural diets steroids and such. Secondly, I am going to the root of the problem and trying to rebuild my immune system which fights the cancer (In case you don’t know, cancer is inside everyone it only becomes a problem when the immune system has be comprised, vitamin D levels or oxygen levels drop. Which the cancer levels in my blood have dropped.

          A grab bag of this week’s bêtes noires of quacks. To pick a couple at random: GMOs do not cause cancer, cutting them out of your diet makes absolutely no provable difference, the proteins in GMOs are biologically indistinguishable from those in other foods. In several decades of assiduous pseudoscience only one paper I’m aware of has ever managed to find even a glimmer of a link between GMOs and cancer, and this turned out to be fraudulent and was retracted. Ironically, given the hysteria over Big Pharma funding, virtually all research purporting to show harm from GMOs is funded by the immensely profitable organic food industry. Independent studies consistently find no risk.

          White flour also is a completely arbitrary choice. Some quacks latch onto it because it is white, and they think cancer cells are also white (genuinely, it’s that level of magical thinking). Biologically, there is no discernible difference between white and wholemeal flours, wholemeal contains the same proteins but with more fibre.

          You say you are trying to rebuild your immune system. Which part? And how will you stop it from attacking your body? As someone with an autoimmune disorder I find it amusing that some people think boosting their immune system might be a good idea. It’s also funny that they think they can. We have no idea how to regulate the immune system for the most part.

          “Cancer is inside everyone” is a meaningless phrase, as is “it only becomes a problem when the immune system has be comprised, vitamin D levels or oxygen levels drop”. Have you been subjected to the hyperbaric oxygen or H2O2 shills? Blood oxygen saturation is typically 96%-99% at sea level, and I am not aware of any credible evidence that cancer is caused by a drop in blood oxygen or vitamin D levels. Contrary tot he claims of quacks, nobody really knows why cells sometimes start reproducing out of control. There are well known triggers that substantially increase risk (e.g. smoking) but as far as anyone can tell right now it is, in the end, largely down to a combination of genetics and chance, and nobody actually knows in what proportion.

          And that’s the difference between quacks and medical scientists. Quacks give you confident assertions, medical science is not afraid to admit lack of knowledge.

          At the present stage of development anybody who promises you a cure, or confidently asserts specific factors as a cause (rather than a contributory factor) can be assumed to be a charlatan until proven otherwise.

    • Candy Champion said:

      drug companies can’t patent natural items

      Oops!

    • From what you say, your chances of surviving five years with the best treatment medical science can provide, is, tragically, very low.

      Your chances of surviving five years without any treatment at all, are substantially lower.

      Your chances of surviving five years with “natural cures” are identical to your chances of surviving five years without any treatment, because any “natural cure” that provably worked would already be part of mainstream medical practice.

      The quacks actually know this, but they want your money.

      I know what you’re going to say: natural cures are suppressed by the medical-industrial complex. Bullshit. Doctors and their families get cancer too, there’s no way they would suppress a cure in the way quacks claim, and the conspiracy of silence would have to involve, at a conservative estimate, many hundreds of thousands of people including nurses, doctors, researchers, charity workers and government regulators from countries as politically diverse as Cuba and the United States. It would be probably the largest conspiracy in history, and not one person has ever spilled the beans.

      Here’s a thing. People who get cancer and take alternative remedies, will either die or they won’t. The ones who don’t die, always credit their perspicacity in spending large sums on alternative remedies (because otherwise they would have wasted all that money, and cognitive dissonance is a s bitch). They never credit any reality-based therapy they had, it’s always the product they bought, the “research” they did.

      And the ones who die? We never hear from them.

      So, you’re thinking of buying a lottery ticket and you want to know if you’re likely to win. Statistically, the odds are very firmly against you. Every dollar you spend, you’ll get maybe 50c back. But if you base your “research” purely on googling the stories of winners, you’ll get a rather different picture.

      There’s never been any shortage of people who promise to beat the statistical odds in all walks of life. Sadly, the fates tend to ignore them.

      • IN the 1960’S Rockefeller donated huge some of money to medical college’s and got his goons appointed to the boards of those schools, they changed what was taught to symptoms suppression through pharmaceutical prescribed synthetic medicine. They are not taught nutrition or cure anything. So doctors and nurses do not know how to cure anything.

        I am going to give a good example from my own experience. In March I was diagnosed with diabetes and stroke level a1c and triglycerides. I was prescribed metformin and phenylfibrates.I was not given any diet to follow, just pills and told to come back in 3 weeks. I got them filled and read the paper the pharmacy included in my bag. I got as far as the part where it says do not take this if you have any liver problems it could cause liver damage. I didn’t take them and started looking for options. Changed my diet and went back in 3 weeks, the nurse Practician told me I couldn’t do it without taking those meds she was very openly angry with me when my reply was I’m going to give it 2 months and see. In May when I was told I had cancer I was also told I was prediabetic and trigliserides were down, in June I was below normal a1c and normal triglycerides. So I did what I was told could not be done and I fully intend to do it again! With all your nah saying none of you picked up on the FACT: when I started my CEA was 5.7 it has already came down to 3.4 when I was getting alternative treatment, when my port messed up and I only got 1 treatment in 4 weeks CEA went to 7.1. What that tells me is the treatment works. So I am going to continue and I am going to live aS best I can as long as I can. All yall nah sayers continue in your lala garbage.

        • Before there was pharmaceutical companies there was God, and he made our cures for us. More and more people are getting fed up with all the garbage and corruption and awakening to the gmo and processed foods were fed. Before long doctors and pharma we have now will be a thing of the past.

          • And your God made the viruses, bacteria and fungi that kill millions?

          • Yes Alan God did create some virus,bacteria, fungi, cancer, rats, cockroachs, buzzards, and various other things that I don’t find so appealing but in his all knowing wisdom he knew we needed scavengers to clean up our waste, cancer is designed to aid defense in our bodies not kill us, don’t believe that ask any doctor. Also, while your at it go ahead and ask them what our bodies are designed to eat, can our bodies thrive on GMO foods? So before you spout off and blame God maybe you should take a look in the mirror and see if minds like yours could possibly be the problem.

          • Why did your god give you cancer in the first place? He could have cut out the middleman and saved you a lot of misery. Is it all part of a large test? If “he made our cures for us”, it seems more like a scavenger hunt to me. “I’ve given you a deadly disease BUT I’ve hidden the cure somewhere. If you find it, you live.”

            (Actually, it sounds more like the plots of all the Saw movies.)

            Your god also provided doctors, hospitals, medical knowledge and modern science. Why do you turn your back on those?

            And to those of us who don’t believe in any gods, we don’t deserve to live?

          • Candy Champion said:

            Yes Alan God did create some virus,bacteria, fungi, cancer, rats, cockroachs, buzzards, and various other things that I don’t find so appealing but in his all knowing wisdom he knew we needed scavengers to clean up our waste, cancer is designed to aid defense in our bodies not kill us, don’t believe that ask any doctor.

            This is a nice – and, I suspect, pointless – diversion, isn’t it, that raises far more questions that it answers.

            Also, while your at it go ahead and ask them what our bodies are designed to eat, can our bodies thrive on GMO foods?

            You do beg the question, of course, but it seems our bodies can and do thrive on GMOs given we all consume all sorts of them and many throughout the world do seem to be thriving. But since you seem to believe we aren’t, please feel free to provide your evidence.

            So before you spout off and blame God maybe you should take a look in the mirror and see if minds like yours could possibly be the problem.

            My mind doesn’t seem to be the problem here: you have made all sorts of claims about your god, presumably based on how you view the world. I will change my mind presented with good evidence (which has so far been lacking); what will it take to change your mind? Once we have that answer, we can make a judgement about where the problem lies.

          • Nothing is changing my mind, because I have seen the evidence. I have read hundreds of research studies and clinical trials. You want proof look at the health of our country 25 years ago and look at today. It was 1 in 10 had cancer now it’s 1 in 2. Obesity especially children, diabetes threw the roof….need I keep going?

            About my belief in God…He is real he loves you, whether or not you believe in him. Because he loves you I choose to try to be nice, If you choose to disagree with me that’s fine your choice, but what I believe is my choice as well. I am not changing my mind.

            I would only suggest you do your own research find your answers. A good place to start would be https://www.journals.elsevier.com/journal-of-herbal-medicine/ and Holy Bible.

            Have a blessed day!

          • Candy Champion said:

            Nothing is changing my mind

            Who is it who has the closed mind? I’m reminded of the quote usually attributed (probably wrongly) to John Maynard Keynes: “When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do?”

            I have read hundreds of research studies and clinical trials.

            Please feel free to cite what you believe to be the most compelling.

            You want proof look at the health of our country 25 years ago and look at today. It was 1 in 10 had cancer now it’s 1 in 2. Obesity especially children, diabetes threw the roof….need I keep going?

            Ponder for a moment on the possible reasons for that… then explain the ever-rising life expectancy. Your answer to that could be quite illuminating.

            About my belief in God…He is real he loves you, whether or not you believe in him. Because he loves you I choose to try to be nice, If you choose to disagree with me that’s fine your choice, but what I believe is my choice as well. I am not changing my mind.

            Blind faith, anyone?

            I would only suggest you do your own research find your answers.

            You made the claims; you provide your evidence. That’s the way it works.

            A good place to start would be https://www.journals.elsevier.com/journal-of-herbal-medicine/

            Which particular article do you think is particularly compelling?

            and Holy Bible.

            I don’t recall ever seeing any reliable medical advice in it… and certainly not about how to cure cancer. But then again, religionists are frequently very adept at contortions.

          • You asked for evidence, I gave you a place to start. It is not up to me to do your work for you I already did that for myself. If the evidence should change then yes my mind may change but based on the evidence I have its not.

            Everyone is going to die! it may sooner or later but it is inevitable. I want to live the best quality life I can with what time I have whether that’s 1 hour or 20 years. You see it your way I see it differently, let’s just agree to disagree. That being said I would ask you one question. If you had a child with cancer ( I really hope that never happens ) could you stand by watching them suffer horribly for a 3% chance of living 5 years or would you seek less suffering and 85% chance of living 5 years?

            Doctors did try all kinds of fear involving tactics with me, didn’t work on me but it does on alot of innocent people. I think that is very sad. When an oncologist denies his own statistics his hospital put in black and white, you show him and he still denies it, now that is what I call a liar. I want no part of that type treatments or so called medicine.

          • “It is not up to me to do your work for you I already did that for myself”
            I FEAR THIS IS WRONG: IF YOU MAKE A CLAIM, IT IS UP TO YOU TO PRODUCE THE EVIDENCE.
            sad to hear that your oncologist was a ‘liar’ – I know many who are completely honest. in fact, I have never met a dishonest one.

          • So still no answer why your god gave you cancer in the first place?

            Funny, I’ve asked this question for years on science bogs of religious people who claimed their god cured their cancer or praying to Jesus healed them or their god provides everything the body needs to cure cancer.

            So why bother giving you cancer in the first place? If your god controls everything, your getting cancer was his/her’s doing, n’est ce pas?

            I’m not holding my breath waiting for an answer, but I find it revealing there’s a consistent pattern of refusal to answer my honest and sincere question.

          • the answer I usually get is: god wanted to test me.

          • You want an answer here it is. Cancer is present in everyone’s body. When our bodies immune system can’t remove toxins (that we or our environment puts there, not God)its a kind of quarantine to isolate those damaged cells.If we fix the problem the immune system can remove it. We cannot fix the problem by killing the immune system.

          • I am so glad you did not become an oncologist.

          • “the answer I usually get is: god wanted to test me.” Ah, but which god? Maybe the cancer is caused by one of the Hindu gods, and Candy’s belief in the Christian god is needed to overcome those effects. Or vice versa.

            Or perhaps Candy would be better served by belief in Oludumaré or one of the other orixas in which followers of Candomblé place their faith. For all we know, Candomblé may well beat Christianity for speed of cancer cure: the experiment has never been done.

          • to be on the safe side, pray to all of them – there are only ~ 400!

          • ~400?! You must have led a sheltered life. Many thousands at a rough estimate.

          • Candy Champion said:

            You asked for evidence, I gave you a place to start. It is not up to me to do your work for you I already did that for myself. If the evidence should change then yes my mind may change but based on the evidence I have its not.

            You’ve been making the claims; you provide the evidence for them. I have no work to do here.

            Everyone is going to die! it may sooner or later but it is inevitable.

            Well, you’re getting closer to answering the question I asked, but still no cigar.

            I want to live the best quality life I can with what time I have whether that’s 1 hour or 20 years. You see it your way I see it differently, let’s just agree to disagree. That being said I would ask you one question. If you had a child with cancer ( I really hope that never happens ) could you stand by watching them suffer horribly for a 3% chance of living 5 years or would you seek less suffering and 85% chance of living 5 years?

            False dichotomy. You never said precisely what your cancer was or at what stage it was detected nor what treatment you undertook. That is for you, but what do you think the survival rate for all cancers is? You also haven’t said what it is that might give this reduced suffering nor where this 85% 5-year survival comes from. Until then, your question cannot be answered.

            Doctors did try all kinds of fear involving tactics with me, didn’t work on me but it does on a lot of innocent people. I think that is very sad. When an oncologist denies his own statistics his hospital put in black and white, you show him and he still denies it, now that is what I call a liar. I want no part of that type treatments or so called med

            Yet again, hyperbole, hand-waving and waffle. Provide the evidence. If you don’t understand what constitutes good evidence or the need for it, try reading more on this blog. If you are still unable to comprehend, I cannot help you any further.

        • Candy Champion said:

          IN the 1960’S Rockefeller donated huge some of money to medical college’s and got his goons appointed to the boards of those schools, they changed what was taught to symptoms suppression through pharmaceutical prescribed synthetic medicine.

          Even if that was true, what is being taught now? Please provide evidence.

          They are not taught nutrition or cure anything. So doctors and nurses do not know how to cure anything.

          Wrong.

          I am going to give a good example from my own experience.

          Wrong.

          What that tells me is the treatment works.

          Unfortunately (for you) many here have far higher standards.

          So I am going to continue and I am going to live aS best I can as long as I can. All yall nah sayers continue in your lala garbage.

          Some are persuaded by personal experience; some know the many pitfalls and dangers of doing that. If you ever have any good evidence to present – rather than unverified and unverifiable anecdotes – please do come back.

      • Guy, your comments are refreshing, honest, factual and based on true reality. As a retired physician and cancer patient myself it is frustrating to see how so many patients, desperate or not, become duped by con artists usually in an alternative-to-real-medicine discipline(if it can even be called that) or pseudo-health-care quacks. All we can do is try to counter the misinformation, which is more difficult when they have had inadequate experiences with other responsible or allegedly irresponsible doctors.

  • BTW I’ll be back with my own personal proof. Bet you boys try to find a way around even that.

  • Dr. Ernst,

    …the answer I usually get is: god wanted to test me.

    Sounds iike a pretty cruel, sadistic god they’ve got there.

    I find the juxtaposition of these two statements from Candy both revealing and perplexing:

    It was 1 in 10 had cancer now it’s 1 in 2. Obesity especially children, diabetes threw (sic) the roof …

    She then claims:

    God…He is real he loves you, whether or not you believe in him. Because he loves you …

    A fairly sick way to show his “love” by giving one in every two people (I doubt that statistic is true, but anyway) cancer and creating so much juvenile obesity and diabetes.

  • … toxins (that we or our environment puts there, not God)

    So her god created everything except the stuff he didn’t create.

    My bottom line question remains: if your god has control over everything in this universe and presumably beyond, why did he allow or cause you to get cancer in the first place if he loves you so much? Your “answer” did not address this fundamental question.

    • There is no rational answer to the questions posed by theodicy. That’s why so many people sell books of arm-waving explanations of it.

    • God did not create junk food man did that. when I say junk food I mean processed cardboard chicken nuggets, bleach refined flour etc. God didn’t create nuclear plants, toxic waste, etc man did that. Man had manipulated viruses genes, cross breeding I could go on and on. You cannot blame God for what man does!

      You guys can mock me all you want, it only goes to prove how ignorant you are. I answered your question twice, your comeback is to bash God and mock me, no matter you remind me of Hillary and Obama.

      I am so glad I didn’t become an oncologist too, although I am considering becoming a doctor, one that actually helps to heal people! Oh and if I do, I’ll do it for free so as not to allow you guys to accuse me of swindling people.

      If you read the Bible you would realize God gave man free will, we can choose him or not, we could use earth wisely or abuse it.

      You guys think your so smart, but you are only deluding yourself living in your tiny little box. I think and live totally opposite and I am so thankful. You just have no idea how matrixly negative you are.

      I thank God and I am grateful for all I have and even what I don’t. I don’t have the hatred you have. I am not pompous and your mocking only makes me laugh.

      Have a good day

      • “man did that” over and over, as if it’s something bad. And who, according to you, created man? Do you really never think about what you believe??

      • Candy

        The way you gain respect here is to provide evidence to back up the claims you make.

        Despite many requests, you have failed to do so.

        There would appear to be several explanations for this, the most parsimonious of which are that you are either unable to provide it or unwilling to provide it.

        Whichever it is, continuing to try to put your argument (such as it is) without it will get you nowhere.

        • This has been a sad but poignant demonstration of why so many are conned by alternative health care and fraudulent orange haired politicians. Truth, honesty and fact checking obviously do not work. They say in the South “you can’t cure stupid.”

  • So I am curious….for those that do / did not believe in “alternative” treatment for cancer, how was your cancer cured? And aside from traditional treatments (i.e., chemo, radiation, oral chemo, etc)…what did you do to help your body become cancer free?

  • My my “Mr. Henness”. For one who proposes free-will and peaceful thinking (and even quotes Pacifists), you certainly cannot walk the walk, altho you’re so confident of your talk! What a hypocrite. If you were true to what you proclaim, you would support fellow human’s right to choose treatment, regardless of what it is for. Your complex is, you think you’re smarter than those choosing…that others cannot make informed decisions. You are the police of CAM! You selectively avoid answering specific questions, and enjoy belittling others who defend their decisions. It’s your right to live without religion, good for you. We won’t even go into the types of “medicine”/remedies ancestors used prior to conventional medicine. Amazing the human race even survived, according to your proclamations. Let’s take this to a different level, just to keep things in perspective. Here’s a question you may look for a way around: You have a wife, she’s got stage 4 breast cancer, already had a bi-lat mastectomy, 3rd recurrence, did chemo/radiation/oral chemo and nothing has worked. She begs you to let her try something else, something safer, something “natural”. You have kids, ages 3 and 7. She wants to live, but has been told she has 3 months to live. What do you tell her?

    • My, my “Mel”. It seems you’ve not understood a single thing that’s been said to you or anything else on this blog.

      • My understanding, Mr. Henness, is crystal clear…as is the fact that you refuse to address a hypothetical question where the answer you gave might muddy-up your self-serving”facts”. Maybe you’re just not married and cannot comprehend the question. Maybe the question was beneath you? Either way, I’m confident some other readers were awaiting at least some sort of response. Cancer is a very personal thing. Maybe next time you start insulting people, you should live with Cancer for a few years. It might change your perspective.

        • Mel

          Please just try to provide some good evidence. So far you have not.

        • Mel, you seem to be fixated on blind faith no matter what the diagnosis or prognosis. After reviewing the best available options, risks and chance of benefits I selected radical prostatectomy and as expected still have an excellent prognosis because my cancer was detected at an early stage. Appropriate medical advice differs based on the cancer and stage with or without metastasis. Surgery is not indicated for advanced prostate cancer because the risks have been proven to out way the benefits. However, other studied therapies are helpful, depending on the individual status of the patient and degree of metastasis. In most cases unproven therapies(which includes most if not all alternative choices) are ineffective inspite of anecdotal or artificial successes claimed by some, especially by those that profit from them. Anyone has the right and choice to try unproven or unreasonable treatments but SHOULD be informed of the risks, the costs and possible or improbable benefits that are claimed. I think the comments you object to are based on science based medicine and attempts to discourage the spread of FALSE HOPE which is predatory and unethical. Complications and failures occur in medicine but our chances of success are much better with a well trained and experienced physician/surgeon than an inadequately trained alternative provider with unproven or fake modalities, or a greedy and incompetent doctor with any degree. Yes, as a Family Physician , I obtained 2 seperate opinions from Board Certified Urologists from 2 different teaching hospitals(actually both hospitals use team approaches with 3 different MD’s discussing their specialty options–Urological Surgery, Medical Oncology and Radiation Oncology.) I chose surgery, realizing all the risks for each option, including no treatment at first but rather Active Surveillance. Believe it or not, some patients are treated by quacks and did not even have cancer.

          • Thank you Mr. Cox, for your logical explanation on where you stand on this entire thread. And I agree with you that there are attempts from Naturopaths and clinical physicians / workers to spread “false hope”. My issue with this thread is that the HOSPITAL that I chose to go to was thrown under the bus by Mr. Ernst, without anyone here actually visiting the hospital and interviewing the Specialists that work there. This is a highly respected hospital that saves lives, and serves the entire community. It even has a nursery where it delivers babies, treats patients in its emergency room, has an OR and ICU as well. The doctor thoroughly explained to me that there is no promise when treatment cancer, and gave me literature of the treatments it uses to treat cancer. It leaves the choices up to the patients. It doesn’t spread false hope. I had the chance to research each and every therapy I was given, pros and cons. I started with an Oncologist here in the states and researched all options here too. There are NO promises given with chemo/ radiation / surgery in the states as well. What irks me is finding a thread that attempts to damage the reputation of a hospital / doctors just because a patient that went there did not make it. And no medical records of that patient were reviewed prior to this thread being put up. Therefore, this is an UNinformed thread being supported by speculation…and solely because some therapies are used that you all deem voodoo or snake oil. CMN Hospital has no quacks and does not deserve to be implicated as such. EVERY place, in the U.S., Mexico, or Istanbul that treats cancer patient sees death. Right? Thank you for your response.

        • This has been documented and explains their “miraculous ” recoveries. It is easy to “cure” a nonexistent cancer with just about any magic. As expected these so called successes are touted by the alleged but appreciative patient or “mark” as wonderful healing experiences. And the con goes on. Do you believe in magic?(which is the title to a wonderful book by Dr. Paul Offit which explains with numerous factual references the many facets of medical fraud and misunderstanding.

          • And the beat goes on! Your response leads me to ask you….how did the human race survive disease prior to western medicine and University peer-studied modalities and chemicals? Things from the earth, maybe?

          • Mel,

            Modern medicine has clearly shown that teenage pregnancies pose a health risk to both the mother and the child.

            The human race managed to survive without modern medicine, not because of “Things from the earth” that prolonged life, but simply because enough members of our species — our ancestors — managed to live just long enough to become sexually reproductive then raise their children for at least a few years.

            Modern medicine has managed to extend, and to protect, human life to such an extent that it has become illegal in many regions of the world to engage in sexual activity until several years after the boys and girls become both very keen to engage in this activity and functionally able to procreate.

  • Mel and Candy, I would urge you to read the emperor of all maladies.
    It is a great book the documents the history or cancer and cancer medicine including many of the one mentioned in this thread.
    If after reading and knowing a little more about how cancer works and how treatments come about you still feel the choice you are making is informed then great at least you will know as much as you can.

  • http://www.cbc.ca/natureofthings/episodes/cracking-cancer

    This is a very interesting article – they talk about curing cancer using a treatment for diabetes….

    • Hi Brenda,

      When you visit any website, including the one you link to above, how do you determine if what the website tells you is right or real?

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