Some people are their worst enemies, and it seems as though chiropractors are no strangers to this strange phenomenon.
On this blog, I frequently criticise chiropractic; my main concerns are that
- chiropractors make far too many bogus claims far too often,
- there is precious little evidence that their hallmark treatment, spinal manipulation, generates more good than harm.
I repeatedly voice those concerns because I feel strongly that consumers have the right to unbiased information for making evidence-based therapeutic decisions. When I do this, I get invariably attacked by some chiropractors who disagree with me. Frequently, these chiropractors are not interested to discuss the issues I raised with me; instead they insult me in the most primitive way imaginable.
This happens far too often to write about each time, but occasionally things are so extraordinary that I do blog about them. A case in point is the email I recently received out of the blue from “Dr” Brian Moravec, a chiropractor who believes in subluxation and claims that new-born babies should have spinal adjustments. My last post quotes his astonishing views in full; he believes I am a self proclaimed “expert” on alternative medicine, promoting so much misinformation with regard to chiropractic care. Unfortunately he failed to tell me which of my statements he considers to be misleading and he continued: fortunately you look old. and soon will be gone.
Rejoicing at the (hopefully not so) imminent demise of a fellow human being is perhaps not what one might expect from a health care professional. Yet it does fit into the behaviour of chiropractors which tends to turn outright self-destructive when challenged. The comments by chiropractors that followed my post seem to confirm this tendency. They show that the demolition of chiropractic’s reputation by chiropractors is relentless.
One chiropractor claimed Moravec’s opinion could “have been better put”… and “come over as a somewhat personal attack” while quickly changing the subject by starting a discussion on the evidence-base of chiropractic. This ended abruptly in him agreeing with me to disagree. Other chiropractors seemed to concur.
At that stage, one chiropractor noted that Moeavec’s email is doing no favours to the reputation of chiropractic, a ray of light which quickly was instantly overshadowed by a further chiropractor’s comments. This man – or perhaps woman (hiding behind a pseudonym) – is a regular commentator on my blog. He felt that Moravec’s comments were rather polite an opinion which he justified as follows: Dr. Moravec thinks you are old because of your unflattering (IMO) photo. The shiny, bald look adds years to a person’s looks, especially in photos. It is the old glass half-empty or half-full debate. IOW, have you lost hair or have you gained face? The mustache is so fifties, too. The perpetual scowl, however, does suit you rather well. Just sayin’.
At this point, I cannot help but laugh out loud. Someone asked how I can bear those vicious attacks. The answer is that I merely cringe at the stupidity on display. Are these guys really so limited as to not realise what they are doing to their own reputation? Do they not notice that this amounts to a relentless and general demolition of chiropractic’s reputation?
All of this would, of course, be rather trivial fun, if it were a single occurrence – but it is most definitely not!
As I already pointed out, such things happen to me all the time. More remarkably, chiropractors have repeatedly tried to get me fired. Much more importantly, chiropractors have behaved in this way when they decided to sue Simon Singh for libel. Each time, they ended up with plenty of egg on their faces.
Isn’t it time that they learn a lesson? Isn’t it time that they learn to consider criticism seriously? Isn’t it time the more rational one amongst them do something about the many cranks in their midst? Isn’t it time they got their act together?
37 Responses to The relentless demolition of chiropractic’s reputation by chiropractors
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Why does a person who does not even have the guts to identify themselves, let alone post us a picture of their (presumably youthful and beautiful) physog, and ends with that matchless “Just sayin'” excuse for irrelevant, superficial, personal insults, with (as usual) no solid evidence-based arguments, think that their opinion is going to be judged as worth attention? He/She/It sounds like a petulant twelve-year-old, not someone who inspires confidence on any medical matter.
not a 12 year old, but a very dim 12 year old, I’d say.
Edzard, the answer to your final questions in this post is:
“Because if they did they would not be chiropractors.”
Chiropractors answer you as they do because that is what chiropractors do, that is their raison d’etre.
DD Palmer knew what chiropractic was – “A different system to medicine.”
Not much more to say. Time has passed them by. Sigh.
In reply to EE:
“Isn’t it time that they learn to consider criticism seriously?”
Absolutely and embrace the critics both within and without the profession. They are essential for progress!
“Isn’t it time the more rational one amongst them do something about the many cranks in their midst?”
Totally agree and it is happening as we speak. The critics will say that the change is too slow and I would have to agree as I would prefer it to have occured yesterday, but it is happening and it is gathering momentum, which is encouraging!
“Isn’t it time they got their act together?”
Again I agree, the solution must come from within the profession. This is happening with associations like COCA and institutions like Murdock Uni, Macquarie Uni and RMIT here in Australia. This is happening in other countries like Canada, Denmark, Switzerland and even the UK.
I would rather have a reasoned and well thought out exchange with a critic where articles and evidence is passed back and forward, rather than Ad Hominem attacks and straw man arguments.
Subluxation based chiropractors want to maintain business as usual. That is stagnation! I prefer progress.
Well, since it seems that I have been referenced in one of EE’s “blog”, I guess I’ll chime in. Thank you all for your kind words.
I consider it an honor for EE to direct some of his misdirected flatulence towards me and place it so prominently in his “blog”. So, thank you Perfesser, it is always a pleasure to bandy about with you in a war of words. I know that I have always brightened your sedentary days with a good laugh or two now and then. I thought that I was rather civil in my post. I wished you a long and healthy life, didn’t I? Why can all the other posters use the foulest epithets and not get singled out? I have always been a gentleperson and posted politely, IMO.
But I think that this time, your entry fails the smell test, so I am going to be frank with your readers. There is certainly something rotten in Denmark. I am sure that it is your blog-tutor, namely Blue Wode, whose skin it is that I have gotten under and is now all a Twitter. Likely a flurry of behind-the-scenes emails by him to you suggesting that you give me a good public digital rap on the knuckles, or better yet, on the head. All of his entries have that grim, jack-boot, goose-stepping, long ago lost, lack of joy to them. Unlike your contributions that are filled with pleasure and enjoyment, in a pompous sort of way, and are delightful to read. I am certain that his dream is to shut me up once and for all so he can continue to focus his quest to create a world free of chiropractic health care and all drug-free approaches to health care. He would much rather easily deal with the less-distracting submissive, fawning posts like that of Thinkin’ Chiro. I think that I liven up this dreary lair, if I do say so myself!
So there you have it. My views. My hazmat suit is on and I am ready for the predictable projectile hate notes from your loyal cabal. If you don’t allow this post, I understand. Just consider it our little assignation.
sorry, but you are wrong again – and fast getting more paranoid and silly.
I had a recent exchange with a chiropractic marketing and subluxation expert on Twitter recently, where after being questioned by Blue Wode, bragged about the negative publicity he was generating for our profession. I asked “Any attention is good attention” and he replied “Yes”!
In reply to SkepdocProf:
“fawning posts like that of Thinkin’ Chiro”
Have you bothered to read my posts? I recently hammered to critics with references to 74 articles and they all went mute! Perhaps they are so used to Ad Hominem attacks from chiropractic true believers that they didn’t know how to respond. If you want credibility then start reading your journals and assembling evidence!
P.S. Searching PubMed for “Subluxation” as used by minority chiropractors may be challenging!
@ Thinking_Chiro
I think readers will be interested to read for themselves what that attention-seeking chiropractic guru has to say:
He’s on Twitter here
https://twitter.com/LiamSchubel
On Facebook here
https://www.facebook.com/Dr.LiamSchubel
And here’s his idea for CWD (Chiropractic World Domination)
“Every man, woman and child on the planet checked for vertebral subluxation and adjusted when necessary from birth.”
http://www.schubelvisionworldwide.com/our_vision.html
And this is what is meant by his references to the ‘TIC’ and ‘TORs’
“Too often (chiroprac)’TORS take credit that isn’t theirs that they do not deserve. The credit belongs to God and His work IN you (chiropracTIC).”
http://avonchiropractor.com/2012/09/24/the-tic-and-the-tor/
You have to ask, where are all the chiropractic regulators? Why aren’t they stopping this as it spreads around the globe?
Thinking Chiro wrote: “Have you bothered to read my posts? I recently hammered to critics with references to 74 articles and they all went mute!”
Well, I do apologize, TC. I was a bit hasty in judging you. You did put a lot of work into your post with the many references, so I take back the part about all of your posts as being “fawning”. And while you are here, Blue Wode and EE are still out there, bitter as can be, actively trying to create a world free of chiropractic health care and all non-drug approaches to health care and have you unemployed as quickly as possible. Too, bad, eh?
Yep, he is like a petulant attention seeking child!
it is most frustrating that a minority of chiropractors are trashing what is a fantastic profession! I agree that many claims have little or no evidence – with the ‘Tic’ groups main argument to this being that there is also no evidence proving it doesn’t work!
Chiropractic will never be fully accepted until all those under the title unite with an agreed regulation as to what we an help – note I am NOT saying cure! We are MSK specialists, not medical doctors. There will be no future for chiropractic if the extremist minority are allowed to continue running around making unfounded claims
Student chiropractor wrote: “it is most frustrating that a minority of chiropractors are trashing what is a fantastic profession!”
But are they a minority, or simply representative of a silent majority? You don’t seem to be aware of a large survey of (and by) chiropractors which was carried out in 2003 (McDonald W, Durkin K, Iseman S, et al, ‘How Chiropractors Think and Practice’, Seminars in Integrative Medicine, 2004 V.2 No.3 92-98, Institute for Social Research, Ohio University) which revealed that 89.8% of chiropractors in the USA (where well over 50% of chiropractors practice) felt that spinal manipulation should not be limited to musculoskeletal conditions – a figure which appears to be supported by this 2004 survey of chiropractors in Portland, Oregon http://www.chirobase.org/02Research/laidler.html which found a 100% incidence of beliefs and practices that were unsubstantiated or clashed with established scientific knowledge. Interestingly, the McDonald survey also revealed that 9 in 10 chiropractors believed in (fictitious) subluxations, that 4 in 5 thought subluxations were involved in visceral illness, and that 2 in 10 thought they explain all of illness (so-called straight chiropractors).
A further indication that the majority of chiropractors are using spinal manipulation as a panacea can be found in research which the World Federation of Chiropractic (WFC – an association of chiropractic organisations in 85 countries) gathered during its 2004-2005 consultation on ‘The Identity of the Chiropractic Profession’. It gives valuable insight into the chiropractic profession’s perceptions of itself on an international scale. For example, not only did the consultation result in the participating chiropractors’ unanimous agreement that the most appropriate public identity for the profession within health care was “The spinal health care experts in the health care system” – a definition which clearly allows pseudoscientific chiropractic practices to continue to flourish – it also produced a document entitled “Abstracts of Previous Relevant Research” which cited 2003 McDonald et al study, and specifically mentioned the following in section E, #6:
Quote:
“Approximately 9 in 10 [USA chiropractors] confirmed that the profession should retain the term “vertebral subluxation complex” (88.1%) and that the adjustment should not be limited to musculoskeletal conditions (89.8%). Subluxation is rated as a significant contributing factor in 62.1% of visceral ailments.”
In addition to that, the results of the WFC consultation produced a chart called “Perceptions of How the General Public Perceives the Chiropractic Profession”. It illustrates the percentage of chiropractors who said that the following phrases described the profession “perfectly” (7 on a scale of 1 to 7) or almost perfectly (6):
Quote:
“Management of vertebral subluxation and its impact on general health”
– 65% of chiropractors said that the general public should perceive chiropractic that way
“Management of vertebral subluxation”
– 57% of chiropractors said that the public should perceive chiropractic that way
Those figures are supported by a 2007 survey of UK chiropractors which revealed that traditional chiropractic beliefs (chiropractic philosophy) were deemed important by 76% of respondents, with 63% considering the subluxation to be central to chiropractic intervention:
http://www.ebm-first.com/chiropractic/uk-chiropractic-issues/1188-the-scope-of-chiropractic-practice-a-survey-of-chiropractors-in-the-uk.html
Indeed, in 2010, the vitalistic Alliance of UK Chiropractors (which claims to be the largest of the four UK chiropractic associations), pressured the UK regulator, the General Chiropractic Council (GCC), into changing its former stance about there being no evidence to link chiropractic subluxations to “health concerns”. Read what the GCC had to say:
https://skepticbarista.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/subluxrevltr1.jpg
Full analyses here:
http://j.mp/1oicceP
http://skepticbarista.wordpress.com/2010/10/17/subluxations-still-no-evidence/
Student Chiropractor, do you have more recent data than those I have supplied above?
Student chiropractor wrote: “I agree that many claims have little or no evidence – with the ‘Tic’ groups main argument to this being that there is also no evidence proving it doesn’t work!”
If they can’t prove it works – and they certainly can’t prove conclusively that it’s safe (ref http://edzardernst.com/2013/06/more-on-the-risks-of-spinal-manipulation/ ) – then they can’t arrive at a responsible risk/benefit assessment. IOW, it looks like ethics are being thrown to the wind while chiropractic regulators slumber at the wheel.
Student chiropractor wrote: “Chiropractic will never be fully accepted until all those under the title unite with an agreed regulation as to what we can help”
So why wasn’t an evidence-based guideline on scope of practice, i.e. one which curtailed claims chiropractors could make and clearly stated treatments they were permitted to offer, produced prior to regulation? For example, it looks like the (premature) statutory regulation of chiropractors in the UK was a legislator-duping exercise deliberately designed by chiropractors to gain legitimacy:
Quote
“In spite of strong mutual suspicion and distrust, the profession united under a group formed specifically to pursue regulation and secured the Chiropractors Act (1994)…..Regulation for a new profession will literally ‘legitimise it’, establishing its members within the community, making them feel more valued. In turn, this brings greater opportunity for more clients and a healthier bank balance.” Michael C. Copland-Griffiths, former Chairman of the General Chiropractic Council (European Journal of Oriental Medicine, Vol.2 No.6, 2004)
Ref: Statutory Regulation — The chiropractic experience
http://web.archive.org/web/20060924183943/www.ejom.co.uk/backissues/vol2no6/feature1.html
Student chiropractor wrote: “There will be no future for chiropractic if the extremist minority are allowed to continue running around making unfounded claims”
I think you’ll find that the situation is a lot more complicated than the behaviours of an ‘extremist minority’. Here’s something to think about:
http://www.bodyinmind.org/spinal-manipulative-therapy-a-slow-death-by-data/
There will NEVER be an acceptance of chiropractic by established medicine, “student Chiro”, best you get over that. You can reference the hell out of any journal demonstrating some beneficial effects of manips/mobs, and if it is applied by a chiro, persons like this “Blue Wode” and EE will be there twisting every letter in the article to discredit it. Theses guys are after a Chiro free world. Once they achieve this, then I`m sure they will modify their stance on some of the benefits of what you do, and some of the observations seen from the results of what you, and the Physio profession will slide into your chair and say “we are the ones that will administer this type of care”.
You and ANY chiro are wasting you’re time logging onto this site.
Ever searched “blue wode”?? Seems to be quoting on any article around the world that discusses chiro. And always in his(or hers?) usual negative way. Seems like he/she has a full time job just doing this….makes sense?
Best you focus on you’re studies and stop wasting times of this useless blog. Best all you chiro do the same. Currently you guys are giving this site “google hits”, and Ed is laughing all the way to the bank.
it seems to me that chiropractic is not very effective as a treatment of paranoia!
Good to see a chiro student showing critical thinking.
Over the years I have noted that the more criticism that is levelled at the subluxation based chiropractors, the more they seem to think that it validates their position. To them it is all a big pharma and big medicine conspiracy to eliminate the competition, that it is a turf war. They medico’s feel threatened so they attack the “Tic” and “Tor” chiropractors and if you are a chiropractor and you question subluxation then you are a disloyal, pseudo medical traitor. This is a load of BS!
If they cherish the subluxation, then they should apply the blowtorch of critical, well designed research to put it to the test and validate it beyond any reasonable doubt. They have had 100+ years to do just that with zero results except for case studies that are no better than anecdote and the pleural of anecdote does not equal evidence!
Now it is the time of chiropractic researchers that are leading the profession in the right direction. Here are some of my favourites (Apologies if your not on the list):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Leboeuf-Yde%20C
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Giles+LG
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Pickar+JG
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Descarreaux+M
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Walker+BF
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=French+SD
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=humphries+BK
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Kawchuk+G
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Colloca+C
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Bronfort+G
Here are some references for Student Chiropractor and Blue Wode:
A survey of wellness management strategies used by Canadian doctors of chiropractic.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21807262
Frequency of use of diagnostic and manual therapeutic procedures of the spine taught at the Canadian Memorial Chiropractic College: A preliminary survey of Ontario chiropractors. Part 1 – practice characteristics and demographic profiles
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3581001/?tool=pmcentrez&report=abstract
Frequency of use of diagnostic and manual therapeutic procedures of the spine currently taught at the Canadian Memorial Chiropractic College: A preliminary survey of Ontario chiropractors. Part 2 – procedure usage rates
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3661184/?tool=pmcentrez&report=abstract
Attitudes toward evidence-based clinical practice among doctors of chiropractic with diplomate-level training in orthopedics
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4029280/?tool=pmcentrez&report=abstract
Knowledge Transfer within the Canadian Chiropractic Community. Part 1: Understanding Evidence-Practice Gaps
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3661177/?tool=pmcentrez&report=abstract
Knowledge Transfer within the Canadian Chiropractic Community. Part 2: Narrowing the Evidence-Practice Gap
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4139759/
The Chiropractic Hospital-based Interventions Research Outcomes (CHIRO) study: a randomized controlled trial on the effectiveness of clinical practice guidelines in the medical and chiropractic management of patients with acute mechanical low back pain.
http://www.thespinejournalonline.com/article/S1529-9430%2810%2901114-9/fulltext
The Five Eras of Chiropractic & the future of chiropractic as seen through the eyes of a participant observer
http://www.chiromt.com/content/20/1/1
The John A. Sweaney Lecture: Vilamoura, Portugal, May 2007, given by Dr John A. Sweaney. Chiropractic: in pursuit of professionalism
http://www.journalchirohumanities.com/article/S1556-3499%2813%2900006-5/fulltext
Are Swiss chiropractors different than other chiropractors? Results of the job analysis survey 2009.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20937430
Practice patterns of 692 Ontario chiropractors (2000–2001)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1839931/?tool=pmcentrez&report=abstract
Chiropractic Observation and Analysis Study (COAST): providing an understanding of current chiropractic practice.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24237100
Treatment preferences amongst physical therapists and chiropractors for the management of neck pain: results of an international survey
http://www.chiromt.com/content/22/1/11/abstract
Management of patients with low back pain: a survey of French chiropractors
http://www.chiromt.com/content/22/1/13/abstract
Using that phone survey by school kids in Portland Oregon is a bit weak Blue!
Enjoy these articles Student Chiropractor!
What point are you trying to make with the above, Thinking_Chiro? What use are the above data when hundreds of thousands of patients, on a daily basis, are being duped into endless, unnecessary chiropractic ‘treatments’? Why isn’t there any standardisation? What do the regulators actually do all day?
I’ll concede that one of the papers you cited has some pertinence:
QUOTE
“This author would not be willing to wager on a unified future, but does know this: the future of the chiropractic profession is well and truly in its own hands and the time to act is now.”
Ref http://www.chiromt.com/content/20/1/1
Unfortunately, though, if chiropractors were to unite in any meaningful way, this is what they would be looking at:
QUOTE
“If a chiropractor limited his practice to musculoskeletal conditions such as simple backaches, if he were able to determine which patients are appropriate for him to treat, if he consulted and referred to medical doctors when he couldn’t handle a problem, if he were not overly vigorous in his manipulations, if he minimized the use of x-rays, and if he encouraged the use of proven public health measures, his patients would be relatively safe. But he might not be able to earn a living.”
Ref. Spine Salesmen’ chapter of the book, The Health Robbers: A Close Look At Quackery In America. The entire chapter is posted here http://www.chirobase.org/12Hx/hr76.html and is well worth a read.
In essence, with or without reform, the future for chiropractic is looking bleak. Indeed, given the content and title of this blog post (The relentless demolition of chiropractic’s reputation by chiropractors), its implosion seems to be underway.
A vocal minority is the loudest. Some of us practicing chiropractors are aware of our professions, and its limitations. Chiropractic is an alternative medicine, and we highly encourage our clients to seek for the approval of their physicians first before visiting us. We cannot diagnose diseases, nor treat it, we just relieve symptoms or anomalies that are physiologically possible to maintain.
vocal yes
but minority???
I think previous comments have shown that, in fact, it still is the majority.
The majority of studies with the exception of the WFC study put the subbies consistently at around 15-20%. That is 20% way too many in my book! The critics focus on the 20%, as they should, while I circulate and interact with the majority, different perspectives!
Your two quotes are good ones Blue. The first I whole heartedly agree with. The second is interesting as it seems to assume that the profession is restricted to the 10% of the population that chiro’s usually see. I focus on working with doctors within the system and see patients from 100% of the population. I’m not even competing with other chiro’s for the meagre 10% and there is a lot of work out there as the medico’s do not handle chronic back pain very well, and are happy to off load those frustrating patients. Its about positioning myself as part of the solution!
Implosion may or may not happen, but I think the profession has reached a tipping point, where as the first quote say says “the time to act is now” and this is happening and is gathering momentum. Does this mean open warfare, vigorous debate, legislative change or a schism within the profession? The subluxation chiropractors here talk about “unity with diversity”, which is another way of saying business as usual and leave us alone. This is not going to happen in the rapidly changing health environment. Interesting times!!!
You can see, Thinkin’ Chiro, that Blue Wode will only like you when you are driving a bus or working for the post office, or worse, become a member of the physical therapist technician trades. Not that there is anything wrong with that. They do a great job. Being subservient to the orthopedics provides a salary. Many chiropractic doctors even employ them and many physios are very compassionate.
It doesn’t matter how many references you cite, in his book reform is a euphemism for extermination. Don’t forget it. Blue Wode has an useemly habit of turning this place, and others, into a link farm for cloaked, unreliable cites run by his ‘anti-everything that’s not drugs’ pals. He is at this all day on Twitter, among other places on the web. He has been doing this a long time. One would think that not spending that time with the family, kids, wife (if she is still in the picture) would weigh heavy on one’s mind. But to each his own. He has been predicting the end of chiropractic health care for decades as well as the end of the chiropractic profession. Sorry to disappoint.
We will be around for a long time. Long after we are all gone from here. Drug-free approaches to health is the way to go and has been for thousands of years. Chiropractic is expanding to many other countries and will continue to do so. So, brother, be grateful that you are in a profession that doesn’t kill 800,000 people a year from preventable errors. Just sayin’.
SkepdocProf wrote: “You can see, Thinkin’ Chiro, that Blue Wode will only like you when you are driving a bus or working for the post office, or worse, become a member of the physical therapist technician trades.”
That’s not true and you know it, SkepdocProf. Much to your chagrin, Thinking_Chiro and I have a strong, mutual respect for each other.
SkepdocProf wrote: “Drug-free approaches to health is the way to go and has been for thousands of years.”
So what interventions do you propose we use to protect people from rabies, hepatitis B, typhoid, tetanus, diphtheria, polio, malaria, yellow fever, etc.? Chiropractic adjustments? Homeopathic remedies? Acupuncture sessions? BTW, SkepdocProf, you seem to have forgotten all about this:
http://edzardernst.com/2014/03/chiropractors-continue-to-burry-their-heads-in-the-sand/#comment-55595
and this:
http://edzardernst.com/2014/06/the-worlds-leading-homeopathy-portal-promotes-homeopathic-cure-for-cancer/#comment-59948
And still no reply. When the questions get difficult, he/she/it disappears.
@ Frank,
Did you ever find any evidence for spinal manipulation for thoracic spine pain?
@AN Other
You’ll need to remind me: what claim did Frank make about spinal manipulation for thoracic spine pain that you’d like him to defend??
@ Alan
Frank described a time when he had thoracic spine pain and then went to a physio, who then performed spinal manipulation. Frank described that he felt better after this.
I asked Frank to find if there is any evidence for spinal manipulation when treating thoracic spine pain.
Frank did find research for spinal manipulation of the thoracic spine but that was for treating neck pain not thoracic spine pain.
The point i was making to Frank that a practitioner can sometimes use a form of treatment that has no evidence in helping with a particular musculoskeletal condition. I would imagine in Franks case, absence of evidence doesn’t mean evidence of absence. What i hoped Frank would learn is that even though he got better, was the physio right to use a treatment that has no evidence of helping with the complaint he was presenting with. This would be an example of clinical experience being used over clinical evidence.
Hope that helps 🙂
An Other,
You are a contrarian, so it doesn’t matter what is said.
@ Frank
A contrarian in a scientific debate is someone who is arguing against a general scientific consensus. Considering i am arguing for evidence based medicine can you explain how i am i am going against this general scientific consensus?
Therefore either you do not know what the meaning of contrarian or you are using this term to avoid answering a question.
Also scientific contrarianism is frequently referred to, favorably, as skepticism – does this mean you think i am being skeptical?
Looking forward to your reply to all the questions i have stated
Is SkepDocProf this fellow;
https://www.facebook.com/Dr.LiamSchubel
https://twitter.com/LiamSchubel
If so, he is more concerned about having an unworthy “Dr’ before his name and making money from the poor fools who he swindles. A thoroughly unlikeable and unethical person.
The percentage of “chiropractors who base their practice on subluxation” is unknown and would depend on how questions are phrased. But they are not the only ones who are problematic. High percentages of others rely on muscle testing for diagnosis (“applied kinesiology”), prescribe (and often sell) inappropriate dietary supplements, use quack gadgets, oppose vaccination, and do dozens of other unscientific things. Based on chiropractic surveys and other sources, it appears to me that a large majority do one or more of these things. There’s also the problem in the US that many patients are persuaded to enter contracts for 6-12 months of adjustments, most of which are not needed. So even though some chiropractors may offer something useful, consumers who might benefit can have a difficult time locating them.
In reply to SkepdocProf:
Blue Wode only uses ammunition supplied by the chiropractic profession itself. If the profession is to mature, then it needs to look critically at what it does and if it is found wanting then change, thats progress.
Blue wode wrote: “Much to your chagrin, Thinking_Chiro and I have a strong, mutual respect for each other.”
Well, yes and no. Based on your compulsive obsession with full-time anti-chiropractic extremism, it is evident that he respects you, but you respect him only if he converts to your religion. If he denounces the chiropractic health care profession and becomes an employee of the ex-shrink-master himself, Stephen Barrett, like Prestone Long or Sam Homola, and devotes all of his energy to creating a world free of chiropractic health care once and for all, like you have, then you will have that “strong, mutual respect” for him. Until then…. Nah!
BTW Isn’t it odd, Blue, that you have never referred to him as doctor? Odd isn’t it? Where is the respect, Blue?
@ SkepdocProf
It’s good to see that I’m on the right track with my comments here (i.e. continuously highlighting the shortcomings of your profession until things are tightened up). Your ugly comments in response only serve to prove that the title of this blog post by Professor Ernst is absolutely spot on.
“Based on your compulsive obsession with full-time anti-chiropractic extremism, it is evident that he respects you, but you respect him only if he converts to your religion.”
Is there any chance you could abandon logical fallacies, such as this ad hominem, and actually write something that addressed the topic of discussion?
In reply to SkepdocProf:
I do not want the title Dr and I do not use it as it only creates confusion in patients and I have not earned it! Doing a PhD is of interest to me! We’ll see!
As for religion, here is a recent chiropractic article you will enjoy:
http://www.chiromt.com/content/22/1/36/abstract
You gotta love that title!
Or how about this gem:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1208927/?tool=pmcentrez&report=abstract
Written by chiropractors who are looking critically at what we do!
One thing I have noted over the years is that Philosophy as it is applied by the chiropractic philosophers is blind unquestioning adherence to an outdated dogma. If you question subluxation theory they get angry and resort to personal attack.
This definition of philosophy is the best I have seen in a while:
“The presentation of opinions, theories, or advice isn’t philosophy, no matter what the content. Doing philosophy involves thinking about things in a certain (rigorous, questioning) way, offering arguments for one’s ideas, meeting arguments against them, and being prepared to change one’s mind.”
Blue and I share this philosophy of critical thinking. I enjoy fencing with Blue and I would rather riposte with research articles and references than Ad Hominem attacks. Additionallly, all these exchanges become part of the public record which pushes the reform process forward.
Having read this I thought it was rather enlightening. I appreciate you finding the time and energy to put this article together.
[Link to website disabled by Admin – the chiropractic business being advertised is in Australia but the commenter was posting from an IP address in Bangladesh.]